Several more CC games released at Gog. Wondering how these stack up. Modern Tactics looks tempting.
https://www.gog.com/news/release_close_combat_second_wave
Way overpriced in my opinion. Even at 50% off.
shut your whore mouth!
Panthers in the Fog is only $13.99
https://www.gog.com/game/close_combat_panthers_in_the_fog
Quote from: mirth on March 21, 2018, 02:14:39 PM
Panthers in the Fog is only $13.99
https://www.gog.com/game/close_combat_panthers_in_the_fog
I'm talking about the new releases...Cross of Iron and Modern Tactics.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 21, 2018, 02:24:41 PM
Quote from: mirth on March 21, 2018, 02:14:39 PM
Panthers in the Fog is only $13.99
https://www.gog.com/game/close_combat_panthers_in_the_fog
I'm talking about the new releases...Cross of Iron and Modern Tactics.
That was strictly for Star's benefit ;)
^ah. Yes. He is still working on the review, as I understand it.
Can't wait for that review.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on March 21, 2018, 02:11:43 PM
shut your whore mouth!
That sounds like a positive review synopsis...?
I grabbed CC3 since I never played it back in the day. After CC2 I took a break from gaming, and then when I returned there was CMx1 in all it's glory so saw no need. I put a solid 3 hours into the grand campaign last night, time just melted.
Which is recommended in order? I believe I have Gateway to Caen, which I got in a bundle.... But hey, I need more games I will probably never get to ::)
After calling 1000"s of battles in WoT, I'll never complain about CC3'S AI.
Quote from: PanzersEast on March 22, 2018, 02:48:31 PM
Which is recommended in order? I believe I have Gateway to Caen, which I got in a bundle.... But hey, I need more games I will probably never get to ::)
As a rule, the later remakes are superior (so there isn't much point buying earlier versions except for much older systems and/or to save a few bucks). And naturally this activity is preliminary marketing for the release of the new CC engine with "The Bloody First".
Sorted by war chronology then (with release dates also mentioned for comparison to newer versions of the engine), the latest versions of the games would be:
• 2007, CROSS OF IRON: because it covers so much of the Eastern Front, it tends to go earlier than the others. But it's also the only game on that front, so it kind of counts separately. Remakes CC3, and includes the older versions of campaigns without the updates.
• 2018 (unreleased yet) THE BLOODY FIRST: the brand-new Slitherine proprietary engine, I don't know how focused this game's campaign(s?) will be, but it features action in Tunisia, Husky, and Overlord.
• 2009, THE LONGEST DAY: the initial Normandy invasion (duh), remaking CC5 "Invasion Normandy" (a version of the original campaign also being included in this edition). I can confirm this runs acceptably on Win 8.1, but needs adjustment for compatibility (which my system automatically did after trying and failing to run it the first time), and it does not like running full screen. Running it in a window works fine, but the text does not scale well to higher resolutions so you're going to be squinting a lot!
• June 2014, GATEWAY TO CAEN: the British try to finally make it to Caen after the initial invasion. Not a remake of anything, and the final game on the original engine.
• 1998 CLOSE COMBAT: the original game! Operation Cobra. GoG is providing this game for free with at least some purchases of other other games.
• Nov 2012, PANTHERS IN THE FOG: the Allied breakthrough in Normandy in August after Operation Cobra. Not a remake of anything (unless part of CC1).
• 2010, LAST STAND ARNHEM: remake/update of CC2 (long regarded as the best of the series), covering Operation Market/Garden. Unlike the other updates, this does not include the older game campaign.
• 2008, WACHT AM RHEIN: remake/update of CC4, covering the Bulge. Also includes the older CC4 campaigns without the updates.
Now updated with proper release years for the games.
Note: I can't verify at the house yet, but checking the Matrix forum suggests that GATEWAY TO CAEN is indeed a remake/update of one of the LONGEST DAY campaigns (specifically the "Objective Caen" campaign, which is part of the LD grand campaign).
This suggests PANTHERS IN THE FOG is also a remake/update of part of the LD grand campaign, but I haven't verified that yet.
Note: no, PANTHERS IN THE FOG is Operation Luttich (I'm spelling that wrong I'm sure), the German counterattack in August against the flank of Patton's advance after Cobra. LONGEST DAY is strictly the Normandy invasion, starting with the paradrops in the pre-dawn hours and going until June 9th.
