"Six Days in October" -- Game Time Is...

Started by Cyrano, October 15, 2016, 11:18:41 PM

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JasonPratt

ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

JasonPratt

Hm, if anything I would have thought my instructions were too detailed. ;)

Cyrano was a little vague about what we needed to do to win, but I passed along and tried to emphasize what I had been told: find and ruin the Prussians off the field; get units off the map on the road to Berlin; protect our LoCs.
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

JasonPratt

Reluctant to be Nappy -- eh, true, but that was mainly for two reasons: (1) I didn't think it would be fun for the other guys if I simply dictated everything Imperially; and (2) if we spread for a knock on all doors strategy (not my original plan, btw), then at least half the French forces will be far out of communication with me. They HAVE TO BE operating on their own recognizance (with their own chain of command). Note that West Wing didn't hear from us for a long time, partly for this reason. Neither however did we hear from them for about half the game! (This didn't encourage me to send them updates, since I didn't know for sure if our courier paths were compromised.)

Lost Bernadotte -- only temporarily when I hadn't heard from him on his way to Saalfield, simply because I didn't receive couriers from him on his progress. Once he got there he was doing pretty much what the plan involved, and I knew he was there all the time. He might have scouted north a little faster, but eh, it was within his purview. I have no complaints. FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF NO FOG and from the perspective of not having the context of the plan, it looks weird. Within context he's doing his job.  O0

(I did lose track of a couple of detached divisions late in the game, and two corps late in the game once I started receiving no couriers from them. Well, of course, if I get no couriers then I lose my only way of 'seeing' anything. That's part of the game, and I worried about them. I was a little worried about Bern's advance, too, for the same reason, until I started receiving couriers from him. From his perspective, everything was fine and he was on his way, so there was no reason to burden the umpire by sending a courier off explaining the status quo is quo-ing along.)


Murat living 14 hours in the past: that was fully and entirely expected, and why we set up a plan that would not only give everyone something important to do, but which would allow West Wing to operate without my oversight at all.

Now, I don't know about the historical Jena battle but I know Nappy liked to Grande Armee up into a giant multi-corps deathstack (with short interior lines of communication as his advantage) and basically Godzilla his way into enemy territory, carrying enough supplies with him that he didn't have to worry about the enemy screwing him over with a counter-blitz, due to his relatively short campaigns and goals. (Plus the freakish superpower of his army panicked everyone into trying to stop it rather than being clever and going for the umbilical. The Corsican Ogre was "the Ogre" from the old board game. ;) ) That wasn't my original plan either, partly because I don't know how to command that type of force, and partly because Cyrano emphasized that we would have problems from LoCs being compromised (so I couldn't expect to transform us into Gamera and turtle our mobile fort and its supplies into enemy territory.) But anyway, West Wing did what they were supposed to do, and caught a Prussian corps out of phase with its allies, and then... well, more on that later when the next video eps hit. But I have no complaints, they followed the plan with adjustments on the fly.
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

Cyrano

That I completely get.

Listening to what I said, I realize I didn't quite hit the mark, at least re: "being" the commander.

It's a hard enough thing to do when everyone is face-to-face as is the case at Origins for the Command Exercises.

It's a real hoot when everyone is miles upon miles away using only e-mail!

Sergeant at Arms of La Fraternite des Boutons Carres

One mustachioed, cigar-chomping, bespectacled deity, entirely at your service.

You didn't know? My Corps has already sailed to Berlin. We got there 3 days ago and we've been in the Tiergarten on the piss ever since. -- Marshal Soult, October 1806

Iconoclast

#619
Hello,

I have noted that writing and defining Intents has been talked about in the (very interesting) GrogCast.

I have a humble Youtube Channel where I recently uploaded the first part of my "decision making in wargaming" series. The intent is, to some degree, topic in the "mission analysis" section (see timestamps in description)



Maybe some of you find it interesting.

Cheers,

A
Wer seinen Kinderglauben sich bewahrt, in einer reinen und unbefleckten Brust, und gegen das Gelächter einer Welt zu leben wagt, wie er als Kind geträumt, - bis auf den letzten Tag: Das ist ein Mann!

James Sterrett


Hatricvs

Listened to the latest episode of the Grogcast last night all about this Kriegspeile and it was really great to get to hear some of the voices behind the commanders in the game. It was also very interesting to hear that we all had very similar issues and confusions with regard what to do and how to do it and just what did victory look like! Really interesting to hear everyone's views on that one!

I was also Really excited to hear that there will be another Kriegspeile planned for July 2018; battlefield yet to be confirmed. As stated previously I was a newb to Kriegspeile and was really grateful to be able to take the opportunity to be a part of this amazing experience. It is something I have always wanted to do and it was a pleasure to be part of and, like others, discovering the realisation of just how much fun it all actually is.

