Author Topic: One half of Plataea (479 BC ) again  (Read 1623 times)

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Offline MengJiao

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One half of Plataea (479 BC ) again
« on: December 16, 2019, 06:30:47 AM »


  Plataea is the biggest scenario in the Hoplites system.  I'm going to play the Western half of it again
(with a lot of modifications) and see what happens.

The scene is that most of the Greek city-states have assembled an army (in the aftermath of the Persian naval defeat and the
 Persian obliteration of the city of Athens -- tho not of the Athenians who were on an island becoming more
and more irate),
 to face the Persian army but have attempted a night withdrawal.

The Athenians are in place as the rear-guard, confident in their archers and skirmishers' being able to hold off
the Persian cavalry and all the more so since (historically) they had killed the Persian cavalry commander days ago. 
For all scenarios he is resurrected to give the Persians a chance.  However, he is assumed to be off to the east
facing the Spartans in this case.
 
 The withdrawal has not gone as planned and there was a hoplite-jam at Plataea of (green) Corinthians and so on.
 To the east, the
 Spartans and their allies have begun belatedly to withdraw at sunrise only to find the Persians have gone over to the
 attack to exploit the very obvious disarray and confusion of the Greeks.  The Athenians are the rear-guard, and the
 "Thebans and Macedonians under Median Command" finds them still in their positions.
 Thus, here, he Athenians face the Macedonians and their allies and the Medes.  Historically, both the Medes and
the Macedonians attacked later than the main Persian force and left the battle relatively undamaged.  I'm assuming there
 are more Thebans and they are under the effective command of Melon (a Theban) with the Medes as a subcommand.
 Historically,
the Medes seem to have abandoned the Persians and left the field with the Thebans and Macedonians.  I'm assuming
 more Thebans
in the battle array would have pushed the Medes into attacking.
So all of the forces here did engage (and the Corinthians and so on probably suffered the heaviest loses on the Greek side
when the Thessalian cavalry caught them marching up) and the Persian-allied Medes, Thebans and Macedonians
 might have defeated the
 Athenians and their allies.

 Historically, the heaviest Greek loses were in this half of the battle when the Theban cavalry caught the
Corinthians and others (all in green here) trying to deploy out of the Hoplite jam on the Oreo north of Plataea.

Here is the initial set up (East is at the top of the map):


Offline MengJiao

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Re: One half of Plataea (479 BC ) again
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2019, 06:11:25 AM »

  I'm assuming
 more Thebans
in the battle array would have pushed the Medes into attacking.


  So the Thebans are deploying their hoplites on the Medean right as the Thebans (ahistorically) push everybody into trying to help the Persians (who are off to the east attacking the Spartans) as Turn 2 gets underway:


Offline ArizonaTank

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Re: One half of Plataea (479 BC ) again
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2019, 09:21:20 AM »
I played the full scenario with a buddy of mine over Vassal. It took us a few months and many sessions to play it. But it was a great time. I really love the system.

While playing, we looked up the battlefield on Google street view.  Here is the link. From approximately the center of the Greek lines, looking towards the Persian camp on the high ground in the distance. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.219385,23.289994,3a,75y,333.36h,79.78t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sh1RuqHuZtuHzxf0qnbSdog!2e0
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Rated as the 2nd most valuable player of all time by Bill James.

Offline MengJiao

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Re: One half of Plataea (479 BC ) again
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2019, 10:05:37 AM »
I played the full scenario with a buddy of mine over Vassal. It took us a few months and many sessions to play it. But it was a great time. I really love the system.

While playing, we looked up the battlefield on Google street view.  Here is the link. From approximately the center of the Greek lines, looking towards the Persian camp on the high ground in the distance. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.219385,23.289994,3a,75y,333.36h,79.78t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sh1RuqHuZtuHzxf0qnbSdog!2e0


wow!  totally cool!  I took a drive to the west on that road (in Google) to look north from the Athenian rear-guard position.

Yep...I think Hoplite is a big improvement over the old Great battles system. 

I'm going to look for the temple site in Google.

So....those tall, dark cyresses might mark the site of a temple (now probably a Church and or a graveyard):

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.2140045,23.27429,3a,75y,179.15h,79.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soOV1J97mtrhEpD13J-AB8w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 10:14:16 AM by MengJiao »

Offline MengJiao

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Re: One half of Plataea (479 BC ) again
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2019, 03:35:33 PM »
I played the full scenario with a buddy of mine over Vassal. It took us a few months and many sessions to play it. But it was a great time. I really love the system.

While playing, we looked up the battlefield on Google street view.  Here is the link. From approximately the center of the Greek lines, looking towards the Persian camp on the high ground in the distance. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.219385,23.289994,3a,75y,333.36h,79.78t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sh1RuqHuZtuHzxf0qnbSdog!2e0


wow!  totally cool!  I took a drive to the west on that road (in Google) to look north from the Athenian rear-guard position.

