Trouble in Mosul

[skeptical.platypus]

Still, trying to respect national sovereignty insofar as possible (if not quite at all costs) is a big reason why we left. Which makes our talk about acting to foster and preserve human rights in the area sound like rubbish: we must have gone in and then left again for our own expediency, right? We've only proven (on this calculus) that we weren't seriously committed to helping the Iraqi people as people.

I agree, with the exception of pretending that we've been wronged by inaccurate accusations of our intent. Pretending that is like giving credence to 911 False Flag theorists.

I only meant that whatever questions might be about our intentions, what we finally did can only lend weight to the answer(s) that our motives had nothing to do with helping the Iraqi people.

Naturally had we stayed, there would still be challenges about our intentions -- there always would be given the area and the situation -- but at least we could point to a ongoing track record of dedication in trying to do something to improve their lives. Even if someone said we only did it for their oil or to line the pockets of industrialists back home, we could answer yes but they're a state of our nation with all the rights (and responsibilities) of being a state, representation in our Congress, etc. Texans might think the rest of the US (or a cabal of particular states) is only exploiting Texas for oil and resources, but that former republic has long had opportunities to contribute to and benefit from a fraternal cooperation.

It was a failed attempt even before we complicated it with aspirations of maintaining national sovereignty. Of course, it might have been a wildly different story if our first act post invasion wasn't to ensure that the best armed and possibly most qualified iraqis to establish national sovereignty were outlawed from participation.

Generally agreed with the rest, but I can see why this also happened from a perspective of setting up a puppet state. Those people weren't going to be our puppet, and under our overall post-war strategic plan they would have had no incentive to cooperate with us in ways any different than Saddam had 'cooperated' with us.

Assuming 'puppet' was the (or a major) goal, that choice makes sense. But then the problem was "'puppet' being the (or a major) goal".

Very good points, all. I wonder if you might have been going in the same direction as I have been with the observation that things might have actually been better if we HAD employed the traditional 19th century imperial model. My direction is that GW1 and GW2 may be history's most recent argument that if you are going to use military force, the only goals that can possibly be achieved short of a "total war" approach are short term at best (ala GW1, a military defanged, but despot still in place.)

I suspect that many of the military and thinkers here might agree with that assessment. Which very much should direct our military force decision making, because democracies don't want to wield total war. And governments seem far to willing to commit to "lesser war."

Btw,  -- off topic on this reply, but on topic to some of endfire's and centurion posts -- I caught a CBS news reporter from Iraqi last night who talked about growing iranian assistance in the protection of Baghdad against ISIS. The Law of Unintended Consequences, Iranian Variant: When you fight your neighbor to a stalemate for decades, and then your Great Satan comes in and does just about everything it can in it's power to hand that neighbor to you on a persian silver platter.

If ISIS takes Samaraa, what do people think they will do to the Shia mosque there? I want to call it the golden dome, but I think I am mixing mosque metaphors.

[skeptical.platypus]

Actually I meant I can't see China doing it (despite their very interesting stealth-colonialism policies lately) depending on how invested they are politically with Iran right now. But I honestly can't remember how much that is.

Doesn't China have some interesting investments in Ukraine ala stealth-colonialism? Between that and their increasing interest in me affairs, I gotta wonder if there are some Select Committees on Hua-Yi bitching about uncomfortable bedfellows right about now.

I know it's extraordinarily unlikely US boots will officially be on the ground, but spec forces fighting ISIS in iraq alongside iranian revolutionary guards makes me want to go catch that anniversary showing of Ghostbusters, if only for the "cats and dogs, living together -- real fire and brimstone kind of stuff" line.

[Centurion40]

I know it's extraordinarily unlikely US boots will officially be on the ground, but spec forces fighting ISIS in iraq alongside iranian revolutionary guards makes me want to go catch that anniversary showing of Ghostbusters, if only for the "cats and dogs, living together -- real fire and brimstone kind of stuff" line.

QFT!

