Good modern naval tactics book?

CaptainKoloth · February 26, 2023, 12:09:17 PM

Hello all:

Sort of a long-winded question here which boils down to: are there any good books describing, at a super-tactical level (I'm thinking like, Dangerous Waters manual level of detail) how actual consoles on a modern naval vessel work? I'm assuming no because of classification issues.

Basically the genesis of the question was this thought process: you can get switch-for-switch accurate simulators of aircraft (e.g. DCS), tanks (e.g. Steel Beasts), trains (e.g. Train Sim World), all sorts of ground vehicles, that would to some extent let you go right off and operate a real one - pretty much everything but naval vessels. I think in part this is because all of those other vehicles can be controlled by 1-2 people, but obviously even a small naval ship has a crew of dozens. But it led to the question in my mind of, "you can learn on a computer to basically control every switch and aspect of those vehicles; to what extent is that true of naval vessels"? So that led to "how accurate IS a game like DW relative to real life", which I don't have a good handle on.

I realize such a book likely doesn't exist, but even a book about what it's like in real life, perhaps like the first answer to this Quora question, would be interesting.

Tripoli · February 26, 2023, 12:20:18 PM

Dangerous Waters was made by Sonalysts, which makes its real money off of government (and largely DoD) contracts. See https://www.sonalysts.com/what-we-do/modeling-simulation/ Because of this experience, the "buttonology" of the Dangerous Waters game is a pretty good (albeit somewhat simplified ) reflection of the real world systems the program simulates.

Toonces · March 03, 2023, 08:28:25 AM

The short answer to your question is: no, not that I'm aware of.

The longer answer is: you're on the right track that, while an F-14 has the equipment set up to be managed by 2 people, and is thus easier to simulate it close to real-life, the CIC of a warship has probably dozens of people. In my experience as a TAO there were 3 of us, just at the main TAO station. There were multiple radar stations, weapons stations, etc. Even if you could simulate all of this, I don't know why you would want to. It wouldn't be fun.

Watch a movie like The Hunt for Red October. See how many people are on the sonar station? Simulating that station 100% accurately just wouldn't be fun. Dangerous Waters gives you a good feel for the flavor of the sonar station on a submarine, but with concessions to playability.

To give you manuals for all of the electronics and weapons stations on a ship would be well in excess of 10,000 pages in my opinion. Your best bet, if you're serious about this, would be to Google search for the operator manuals for a specific system on the ship. You might be able to find some of these online. A lot of them will be classified, so that will also be an issue.

CaptainKoloth · March 03, 2023, 11:35:19 AM

Quote from: Toonces on March 03, 2023, 08:28:25 AMThe short answer to your question is: no, not that I'm aware of.

The longer answer is: you're on the right track that, while an F-14 has the equipment set up to be managed by 2 people, and is thus easier to simulate it close to real-life, the CIC of a warship has probably dozens of people. In my experience as a TAO there were 3 of us, just at the main TAO station. There were multiple radar stations, weapons stations, etc. Even if you could simulate all of this, I don't know why you would want to. It wouldn't be fun.

Watch a movie like The Hunt for Red October. See how many people are on the sonar station? Simulating that station 100% accurately just wouldn't be fun. Dangerous Waters gives you a good feel for the flavor of the sonar station on a submarine, but with concessions to playability.

To give you manuals for all of the electronics and weapons stations on a ship would be well in excess of 10,000 pages in my opinion. Your best bet, if you're serious about this, would be to Google search for the operator manuals for a specific system on the ship. You might be able to find some of these online. A lot of them will be classified, so that will also be an issue.

Wow, you were an actual TAO, so you're probably as well positioned to answer this as anyone. So something like DW then and its manual is about as close as I'll get in the civilian world to understanding the details of how those operations occur and how the ship is operated?

Toonces · March 03, 2023, 01:22:29 PM

I've looked for books similar to Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering, but for modern naval warfare and have come up blank. Hughes' Fleet Tactics is ok, but it's a very operational research/mathematical approach and isn't as user-friendly as I'd prefer.