Consequently, GATEWAY TO CAEN is not really a remake either: it assumes that, in effect, the Allied player was also unable to take Caen (much less bypass it) during LONGEST DAY, and so several weeks later Operation Epsom is launched by Montgomery to try to finally take the city and the inland beyond it.
Thanks Jason! :bd:
Quote from: PanzersEast on March 23, 2018, 06:05:26 PM
Thanks Jason! :bd:
Note updates in my main report, a few minutes ago, just to be safe.
Not having played any of these games, which would you all recommend as the best to play?
GATEWAY TO CAEN should be the most polished experience of the original engine, and covers an important operation that doesn't get covered a lot.
LAST STAND ARNHEM is the updated remake to what was universally regarded as the best game of the first generation of the original engine.
PANTHERS IN THE FOG is another unusual battle (post-Cobra Brittany breakout endrun) that doesn't get covered a lot, but since we don't have a review of it who knows what it's like? >:D
But I haven't played the series in a while -- it's on my list of things to do this year -- and I haven't played any of these specifically yet, so I can only speak of relative quality in principles. Theoretically GtC should be the 'best' in quality, but all three use increasingly polished versions of the original engine.
Thanks Jason
Just an FYI, the Close Combat games are all discounted at GoG for their summer sale.
I actually searched this site to see what the consensus was on the CC games. I still haven't decided whether to jump in on The Bloody First, or collect a few of the cheaper, older titles.
Bloody First is a bloody mess imho Toonces. The 3D that was the poster boy feature for this title is horrible. No excuse for that. That feature would have propelled close combat into the 2020s. Instead the 3D feature is some kind of hodge podge band aided on feature. Vehicles slide around on immovable wheels like cardboard place holders and the textures and resolution while ok, is certainly a unique. But in reality I really do think it's just an 3D overlay on the old engine. That's why it has transferred so badly and feels so clunky.
I left the pictures below in their native resolution so you can really see all the dodginess.
(https://i.imgur.com/CL5DcCZ.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/lsElmVi.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/9n0Ux8s.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/TiWUEnN.png)
P.S. Have GOG partnered with EPIC games?
Have they? God I hope not.
Looks like it's just an option to connect accounts.
"New official GOG GALAXY 2.0 integration with Epic Games Store is live"
To use the new official integration, please connect your Epic Games Store account following these steps:
1. Click "Add games & friends" at the top of the "Recent" view.
2. Select "Connect platforms".
3. Find Epic Games Store in the official integration section, and click "Connect".
4. Sign in to your Epic Games Store account.
https://www.gog.com/newsletter/GALAXY_Epic_integrated_en/?track...
^You had me shit a brick there for a second.
Sorry. I loaded gog galaxy tonight and it said "we have partnered with epic games".
:buck2:
Yeah, after I bumped this thread last night I did some more researching and it sounds like The Bloody First is NOT the game to start the franchise with.
The older titles are a small buy-in, like $3-$10, so I think I'll get a few retro titles and see how it goes. Should be plenty of user-made scenarios floating around as well.
Toonces, if you are just starting then
CC5 was always the go to game for close combat fans. It has all the mods and was the last of the fully professionally developed close combat projects. I used to love the Gold, Juno, Sword mod back in the day.
Close Combat 2 was the nostalgic favourite of many because it did para drops, it was called a bridge too far. It was probably the most realistic campaign wise. The most wargamey.
Close Combat 1 had the best sounds imho and was possibly the most hard core. It had a very nice feel to it. But it is way too dated now to be very playable I would think. At least from a graphical standpoint.
Close Combat 3 had a great linear campaign that I loved because it allowed me to fiddle a lot with what units I wanted to accept into my battlegroup. Kind of the "unit collector" style of campaign. Who does not like adding more powerful tanks to their units! Of course grogs did not like this because it was less realistic. The units in the campaign were not really units but a random collection of small units cobbled together by the player.
Close Combat 4 was panned by many when it came out. I liked it though. If I had to say, I would advise this is the least popular of the original close combat games. There was an amazing mod for it though. CCIV is probably the simplest of the titles. Graphically, campaign and interface wise. It did introduce the new unit management interface that CC5 used so well.
After Close Combat 5 I they stopped developing full close combat games and the game eventually went to I think it was matrix games? Who then pumped out a lot of titles that I would consider more "based on" the older games than full games in their own right. Even Bloody First I suspect, is NOT a brand new game from the ground up with elements of the old games, but rather an old game with some band aided features tacked on.
