Just started seeing this popping up on social media.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/15/turkey-low-flying-jets-and-gunfire-heard-in-ankara1/
Anyone hearing anything else on this?
Just saw that. Hopefully if the coup succeeds, the new rulers will be less hard-asses than Erdogan...and no hard-line Islamics either.
Quote from: steve58 on July 15, 2016, 03:27:39 PM
Just saw that. Hopefully if the coup succeeds, the new rulers will be less hard-asses than Erdogan...and no hard-line Islamics either.
Islamists seizing power in Turkey would be bad on levels I don't really even want to comprehend.
Quote from: SirAndrewD on July 15, 2016, 03:29:43 PM
Quote from: steve58 on July 15, 2016, 03:27:39 PM
Just saw that. Hopefully if the coup succeeds, the new rulers will be less hard-asses than Erdogan...and no hard-line Islamics either.
Islamists seizing power in Turkey would be bad on levels I don't really even want to comprehend.
Which could be why the military may be attempting to seize power, to shut-down the current pro-Islamic government.
Damn.
Quote from: Centurion40 on July 15, 2016, 03:41:44 PM
Quote from: SirAndrewD on July 15, 2016, 03:29:43 PM
Quote from: steve58 on July 15, 2016, 03:27:39 PM
Just saw that. Hopefully if the coup succeeds, the new rulers will be less hard-asses than Erdogan...and no hard-line Islamics either.
Islamists seizing power in Turkey would be bad on levels I don't really even want to comprehend.
Which could be why the military may be attempting to seize power, to shut-down the current pro-Islamic government.
No way to tell right now. Erdogan is certainly no gem when it comes to pro-democracy.
Seeing reports now where the military and government are issuing contrary statements of being in control.
Military is "claiming" success.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-15/turkish-premier-says-elements-of-army-attempt-to-seize-power
Bizarrely, this is pretty much how Kemal Attaturk set things up to function there. I remember at least a one, maybe two other times this has happened in my lifetime. The current situation, with Erdogan's government being able to pretty much suppress the power of the military, is an aberration.
Now, let's hope that this is the usual secular military trying to steer stuff back to a more mainstream course than a group trying to out-fanatic the current Islamic hardliners in Erdogan's government.
Quote from: panzerde on July 15, 2016, 03:48:25 PM
Bizarrely, this is pretty much how Kemal Attaturk set things up to function there. I remember at least a one, maybe two other times this has happened in my lifetime. The current situation, with Erdogan's government being able to pretty much suppress the power of the military, is an aberration.
Now, let's hope that this is the usual secular military trying to steer stuff back to a more mainstream course than a group trying to out-fanatic the current Islamic hardliners in Erdogan's government.
It is starting to seem like it's the secular military.
Yep, definitely looking that way. Trying to raise a Steam buddy that's a Turk, see if he's ok and has anymore news.
Says he hears gunfire in the distance. He believes that the coup has most probably failed
My friend says most of the fighting is around the General Staff HQ. He's about 10 mi away. Says he hears very heavy gunfire now.
Well, if it fails, Turkey will be worse off (if it was a secular military coup). Erdogan will take this as an opportunity to crack down harder that he has...
Quote from: steve58 on July 15, 2016, 04:03:44 PM
Well, if it fails, Turkey will be worse off (if it was a secular military coup). Erdogan will take this as an opportunity to crack down harder that he has...
Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking.
Fighting at the General Staff HQ doesn't seem to indicate success.
Apparently Erdogan is/was out of the country...
Quote
USA Today added that the location of Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan is unknown; he was on vacation when this action was executed.
State TV is apparently only showing a documentary about Azerbaijan. Looks like it might be under military control, or at least not under state control.
Being careful what I say or ask my Turkish friend. Don't want to leave any digital trail he could get in trouble later over.
Quote from: steve58 on July 15, 2016, 04:08:29 PM
Apparently Erdogan is/was out of the country...
Quote
USA Today added that the location of Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan is unknown; he was on vacation when this action was executed.
A likely time for a coup then...
Quote from: panzerde on July 15, 2016, 04:13:03 PM
Quote from: steve58 on July 15, 2016, 04:08:29 PM
Apparently Erdogan is/was out of the country...
Quote
USA Today added that the location of Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan is unknown; he was on vacation when this action was executed.
