Second Front (in Development)

[Axeking240]

Not at all.  I am a single-player only wargame player.  Random maps are a huge thing.

I'd suggest that _good_ random maps are a huge thing. Just plain random maps can lead to a very wide range of quality - with most tending towards unfun to play on.

But I guess the real question is - are you looking for a random map generator, or a random scenario generator? These are very different things. And simply having random maps wont get you any high quality scenarios to play - these are quite a bit of an art to get interesting and fun situations assembled. Just go look at ASl scenarios - there is a very wide range in quality as well as fun factor in them. And none of them were built randomly...

The reality is that it will take a huge effort to have either a random map generator or a random scenario generator built. And that would be effort not spent on improving other aspects that are more universally needed - and for which we can't just fall back on player designed content for.

Adding British, Japanese, Italian, French forces, and Jungle and desert terrain IMO would be a much better target of effort. If sales are good enough, then perhaps it can become ecnomical to build random generators. But until that happens, I don't see them appearing any time soon...

[JasonPratt]

The only Panzer General-ish game I have ever played that had randomized maps, was Fantasy General -- they were salted into the campaign here and there.

How many PGish games have I bought and enjoyed since Panzer General? I can't say "all", but I feel pretty safe saying "most".  O0

[al_infierno]

Not at all.  I am a single-player only wargame player.  Random maps are a huge thing.

I'd suggest that _good_ random maps are a huge thing. Just plain random maps can lead to a very wide range of quality - with most tending towards unfun to play on.

But I guess the real question is - are you looking for a random map generator, or a random scenario generator? These are very different things. And simply having random maps wont get you any high quality scenarios to play - these are quite a bit of an art to get interesting and fun situations assembled. Just go look at ASl scenarios - there is a very wide range in quality as well as fun factor in them. And none of them were built randomly...

The reality is that it will take a huge effort to have either a random map generator or a random scenario generator built. And that would be effort not spent on improving other aspects that are more universally needed - and for which we can't just fall back on player designed content for.

Adding British, Japanese, Italian, French forces, and Jungle and desert terrain IMO would be a much better target of effort. If sales are good enough, then perhaps it can become ecnomical to build random generators. But until that happens, I don't see them appearing any time soon...

+1, the random map maker in Panzer Corps 2 was utter garbage and a waste of development time.

[ArizonaTank]

Not at all.  I am a single-player only wargame player.  Random maps are a huge thing.

....

But I guess the real question is - are you looking for a random map generator, or a random scenario generator? These are very different things. And simply having random maps wont get you any high quality scenarios to play - these are quite a bit of an art to get interesting and fun situations assembled. Just go look at ASl scenarios - there is a very wide range in quality as well as fun factor in them. And none of them were built randomly...

The reality is that it will take a huge effort to have either a random map generator or a random scenario generator built. And that would be effort not spent on improving other aspects that are more universally needed - and for which we can't just fall back on player designed content for.

....

Definitely talking about randomly generated maps. Random scenarios on pre-made maps are just a shadow of what they could be IMHO.

Strangely, many players seem to be on the side of 'can't be done well, so not worth the effort.'

I challenge that assumption.

Again, I point to CMx1 series where I think it was done very well. Random scenarios, on randomly generated maps, in 3D no less. I still play the games regularly today (I often pick forces however). Every once in a while you get a map with a strange oddity, but mostly they are realistic.

I really enjoyed CMx1s randomly generated maps with PBEM games as well. 

BTW, if you haven't tried CMx1, I highly recommend them. All of them are available on GOG for the price of a fancy cup of coffee ($5.99; less if on sale).  Here is a link to the latest and greatest CMx1 title:
https://www.gog.com/en/game/combat_mission_afrika_korps

[al_infierno]

^ I would say it's not "can't be done well, not worth the effort" and more "difficult to do well, generally not worth the effort if there are other areas of the game that can still be expanded upon and improved."  And if it's not done well (e.g. Panzer Corps 2) then it falls flatly under the column of "not worth the effort."

