Main Menu

So... Arnold

Started by GDS_Starfury, March 08, 2023, 07:22:42 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Ubercat

Quote from: W8taminute on March 16, 2023, 08:56:27 PMKind of back on topic. 

All humans from all tribes and groups have at one point or another hated someone or some group.  But history is full of examples, even today right now, of anti-Semitism being the kind of hate that goes beyond irrational and all explanation.  It not only borderlines 100% pure evil, it exceeds it by leaps and bounds.

So if you think about why this group of people in the whole world receive such hatred that is beyond explanation what does that say to you?  Israel was attacked on day 1 of it's creation, in fact within hours of it's creation.  And this happened not very long after the Holocaust.  You would think the world would have been accommodating but no.  Instead out right violence and war. 

I used to think that persecution of the Jews was somehow unique in it's extremity. In fact, this posed the most difficulty for my atheism. As it turns out Jews are not alone in being targeted with violence. I recently learned the concept of the middleman minority, a status that breeds distrust and hostility. Often the majority population gains indispensable benefits from dealing with the MM but resents them anyway.

There are many examples of other middleman minorities receiving the same hate: the Chinese in SE Asia, Igbos in Nigeria, Indians and Lebanese in different parts of Africa, Koreans in American ghettos, etc. I think that the difference in visibility and scale can be attributed to the fact that the Jews were the middlemen for Europe. We're all probably much more familiar with European history then, say, Nigerian. Who better than a powerful industrialized nation to take hate to such a level as the holocaust. It happened in Germany, but with different circumstances it could have happened anywhere.
"If you have always believed that everyone should play by the same rules and be judged by the same standards, that would have gotten you labelled a radical 50 years ago, a liberal 25 years ago, and a racist today."

- Thomas Sowell

Tripoli

Quote from: JasonPratt on March 20, 2023, 07:57:14 AMThe Irish might come closest to a historical parallel, although they owe part of their cultural survival to a wholesale acceptance of Jewish influence and principles in modifying their culture (even though not always accepting Jewish people).

Sheer stubbornness either way, definitely helps!  :ThumbsUp:

...

I agree, the Irish are possibly the closest analogy to the Jews regarding cultural survival, but even they run a far distant second.  Consider that despite being persecuted, the Irish always had Ireland, the actual piece of ground, and that their colonization under England occurred mostly in the last 500 years  The Jews were effectively destroyed by the Romans in 70-130 AD (although a remanent continued to reside in the Holy Land), so for 1900 years they had no homeland to tie their culture to.  Yet, they endured.  I don't think there is a historical parallel to this.
"Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?" -Abraham Lincoln

W8taminute

Quote from: Ubercat on March 20, 2023, 08:05:19 AMI used to think that persecution of the Jews was somehow unique in it's extremity. In fact, this posed the most difficulty for my atheism. As it turns out Jews are not alone in being targeted with violence.

Yes I can totally see how thinking the persecution of the Jews as being unique in it's extremity could pose difficulty for atheism.  Let me postulate:

If there really is a G and His chosen people are the Jews then hatred for Jews in a lot of cases borders demonic inspired if not actually demonic.  Why?  Because the enemy does not want G's plan to succeed. 

For atheism to work the hatred for Jews must be reduced to a common denominator in which all men hate each other and it happens all over the place.  The Jews are no different.  Then G and the enemy can completely be removed from the equation.

Killing and hate crimes are inspired by the enemy because the enemy hates mankind period.  But with the chosen people he really hates them for the reasons I mentioned before. 

Quote from: Ubercat on March 20, 2023, 08:05:19 AMWho better than a powerful industrialized nation to take hate to such a level as the holocaust. It happened in Germany, but with different circumstances it could have happened anywhere.

Pol Pot committed a holocaust on his own people, so did Josef Stalin, so did many others past and present.

The difference is with the Not See Holocaust of the Jews the target didn't have to be a resident of the fatherland.  They just had to be Jews and exist which means worldwide.  Now that's sickeningly evil that goes beyond killing dissidents and intelligentsia. 
"You and I are of a kind. In a different reality, I could have called you friend."

Romulan Commander to Kirk

Sir Slash

The closest modern-day equivalent I can think of right off hand is Rwanda in the 90's with the Serbs in Kosovo a close second. Maybe I've missed some though.
"Take a look at that". Sgt. Wilkerson-- CMBN. His last words after spotting a German tank on the other side of a hedgerow.