Here is the old close combat site. Go have a gander. Last blog entry in feb 2021. I think Sulla used to run it.
http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/index.php
Here is the gold juno sword mod. Check 23:10 for a sweet panther ambush.
BTW here is the list of installable mods for close combat bloody first. I recognise the Author's name!
(https://i.imgur.com/FoQVDGw.png)
^ Hey, that's great info man! Thanks!
I'm not wed to any particular version so perhaps I'll jump in with CC5 and take it from there.
Since I have your attention, is there any advantage to the Close Combat series vs. the Combat Mission series?
The advantages of the close combat series over the combat mission series are as follows:
Close Combat points of goodness:
* Close combat does have a campaign later in cc4 and 5. By this I mean a campaign map that allows you to deploy formations as you see fit ala total war. Close Combat 1,2,3 had scenarios with casualties that carried over to the next mission. In all close combat games each individual soldier gains experience and medals over time. Gets injured etc. In combat missions the campaigns are just scenarios strung together, add to this that the after battle reports do not lend themselves to any kind of "story" if you will. They are bare bones in combat mission.
* Close combat is prettier inmho, both graphically and animation wise. Combat mission has always been clunky with the animations.
* Close combat has faster battles that happen almost right away. So you are straight into the action. Combat mission is very slow and often most of a scenario happens before combat is even joined. Combat Mission is better here from a realism perspective. But if you are looking for a quick fix. Close Combat is much better for this.
* Close Combat feels much more immersive. There is panic, their is elation, you feel what the troops feel. Much more like you are there. Combat Mission is a very sterile experience. Probably because the animations and sounds are very generic.
--------------------------------------------------
Combat Mission points of goodness
* Combat Mission has a tonne more realism in terms of exacting ballistic physics because it is 3d.
* Combat mission has a tonne more mechanical options than close combat. By that I mean you can grab panzerfausts from half tracks or button up your tank crew.
* Combat mission's spotting mechanics are waaaay more realistic than close combats. Close Combat uses borg spotting. If one unit can see an enemy then all can I believe. Even to the extent that in close combat I could roll over the map listening for mortar positions to zero in on them. In Combat Mission units use so many ways to spot (hearing, physical line of sight, delayed radio coms, listening to neighbouring units communicate targets etc) and they definitely cannot see units just because another unit can. Radio coms plays an important part in the game as does command structure coms. Close combat misses all of this. So spotting\communications are much better in combat mission.
* Combat Mission has realistic order of battles. Not only that but you generally even get all the transport equipment the real units had. Close combat assumes every unit is a hodge podge of balance and that men are already dropped off. In fact until much later than cc5 men could not be transported in vehicles.
* Larger combat mission missions are huge in scale compared to close combat. You might have 20 half tracks with troops and 20 tanks as well as recon etc
* Combat mission has more unit variety and modelling.
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ALL Combat Mission games I know of have DEMO downloads that have multiple scenarios in each!!!! You could spend a whole year just on these scenarios.
Both games are good though. Combat Mission is obviously very very expensive. A few dollars for close combat, $80 or more for a combat mission game. Combat mission though keep updating their old titles with paid patches which I really like. Close Combat has mods and so does combat mission. Although combat mission mods tend to be less impressive. Campaigns or skins. I need to get my combat mission games into steam so I will actually play them !!!!
I think it should be clarified that Matrix/Slitherine has worked hard on re-upping the old CC games, and has even introduced two new games (before Bloody First). They also made a modern game, but I don't recall anyone praising it. (It's a remake of CC: Marines, produced only for the USMC at the time.)
CC1 was already remade as CC5, if I recall correctly. CC1 doesn't seem to be available except perhaps as a used game somewhere on Ebay or whatever.
CC2 has become Last Stand Arnhem. Both are available at GoG. As noted, this focuses on Market-Garden.
CC3 has become Cross of Iron. Both are available at GoG. This covers the entire East Front war, and so is the largest and most ambitious of the games. While there is a linear campaign (Soviet or Nazi side, starting in 1943), there are multiple other campaigns, too.
CC4 has become Wacht Am Rhein. Both are available at GoG. As the name suggests, this is the Battle of the Bulge. For a long time, Wacht had the fewest updates and worked least on modern systems, but last year there were two updates and the latest was less than a month ago! (All the Matrix remake games have gotten an update on March 21st this year.)