I would dearly love to be part of another campaign if Jim can put up with a Brit messing around with his game and causing issues with time differences in the dispatch and receiving of orders and reports. If you do let me play again Jim, maybe this time I could just command a corps or division instead of being the so-called Commander-in-Chief of the army; I think I might be more comfortable in that type of role!

Hatricvs

Listening how others saw the objectives I have to agree that it was not easy but also like Jason I thought that I had imparted the basis of what we were trying to do. For me I was really hoping there was some time limit basis to victory....hence why I kept banging on about the Russians however unlikely or improbability their intervention would ever have been. The supply issue is of interest but to be honest I gave up so much land, The Grande Armee were never going to be in a situation where they would be short of bratwurst, cheese and beer!

panzerde

I think it's a challenge for folks not used to the vagueness of objectives and directions in Kriegsspiel specifically and this period in general to adjust. There's also a difference between tactical objectives and operational objectives, with the latter often being more broadly defined.


In many games, the historical outcomes are often set as the objectives/victory conditions for the game. This makes a lot of sense for a game. It's tough to play a game if you can't clearly identify who won. Kriegsspiel isn't really a game, so much as it is a simulation of war. Victory conditions on actual battlefields are often not clear, and they are certainly never laid out the way they are in a game. Rather, commanders have missions to carry out, and some general system for doing so, in a way that attempts to restrict actions to what is actually possible - even at the expense of playability.


I don't think Jason or Hatricvs need to be "defending" their actions. They did what they did, to the best of their understanding of their roles. Neither had been in those roles before and it's tough to do. Really tough. I don't think most people understand how, even today with all of the technology we have just how difficult it is to get a group of people to carry out any task effectively. Leaders are often not great at defining mission in terms that are easily understood. People do a terrible job of listening and paying attention. They don't ask good questions to clarify things. In process, people are terrible at reporting what they're doing with any accuracy.


That's not just Kriegspiel, that's life.


The question for each of us is: "Did I understand my mission?" If the answer is "not very well" then why? What did you do about that? For the army commanders, the question is "How well did I understand my war aims?" and "How well did I translate those into specific objectives and missions for my subordinates?"


It is important to remember that Kriegsspiel was first conceived as a learning tool. Von Reiswitz doesn't care if you have fun!  ;D


Fortunately, for some crazy people it is fun. But for it to be fun you really have to give up some expectations that are tied to games that are designed to be games, rather than training tools. In the case of the Flight of the Eagle system there is perhaps some more attempt toward playability and fun, but the scale of the game lends itself more toward "war aims" than it does specific and well articulated victory conditions.


Cyrano has not let us know who "won" yet - but to some extent it doesn't matter. It's perhaps a better question for everyone to think about their perception of who won and why, based on the information they had at the end of the game. In 1806, no mustachioed, cigar-chomping, bespectacled deity made an announcement as to who "won."  Participants at Jena and Auerstadt knew what the fighting condition of the French and Prussian armies were, and where the Russians were, and that it was already October. It was obvious what the respective capabilities of Prussia and France were to carry on the war.


So, based on what we know, based on how well you, as corps and army commanders feel about how you carried out your missions, who do you think won, and why? If you aren't sure then why aren't you sure - expressed not in terms of a game (we don't know how many points we scored!) but in terms of the actual military situation as you observed it from your final positions.


The above is 90%+ of why I wargame. If I wanted easily understood, simple, explicit game mechanics and win conditions I'd go play Hanseatic Wheat Orgy or some other plagued Eurogame!
"This damned Bonaparte is going to get us all killed" - Jean Lannes, 1809

Castellan -  La Fraternite des Boutons Carres

bob48

That is very thought provoking and interesting, Doug.

"mustachioed, cigar-chomping, bespectacled deity"

OK, I lol'd at that.
'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers'

'Clip those corners'

Recombobulate the discombobulators!

JasonPratt

I lol'd at Hanseatic Wheat Orgy. HOW DID IT TAKE SO LONG FOR THIS THREAD TO GET TO ORGIES?!

...I'm sure that says something about the thread but, what exactly...
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

Barthheart

Quote from: panzerde on May 19, 2018, 01:11:59 PM
I think it's a challenge for folks not used to the vagueness of objectives and directions in Kriegsspiel specifically and this period in general to adjust. There's also a difference between tactical objectives and operational objectives, with the latter often being more broadly defined.