Pete Dero

Quote from: W8taminute on March 20, 2023, 10:36:14 AMFor atheism to work the hatred for Jews must be reduced to a common denominator in which all men hate each other and it happens all over the place.  The Jews are no different.  Then G and the enemy can completely be removed from the equation.

I am an atheist and I don't hate any group of people, and as far as I know that is the case with most atheists. 
It is my impression that most hate against religious groups is by other religious groups.

W8taminute

Quote from: Pete Dero on March 20, 2023, 01:34:50 PMI am an atheist and I don't hate any group of people, and as far as I know that is the case with most atheists. 
It is my impression that most hate against religious groups is by other religious groups.

Hate, like love, is a universal language.  Unfortunately some people would rather hate than love. 

I'm glad you are not hateful, neither am I.  But I will admit, sometimes I make mistakes and feel bad but in general I do not hate. 
"You and I are of a kind. In a different reality, I could have called you friend."

Romulan Commander to Kirk

Silent Disapproval Robot

I'm an atheist and I hate just...all kinds of people.

Right now, my ire is mainly directed towards the dipshit cyclists who infest the road I take to work.  They wear matching jerseys and they always ride 4 abreast and take up the whole road and refuse to give way. 

Gusington



слава Україна!

We can't live under the threat of a c*nt because he's threatening nuclear Armageddon.

-JudgeDredd

Pete Dero

Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on March 20, 2023, 03:33:49 PMI'm an atheist and I hate just...all kinds of people.

Individuals : yes (and a lot) - an entire group : no

Ubercat

Quote from: Pete Dero on March 20, 2023, 01:34:50 PMI am an atheist and I don't hate any group of people, and as far as I know that is the case with most atheists. 
It is my impression that most hate against religious groups is by other religious groups.

I agree but would go further. I think the problem is ideology. Blindly followed beliefs enable all sorts of atrocities. Religions, which historically have caused the most problems, are merely ideology with a supernatural layer in my view. The 20th century with the rise of Communism and Fascism has demonstrated that you don't need to believe in any gods to be an asshole.
"If you have always believed that everyone should play by the same rules and be judged by the same standards, that would have gotten you labelled a radical 50 years ago, a liberal 25 years ago, and a racist today."

- Thomas Sowell

FarAway Sooner

For the record, if the Jewish Space Laser is everything it's cracked up to be, it ought to be able to make the "pew pew" sound even in space.  I mean, we never had any difficulty hearing blasters firing while watching an external view of X-Wings, and the sound that Phasers made in an outside view of the Enterprise were always distinctly different than the sounds they made when heard from the inside of the ship...

Uber's notion of "the middleman minority" rings a loud bell with me.  I don't know enough Asian history to know if the Chinese (or their precedents) have been persecuted outside China in SE Asia for thousands of years or just the last few hundred. 

I also know that the "middle men victims" were often intentionally cultivated as a tool by imperial powers who needed somebody to fill the more sophisticated roles in a society where they lacked the manpower to do it themselves, but they didn't want to let any of the locals get too powerful.  The Spaniards had a long history of cultivating the Chinese as a mercantile class in the Philippines, and then turning the locals loose on the Chinese every 50 or 100 years to keep them in check. 

The survival of the Jewish people throughout recorded history is a remarkable run, given how many ethnic groups have come and gone.  I would argue that the Jews aren't nearly as monolithic a group today as some would claim, but I would also concede that doesn't make them any less Jewish.

Pete Dero

Quote from: Ubercat on March 20, 2023, 04:44:17 PMI agree but would go further. I think the problem is ideology. Blindly followed beliefs enable all sorts of atrocities. Religions, which historically have caused the most problems, are merely ideology with a supernatural layer in my view. The 20th century with the rise of Communism and Fascism has demonstrated that you don't need to believe in any gods to be an asshole.

German fascists used religion during WW2.
The Wehrmacht soldiers wore the slogan 'Gott mit uns' on their belt buckle.
People around Europe were called upon (often by priests) to go and fight with the Germans against the godless communists.

In today's Russia religion is used once again to fight the demonic nations in Europe.

