Hearts of Iron IV Reviews?

[solops]

I don't have the game, so I do not know. I am looking for a reason to buy it. Generic units and 3D icons in place of NATO symbols are automatic, No-buy red flags for me in a historical wargame on this scale. If they can be changed in the game-set-up or by modding, that makes me think maybe I might buy the game....provided the engine and AI are adequate. Right now, the game sounds iffy. And I really do not care about a hypothetical future market. As far as I am concerned, I am their market now, and if they cannot sell it to me now they won't survive to market to some hypothetical future crowd, whose tastes are unknown. If they are headed for a Panzer General or Order of Battle type game, forget it. Not interested. Tried a few, don't like them.

[SirAndrewD]

Didn't know that Black Ice added full counters.  Great info.  I wasn't sure they could be made to work on the HoI 4 3d map.

The units aren't as generic as previous HoI units, thanks to the equipment modification features.  However, even with the Sunflower patch the AI isn't great at using those features to their full advantage. 

The biggest problems with the game from my standpoint still exist after the patch. 

AI front priority, while improved is still poor.  It will still create suicide naval invasions, over fortify neutral borders and generally not place its forces where they're most needed.  It's still quite possible, although not as common, to see the AI strip a front line almost entirely of defensive/offensive forces to transfer elsewhere. It has improved in not sending significant percentages of land forces to useless fronts like Ethiopia or Indochina, so there is improvement.

Division spam and expeditionary forces spam wasn't addressed in Sunflower.  The AI massively overproduces divisions, to the point of choking their own, and their own allies supply.  In the mid to late game countries like Romania or Italy can be fielding upwards of 200 divisions each, and spam gifting dozens to hundreds of those divisions to Germany as expeditionary forces, creating supply nightmares.

Paradox in Sunflower started to apply a "sanity" score to some AI decisions to declare war, but it's still not enough.  Once tension gets high enough, there are still a spate of suicidal DOW's, especially by the Axis.   Also, with some nations having an auto-DOW in some of their national focus trees,  so sometimes AI nations like Japan or Russia get stuck having to declare war on enemies that they are very ill equipped to fight.   There are fortunately improvements though.  Since Sunflower I don't see Germany getting involved in wars with Sweeden or Switzerland as often.

The AI still doesn't do a great job building anything beyond Infantry divisions, but it is better than it was. 

All of these are issues I've had with a mostly unmodded Sunflower.   I do need to try it out with Black Ice and see what differences that makes. 

This game has a ton of potential, it's fun but it gets bogged down by a few issues that are primarily AI based that do seem fixable.  Sunflower addressed some of those problems,  but no where nearly to the extent as needed to be done before the game reaches its full potential.  I have a feeling that it will given time.  Just today HoI4 got a new project lead and apparently a bigger staff going forward, so there is positive movement.

[sandman2575]

If they are headed for a Panzer General or Order of Battle type game, forget it.

HOI is not headed in this direction. Those are beer & pretzel games. (That's not to criticize them -- that's the level they're pitched to and they do it well.)

[Rayfer]

@solops - seeing more of these 'wargamers unite, we're getting older!' threads nowadays it seems paradox is doing the 'paradox' thing with this step in the right direction: towards their 'new and future' core audience (the casual gamer who prefers playing instead of studying ww2 warfare)!
axis & allies all the way, yeah!

:(

Hearts of Iron was never billed as a hardcore, John Tiller / Gary Grigsby type simulation with ultra fidelity to historical detail. Nor do I think it can be said to appeal to 'casual' gamers. It's far more complex -- and indeed, much more attentive to historical detail -- than it's getting credit for here. Calling it "Axis and Allies" is selling short in a pretty unfair way, IMO.

+1  It is a very deep game with tons of decisions that you ca,n but don't have, to micro-manage.  Just for example, as someone pointed out above, medium tanks may start out the same for all countries, but through research you can modify the armor, weapon, engine, etc. to make it unique in the way your want it.  This same depth carries over into many other areas of the game including ships and aircraft. Read back through IanC's posts, he did a lot for many of us to help us learn to drill down into the many choices one can make in this game.