In many games, the historical outcomes are often set as the objectives/victory conditions for the game. This makes a lot of sense for a game. It's tough to play a game if you can't clearly identify who won. Kriegsspiel isn't really a game, so much as it is a simulation of war. Victory conditions on actual battlefields are often not clear, and they are certainly never laid out the way they are in a game. Rather, commanders have missions to carry out, and some general system for doing so, in a way that attempts to restrict actions to what is actually possible - even at the expense of playability.


I don't think Jason or Hatricvs need to be "defending" their actions. They did what they did, to the best of their understanding of their roles. Neither had been in those roles before and it's tough to do. Really tough. I don't think most people understand how, even today with all of the technology we have just how difficult it is to get a group of people to carry out any task effectively. Leaders are often not great at defining mission in terms that are easily understood. People do a terrible job of listening and paying attention. They don't ask good questions to clarify things. In process, people are terrible at reporting what they're doing with any accuracy.


That's not just Kriegspiel, that's life.


The question for each of us is: "Did I understand my mission?" If the answer is "not very well" then why? What did you do about that? For the army commanders, the question is "How well did I understand my war aims?" and "How well did I translate those into specific objectives and missions for my subordinates?"


It is important to remember that Kriegsspiel was first conceived as a learning tool. Von Reiswitz doesn't care if you have fun!  ;D


Fortunately, for some crazy people it is fun. But for it to be fun you really have to give up some expectations that are tied to games that are designed to be games, rather than training tools. In the case of the Flight of the Eagle system there is perhaps some more attempt toward playability and fun, but the scale of the game lends itself more toward "war aims" than it does specific and well articulated victory conditions.


Cyrano has not let us know who "won" yet - but to some extent it doesn't matter. It's perhaps a better question for everyone to think about their perception of who won and why, based on the information they had at the end of the game. In 1806, no mustachioed, cigar-chomping, bespectacled deity made an announcement as to who "won."  Participants at Jena and Auerstadt knew what the fighting condition of the French and Prussian armies were, and where the Russians were, and that it was already October. It was obvious what the respective capabilities of Prussia and France were to carry on the war.


So, based on what we know, based on how well you, as corps and army commanders feel about how you carried out your missions, who do you think won, and why? If you aren't sure then why aren't you sure - expressed not in terms of a game (we don't know how many points we scored!) but in terms of the actual military situation as you observed it from your final positions.


The above is 90%+ of why I wargame. If I wanted easily understood, simple, explicit game mechanics and win conditions I'd go play Hanseatic Wheat Orgy or some other plagued Eurogame!

All well and good Doug... if you know what type of simulation Kriegsspiel is... I think most of us playing have never ever done anything like this before so were not prepared for the "vagueness" ...  :timeout:
So my lack of knowledge of KS and anything Nappy hindered my understanding of how this should be done effectively.
I'm not complaining though, and my comments should not be taken as complaints at anyone but me. I had a blast learning the system but many of my actions were, in part, just taken to see what would happen and how it would happen and less for any real strategic or tactically effective outcome.

Next campaign however....  :knuppel2:

PS Still would give up all my horses for 2 2-way radios.... and a jeep... just saying...

Hatricvs

Quote from: panzerde on May 19, 2018, 01:11:59 PM
So, based on what we know, based on how well you, as corps and army commanders feel about how you carried out your missions, who do you think won, and why? If you aren't sure then why aren't you sure - expressed not in terms of a game (we don't know how many points we scored!) but in terms of the actual military situation as you observed it from your final positions.

Well I have to say my gut tells me that the French had this game. I believe Ruchel got blatted, I think Blucher took significant damage, Hohenlohe's boys took casualties and Kunheim took damage....so in casualty terms I think the Prussian's did suffer. Topographically we gave up a lot of land and I am becoming more and more certain that there may have either been a huge successful outflanking action or a breakthrough somewhere.

BUT, the most amazing thing is that I just actually do not know...I do not know what happened at all. Last I heard there were battles in the west and I could hear the guns in the far distance but I was circa ten hours away and so it became a moot point. It is going to be a blast to finally find out about all of this in the AAR reveals over the next week or so.....

Mind you I did hear of some strange accented fellows camping out north of the Elbe ....some say they were Russian others say their accents were not of the typical Slavic type. Oh well, we'll just have to wait and see!

MetalDog

I'm counting on the Russians.  Too much time passed.  Either that, or we passed a casualty threshold, triggering a win.
And the One Song to Rule Them All is Gimme Shelter - Rolling Stones


"If its a Balrog, I don't think you get an option to not consent......." - bob

James Sterrett

I tend to suspect a French win.  however, there's also the off chance the our beloved Emperor was slain, which would probably mean our defeat.