Stellaris

[sandman2575]

Its interesting...maybe I'm alone here, but I never really play 4x games to "win", per se.  I mean, I play them to survive and create a powerful prosperous empire with an edge over the other factions in any game, but I'm not really playing to "win" like in the context of how one may play to win a game of chess.

I'm never in search of the endgame victory screen. I really play to create a system of alliances that generate productive trade and security, while building an infrastructure and military strong enough to influence my opponents, and exert my culture, and when necessary, or bored, inflict total devastation on those who test my resolve.

Anyone else play in a manner that prolongs games, or seeks to create a somewhat indefinite cycle of play? Eventually, I do get bored and leave the game or start over, but I almost never play a game through to a victory by conquest, diplomacy, economy, science or culture, etc.     

This is interesting. I think I'm in a related camp -- which is to say, I'm also not really playing to win, but most often, just playing to figure out how the game works. I know that sounds strange but it's very often the case that the challenge of a lot of strategy games is, for me, just learning how to play -- like the whole thing is just some extended in-depth tutorial.

It's a pretty small fraction of games that I actually try to get better at, and so continue playing after I think I've got the basics down. In so many instances it just seems like the 'magic' of a game disappears once I know what the hell I'm doing (!)

Really, the only Space 4Xs I repeatedly return to are Distant Worlds and SotSII. I have a pretty good handle on both those games -- and Lord knows it took me a *while* to really figure out how to play DW! Other Space 4X, like Endless Space or Gal Civ or Star Ruler, are prime examples of games where I essentially lost interest after getting down the basics.

I picked up Polaris Sector but haven't really given it a go yet. I started playing... and then had a strong urge to go back to Distant Worlds...

[mikeck]

I would give polaris sector another shot. I love distant worlds and think it is (was?) the best space 4x around. I also really enjoyed SoTS 2, Although I wished colony development was more detailed. I enjoy Polaris sector more than either truthfully. DW may have more depth concerning resource trade and the private economy, but I just have more with the starlanes of Polaris. I know lots of people hate it, but ye lanes act like terrain on a battlefield and control strategy. It forces you to fight over piddlely little planets simply because they control access to a whole bunch of stars with good planets.

[Tanaka]

I would give polaris sector another shot. I love distant worlds and think it is (was?) the best space 4x around. I also really enjoyed SoTS 2, Although I wished colony development was more detailed. I enjoy Polaris sector more than either truthfully. DW may have more depth concerning resource trade and the private economy, but I just have more with the starlanes of Polaris. I know lots of people hate it, but ye lanes act like terrain on a battlefield and control strategy. It forces you to fight over piddlely little planets simply because they control access to a whole bunch of stars with good planets.

I gotta agree. One of my biggest gripes with DW is that fleets could just show up anywhere out of nowhere. I hate playing whack a mole. I love the strategy options of the maps in Polaris Sector among other things.

[Anguille]

Going to buy it but reading the Stellaris EULA made me want to vomit...

[Huw the Poo]

I just skimmed the EULA and it looks fairly generic.  Am I missing something?

[Anguille]

I just skimmed the EULA and it looks fairly generic.  Am I missing something?

Maybe i am too old...or it's been long since i last read one...

As far as i can see, Paradox is one of the few companies to have an additionnal EULA.

[sandman2575]

I have no problem with star lanes -- Sins of a Solar Empire is one of my favorite space games ever, and I agree that star lanes can make for some interesting strategic situations.

Not really sure what's holding me back with Polaris Sector -- I've only put like an hour into it but it didn't grab me (I know that's not enough to judge the game as a whole, but it is enough to make a first impression, which for me was lukewarm). I guess because a large part of the early game is just sending your scout around, I found the exploration really uninteresting -- with each new star system boiling down to "is there a colonizable planet there or not?"  This is something that I have to say Distant Worlds does well -- the sense of exploration being more meaningful. I actually love just scouting things in DW to find out what resources they may have. It's nothing revolutionary, of course, but it does give a satisfying sense of "ooh I wonder what's over there" that's missing from too many space 4x.

