Russia's War Against Ukraine

[FarAway Sooner]

Interesting article on the GLSDB.  While I love the notion of longer range, as well as the ability to launch 6 at a time, it feels to me like a non-cheap weapon.  If I read the link you posted above right, the price for the extra 40-50 miles of range on the GLSDB is an 85% reduction in warhead size.

Being able to throw 37 pound warheads an extra 40 miles deeper behind enemy lines with a little more accuracy will certainly serve a purpose, and it'll be very useful for us to gather some concrete intel on real-world performance.  But I've got to think that there's a big difference between hitting a train (or a train station) with a 227-pound warhead versus a 37-pound warhead.  I'm out of my depth here, so all I can really do is speculate.

The West has shown a willingness to sacrifice as long as it doesn't cost us anything.  If China starts more obviously arming the Russians, we'll see how much resolve we find.  It's complicated by the fact that South America and Africa are both indifferent to the Russian invasion of Ukraine--not so much because they think it's a good thing, but because they can't figure out how it's any different than the last 15 episodes happening elsewhere in the world that the West managed to overlook with a deafening yawn.

India has become the leading importer of Russian gas.  While I think it's not a great choice, I can't exactly fault India for not feeling extroardinary gratitude to the English for 270+ years of colonial rule.

[Sir Slash]

China's not concerned about helping Russia. China's concerned about helping China. To that end, giving Lethal Aid to Putin in exchange for more of Russia's vast natural resources seems like a really good deal for them and something Mr. Peng would consider whether we like it or not. What would it take to stop him?

[GDS_Starfury]

it'll be very useful for us to gather some concrete intel on real-world performance.

actually no, the SDB has been operational since 2006.  the abilities of both systems are well known.
while it will be the proving ground for this combination, Im not to worried about the overall effectiveness.

[FarAway Sooner]

it'll be very useful for us to gather some concrete intel on real-world performance.

actually no, the SDB has been operational since 2006.  the abilities of both systems are well known.
while it will be the proving ground for this combination, Im not to worried about the overall effectiveness.

You're right, I was getting confused about whether the GLSDB used SDB or SDB-2 warheads.  Upon further reading, it also turns out that the 37-pound warhead is apparently embedded in an AP-type round made to punch through up to six feet of concrete, but it can also carry the HE warhead mounted in the more traditional MLRS round fired by HIMARS.

I wonder if the Russians have learned the habit of storing their ammo in decentralized locations beyond the traditional range of HIMARS?  If so, the resulting friction is probably already figured into their logistical activities.  I also wonder how close the Russian trains are getting to the front these days.

[Pete Dero]

https://www.bluesnews.com/s/257008/ukraine_s-atomic-heart-attack

The Government of Ukraine plans to petition Valve, Microsoft, and Sony to remove Atomic Heart from digital stores in Ukraine, and will ask platform holders to consider "limiting distribution" of the game in other countries. At heart of the matter are the new first-person shooter's Russian roots. There are allegations that sales of the game directly benefit the Russian government and that the game is possibly being used to harvest user data. Ukrainian tech website 'Dev.au' first reported on this, and PCGamesN has a statement in English directly from the Ukraine government:

    "Regarding the situation with the release of the game Atomic Heart, which has Russian roots and romanticises communist ideology and the Soviet Union, The Ministry of Digital Transformation of Ukraine will send an official letter to Sony, Microsoft, and Valve requesting a ban on selling digital versions of this game in Ukraine," says Ukraine's Deputy Minister of Digital Transformation, Alex Bornyakov.

    "We also urge limiting the distribution of this game in other countries due to its toxicity, potential data collection of users, and the potential use of money raised from game purchases to conduct a war against Ukraine."

    "According to media reports, the game's development was funded by Russian enterprises," the statement continues. "Therefore, we call for all users worldwide to avoid this game. We also want to emphasise that the game developers have not publicly condemned the Putin regime and the bloody war that Russia has unleashed against Ukraine."

[Gusington]

Wow. I had been looking forward to Atomic Heart but this, and some less than stellar reviews, have put me off.

[Jarhead0331]

All of the above strikes me as total bullshit. The developer is international with headquarters in Cyprus and the game has been in development since well before 2018. I haven't seen anything in any of the videos or press I've reviewed showing a blatant "romanticizing" of communist ideology or the Soviet Union. and quite frankly, so what if it does? We're back to banning things that don't align with a certain agenda on the basis that doing so makes it "toxic" and people can't f*cking think for themselves anymore.

Outrageous. As far as data harvesting and giving money to support the war, you better have definitive proof before making those allegations.

It overall appears to be a very good game. It's part of game pass and I will play it eventually. I guess that makes me a communist sympathizer. 

[JasonPratt]

If there's one thing that game DOESN'T do, it's romanticize communist ideology and the Soviet Union. The whole point of the narrative of the game, almost constantly reinforced, is that romanticizing (and much moreso promoting and instituting) those things is (and was) a nightmarishly bad idea. It's practically like saying the Bioshock series (which it very intentionally resembles) romanticizes Randian positivism. If anything, communists in general and Soviets in particular might have a case for accusing the game of demonizing them unfairly! (Instead of only fairly demonizing them.  )

Admittedly I haven't played the game, nor bought it, nor do I intend to. But I've seen enough gameplay and story footage to understand this is a crazy evaluation of the game. Less than 10 minutes should be sufficient.

As to the other potentially much worse technical accusations, I don't know anything about them. But I do know how stories work. 