A likely time for a coup then...
Indeed :)
Hope your friend comes out of this unscathed/OK...
Quote from: steve58 on July 15, 2016, 04:15:54 PM
Quote from: panzerde on July 15, 2016, 04:13:03 PM
Quote from: steve58 on July 15, 2016, 04:08:29 PM
Apparently Erdogan is/was out of the country...
Quote
USA Today added that the location of Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan is unknown; he was on vacation when this action was executed.
A likely time for a coup then...
Indeed :)
Hope your friend comes out of this unscathed/OK...
+1 on your friend.
With things in the balance it's probably best for anyone on the ground over there to be very very quiet and neutral until the smoke clears.
I was quite surprised to see him online. Aside from not wanting to cause him problems, I don't see it as really my place to make political comments to someone in another country the middle of a coup in any case. :crazy2:
But yes, were I him I'd be keeping my mouth shut!
If the coup succeed that can be a good thing because the generals (at least in in the past) were known for being non-ilsmistic, while Erdogan was steering Turkey society into more Islamic minded waters.
Well, if the coup fails we will have a 'proximity dictatorship' of Erdogan with Erdogan's relatives and marionettes in leading positions and Turkey will went down faster on the track he has planed...
btw: we have 1.5 Million Turks in Germany (which is waaay to much!) so i hope there is no civilwar in Turkey and the pro and contra groups also kind of import their conflicts onto our streets
News here says Prez was on vacation in country, some place called Marmeress(?).
Seems coup has failed. Led by some small faction in military not the whole org.
Well... Seems Military are claiming control of country... While Prez says his cronies are in control...?
All social media shutdown in country.
Curfew in place... Prez calling for people to defy it and fill the streets.....
Yep, my friend is now marked Away on Steam. Don't know if that's because he's sensibly hunkered down or what. Doesn't look like he's been cut off from the Internet, though.
Mrs B has a guy from Istanbul in her WoW guild - he says that he can hear gunfire and the situation is still confused, but he's staying at home and trying to make sense of the news reports.
Erdogan has been gathering power to make himself unassailable and turning Turkey into an Islamic state. Now, if that's the religion you choose, that's up to you. But if it leads to less freedom for its citizens, then I think it's a terrible way to govern. And I hope that secular, democratic power is returned. Coup or no coup.
I've been wondering how long it would take before the military would do something. They nearly always step in if they feel a government is not following Ataturks's principles of Kemalism. Erdogan was definitely leading Turkey away from those.
Erdogan has built up a substantial cult following among the populace and has also sacked many secular military officials and replaced them with cronies. I fear that the current Turkish military establishment is now fragmented and nothing like the Ataturk ideal of decades past. If the current coup leaders become effectively isolated from the rest of the Turkish military's command structure by Erdogan's loyalists they won't last long.
Quote from: Staggerwing on July 15, 2016, 07:10:47 PM
Erdogan has built up a substantial cult following among the populace and has also sacked many secular military officials and replaced them with cronies. I fear that the current Turkish military establishment is now fragmented and nothing like the Ataturk ideal of decades past. If the current coup leaders become effectively isolated from the rest of the Turkish military's command structure by Erdogan's loyalists they won't last long.
That's my biggest concern here, that the coup leaders don't have enough support in the military to pull this off. The worst situation would be a full breakdown into civil war, but I'd be surprised to see that. Far more likely that they might have some initial success and then be overwhelmed when Erdogan manages to rally some loyalist forces over the next couple of days.
I hope that the majority of the military is behind this, and all of it can be concluded quickly and with as little bloodshed as possible.
Here's some recent news:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13746679
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36809083
Hope this does not turn into a long civil war like Syria.
I hope I'm wrong but I'm getting the sense that Erdogan and his apparatus are gaining the upper hand.
And of course Obama HAS to get involved supporting the "Democratically Elected" government. Even I know Erdogan stole his election to President. Like the whole world has to be told by Obama who to be for and who to be against. I wish that guy would go back to talking about girls and boys using the same bathroom.
Quote from: Sir Slash on July 15, 2016, 09:58:31 PM
And of course Obama HAS to get involved supporting the "Democratically Elected" government. Even I know Erdogan stole his election to President. Like the whole world has to be told by Obama who to be for and who to be against. I wish that guy would go back to talking about girls and boys using the same bathroom.