Another gripe I have about 4X conventions -- which frankly I wish some visionary would tear up and start from scratch -- is the idea that you start out with a hyper-advanced civilization capable of building intergalactic starships, and you begin with a grand fleet of: one ship. One. I understand the gaming logic of that, but the "you only start with a scout, and maybe a constructor or colonizer too" dogma is so tiresome at this point. That and the "Pirates are going to be super overpowered, functioning not as actual pirates but as a roaming death armada capable of taking on entire civilizations..."

Most of that is not aimed solely at Polaris of course -- it's just far too endemic to the 4x genre as a whole.

[jamus34]

From what I can tell the first hour or three of a PS game is really slow, you have no tech, next to no production, and colony build up is really slow. I decided to modify my colony ship on start to include 3k colonists is helping and now to be able to colonize father planets I built a supply ship.
Combat still eludes me a bit, I have some better weapons but there trade off just doesn't seem worth it but I might be missing something.

[Jarhead0331]

I have no problem with star lanes -- Sins of a Solar Empire is one of my favorite space games ever, and I agree that star lanes can make for some interesting strategic situations.

Not really sure what's holding me back with Polaris Sector -- I've only put like an hour into it but it didn't grab me (I know that's not enough to judge the game as a whole, but it is enough to make a first impression, which for me was lukewarm). I guess because a large part of the early game is just sending your scout around, I found the exploration really uninteresting -- with each new star system boiling down to "is there a colonizable planet there or not?"  This is something that I have to say Distant Worlds does well -- the sense of exploration being more meaningful. I actually love just scouting things in DW to find out what resources they may have. It's nothing revolutionary, of course, but it does give a satisfying sense of "ooh I wonder what's over there" that's missing from too many space 4x.

Another gripe I have about 4X conventions -- which frankly I wish some visionary would tear up and start from scratch -- is the idea that you start out with a hyper-advanced civilization capable of building intergalactic starships, and you begin with a grand fleet of: one ship. One. I understand the gaming logic of that, but the "you only start with a scout, and maybe a constructor or colonizer too" dogma is so tiresome at this point. That and the "Pirates are going to be super overpowered, functioning not as actual pirates but as a roaming death armada capable of taking on entire civilizations..."

Most of that is not aimed solely at Polaris of course -- it's just far too endemic to the 4x genre as a whole.

You're not alone. PS left a fairly unfavorable first impression with me too. I bought it straight away after some initial positive feedback, tried it out and said, "I don't see anything here..." But I stuck with it for a bit and once I started without the pirate nuisance, got a few basic techs and some favorable worlds to colonize, the game really took off. I'm telling you...its sense of time and scale is unrivaled in the 4x gaming world. No other game that I can think of gives quite the same immersive sensation of time and distance as PS. This makes the game feel quite epic and adds a really significant strategic element.

Additionally, there is a tremendous amount of creative, useful technology to unlock here. Its not just lasers...bigger lasers...biggest lasers. There are so many modules and components that really enhance your fleets and give the player a tremendous amount of flexibility in the kinds of ship classes and roles that can be designed. So, I think PS also has the edge when it comes to technology and ship design, two elements that are either fairly generic in most 4x games, or in some instances, abstracted or left out altogether. 

I wouldn't pass this one up. It deserves the attention of all series 4x gamers.

[Barthheart]

I have no problem with star lanes -- Sins of a Solar Empire is one of my favorite space games ever, and I agree that star lanes can make for some interesting strategic situations.

Not really sure what's holding me back with Polaris Sector -- I've only put like an hour into it but it didn't grab me (I know that's not enough to judge the game as a whole, but it is enough to make a first impression, which for me was lukewarm). I guess because a large part of the early game is just sending your scout around, I found the exploration really uninteresting -- with each new star system boiling down to "is there a colonizable planet there or not?"  This is something that I have to say Distant Worlds does well -- the sense of exploration being more meaningful. I actually love just scouting things in DW to find out what resources they may have. It's nothing revolutionary, of course, but it does give a satisfying sense of "ooh I wonder what's over there" that's missing from too many space 4x.

Another gripe I have about 4X conventions -- which frankly I wish some visionary would tear up and start from scratch -- is the idea that you start out with a hyper-advanced civilization capable of building intergalactic starships, and you begin with a grand fleet of: one ship. One. I understand the gaming logic of that, but the "you only start with a scout, and maybe a constructor or colonizer too" dogma is so tiresome at this point. That and the "Pirates are going to be super overpowered, functioning not as actual pirates but as a roaming death armada capable of taking on entire civilizations..."