CC5 has become The Longest Day. Both are available at GoG. This is the D-Day game.
Furthermore, Matrix/litherine produced Panthers in the Fog (review coming to Grogheads sooner or later ;) ), and Gateway to Caen. Both are post-D-Day operations, Caen being obvious, but 'the Fog' involves fighting after the Operation Cobra breakout as Patton races to France's West Coast. As far as I know, Fog is the only game anywhere that focuses on this crucial battle for the West.
The Bloody First is definitely not a remake of an earlier game, as it's intended to follow one Division (US 1st Division, the Big Red One) throughout the war in multiple theaters from North Africa to the August 1944 breakouts in Normandy. It's a linked campaign with 11 operations, much like the classic Panzer General campaigns; you manage your forces but not a campaign map. (The other six games offer a campaign map to manage resources and sector battles on.) You could say that the Fog acts as a sequel, however, since Bloody ends with Operation Cobra.
Chronologically, then, the games would be the Bloody First (but its idea of a campaign is more linear); the Longest Day; Fog and Caen (more or less simultaneously); Last Stand Arnhem; and Wacht Am Rhein; with Cross of Iron having multiple campaigns stretching before and after this sequence.
For content, Cross of Iron would be the largest for the money spent.
^ This all exactly the information I am looking for. Thanks fellas!
Quote from: Toonces on June 13, 2021, 02:47:20 PM
^ This all exactly the information I am looking for. Thanks fellas!
I should add that I might as well be completely ignorant of the current state of mods for this system. I recall once upon a time, CC3 was well known to have the most mods (having come out earlier than the later ones, duh ;) ), but would that still be true? -- and how would that apply to Cross of Iron (the remake/update at Matrix)? And quantity doesn't necessarily mean also the best quality.
Another major difference between close combat and combat mission is that because combat mission has communication realistically implemented, they also modelled order delays. Different communication methods take time to happen and then once the info is in the squad leader or above's hands it takes time for them to organise and carry out those orders. So sometimes as the player you wonder if your orders had any effect and then all of a sudden the men start moving about.
Close combat is just you as the top down BORG commander giving orders that are instantly carried out. The same as steel division 2.
As for Bloody First not being a remake. I was referring to the baseline code for movement, AI etc (I suspect those were just copy paste), graphics, pathing and other mechanical improvements. Not the theatre and subject matter.
Ah, got it!
The command-timing point is a very important difference in the games, I agree. I generally like CM more than CC, although of course CC has had a campaign layer to manage the battles with since way back in CC2, which CM has never had and probably never will. (That's what Graviteam is for, heyo! >:D )
Which reminds me that the Command Ops 2 games (and their predecessors) are like Close Combat on steroids (including order delays and intel-report delays and variances) -- though again without campaigns really.
Command Ops is more operational level rather than tactical level, isn't it?
Command ops can be tactical but it's a counter pusher game. Not much feeling in those. Feels a lot more dice role oriented.
As for graviteam stuff. The interface in those is horrendous. It's also single player only. I actually recently downloaded operation star and want to give graviteam another go. I have never seen building combat in graviteam games? Want to see that.
Quote from: JasonPratt on June 13, 2021, 12:18:06 PM
I think it should be clarified that Matrix/Slitherine has worked hard on re-upping the old CC games, and has even introduced two new games (before Bloody First). They also made a modern game, but I don't recall anyone praising it. (It's a remake of CC: Marines, produced only for the USMC at the time.)
CC1 was already remade as CC5, if I recall correctly. CC1 doesn't seem to be available except perhaps as a used game somewhere on Ebay or whatever.
CC2 has become Last Stand Arnhem. Both are available at GoG. As noted, this focuses on Market-Garden.
CC3 has become Cross of Iron. Both are available at GoG. This covers the entire East Front war, and so is the largest and most ambitious of the games. While there is a linear campaign (Soviet or Nazi side, starting in 1943), there are multiple other campaigns, too.
CC4 has become Wacht Am Rhein. Both are available at GoG. As the name suggests, this is the Battle of the Bulge. For a long time, Wacht had the fewest updates and worked least on modern systems, but last year there were two updates and the latest was less than a month ago! (All the Matrix remake games have gotten an update on March 21st this year.)
CC5 has become The Longest Day. Both are available at GoG. This is the D-Day game.