JasonPratt

#72
For that matter, Stalin eventually stopped persecuting Christians for a while to bolster defense of the Motherland against the Huns.

I don't think W8 meant that atheism requires hatred in order to work, Pete; he was replying in the context of Ubercat's statement that (once upon a time) UC's main difficulty with atheism used to be the persecution of the Jews per se. (Personally I can't imagine that being any difficulty for atheism if I was an atheist, much less the main difficulty; but it's an interesting example of different people weighing different evidence differently, especially for inductive and abductive inferences. Which is worth keeping in mind for sake of charitable cooperation at least!)

The middleman persecution complex is undoubtedly correct, and understandable, in application to many groups including the Jews, and of course is not the only basis for persecution -- nor did I ever say Jews were the only persecuted group in the world. By far they are not! Christians, to give only one of many more examples, have been and still are harshly persecuted in many nations and cultures (not restricted to other Christians though that has often happened, too). I would expect there are far more groups who have been and still are persecuted in world history than those who never have been!

What makes the Jewish people ultra-rare (and perhaps unique), as I noted earlier and as Tripoli noted again in comparison with the Irish, is that they kept what amounts to a national continuity, even when they haven't had a nation (and they have had some interesting examples of temporary nations during the Middle Ages, by the way, such as on the southern coast of what is now Ukraine, and on the southern Arabian coast for a while, as well as even a new temple in a small nation across the Red Sea in the heart of what's now Ethiopia. It's pretty great getting the Crusader Kings game to spawn those, btw!  :Nerd: )

But even THAT doesn't go far enough, because their (effectively) national continuity is based on concepts and ideals which have enriched the world (in several senses of 'enriched') through being a main basis for Western Civilization, even for helping Grecian and Roman culture survive their own overthrows and extinctions -- and not only for fellow co-religionists (of the Abrahamic religious set) but for people of entirely other religions, and of no religions, and even for vivid anti-religionists. (Which is included in what I mean by the metaphor of the Space Laser.)

That is an AMAZING run. And, to tap this point again: this isn't a run based on being military winners, although they've pulled off some amazing military wins on occasion, too (however much of that was by skill, and/or luck, and/or getting support of various kinds from various places.  :whistle:  ) Usually the Jews, taking world history as a whole, have been repeated and even catastrophic losers by the world's standards. And yet also, despite being routine losers, also arguably the biggest winners in world history by proportion to their population over time. It might not even be close. It might not even be distantly close.

It is, sadly, typical human behavior (for various reasons), that when the biggest proportional success, even in helping the most other people to succeed, is combined with routine weakness and vulnerability, grateful protection and honor is NOT the usual result.  :HideEyes:  :buck2:

But I would argue it should be.

And I would at least suggest -- if only for all practical purposes! -- that any underlying reasons for such a proportionately astonishing success, across almost all of human history, should be investigated for discovery and application.


Whether that investigation would have any bearing on how to reduce human hatred of each other, which is more broadly the topic of this thread (I suppose), may remain to be seen. But if Arnold is going to bring in the Holocaust, then let us recall in relevance to who was mostly being targeted, that whatever else Hitler occasionally said about this or that religious belief, or how he used such appeals for his own power, he was adamantly opposed, and very specifically, to the Ten Commandments, which he intended to destroy out of human history forever if he could arrange it. The Ten Words certainly tended to get in the way of his regime coveting, lying, stealing, and murdering! -- among other things also relevant to the Big 10.
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

FarAway Sooner

My father's best friend, who was a fellow History of Science professor, more than once said to me as a kid, "Today, we know tons of things about the Athenians.  We know about their poetry, their art, their science, their historians.  All we know about the Spartans is that they conquered the Athenians.  So what does it mean to win a war?"


GDS_Starfury

that really depends on the time and place doesn' it.
if the Spartans didn't do what they did when the did it the Athens might not have its history.
Toonces - Don't ask me, I just close my eyes and take it.

Gus - I use sweatpants with flannel shorts to soak up my crotch sweat.

Banzai Cat - There is no "partial credit" in grammar. Like anal sex. It's either in, or it's not.

Mirth - We learned long ago that they key isn't to outrun Star, it's to outrun Gus.

Martok - I don't know if it's possible to have an "anti-boner"...but I now have one.

Gus - Celery is vile and has no reason to exist. Like underwear on Star.