[Jarhead0331]

The more I ruminate on this, the angrier I get. A lot of people from a lot of different places worked really hard for a very long time on this game and stories like this pretty much destroy all those efforts veritably overnight. Not to pick on Gus, but look at his knee-jerk reaction...its "put him off". The same probably goes for thousands of others who have been exposed to this story. Once it is out there, the damage is done, regardless of its truth or falsity.

I am so hard-pressed to believe that the developers of this game were sitting around a table in a dark smoke-filled room raising a glass of vodka to the old regime and wondering out loud how they can help Putin restore Soviet glory. It is so far-fetched and sets such a dangerous precedent.

I guess we can no longer play Wolfenstein games because William Joseph "B.J." Blazkowicz is a Jew with ties to Israel, and well, Israel is an apartheid state and all things associated with it should be boycotted. Six Days in Fallujah!? Ban it! Limit its distribution! The American Marines are fighting terrorists in the Middle East who are Muslim and this is toxic. It promotes anti-Islamic sentiment and hatred and must be censored and cancelled.

Aren't the Ukrainians fighting for freedom against oppression from tyranny? What is the point of it all if in the pursuit of that noble cause the very freedoms they are fighting for get sacrificed?

[Pete Dero]

Outrageous.  As far as data harvesting and giving money to support the war, you better have definitive proof before making those allegations.

I don't know what the truth is.  These links (Ukrainian company website) give more info and some indications.  Not the definitive proof.

https://ain.capital/2023/01/25/russian-developers-of-atomic-heart-collect-gamers-data-for-the-fsb-via-its-website/
https://ain.capital/2023/01/17/atomic-heart-will-be-released-in-february-its-a-russian-game-backed-by-ex-gazprom/
https://ain.capital/2023/02/22/the-apolitical-russian-game-atomic-heart-makes-fun-of-the-killings-of-ukrainians/

Especially the indications in the 3rd link might seem to be quite far-fetched, but I understand that all this can be sensitive in Ukraine.

[Sir Slash]

I know nothing of the game but I am against, 'Knee-Jerk' reactions, they're usually wrong many times, picking on Gus, though it is kind of fun, and banning almost anything because of it's ideology or political view. Free Speach is NOT just for the side of the fence you are on. 

[FarAway Sooner]

Agreed on Free Speech.  I think we're missing an important distinction here that's at the heart of the critique for "cancel culture" and such phenomenon.  There's a difference between government making something illegal, versus private groups asking other private groups (firms or consumers) to boycott a product.  That doesn't make it right, but it does make it different.

Part of the problem right now is that so much of the news we are fed daily (by content publishers, internet algorithms and our own sharing habits) is either somewhat or entirely misleading.  We live in an age that cares more about news that spawns strong, visceral reactions than we care about about news that is truthful and factual. 

Media has never been perfect, but it's harder than it's ever been to validate what we read.  So we end up trusting the media sources we agree with most often, as opposed to the ones that seem to tell us the truth most often.

Jardhead's concerns are legit.

[FarAway Sooner]

The more I ruminate on this, the angrier I get. A lot of people from a lot of different places worked really hard for a very long time on this game and stories like this pretty much destroy all those efforts veritably overnight. Not to pick on Gus, but look at his knee-jerk reaction...its "put him off". The same probably goes for thousands of others who have been exposed to this story. Once it is out there, the damage is done, regardless of its truth or falsity.

I am so hard-pressed to believe that the developers of this game were sitting around a table in a dark smoke-filled room raising a glass of vodka to the old regime and wondering out loud how they can help Putin restore Soviet glory. It is so far-fetched and sets such a dangerous precedent.

I guess we can no longer play Wolfenstein games because William Joseph "B.J." Blazkowicz is a Jew with ties to Israel, and well, Israel is an apartheid state and all things associated with it should be boycotted. Six Days in Fallujah!? Ban it! Limit its distribution! The American Marines are fighting terrorists in the Middle East who are Muslim and this is toxic. It promotes anti-Islamic sentiment and hatred and must be censored and cancelled.

I get your frustration here, but we need to be careful about conflating various issues.  "Cancel culture" has a lot of problems, but among the biggest is the notion that words can be so traumatizing--so dangerous--that we are best served if we limit or prohibit their usage.  You see this lots of places (liberal universities get the most press, but they DO NOT have a monopoly on it).  The folks at FIRE articulate this better than I ever could.  If you're not already familiar with it, you should check it out sometime.

I think that's a different issue than whether the producers of this game have legitimate ties to pro-Putin interests.  We ought to be able to discuss that in a rational and fact-based manner, but even that seems to be getting harder.

Aren't the Ukrainians fighting for freedom against oppression from tyranny? What is the point of it all if in the pursuit of that noble cause the very freedoms they are fighting for get sacrificed?

I'm vaguely reminded of Tipper Gore coming out against explicit lyrics in rock music in the late 80s as a similarly misguided idea. 

At this stage, I don't know the exact origins of these allegations in the first place.  Of course, when it comes to repressing basic freedoms of people during wartime, America has a history of being overzealous there too (think of Japanese-American internment camps as just one example).  So, if some Ukrainian interests are over-reacting to this game, I understand why.

[GDS_Starfury]

My daily go to game is world of tanks. at the start of the hostilities in the Ukraine that company, wargaming, made the decision to sell off all the assets that it had in Belarus and cut all ties with Russia and Belarus and split the company up into regional sections.  ot was a wise decision.

[Skoop]

I think virpil based in belorus did that as well.  When everything got weird for them, they moved assets to the west.  Now there's a US store.  The factory is still in belorus though.