Most of that is not aimed solely at Polaris of course -- it's just far too endemic to the 4x genre as a whole.

You're not alone. PS left a fairly unfavorable first impression with me too. I bought it straight away after some initial positive feedback, tried it out and said, "I don't see anything here..." But I stuck with it for a bit and once I started without the pirate nuisance, got a few basic techs and some favorable worlds to colonize, the game really took off. I'm telling you...its sense of time and scale is unrivaled in the 4x gaming world. No other game that I can think of gives quite the same immersive sensation of time and distance as PS. This makes the game feel quite epic and adds a really significant strategic element.

Additionally, there is a tremendous amount of creative, useful technology to unlock here. Its not just lasers...bigger lasers...biggest lasers. There are so many modules and components that really enhance your fleets and give the player a tremendous amount of flexibility in the kinds of ship classes and roles that can be designed. So, I think PS also has the edge when it comes to technology and ship design, two elements that are either fairly generic in most 4x games, or in some instances, abstracted or left out altogether. 

I wouldn't pass this one up. It deserves the attention of all series 4x gamers.

+1

I just hope that Stellaris has the same sense of time scale epicness.

[Jarhead0331]

Yes...I have very high hopes for Stellaris. If it is truly developed with an eye toward detail in the same vein as CKII, Victoria, HOI and EU games, I think it has the potential to be an extremely unique grand strategic 4x gaming experience. We'll see.

[sandman2575]

Appreciate the feedback, guys -- if you say dig deeper, PS has a payoff, I'm sure that must be the case.

Re: Stellaris -- maybe I'm just a blind Paradox fanboy at this point, but Stellaris sure looks like a slam dunk and a sure thing. I have full faith they are going to pull off something special here -- and ditto for HoI4.

[Greybriar]

Going to buy it but reading the Stellaris EULA made me want to vomit...

I just skimmed the EULA and it looks fairly generic.  Am I missing something?

I agree with both of you. Nearly everything digital you buy requires the purchaser to agree to the seller's EULA and Privacy Policy. I think the situation stinks and needs to be changed.

[FarAway Sooner]

I have no problem with star lanes -- Sins of a Solar Empire is one of my favorite space games ever, and I agree that star lanes can make for some interesting strategic situations.

Not really sure what's holding me back with Polaris Sector -- I've only put like an hour into it but it didn't grab me (I know that's not enough to judge the game as a whole, but it is enough to make a first impression, which for me was lukewarm). I guess because a large part of the early game is just sending your scout around, I found the exploration really uninteresting -- with each new star system boiling down to "is there a colonizable planet there or not?"  This is something that I have to say Distant Worlds does well -- the sense of exploration being more meaningful. I actually love just scouting things in DW to find out what resources they may have. It's nothing revolutionary, of course, but it does give a satisfying sense of "ooh I wonder what's over there" that's missing from too many space 4x.

Another gripe I have about 4X conventions -- which frankly I wish some visionary would tear up and start from scratch -- is the idea that you start out with a hyper-advanced civilization capable of building intergalactic starships, and you begin with a grand fleet of: one ship. One. I understand the gaming logic of that, but the "you only start with a scout, and maybe a constructor or colonizer too" dogma is so tiresome at this point. That and the "Pirates are going to be super overpowered, functioning not as actual pirates but as a roaming death armada capable of taking on entire civilizations..."

Most of that is not aimed solely at Polaris of course -- it's just far too endemic to the 4x genre as a whole.

Great post, Sandman!

DW did come up with a great vibe for the exploration sequence.  You don't just clear out goody huts and look at "How big a planet can I build here how soon?", but you're also looking at a myriad of different resources for mining purposes, proximity to starbases and other major planets impacts ease of commerce, etc. 

I think the resource model for DW got a bit too complicated (although the UI helps with micromanagement, it's still required and not so satisfying for me), but they could have reduced the # of resources in the game by 33% and still kept all the good stuff.  The original money/research/production triad that's been around since Civ 1 is now a quarter-century old, and the addition of "special resources" that just augment one of those 3 functions has grown stale as well.  Polaris Sector has (I think) 6 special resources that are required to build different component types, which seems like it might be enough, but I haven't played the game so I won't venture an opinion.