The TAO manual I used (classified) was huge, something like 700+ pages. I don't know what a civilian equivalent would be. Honestly, the best approach to really understanding modern naval tactics would likely come from user-made guides to Harpoon, CMO, and Dangerous Waters.

That's a different question from books that describe the various stations in a ship's combat information center. Like I said before, I doubt you'll find those manuals online, but you never know. I don't think simulating a ship's CIC like the cockpit of an F-14 would be of any value outside of military training. It's just too much information for one person to handle.

Just my opinion, but I've felt for a while that Cold Waters provides a reasonably realistic approach to commanding a submarine. What I mean is that, despite the gameyness of Cold Waters, it presents you with a lot of the decisions a sub commander would have to make. I like how it streamlines all of the crew-related tasks and just presents the player with the important information, distilled to what needs to be known to make decisions. In that respect, I prefer it to Dangerous Waters, but that's just my opinion.

CaptainKoloth · March 03, 2023, 02:40:26 PM

Quote from: Toonces on March 03, 2023, 01:22:29 PMI've looked for books similar to Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering, but for modern naval warfare and have come up blank. Hughes' Fleet Tactics is ok, but it's a very operational research/mathematical approach and isn't as user-friendly as I'd prefer.

The TAO manual I used (classified) was huge, something like 700+ pages. I don't know what a civilian equivalent would be. Honestly, the best approach to really understanding modern naval tactics would likely come from user-made guides to Harpoon, CMO, and Dangerous Waters.

That's a different question from books that describe the various stations in a ship's combat information center. Like I said before, I doubt you'll find those manuals online, but you never know. I don't think simulating a ship's CIC like the cockpit of an F-14 would be of any value outside of military training. It's just too much information for one person to handle.

Just my opinion, but I've felt for a while that Cold Waters provides a reasonably realistic approach to commanding a submarine. What I mean is that, despite the gameyness of Cold Waters, it presents you with a lot of the decisions a sub commander would have to make. I like how it streamlines all of the crew-related tasks and just presents the player with the important information, distilled to what needs to be known to make decisions. In that respect, I prefer it to Dangerous Waters, but that's just my opinion.

Thanks, very interesting to get your informed perspective on it. Have been trying to decide for a while whether to try to jump in to Cold Waters or Dangerous Waters first ("so, what negative characteristics do you want your waters to have?"). I played a lot of Jane's 688 back in the day so I know what I'm in for with DW, it's more just "which might I have more fun with." And I know both have great modding communities expanding the set of playable platforms as well.

Pete Dero · March 03, 2023, 03:27:48 PM

If you decide on Dangerous Waters check out the Reinforce Alert (RA) mod that adds a lot of stuff.

Download : https://www.redrodgers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4912

For Cold Waters I would suggest the Epic Mod (https://coldhunter.ru/en/Main) that does the same for that game.

Both mods add a ton of new content.

CaptainKoloth · March 03, 2023, 04:27:55 PM

Quote from: Pete Dero on March 03, 2023, 03:27:48 PMIf you decide on Dangerous Waters check out the Reinforce Alert (RA) mod that adds a lot of stuff.

Download : https://www.redrodgers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4912

For Cold Waters I would suggest the Epic Mod (https://coldhunter.ru/en/Main) that does the same for that game.

Both mods add a ton of new content.

Yup, those were the very mods I was looking at.

GDS_Starfury · March 07, 2023, 11:08:23 PM

Toonces in his element.

Destraex · April 22, 2023, 10:00:32 PM

The Hughs book looks like a lot of fun.
https://www.amazon.com/Fleet-Tactics-Naval-Operations-Third-ebook/dp/B07ZQDBCQS/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

Tripoli · April 23, 2023, 05:53:44 AM

Fleet Tactics and Naval Operations is a standard work, and is pretty much mandatory reading. It's various editions have been continuously on the CNOs "Professional Reading List" since (I believe) it was published in the mind-1980's. Its that good. I can't comment on the 3rd edition, but the first two editions are on my library shelf, and have been so for almost 40 years.