The CMx1 random maps are an exception rather than the rule IMO.  It helps a lot that CMx1 is so heavily abstracted and graphically simplistic.  The CMx1 randomizer just has to put a few boxes with big general features next to each other.  With the scope and detail of Second Front, I think it would be difficult to make a "good" map maker that doesn't just simplistically recycle large map chunks together.

[ArizonaTank]

^ I would say it's not "can't be done well, not worth the effort" and more "difficult to do well, generally not worth the effort if there are other areas of the game that can still be expanded upon and improved."  And if it's not done well (e.g. Panzer Corps 2) then it falls flatly under the column of "not worth the effort."

The CMx1 random maps are an exception rather than the rule IMO.  It helps a lot that CMx1 is so heavily abstracted and graphically simplistic.  The CMx1 randomizer just has to put a few boxes with big general features next to each other.  With the scope and detail of Second Front, I think it would be difficult to make a "good" map maker that doesn't just simplistically recycle large map chunks together.

I agree, if someone just puts minimum effort functionality out there, they wasted everybody's time and money. But isn't that true of entire games as well?

I do think you are selling what CMx1 does graphically far too short. There is "intelligence" to where terrain is placed in CMx1. In general large features such as roads, villages, and hills "make sense"; and are not just randomly plopped down. Of course because CMx1 uses relatively large terrain tiles, the maps are by definition not as realistic as those produced by hand in CMx2. But this thread really isn't about CMx1 / CMx2. So I will back off.

As far as Second Front is concerned, the maps are hex based... Good random hex map generation has been solved over and over again in PC game land. And certainly a good map generator doesn't just put random hexes down next to each other. There needs to be logic about woods, houses, buildings, roads, fields...everything. So yes, it would take some effort; but my guess is that it is not 'too difficult' if the devs thought there was good market demand for it.

Look no further than John Tiller's original "Campaign Series" (the WWII one) that had a very nice random hex map feature. In fact, many games from the 90s and early 2000s had random hex map generators...and yes, some were better than others.

But I know the market in general isn't clamoring for random map generation, so we will not see it in Second Front or any other upcoming game.

Realistically, in PC wargame land the way it might happen is somebody puts out a game that does randomly generated maps really well because they thought it was a cool idea. The game does well, and within a year, every other game is doing it as well (and of course, some doing it better than others).

As a side note, the use of artificial intelligence / machine learning (AI/ML) is spreading even into what used to be mundane areas, and the cost of utilizing it is dropping (in terms of software and hardware). Someday soon, somebody is going to use AI/ML to build really nice 3D randomly generated maps for wargames and we will all be happy.

[TitusGroen]

But I know the market in general isn't clamoring for random map generation, so we will not see it in Second Front or any other upcoming game.

Not clamoring for it? It seems to me that every other day there's a new game claiming new procedurally generated something (even if its not in the wargames niche). So much so that marketing copy for games is starting to swing the other way and brag about having "handcrafted maps". Random generation is overplayed, particularly when so many other features would be nicer to have.

[Skoop]

I get what you guys are saying about the map generator for mp play, makes sense.  I think most of us would like to see jo get second front released first, then we could talk about a map generator / scenario generator features to follow as dlc down the road.

[Axeking240]

I've never stated that a random map generator couldn't be done.

What I have said is that effort required to get agood one is substantial.

So the choice becomes...  British, Japanese, desert, jungle (all of these) vs random map generator in europe terrain only...

For me, its a no brainer - the effort required for a map generator is much better spent on adding other features. The dev team is small, and building (and testing) a map generator to the quality level expected would probably take 6 months + all by itself... and still leave us with randomly generated maps with no scenario on them. You'd still have to manually build the scenarios after this. Or spend another 6 months or so building a scenario generator too.

Keep in mind that 99% of players that want a map generator actually want a random map and scenario generator (both parts)... so adding this in, is it worth (optomistically) another 1 year added to development before release? And further delay of the extra forces caused by need to integrate with random scen and map generators?

[Sigwolf]

I've never stated that a random map generator couldn't be done.