Our prez seems hell bent on being a complete douche nozzle for the remainder of his time in office.
Sounds like it's all over. This will give Erdogan all the reasons he needs to get rid of all those in the military who are critical of his regime.
Quote from: Pinetree on July 15, 2016, 11:33:31 PM
Sounds like it's all over. This will give Erdogan all the reasons he needs to get rid of all those in the military who are critical of his regime.
sadly not only in the military but also in the whole society :(
So.... What if the "coup" was setup to get the Prez even more powers? ???
BBC reporting that almost 3000 judges are also being ousted along with the almost 3000 military arrested.
Quote from: Barthheart on July 16, 2016, 07:07:07 AM
So.... What if the "coup" was setup to get the Prez even more powers? ???
BBC reporting that almost 3000 judges are also being ousted along with the almost 3000 military arrested.
Or maybe Erdogan's people got wind of the impending coup and let it happen anyway after insuring that the plotters were isolated from the rest of the military. What better set up to suspend rule of law could you ask for?
Quote from: Staggerwing on July 16, 2016, 07:29:39 AM
Quote from: Barthheart on July 16, 2016, 07:07:07 AM
So.... What if the "coup" was setup to get the Prez even more powers? ???
BBC reporting that almost 3000 judges are also being ousted along with the almost 3000 military arrested.
Or maybe Erdogan's people got wind of the impending coup and let it happen anyway after insuring that the plotters were isolated from the rest of the military. What better set up to suspend rule of law could you ask for?
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgrogheads.com%2Fforums%2FSmileys%2F%2FBrantz%2520Smilies%2Fafro.gif&hash=039e95bd4a616abd34cdb9e7b01bb25caa5523c6)
If the Turkish military couldn't do any better than this, it makes you wonder how capable they are at all anymore. This is like back to the WWI failure standard.
Quote from: Centurion40 on July 15, 2016, 03:41:44 PM
Quote from: SirAndrewD on July 15, 2016, 03:29:43 PM
Quote from: steve58 on July 15, 2016, 03:27:39 PM
Just saw that. Hopefully if the coup succeeds, the new rulers will be less hard-asses than Erdogan...and no hard-line Islamics either.
Islamists seizing power in Turkey would be bad on levels I don't really even want to comprehend.
Which could be why the military may be attempting to seize power, to shut-down the current pro-Islamic government.
That's what I am reading.
Quote from: Staggerwing on July 16, 2016, 07:29:39 AM
Quote from: Barthheart on July 16, 2016, 07:07:07 AM
So.... What if the "coup" was setup to get the Prez even more powers? ???
BBC reporting that almost 3000 judges are also being ousted along with the almost 3000 military arrested.
Or maybe Erdogan's people got wind of the impending coup and let it happen anyway after insuring that the plotters were isolated from the rest of the military. What better set up to suspend rule of law could you ask for?
It was already on the way out. Erdogan wants an Islamic dictatorship, and that is what he will get. His actions against IS are negligible compared to the YPG and YPJ who ARE actually fighting IS. In point of fact, Turkey has struck at the Kurds who are fighting IS! Draw your own conclusions, especially since there is evidence that the Russian aircraft shot down was targeting an IS fuel convoy, and it is rumoured Erdogan's son had an interest in it.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-releases-proof-turkey-is-smuggling-isis-oil-over-its-border-a6757651.html
Quote from: Boggit on July 16, 2016, 11:21:50 AM
It was already on the way out. Erdogan wants an Islamic dictatorship, and that is what he will get. His actions against IS are negligible compared to the YPG and YPJ who ARE actually fighting IS. In point of fact, Turkey has struck at the Kurds who are fighting IS! Draw your own conclusions, especially since there is evidence that the Russian aircraft shot down was targeting an IS fuel convoy, and it is rumoured Erdogan's son had an interest in it.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-releases-proof-turkey-is-smuggling-isis-oil-over-its-border-a6757651.html
It seems that way. My first worry when I heard about this were Erdogan or even more hardline elements being behind things. From the images and info coming out, I'm not sure Erdogan was actually behind what happened, and it was the secularists, but the end result is almost going to be the same as if he had "false flagged" it.
