Generic Nautical Problems One: Bolshevicks!

Started by MengJiao, February 11, 2022, 04:34:13 PM

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MengJiao

 As part of my miniature boardgaming project to look into naval games that cover 1880-1945 or so, I had a kind of 1919-esque scenario where a Franco-British force in China has serious trouble with
enemy destroyers sneaking into their aircraft carrier haven by night (shades of Port Arthur).  Of course in 1919 in China the only reasonable enemy would be fanatical Bolshevicks with destroyers to spare (this actually makes more sense that it seems since most navies seem to have had major mutinies around 1918-1919).  So...easy peazy...defend the haven and see what happens.

  The attacking destroyers did very poorly using the Fear God and Dreadnought rules...easy to spot a formation of them...turn on the searchlights and boom no one got hit by torpedoes except the attacking destroyers (bad luck or what?).  Plus your average light cruiser in 1919 has about a 50-50 chance it would seem of sinking a destroyer in three minutes at close range (under 2000 yds).   This seemed grim, but a spot check of the situation in the Stations Manned and Ready (SMR) rules, tables and annexes suggested that was about right.  Hmmm I says to myself.  The only advantages in SMR for the attacking destroyers were not much help -- slightly harder to spot and stay targetted, somewhat better chances of hitting with torpedoes and possibly not sinking right away since in SMR the crew can save a wreck from becoming a complete wreck and in any case -- short of a magazine explosion -- the wreck would still be a wreck and not vanish by sinking right away.

Here's the set up at the point I gave up on the Bolshy attack:


Tripoli

For what its worth, at Jutland the Germans fired 89 (or 107) torpedos and achieved 2 hits.  (HMS SHARK and HMS Marlborough).  The British fired somewhere in the neighborhood of 80 torpedoes, hitting the Seydlitz, V29 and Frauenlob, Rostock and Pommern (1 or 2 hits).  Of note, the British torpedos were primarily fired at night and at close range, making them more difficult to detect and avoid.

Sources: https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1922/may/10/jutland-battle-german-torpedoes,
https://www.jutland1916.com/tactics-and-technologies-4/torpedoes-2/#:~:text=On%20the%20day%20of%20battle,426%20out%20of%20the%20826.
https://bjmh.gold.ac.uk/article/download/757/879
"Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?" -Abraham Lincoln

MengJiao

#2
Quote from: Tripoli on February 11, 2022, 05:49:10 PM
For what its worth, at Jutland the Germans fired 89 (or 107) torpedos and achieved 2 hits.  (HMS SHARK and HMS Marlborough).  The British fired somewhere in the neighborhood of 80 torpedoes, hitting the Seydlitz, V29 and Frauenlob, Rostock and Pommern (1 or 2 hits).  Of note, the British torpedos were primarily fired at night and at close range, making them more difficult to detect and avoid.

Sources: https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1922/may/10/jutland-battle-german-torpedoes,
https://www.jutland1916.com/tactics-and-technologies-4/torpedoes-2/#:~:text=On%20the%20day%20of%20battle,426%20out%20of%20the%20826.
https://bjmh.gold.ac.uk/article/download/757/879

   Wow!  The Jutland1916 site is amazing.  Apparently one problem for German torpedo hit rates is that 10 of their biggest destroyers left the night action and went home via the Skaggerak taking 57 torpedoes with them as Gordon notes in The Rules of the Game.  I looked for that in the tacks on the site, but didn't see it at first (its in the last German chart, 36).

   A lot of smoke and gunfire on this one though:
https://www.jutland1916.com/wp-content/uploads/27.jpg

   You can see the 10 destroyers exiting via the Skaggerak on this one:

https://www.jutland1916.com/wp-content/uploads/36.jpg

Tripoli

I war gamed the North Sea in WWI a couple of years ago using the Steam and Iron game (see  here: http://www.grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=16935.msg444918#msg444918 )  If I recall, the results  of that game were fairly historical as far as torpedos were concerned.  At close range, they were deadly, but at long range (9,000+ yards) they weren't much of a problem.
"Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?" -Abraham Lincoln

MengJiao

Quote from: Tripoli on February 11, 2022, 09:36:43 PM
I war gamed the North Sea in WWI a couple of years ago using the Steam and Iron game (see  here: http://www.grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=16935.msg444918#msg444918 )  If I recall, the results  of that game were fairly historical as far as torpedos were concerned.  At close range, they were deadly, but at long range (9,000+ yards) they weren't much of a problem.

   Fantastic AAR.  All I can add to the simulated torpedo database is that:  Using Fear God and Dread Nought rules, tables and annexes, there were 3 hits out of 20 launched at under 2000 yds at night.  The writers of the SMR rules freely confess that they unashamedly upped the chances of torpedo hits so as to reproduce the mental world of 1880-1945.  In other respects the SMR tables and ship data agree that in 1919 the average small destroyer would not do well against a light cruiser even at close range at night.  Of course in 1919, the average destroyer was still very small (under 1000 tons, more the size of a WWII submarine or mine sweeper or corvette).  By 1940 or so destroyers were at least two times bigger, though I guess still without much chance against a light cruiser of the time which would also be a bigger ship.  I haven't gotten past 1919 in looking into miniature/boardgames for the period.  In fact, I think I'm going back to 1905 to look into transitional rangefinder gunnery.

Tripoli

That probably is fair to increase the chances of torpedos in order to reproduce the mind set of WWI commanding officers regarding their threat.  I'm actually surprised that more emphasis wasn't placed on night attacks in the post-WWI training, given the relative success of the British night attack at Jutland.  Probably naval officers regarded the training as too dangerous due to collision risk.  Especially since there weren't going to be any more wars... ::)
"Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?" -Abraham Lincoln

MengJiao

#6
Quote from: Tripoli on February 12, 2022, 09:55:17 AM
That probably is fair to increase the chances of torpedos in order to reproduce the mind set of WWI commanding officers regarding their threat.  I'm actually surprised that more emphasis wasn't placed on night attacks in the post-WWI training, given the relative success of the British night attack at Jutland.  Probably naval officers regarded the training as too dangerous due to collision risk.  Especially since there weren't going to be any more wars... ::)

  The Royal Navy at least (and the Japanese of course) did do at least some night training.  The weirdly successful night aerial torpedo attack on the Italian fleet in Taranto suggests some sustained interest in training at night with torpedoes.  And only the Royal Navy and the Imperial Navy seem to have started out in WWII with good torpedoes.  I guess the Mark Xs in US S boats were okay, too.

  The official UK history of the Russo-Japanese war (I guess the Brits decided their ally needed one "corrected in Tokyo" in 1910) says that the first night surprise attack on the Russian fleet in Port Arthur got 3 hits for 18 torpedoes launched -- pretty good for 1904!