I'm fine with the "uber-powered pirates" scenario, as I really appreciate the P vs E element in 4x games.  Master of Magic was the first title to get that right in 1994, but I think that's another area where DW knocks the ball out of the park.  For me, part of the fun of exploration is figuring out which planets I can mine/colonize when and how those fit into my pirate protection schemes.  An isolated colony or mining outpost on a great planet is just so much pirate booty until sometime in the mid-game, and I love the challenge of managing those trade-offs.

Frankly, I'm enough smarter than the 4x AI players in most games that the only way to make them challenging is to give them huge bonuses to research, production, and/or money.  That can get stale after a while, so I like having to deal with some more powerful but less dynamic environmental opponents in the early game.   When those are fleshed out as a clear part of the story line (the way the Antareans were in MoO 2 or the pirates are in the Dark Ages setting of DW), I like it even more. 

I'm not sure how else to enhance the P vs E piece of the game if you eliminate tough pirates.    Random events like "bad interstellar weather" are more annoying than a strategic challenge.  I'm wondering if Stellaris will introduce some new challenges with the way factions evolve as you make different choices for different planets? (e.g., if you're really environmental but build lots of factories on every planet you settle as part of a colony rush strategy, the citizens of those colonies will start to agitate against your own "core" faction)

I like tough trade-off decisions, and the best games provide you with lots of those.

[Tanaka]

I have no problem with star lanes -- Sins of a Solar Empire is one of my favorite space games ever, and I agree that star lanes can make for some interesting strategic situations.

Not really sure what's holding me back with Polaris Sector -- I've only put like an hour into it but it didn't grab me (I know that's not enough to judge the game as a whole, but it is enough to make a first impression, which for me was lukewarm). I guess because a large part of the early game is just sending your scout around, I found the exploration really uninteresting -- with each new star system boiling down to "is there a colonizable planet there or not?"  This is something that I have to say Distant Worlds does well -- the sense of exploration being more meaningful. I actually love just scouting things in DW to find out what resources they may have. It's nothing revolutionary, of course, but it does give a satisfying sense of "ooh I wonder what's over there" that's missing from too many space 4x.

Another gripe I have about 4X conventions -- which frankly I wish some visionary would tear up and start from scratch -- is the idea that you start out with a hyper-advanced civilization capable of building intergalactic starships, and you begin with a grand fleet of: one ship. One. I understand the gaming logic of that, but the "you only start with a scout, and maybe a constructor or colonizer too" dogma is so tiresome at this point. That and the "Pirates are going to be super overpowered, functioning not as actual pirates but as a roaming death armada capable of taking on entire civilizations..."

Most of that is not aimed solely at Polaris of course -- it's just far too endemic to the 4x genre as a whole.

You're not alone. PS left a fairly unfavorable first impression with me too. I bought it straight away after some initial positive feedback, tried it out and said, "I don't see anything here..." But I stuck with it for a bit and once I started without the pirate nuisance, got a few basic techs and some favorable worlds to colonize, the game really took off. I'm telling you...its sense of time and scale is unrivaled in the 4x gaming world. No other game that I can think of gives quite the same immersive sensation of time and distance as PS. This makes the game feel quite epic and adds a really significant strategic element.

Additionally, there is a tremendous amount of creative, useful technology to unlock here. Its not just lasers...bigger lasers...biggest lasers. There are so many modules and components that really enhance your fleets and give the player a tremendous amount of flexibility in the kinds of ship classes and roles that can be designed. So, I think PS also has the edge when it comes to technology and ship design, two elements that are either fairly generic in most 4x games, or in some instances, abstracted or left out altogether. 

I wouldn't pass this one up. It deserves the attention of all series 4x gamers.

Agreed. It starts off slow and it took me a while to warm up to it. Then I read all of the feedback and the people that stuck with it started raving. So I gave it another shot and now I am raving. Stick with it and you will be hooked. Epic is definitely the word. I also turned the Pirates off. Too random and annoying.