It's a shame the secularists didn't have a more firm plan. I guess they'd hoped more of the police and military would've declared for them once they got the ball rolling. As it is they've just made things worse it seems.
Playing some Twilight Struggle 2016....
Ok, I'm going to do a Coup attempt in Turkey....stability number is only a 1, doubles to 2. Playing my "Hillary survives FBI probe" card for the OP points (3)....<dice roll>....ugh, whiffed that one. Ok, Coup attempt fails. That will now trigger the event and that's where we're at folks.
i would like to bring a new unmentioned point into the discussion that puzzle me.
the firstmost action when doing a coup is a "decapitation strike" against the ruling President and his lieutenants, isn't it?
(that does not has to be literally gruessome bloody as it sounds, just 'neutralize' his security detail, catch him, and put him under house detention in a luxury mannor in your best controlled area (or the barracks), and air a picture or a small vid where he sits unharmed, well comped and clothed in leisure wear at a table having a dinner plate under the guard of heavy armed and extrem bulky soldiers left and right... it is import to show: you are in control, but you leave him his human dignity... so his followers don't go totally apeshit because he was dangling strung up by his nutsack from a cellar ceiling or such)
there was no real news about an attempt, or they were looking in the wrong spot and raiding the wrong compounds in the wrong city.
this supports the theory:
Erdogan was well known for having good and trusty intelligence information whats going on inside his ottoman realm through several sources, also his family clan members and all their networks, an assortment of informants and paid double agents....its still the Orient, after all!
So its possible he knew about the upcoming coup, took silent precautions and preparation, let the coup happen, stopped the coup quit fast in its track, and now feast on the fallout of the situation.... and is now pretty much the ottoman kingpin with an Islamic overtaste he always liked to become.
Unfortunately for the West he is sitting in a global strategic position that neither the USA (which wants to keep the access to airbases, harbors, and not much talked about listening posts close to Russia) nor the weak and splintered EU can do much against him getting his will. (he can reopen the "refugee vent" in notime and Greek islands -and so in the longrun the EU- gets flooded with thousends of so called 'refugees' a day! again)
The only thing that people in the West themself now can do that may work is to stay away as tourist and avoid Turk goods as much as possible. So the Turks in-country get unhappy blame it on Erdogans and his clan and ruling party and throw them out of the office in the next ballot so clearly that even manipulation will not work... followed by riots and strike when he ignores the ballot at all and just open declares his Ottoman realm dictatorship.
Erdogan claimed the resort he was in was bombed. But he left the place before the strike.
...and "the cleansing (operation) is continuing" (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/07/17/turkey-rounds-up-52-military-seeks-to-detain-53-judges.html) stated "Justice" Minister Bekir Bozdag.
I'msurprised the secular Kemalite Turkish military leadership hadn't attempted to oust the Islamist supporting Turk Presidency years ago. Figured the military was excessively infiltrated by supporters of Erdogan's Islamist dictatorship ideals by now.
This must've been a last feeble attempt by the ever-dwindling secular faction in the military. Which probably should've been done long before Erdogan got the presidency, as their leadership has been sliding into Islamist tyranny since before he went from PM to Prez. Too little too late. :-\
Quote from: Fox Article
Bozdag also said he was confident that the United States would return Islamic cleric Fethullah Gulen to Turkey. The Turkish president has blamed Gulen and his followers for the failed military coup on Friday night, but Gulen has denied any involvement in or knowledge about the attempted coup. The U.S. says it will look at any evidence Turkey has to offer against Gulen, and judge accordingly.
I hope our Idiot-In-Charge isn't thinking about assisting the Erdogan's purges by sending ex-pats on the Erdogan hitlist back there to be tortured and killed. It's been plain, for years, that Turkey's leadership isn't interested in assisting it's NATO allies, and has been working against them in some cases. But I wouldn't put any stupidity past our current Admin.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/18/world/middleeast/turkey-allows-resumption-of-us-missions-from-incirlik-air-base.html?_r=0
The fun part was when the Turkish gov't cordoned off the air base where the US has some nukes stored. As if they were ever going to get their hands on them...