Yep...I think Hoplite is a big improvement over the old Great battles system. 

I'm going to look for the temple site in Google.

So....those tall, dark cyresses might mark the site of a temple (now probably a Church and or a graveyard):

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.2140045,23.27429,3a,75y,179.15h,79.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soOV1J97mtrhEpD13J-AB8w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

  This is the gate to the Church of Saint Nectarious, close to where the Temple of Hera, (just under the modern "Skydiving Center" )would have been in the center of the area (the "Island of the Oreo") to which the Greeks were trying to withdraw when the Spartans got off to a slow start and the Persians attacked.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.2166288,23.2634613,3a,75y,39.08h,90t/data=!3m9!1e1!3m7!1sTMHv0uH1vZ9fnn0lzOdH2w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!9m2!1b1!2i21

Offline ArizonaTank

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Re: One half of Plataea (479 BC ) again
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2019, 06:48:21 PM »
I played the full scenario with a buddy of mine over Vassal. It took us a few months and many sessions to play it. But it was a great time. I really love the system.

While playing, we looked up the battlefield on Google street view.  Here is the link. From approximately the center of the Greek lines, looking towards the Persian camp on the high ground in the distance. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.219385,23.289994,3a,75y,333.36h,79.78t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sh1RuqHuZtuHzxf0qnbSdog!2e0


wow!  totally cool!  I took a drive to the west on that road (in Google) to look north from the Athenian rear-guard position.

Yep...I think Hoplite is a big improvement over the old Great battles system. 

I'm going to look for the temple site in Google.

So....those tall, dark cyresses might mark the site of a temple (now probably a Church and or a graveyard):

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.2140045,23.27429,3a,75y,179.15h,79.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soOV1J97mtrhEpD13J-AB8w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

  This is the gate to the Church of Saint Nectarious, close to where the Temple of Hera, (just under the modern "Skydiving Center" )would have been in the center of the area (the "Island of the Oreo") to which the Greeks were trying to withdraw when the Spartans got off to a slow start and the Persians attacked.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.2166288,23.2634613,3a,75y,39.08h,90t/data=!3m9!1e1!3m7!1sTMHv0uH1vZ9fnn0lzOdH2w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!9m2!1b1!2i21

Good stuff! I love being able to look over the actual ground. Makes the game less abstract.
Honus Wagner
"The Flying Dutchman"
Shortstop: Pittsburgh Pirates 1900-1917
Rated as the 2nd most valuable player of all time by Bill James.

Offline MengJiao

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Re: One half of Plataea (479 BC ) again
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2019, 08:58:13 AM »

  So the Thebans are deploying their hoplites on the Medean right as the Thebans (ahistorically) push everybody into trying to help the Persians (who are off to the east attacking the Spartans) as Turn 2 gets underway:

  As Turn 3 opens (about 45 minutes into the battle), the Athenians and their allies are starting to gain the upper hand, I think.  The big surprise is that the Athenian cavalry got a lot of help from hoplites and light infantry and avoiding being wiped out:


Offline MengJiao

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Re: One half of Plataea (479 BC ) again
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2020, 04:57:12 PM »

  As Turn 3 opens (about 45 minutes into the battle), the Athenians and their allies are starting to gain the upper hand, I think.  The big surprise is that the Athenian cavalry got a lot of help from hoplites and light infantry and avoiding being wiped out:

  Almost Turn 4 and the Corinthian thing seems to have happened again.  Just as with the last 2 times I ran part of this battle, the Corinthians deploy into the messy center and do some major damage:


Offline MengJiao

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Re: One half of Plataea (479 BC ) again
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2020, 11:48:44 AM »

  As Turn 3 opens (about 45 minutes into the battle), the Athenians and their allies are starting to gain the upper hand, I think.  The big surprise is that the Athenian cavalry got a lot of help from hoplites and light infantry and avoiding being wiped out:

  Almost Turn 4 and the Corinthian thing seems to have happened again.  Just as with the last 2 times I ran part of this battle, the Corinthians deploy into the messy center and do some major damage:

   Turn 4:  After a close battle on the Athenian Left, the combined pressure of the Corinthians and the Athenian Archers pushed the Macedonian and Theban Hoplite cohesion barely over the edge -- a marginal win.  Much as happened historically, the Medes and their allies could probably just walk away having accepted a set back and looking for ways to adjust their relations with the central elites of the Persian Empire.  What seems to have ended up causing the Persian withdrawal from Greece historically -- the plundering of their camp and a massive loss of prestige -- would also presumably have occured in this case.