[Gusington]

I think I have to go watch Ghostbusters now too.

[OJsDad]

Better yet, a three way fight between ISIS, Iranians and US.  No that could get real interesting.

[skeptical.platypus]

Better yet, a three way fight between ISIS, Iranians and US.  No that could get real interesting.

Why stop there? Iraqi's can use kurdish shock troops to charge Mosul. Erdogan would love to shock some kurdish troops. Maybe some Putin Hinds can sneak over the border and help out their iranian buddies. Which sounds like a great time for Israel to make a few strategic bombing runs.

[Centurion40]

Better yet, a three way fight between ISIS, Iranians and US.  No that could get real interesting.

Why stop there? Iraqi's can use kurdish shock troops to charge Mosul. Erdogan would love to shock some kurdish troops. Maybe some Putin Hinds can sneak over the border and help out their iranian buddies. Which sounds like a great time for Israel to make a few strategic bombing runs.

Don't forget Israel! Find some way to drag in the Israelis (maybe the Chinese for the cherry-on-top) and we have the makings of Armageddon!

[JasonPratt]

Well, not strictly Armageddon, but still. WW1 21st century style. Yeesh.

500 Marines went in this morning for some purpose, or so I saw on CNN while passing by. I joked with Mom that they'd sort things out. 

[Gusington]

500 US Marines went back into Iraq? Maybe they were sent to protect US embassies, etc.

[Barthheart]

ISIS - all I can think of is Archer.

This is all that jumps to my mind....

[Centurion40]

500 US Marines went back into Iraq? Maybe they were sent to protect US embassies, etc.

Yeah, that is what was reported on CNN-HLN this morning.

[skeptical.platypus]

Better yet, a three way fight between ISIS, Iranians and US.  No that could get real interesting.

Why stop there? Iraqi's can use kurdish shock troops to charge Mosul. Erdogan would love to shock some kurdish troops. Maybe some Putin Hinds can sneak over the border and help out their iranian buddies. Which sounds like a great time for Israel to make a few strategic bombing runs.

Don't forget Israel! Find some way to drag in the Israelis (maybe the Chinese for the cherry-on-top) and we have the makings of Armageddon!

Way ahead of you. "Which sounds like a great time for Israel to make a few strategic bombing runs." ;)

[pawelj]

Better yet, a three way fight between ISIS, Iranians and US.  No that could get real interesting.

Why stop there? Iraqi's can use kurdish shock troops to charge Mosul. Erdogan would love to shock some kurdish troops. Maybe some Putin Hinds can sneak over the border and help out their iranian buddies. Which sounds like a great time for Israel to make a few strategic bombing runs.

Don't forget Israel! Find some way to drag in the Israelis (maybe the Chinese for the cherry-on-top) and we have the makings of Armageddon!

Way ahead of you. "Which sounds like a great time for Israel to make a few strategic bombing runs." ;)

Israel is very unlikely to get involved in Iraq.

[JasonPratt]

Israel is very unlikely to get involved in Iraq.

"We don't know what happened to that company of insurgents, sir. Suddenly we hear screaming and prayers on their vox, the next minute they're all dead!"

"Son, as far as we're concerned... God killed them. And that's all anyone is going to say on that matter, understand?"

"Nine millimeter acts of God, so noted, yes sir!"

[Centurion40]

Better yet, a three way fight between ISIS, Iranians and US.  No that could get real interesting.

Why stop there? Iraqi's can use kurdish shock troops to charge Mosul. Erdogan would love to shock some kurdish troops. Maybe some Putin Hinds can sneak over the border and help out their iranian buddies. Which sounds like a great time for Israel to make a few strategic bombing runs.

Don't forget Israel! Find some way to drag in the Israelis (maybe the Chinese for the cherry-on-top) and we have the makings of Armageddon!

Way ahead of you. "Which sounds like a great time for Israel to make a few strategic bombing runs." ;)

Israel is very unlikely to get involved in Iraq.

... again, until a new Iraqi dictator starts a new nuclear program.