OMFG
..And the purges continue. (http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-east/82233402/turkey-removes-8000-police-officers-across-the-country) The last paragraph worries me greatly:
QuoteErdogan said on Sunday after the failed coup attempt that there could be no delay in using capital punishment, which Turkey abolished in 2004, and the government would discuss it with opposition parties.
Damn, just damn. I spent a month backpacking there back in '99 and fell in love with the place and people. The Turks used to pride themselves on their secularism and Ataturk was revered. There were statues and portraits of him everywhere. I once spent a night talking to a bar owner in Eceabat (A town close to the Gallipoli battlefields) and he showed me his illustrated book on Ataturk that he treasured. It really saddens me to see what is happening there.
Just read on CNN that Germany has threatened an end to EU negoiations with Turkey if the death penalty is reintroduced.
I too mourn the death of democracy in Turkey. I've never been there but have always had an affinity with the what seems like the only sensible Muslim country in the world-- I know I've left out a few others. It also saddens me to see how few people care about it in the US though we do have a lot else on our plates right now.
Quote
Turkey's ministry of education announced Tuesday it sacked 15,200 personnel, including 1,577 university deans, for alleged involvement with a group the government claims plotted Friday's deadly failed coup, in the latest mass crackdown against government workers there.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/07/19/turkeys-education-ministry-reportedly-fires-15200-for-ties-to-failed-coup.html
Oh my, wonder who Erdogan is going to get to replace all those teachers. Islamic clerics, perhaps?
That's why he removed all the secular judges first- so no one could sue to keep his or her job.
Anybody think maybe he's going too far and too fast? Will Turkey have a "Muslim Brotherhood" moment like Egypt?
WaPo weighs in on the possible aftermath:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2016/07/19/why-there-are-so-many-conspiracy-theories-about-the-turkish-coup/
Anyone wondering whether this whole coup thing was a sham, set up so Erdogan could eliminate his political opponents and achieve full autocratic rule? When you think about it:
1. He was out of the country, so couldn't get hurt by the rebels;
2. The military leadership seem very incompetent for many of his top brass;
3. Mobs beat the military? You see a tank charging and stopping before a mob on the BBC reports. Why did it not just flatten them?
4. All the judges removed, now 15,000 teachers. Were the teachers involved in training the next generation of coup leaders? >:D
All in all the more you think it through the more it stinks. I'm beginning to think it was a put up job to entrench Erdogan.
Quote from: Boggit on July 19, 2016, 11:04:21 PM
All in all the more you think it through the more it stinks. I'm beginning to think it was a put up job to entrench Erdogan.
Yup.
The surprisingly quick blacklisting and removal of thousands of teachers, judges, etc definitely points to it being pre-arranged.
Preemptive takeover.
Quote from: Boggit on July 19, 2016, 11:04:21 PM
Anyone wondering whether this whole coup thing was a sham, set up so Erdogan could eliminate his political opponents and achieve full autocratic rule? When you think about it:
1. He was out of the country, so couldn't get hurt by the rebels;
2. The military leadership seem very incompetent for many of his top brass;
3. Mobs beat the military? You see a tank charging and stopping before a mob on the BBC reports. Why did it not just flatten them?
4. All the judges removed, now 15,000 teachers. Were the teachers involved in training the next generation of coup leaders? >:D
All in all the more you think it through the more it stinks. I'm beginning to think it was a put up job to entrench Erdogan.
I don't often go in on conspiracy theories, but this one really is looking to be more and more likely.
Any coup has to immediately take away the government's ability to communicate, and has to swiftly decapitate the government's leadership to be successful. The coup in Turkey didn't even come close to achieving those goals. You'd think that anyone willing to pull a trigger on a coup would at least be partly successful at some of that, even in failure.
It's either the worst planned coup in history, or Erdogan was either behind it, or knew it was coming and let it occur while taking measures to assure it would fail.
Moreover, as they had a lot of top generals and admirals involved you'd think that they already be clued up to the conditions necessary for a successful coup. :idiot2:
It doesn't make much sense to me, other than a put up job.
I agree and also think it was put together by Erdogan.
Col. Ralph Peters was on FOX the night of the coup and said this is not the way a military coup occurs. You don't launch one when the head of Govt. is out of the country, you do it when you know right where he is so you can get to him. I thought he didn't know what he was talking about at the time but maybe he suspected more than he was telling. This has to have Obama thinking, "I wish I had thought of that about a year ago". ;D
Apparently around 100 generals and admirals have been arrested, 3,000 judges, 15,000 teachers, all the Deans of the universities...
