Russia's War Against Ukraine

Started by ArizonaTank, November 26, 2021, 04:54:38 PM

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Windigo

Good points. Not that I have answers to them.
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FarAway Sooner

Arty has gotten better, Air Force still hasn't done much with the relative aerial superiority that they've had since the start of the war.

My sense is that most of the factors assigned to units in wargames (ATK, DEF, etc.) are done with the benefits of hindsight.  There is a level of granularity to real-life combat that simply can't be modeled at an appropriately detailed level for anything larger than small unit actions.

Historically, wargames avoided this problem by abstracting most of those things into a few summary values.  Those values are intended to sidestep the issue of whether a particular helicopter's mechanic just got a Dear John letter and forgot to check all the fuel hoses before his chopper lifted off.

ArizonaTank

#6497
And, the UK is planning to send depleted uranium rounds for the Challengers.

UK Minister of Defense said on a UK Government website:
"alongside our granting of a squadron of Challenger 2 main battle tanks to Ukraine, we will be providing ammunition including armour piercing rounds which contain depleted uranium."

She said the rounds "are highly effective in defeating modern tanks and armoured vehicles."

We know its a real quote because of the egregious misspelling of "armor."

Putin - not happy

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/putin-russia-will-respond-accordingly-if-ukraine-gets-depleted-uranium-shells/ar-AA18UmiF?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f1990c3a427b4966b7aaec2cf2c984b3&ei=25
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Gusington

Can Poland successfully fight an offensive war to help get Russia out of Ukraine with limited (maybe Baltic) NATO support? I'm getting dizzy.


слава Україна!

We can't live under the threat of a c*nt because he's threatening nuclear Armageddon.

-JudgeDredd

Gusington



слава Україна!

We can't live under the threat of a c*nt because he's threatening nuclear Armageddon.

-JudgeDredd

GDS_Starfury

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 21, 2023, 02:52:15 PMRussian Marines assault on the outskirts of Vuhledar. That artillery around the 6:30 mark is landing dangerously close.




to bad it wasnt a direct hit.  also not seeing much assaulting going on.
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JasonPratt

At this point, it may be an open question whether White Russia stays teamed with Russia, or sides with Poland. Even the current Belarus government might decide they would prefer to be tyannical monsters in charge of their own country rather than pawns of Putin.

Then Lithuania teams up with Poland, and Ukraine gladly grants its western portions under Polish reconstruction management on lease or something, and the Polish Imperial Confederation Or The Equivalent Thereof rises again! --- seems like a good HOI scenario to attempt!

Hopefully this time without a Parliament which would be mocked by Mark Twain for its totally incompetent self-contradictory impotence.

(....but seriously, Byelo might decide it's better to become the new evil Switzerland as a neutral borderland, than to be constantly wondering when Putin or his successor will roll up and ask for all the keys to the place.)
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Gusington



слава Україна!

We can't live under the threat of a c*nt because he's threatening nuclear Armageddon.

-JudgeDredd

Crossroads

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MengJiao

#6504
Quote from: Gusington on March 21, 2023, 07:29:33 PMCan Poland successfully fight an offensive war to help get Russia out of Ukraine with limited (maybe Baltic) NATO support? I'm getting dizzy.

  I would think the Polish response logic goes:
1) we would like to stop the Russians and Belarusians before they mass on the Polish border
2) better to have a complex engagement on enemy ground than a simple getting clobbered in Poland
3) Ukraine and Belarus could be areas where the locals are somewhat anti-Russian
4) THEREFORE
5) whatever else happens, if Russians start massing in Belarus and/or Ukrainian forces get significantly overwhelmed
6) we advance to a stop line as far east as possible and get ready to start fighting there
7) is this an offensive?  It might be sort of a pre-emptive stop line or something
8) anyway, I doubt the Poles are going to sit tight while large forces approach their borders and/or
start blowing things up in Poland

Hmmm: PS:  this also suggests another Russian blunder, a deeper one in terms of how people will think of
deterence.  Since basically, Ukraine did everything they could to avoid provoking the Russians AND THE RUSSIANS STILL ATTACKED them, this means countries like Poland that might have thought the safest course was to lay low and hope the Russians go away now have no choice but to conclude there's no point in not taking all defensive or offensive measures because the Russians are likely to attack no matter what you do -- so go ahead and be pre-emptive and put up a stop line; at least when the Russians attack they will have farther to go before they start exporting your children.

Gusington

^NATO membership still keeps the Russians at bay. But do the Poles, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, etc. feel threatened enough to strike first despite their NATO membership?


слава Україна!

We can't live under the threat of a c*nt because he's threatening nuclear Armageddon.

-JudgeDredd

ArizonaTank

Quote from: Crossroads on March 22, 2023, 05:53:34 AMSo maybe those Leopard 1s being sent to Ukraine will slot right into the MBT ecosystem there.


Quote from: Crossroads on March 22, 2023, 05:53:34 AMSo maybe those Leopard 1s being sent to Ukraine will slot right into the MBT ecosystem there.

https://twitter.com/kromark/status/1638470795100823552


So, how many T-55s will it take to take on a Leopard II? a Challenger? or an M1?

Maybe that is no longer a hypothetical question.
Johannes "Honus" Wagner
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Pete Dero

Quote from: ArizonaTank on March 22, 2023, 08:20:58 AMSo, how many T-55s will it take to take on a Leopard II? a Challenger? or an M1?

Maybe that is no longer a hypothetical question.

Didn't M1's take on T-72's in Iraq ?  Not really a balanced engagement. 


But if you believe Russian propaganda M1's are easily defeated by T-55's.

https://tass.com/defense/1567245   (TASS is a Russian 'news' agency)

Abrams tanks repeatedly demonstrated their vulnerability during the hostilities in Iraq, the expert pointed out. "As the Iraq combat experience shows, they went up in flames. The tank turret was pierced by a 100mm armor-piercing blunt nose projectile fired by a T-55 tank. There were instances when Abrams vehicles were struck by automatic guns of both Bradley and our BMP-2 infantry fighting vehicles," he said.

Instances are also known when the American tank was destroyed by the first Soviet modifications of T-72 tanks firing old shells "that were withdrawn from operational use even before the Abrams concept was devised," Suvorov said.

The expert also pointed to the instances when Abrams tanks were wiped out by RPG-7 anti-tank grenade launchers.

The American tank almost has no chances, if it engages in a duel with Russian tanks, the expert said.   :ROFL:

"If an Abrams emerges at a long distance, a T-72 or a T-90 crew will fire an anti-tank missile and we can say that the Abrams will even have no chance to fire a shot as its range of fire won't allow it to do that," he explained.


MengJiao

Quote from: Gusington on March 22, 2023, 08:15:22 AM^NATO membership still keeps the Russians at bay. But do the Poles, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, etc. feel threatened enough to strike first despite their NATO membership?

 Well, I kinda suspect, that the calculus of deterrence has changed.  Before Russia more or less unprovoked attacked Ukraine, I think most nations would think NATO would deter the Russians.  After Russia's unprovoked attack on Ukraine, places like Poland may be thinking -- why wait until its too late?  Better get your own deterrence running strong and maybe even pre-empt any Russian moves in your direction because who knows what the Russians will do?  better safe than sorry.

Gusington

^Such a delicate balance. When does deterrence turn into aggression?


слава Україна!

We can't live under the threat of a c*nt because he's threatening nuclear Armageddon.

-JudgeDredd