Furthermore, Matrix/litherine produced Panthers in the Fog (review coming to Grogheads sooner or later ;) ), and Gateway to Caen. Both are post-D-Day operations, Caen being obvious, but 'the Fog' involves fighting after the Operation Cobra breakout as Patton races to France's West Coast. As far as I know, Fog is the only game anywhere that focuses on this crucial battle for the West.
The Bloody First is definitely not a remake of an earlier game, as it's intended to follow one Division (US 1st Division, the Big Red One) throughout the war in multiple theaters from North Africa to the August 1944 breakouts in Normandy. It's a linked campaign with 11 operations, much like the classic Panzer General campaigns; you manage your forces but not a campaign map. (The other six games offer a campaign map to manage resources and sector battles on.) You could say that the Fog acts as a sequel, however, since Bloody ends with Operation Cobra.
Chronologically, then, the games would be the Bloody First (but its idea of a campaign is more linear); the Longest Day; Fog and Caen (more or less simultaneously); Last Stand Arnhem; and Wacht Am Rhein; with Cross of Iron having multiple campaigns stretching before and after this sequence.
For content, Cross of Iron would be the largest for the money spent.
Yes, thanks for the overview. I lost track of the many iterations years ago.
I think operation star will take a lot of getting used to. The feedback I am getting in battle is not really immediately transparent. I have no idea what is going on. Guess that is like real war. I can see things are green\red etc meaning they are wounded or dead. Right click takes you to units which is cool.
Took me a while to figure out the blue\red\neutral flags were for populating the six battle squares with troops on both sides in skirmish mode. Filled all the squares with red russian troops and then got an yellow timer..... took me 5 mins to figure out without the tutorial. But man I really like the combat mission interface compared to this one. I really like to rewind and go see what exactly happened to each unit. However operationally graviteam definitely have a better way of doing things. Steel Division 2 though has real people and a community to aspire to play with.
(https://i.imgur.com/31gAoDS.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/OLrW7gI.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/KMZ2DdM.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/HAdApRJ.png)
get Close Combat 3!
it has tons of mods and maps and all kinds of good stuff!
the ad hoc nature of your battlegroup is kinda the way things actually ran on the eastern front.
and you get to kill commies!
Everything I've read is that if you can GET the Graviteam games, they're the best at what they do. But you've got to learn the UI and the system. Otherwise, it seems it's a total fail. This is one of those games that I've never seen to be so polarizing: you either get it, or not. It's an A of an F. Nobody finds the game average.
For me, I really wanted to like the Steel Fury games, and I so wished Graviteam had built on that base. Sigh. It is what it is.
From what I've read only, if one can get the UI and mechanics of Grav.Tac. down, that is the best of the genre. But a player has to get over that hurtle, or else the game is not fun. For me, I really, really want to love Steel Fury, but I just haven't invested the time to watch YouTube and learn the UI, so it's a frustrating game to me. There always arrives a point where I get buried into a few mouse clicks and I no longer know how to get back to the top-level UL. And so I give up.
That's neither here nor there, though. I have Op Star, and if I'm going to learn one system it's going to be CM. I'm not into the genre to learn a new system. That's just me, of course.
go here for everything
http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/index.php
http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=Downloads
and get Real Red from here
http://www.closecombatseries.net/CCS/modules.php?name=Downloads&cid=24
Ive had Op Star for a while and just cant be bothered to learn all of the non-intuitive bullshit.
close combat is EASY to play.
CM is somewhere in the middle.
The Bloody First is absolute dog crap and best forgotten about. I still prefer CC2 Last Stand Arnhem over any other title (including the remake), but I'm a bit curmudgeonly like that. :buck2: I liked the smaller maps of the original games... Oh, and the lack of that main menu trumpet music from CC5 in Longest Day makes me quite sad. :(
Graviteam games are good, even great in their own right, but they're much more macro focused and once you set up a battle, you're mostly just watching it play out. I get the appeal, but I much prefer the "digital ASL" experience where I get to micro my squads a bit and choose where they shoot or throw smoke or what have you.
I have every CM game, but I find them a little clunky and fiddly, so CC is where it's at for me: perfect combo of slow tactical realism and goop for my goopy goblin gamer brain that wants to shoot explodey guns and watch tanks go boom.
I played through the updated CC2 a few months ago and had a lot of fun with it.