I cannot believe that all these senior people would risk a coup without having planned it in great detail. That it failed so quickly begs the question of why it failed so quickly. Either the Turks are staffed with hopeless incompetents, or there was something else going on. The fact that media shows police thugs working these people over, and the fact that the media are saying that the generals are being denied legal representation and process suggests another agenda at work.
At this point I'm going to say there was indeed an actual coup in Turkey... and it looks very successful.
Quote from: Staggerwing on July 20, 2016, 06:30:17 PM
At this point I'm going to say there was indeed an actual coup in Turkey... and it looks very successful.
O0
Quote from: Staggerwing on July 20, 2016, 06:30:17 PM
At this point I'm going to say there was indeed an actual coup in Turkey... and it looks very successful.
You got that right
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/21/world/europe/turkey-erdogan-gulen.html
Quote from: mirth on July 20, 2016, 07:07:31 PM
Quote from: Staggerwing on July 20, 2016, 06:30:17 PM
At this point I'm going to say there was indeed an actual coup in Turkey... and it looks very successful.
You got that right
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/21/world/europe/turkey-erdogan-gulen.html
Crap! There goes Turkey....... >:(
Quote from: Barthheart on July 20, 2016, 07:13:27 PM
Quote from: mirth on July 20, 2016, 07:07:31 PM
Quote from: Staggerwing on July 20, 2016, 06:30:17 PM
At this point I'm going to say there was indeed an actual coup in Turkey... and it looks very successful.
You got that right
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/21/world/europe/turkey-erdogan-gulen.html
Crap! There goes Turkey....... >:(
I have a feeling that 3 month State of Emergency will become permanent.
Quote from: Boggit on July 19, 2016, 11:04:21 PMAnyone wondering whether this whole coup thing was a sham, set up so Erdogan could eliminate his political opponents and achieve full autocratic rule?
This quote from my buddy who knows more about the area than any 4 of us combined
QuoteCarefully weighing my words of estimative probability, I would currently assess: it is very likely that the coup was simply a failed coup; very unlikely (but not impossible) that the regime knew the attempt was coming and took the immense risk of letting it play itself out; and no chance at all that it was an orchestrated "fake coup" as many Erdogan opponents would like to believe.
Maybe, but the Afterparty isn't exactly a good time had by all.
Why can't it be a fake coup?
No matter how thoroughly we convince ourselves we are capable of pulling off something like a fake coup, in most probabilities, we aren't. And even if we were, the end result is still the same: take advantage of the situation to purge your enemies, secure your hold on power and move further in the direction you have already started down.
New name: Islamic State of Erdoganistan. Or, Kurds You're Surrounded-stan.
Quote from: Sir Slash on July 20, 2016, 10:50:42 PM
New name: Islamic State of Erdoganistan. Or, Kurds You're Surrounded-stan.
Once he's solidified the next level of dictatorship I wonder how long it will be until they start pouring it on the Kurds, our only reliable Islamic ally in that area, even further. As if we needed to doubt our alliance with Turkey any more.
Quote from: Gusington on July 20, 2016, 08:44:33 PM
Why can't it be a fake coup?
there is always a lot of bloodshed and you must find people to willingly sacrifice themself as the OPFOR leaders
also the people loving you as the great hero will not be happy when they find out one day.
(and in these days of digital copies of each and everything, everybody has a vidcam always in his pocket as a smartphone and can upload whatever to social media storage anytime and you just cant get those documents deleted, plus also all the intercepted SIGINT by foreign services, who are happy to leak part of their evidence when its fitting to their nations global chessplay of power)
IMHO Erdogan learned about it before, took secret preparations, even forced them to jumpstart (thats why the attempt looked so crude executed) , and then contained it... and so had a 'real' situation, the bloodshed is blamed on the putchist.
And its much harder to prove that he knew its cumming and how precise he knews it.
Quote from: MikeGER on July 21, 2016, 02:31:00 AM
Quote from: Gusington on July 20, 2016, 08:44:33 PM
Why can't it be a fake coup?
there is always a lot of bloodshed and you must find people to willingly sacrifice themself as the OPFOR leaders
also the people loving you as the great hero will not be happy when they find out one day.