[sandman2575]

The fact that HOI4 lets you design your own division templates down to the battalion / coy level, *and* lets you specify a TOE for different division types down to the level of different vehicle variants.... that alone should be enough to put to rest the idea that HOI4 got 'dumbed down.' Yes, it's not War in the Pacific: AE, but it's plenty deep and plenty true to the spirit of WW2 authenticity.

[SirAndrewD]

The fact that HOI4 lets you design your own division templates down to the battalion / coy level, *and* lets you specify a TOE for different division types down to the level of different vehicle variants.... that alone should be enough to put to rest the idea that HOI4 got 'dumbed down.' Yes, it's not War in the Pacific: AE, but it's plenty deep and plenty true to the spirit of WW2 authenticity.

Agreed.  HoI 4 is just different from HoI 3, not "dumber".  It is by no means at all Axis and Allies.  In some ways it's actually the most complex HoI in the series, even if it is also the most streamlined. 

In fact, it's greatest flaws may be that the design was too complex, and the internal mechanics of the AI haven't really been made to fit the suit that has been tailored for it yet. 

I actually think this game would've benefited from being set in an earlier time period, say WWI, with a lot less in equipment and much more simple and understandable frontage concepts.

There's a real gem of a game here, but like some Paradox titles, it's going to have to grow into it. 

[solops]

Yes, it's not War in the Pacific: AE

Good! I need only one of those in my life. I am a TOAW III kind of player, which I consider to be middle of the road between "beer & pretzels" and WitP-AE. The comments of the last 3 or 4 posts are very encouraging. And I have a long history with Paradox, as many of us do, dating back to the release of EU-I, so I have pretty good idea of what their development curve might be.  I just hope they DO finish it. When they do, it might be something I'd be excited about, unless TOAW IV crowds every other wargame off of my hard drive.

[chemkid]

@solops - seeing more of these 'wargamers unite, we're getting older!' threads nowadays it seems paradox is doing the 'paradox' thing with this step in the right direction: towards their 'new and future' core audience (the casual gamer who prefers playing instead of studying ww2 warfare)!
axis & allies all the way, yeah!

:(

Hearts of Iron was never billed as a hardcore, John Tiller / Gary Grigsby type simulation with ultra fidelity to historical detail. Nor do I think it can be said to appeal to 'casual' gamers. It's far more complex -- and indeed, much more attentive to historical detail -- than it's getting credit for here. Calling it "Axis and Allies" is selling short in a pretty unfair way, IMO.

Sorry. Got carried away... It's just pure envy on my part, I wish for a computer good enough to play HOI4 in all its glory.

[Ian C]

A couple more mods that might be useful:

DzK Better Counters
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=699668071&searchtext=counters

HOIIP - NATO Template Counters
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=768448576&searchtext=counters


Divisions of Renown and Infamy (might conflict with the above NATO mod)
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=770462885&searchtext=counters

[sandman2575]

Sorry. Got carried away... It's just pure envy on my part, I wish for a computer good enough to play HOI4 in all its glory.

No worries, man. Didn't mean to sound quite as stern as I did! 

Not suggesting at all that HOI4 is immune to criticism. There are definitely areas for improvement. I just scratch my head at the perception that HOI4 somehow represents a step backward ('streamlined' = 'dumbed down for more casual audience'). I really don't see it. I was as disappointed as anyone that HOI4 got rid of HOI3's CnC hierarchy -- but I also understand there's an area where some streamlining makes sense (I think the decision to get rid of divisional generals makes excellent sense) -- and for every area that may have gotten pared down, others got made much more robust. Case in point is the new production system, which is much more involved -- and interesting -- than what we had in HOI3. Also the division designer is awesome.  And for all its current imperfections, I *love* the battle planner.

Anyway, as others have said, HOI4 isn't less complex than HOI3. It's just that the areas of complexity have shifted -- in my view, for the better.

Also, on the topic of WitP:AE -- I couldn't play it without your amazing map mods, chemkid! They're gorgeous.

[sandman2575]

In fact, it's greatest flaws may be that the design was too complex, and the internal mechanics of the AI haven't really been made to fit the suit that has been tailored for it yet. 

This hits the nail on the head 100%. I hope the design doesn't prove insurmountably complex for the AI in the end. I'm optimistic that continued patches and expansions will realize the game's huge potential. But it's going to be a long-term process.