In operation star the hunt command seems to have both sides running through each other without stopping and firing "much". Must work differently from hunt in all other games. I had all sorts of strange things happening like tanks with no crews running backwards for 100m and then forwards for 100m again. It was strange.
I just read a thread from the devs on steam as well and it seems they really really hate multiplayer. That turns me off a large amount because I believe it to be a cop out.
I've been wanting to get Panthers in the Fog forever and then when I read the crap reviews I just walk away. Is it really that craptacular?
Hard to say. We really need a Groghead review of it one day.
>:D
Re ComOps2 (and its prior family), yes it's more operational level, that's true. You aren't going to see individual units (unless something goes really wrong with a squad, which I recall being the least unit on the map. ;) ) And it's pushing counters around, whether NATOish or something more visually representative of the unit type as a flag.
Having said that: I found the gameplay, and how it relates to the maps, VERY similar to CC, with more bling in regard to setting up orders (if you want to -- or you can just tell your on-map boss to go 'here' and watch it devolve orders down the line to subunits.) It has the order-timing feature CC is missing, too, although on the other hand you can turn that off. Last year, or the year before -- a little after ComOps2 released on Steam, some enterprising super-grog ran some tests to discover that it's more efficient to micro things around rather than to delegate! Which is technically true, but only helpful if you're pausing the game all the time. If you're running it at a speed to better simulate the business of developing and passing orders (instead of being one guy with a keyboard and an occasional pause button) -- especially if you're playing mp (I expect) -- you need to delegate more. And of course it depends on how large the fight is. There's no point NOT to micro manage the ten units in the two tutorial-demo missions, for example.
Having said that: I'm sorry to report that, after buying into the game for a couple of decades through its iterations (since its 2nd gen release, Highway to the Reich) without ever really playing it, I sat down in 2019 to seriously learn the game by playing the flanking maneuver mission of Italy's botched invasion of Greece -- playing the Greek side myself -- and I learned that the system is AT LEAST as wonky in execution as Close Combat ever was. ::) :P
It's super-impressive, don't get me wrong, and I had a blast playing it, but my immersion often blew right out the window watching the units do things that would never, ever happen in real life, when realistic command results is the big draw of the game.
To give one example, the Italian AI really should have won the match: they had managed to infiltrate practically an entire division past my scattered guards, despite my best efforts, and gotten them to the ex-fil zone. All they had to do was leave the map to win, and win HUGE. Sure, I might have thought the game was a tad gamey in the events leading up to that situation, but once I realized what happened, I could accept the result as plausible and fair.
The problem was that I discovered this a few days after the op started as some of my own reinforcement divisions started to arrive from off-map, and I realized I had some extra 'pieces' to go down and secure the ex-fil road. So I probed down there very properly, expecting to run into Italians trying to get there, not realizing the Italians had already gotten everyone there which the AI cared to send, more than enough to totally win.
And they had been sitting there in that grid. Doing nothing. For at least one game day, maybe two.
When I detected them there, I panicked, thinking dang I was just behind them and I hadn't moved fast enough (sort of true there), and now I'm going to have to watch them exit the board...! ...but nope. They sat there on a hill near the road leading off the map to victory, and died/surrendered in a glorious defense as I brought everyone I could down on them. Then I held the position, fending off a couple of sallies over the next few days. I still had about half the days to go in the op, and maybe some other things would happen, but I felt empty. (And frustrated over some other dippy things going on elsewhere that made no sense; like a motorized infantry unit deciding to go the long way around a river instead of fording it like everyone else in the group, and then getting stuck in the mud slightly off road, and refusing to abandon their trucks to slowwwwwly inch them along their original dumbass path anyway which I could never order them off of, as their usefulness withered and died over the days and nights they spent in their Sisiphean torments.)
...sigh. But yeah. We were talking about CC. O:-)
Quote from: al_infierno on June 14, 2021, 01:57:34 AM
I get the appeal [of the Graviteam systems], but I much prefer the "digital ASL" experience where I get to micro my squads a bit and choose where they shoot or throw smoke or what have you.
Yep! -- and the CC series itself was originally supposed to be an official Advanced Squad Leader adaptation except in real-time. Some rights issues fell through or something.
Though personally I prefer Combat Mission and its ilk, which are much like 3D implementations of Close Combat (even down to some of the user interface designs). But there's room for both, and reasons to enjoy and gnash teeth at both. >:D