(and in these days of digital copies of each and everything, everybody has a vidcam always in his pocket as a smartphone and can upload whatever to social media storage anytime and you just cant get those documents deleted, plus also all the intercepted SIGINT by foreign services, who are happy to leak part of their evidence when its fitting to their nations global chessplay of power)
IMHO Erdogan learned about it before, took secret preparations, even forced them to jumpstart (thats why the attempt looked so crude executed) , and then contained it... and so had a 'real' situation, the bloodshed is blamed on the putchist.
And its much harder to prove that he knew its cumming and how precise he knews it.
If you're right then the aftermath suits Erdogan very well. His Kristallnacht moment to solidify his position?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht
Quote from: Boggit on July 22, 2016, 03:51:21 PM
If you're right then the aftermath suits Erdogan very well. His Kristallnacht moment to solidify his position?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht)
I was initially skeptical that this was anything more than a poorly executed coup attempt, but I'm becoming persuaded that this was Erdogan's Reichstag Fire. Whether he planned it or learned about it beforehand and is ruthlessly exploiting it I don't know, but I do know this isn't going to be good for Turkey or the region.
Quote from: panzerde on July 22, 2016, 08:07:16 PM
Quote from: Boggit on July 22, 2016, 03:51:21 PM
If you're right then the aftermath suits Erdogan very well. His Kristallnacht moment to solidify his position?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht)
I was initially skeptical that this was anything more than a poorly executed coup attempt, but I'm becoming persuaded that this was Erdogan's Reichstag Fire. Whether he planned it or learned about it beforehand and is ruthlessly exploiting it I don't know, but I do know this isn't going to be good for Turkey or the region.
Watch out for him claiming that Iraqi and Syrian Kurds are attacking Turkey, as an excuse to invade & occupy some parts of Syria and/or Iraq.
The NATO leadership would be frozen, falling over themselves attempting to keep Erdogan appeased but doing little except whine about it. Per usual. Erdogan's regime very likely knows this would be the case, too, which makes it dangerously tempting. Look at Russia's recent annexations as proof it would work - and they weren't even allied with other NATO countries. A little sliver here, a little sliver there.
Initially a small land grab may work better for Turkey than it did for Russia because of the geopolitical complexity of it.
Unfortunately, the land they grab already has people on it. And I am afraid the new masters will not show forbearance to the old inhabitants.
Like they did in northern Cyprus. Which incidentally has remained an occupied territory since 1974. Many Cypriots have lost property stolen by the colonist Turks there. :knuppel2:
Erdogan's power grabs continues...he's shutting down at least 130 media outlets (http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2016/07/27/turkey-n2198868). Sounds like a "democracy" to me...
It looks like Erdogan is getting super sensitive as the Sultan of the New Ottoman Empire... :o
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2920116/Former-Miss-Turkey-26-arrest-posting-funny-satirical-poem-criticised-country-s-president.html
I wonder what the future is for normal secular Turks...? :(
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/erdogan-hints-state-of-emergency-can-be-extended-to-a-year/ar-BBwNvqn?OCID=ansmsnnews11
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_freedom_in_Turkey
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_arrested_journalists_in_Turkey
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Turkey
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Turkey
Turkey apparently wants to go down the same road as Venezuela under Chavez.
He's trying to get ahead of Obama who was planning to run for his job after January. ;)
update
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/Erdogans_Turkey
Good article... it will be interesting to see what happens... I expect that Erdogan will get what he wants and Turkey becomes a Presidential Republic.
Quote from: Barthheart on April 16, 2017, 08:20:49 AM
Good article... it will be interesting to see what happens... I expect that Erdogan will get what he wants and become President.
I expect he'll eventually get his Islamist dictatorship one way or another, even if the vote somehow miraculously comes out against his power play.
Erdoganstan on the way.
And he has the hypocrisy to label the Dutch as Nazi's while he forges ahead with his project for dictatorial power. It speaks volumes about the state of democracy in Turkey that he has got his way, but I guess muzzling the opposition was a good way to do it. I wonder whether I was initially right about the "coup", and in reality it was the Kristalnacht moment for Erdogan?