What I have said is that effort required to get agood one is substantial.

So the choice becomes...  British, Japanese, desert, jungle (all of these) vs random map generator in europe terrain only...

For me, its a no brainer - the effort required for a map generator is much better spent on adding other features. The dev team is small, and building (and testing) a map generator to the quality level expected would probably take 6 months + all by itself... and still leave us with randomly generated maps with no scenario on them. You'd still have to manually build the scenarios after this. Or spend another 6 months or so building a scenario generator too.

Keep in mind that 99% of players that want a map generator actually want a random map and scenario generator (both parts)... so adding this in, is it worth (optomistically) another 1 year added to development before release? And further delay of the extra forces caused by need to integrate with random scen and map generators?

Why do you think that this has to be done before release?  Maybe people that want this would be perfectly happy with a follow-up dlc that adds the functionality?  It's not like it hasn't been done before.  It's amazing how people can think, 'I don't care about this feature, so it shouldn't exist".

[Axeking240]

Why do you think that this has to be done before release?  Maybe people that want this would be perfectly happy with a follow-up dlc that adds the functionality?  It's not like it hasn't been done before.  It's amazing how people can think, 'I don't care about this feature, so it shouldn't exist".

Not sure who this would be referring to. I haven't seen anyone say they don't care about it. Just saying its pretty low on the priorityies - there are so many other things that have a broad reach to work on - even after release.

I'm firmly in the "if there is enough desire for it - it will come" camp :-) 

Just not so sure yet that SF will see enough demand for random content to warrent the huge effort in developing it... but theres always hope ;-)

[al_infierno]

Yeah I don't think anybody in this thread said anything to the effect of "it shouldn't exist."  If you actually read what we've been saying, we simply believe there are other high-priority features that should come first - such as new content to cover additional theaters of the conflict.

[Axeking240]

Hey all,

Dev Notes number 2 is up on the Steam page:
https://steamcommunity.com/games/1148490/announcements/detail/6456498378612376233

[Thomas Davie]

The only Panzer General-ish game I have ever played that had randomized maps, was Fantasy General -- they were salted into the campaign here and there.

How many PGish games have I bought and enjoyed since Panzer General? I can't say "all", but I feel pretty safe saying "most".  O0

No, as I've stated before, I will gladly take random maps before other sorts of expansions. Having waited this long, I can easily wait some more; although I'd rather hand my $ over  :)

I actually haven't played many scenarios in many game systems. The John Tiller releases I do play scenarios b/c that's all they are. It goes further - I prefer random maps/scenarios. Never liked Panzer General/Corps.

Tom

[Axeking240]

Just to give an idea of how complex just map making is, here are some of the things to consider:
Map size - from 12x12 up to 50x50 (big maps would be harder to use)
Approx numbers of current versio:
- Elevations - there are 6 for ground, plus you could have a tall building on top so possible range is +9 to -1 (and -1 could be water, ocean or ground)
- Terrain types - currently around 15
- Two kinds of roads - dirt or paved
- streams and trails
- 7 kinds of bridges (and they are parts that can be put together to effectively make a bridge of any length)
- train tracks - multiple parts to lay rails in almost any pattern you can think of
- buildings - over 100 (probably getting close to 150), and many of these are parts that can be put together to make larger buildings
- and decorations and facades - over 160. These can be placed in a lot of different ways, with as many as 5 in a hex being reasonable in some cases.

A large number of the buildings and other items can also be placed in a rubbled state. And note most  of this stuff comes in a summer and winter version. Quite a few of them come in "random" placements too - you can click in a hex to place some trees, click again to get a different arrangements, and repeat until you get a result you like...

So its not just placing terrain - its adding the buildings, road, decorations, etc that makes it very complex to get good looking (and playable!) maps done randomly.

Truley a massively complex thing to do based on some random generation, requiring a huge effort.

And then, even if this is done, all you have is a map - no scenario to play on it... that must still be created.


The reality is that creating a map by hand will give much better results with less effort. And a map generator without a scenario generator will leave most people unhappy because what they really would want is random scenarios...