GrogHeads Forum

The fourth version of the second engine...

But, again, their DRM raises its head for real customers.  The actual information is a little scattered and confusing about what and where you buy it, but you start on the bfc homepage, you can eventually get to a bundle if own all the games, except Shock Force.

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/124158-license-key-for-40-upgrade/

Some neat things in this one, but I think this engine upgrade was for a lot of infrastructure stuff like DRM and module streamlining.  Not a lot of huge game=changinf features.

I am a little more excited about this than normal.  Since my SB days are numbered, I have gone back to playing CM somewhat regularly.

I saw that this morning. Get your wallets out.  #:-)

I would hold off on the wallets until they fix the DRM issue.  Looks like no Windows users can license and play.

Here is the change list.  A bunch of things added for scenario building, finally.  Some of those things should have been in since the beginning.  They really help with good scenario design.

Upgrade 4 Features

GAMEPLAY

HULLDOWN COMMAND: Vehicles have access to a new movement command called Hulldown. This command allows a vehicle to move forward until only the turret is exposed to a specified target, and then the vehicle stops moving.

IMPROVED INFANTRY SPACING: Infantry on the move will now respect each other's personal space! While moving, squad and team members will maintain a few meters of distance between each other. Soldiers will also spread out laterally on the move when possible (some terrain may necessitate column movement, such as paths through rough terrain).

PEEKING AROUND BUILDING CORNERS: Infantry units positioned adjacent to building corners will now automatically post some soldiers at the corners to observe and fire around the obstacle

AI PROACTIVELY AVOIDS HIGH-EXPLOSIVE FIRE: The TacAI that runs soldiers and vehicles will more proactively, and reactively, attempt to avoid incoming HE fire. Two classic examples are that the AI will attempt to avoid being wiped out by incoming artillery barrages and direct tank fire.

COMBINE SQUAD COMMAND: Combine Squad is a new Admin Command for squads. This command is useful for squads that have suffered major losses and need to consolidate their remaining personnel into larger teams!

USER INTERFACE

EXPANDED WAYPOINT DESCRIPTIVE TEXT: More special unit commands (such as Hide and Deploy Weapon) will now be marked with white floating text above the waypoint they are assigned to.

CAMPAIGN BRIEFING: The overall campaign briefing is now viewable during any campaign mission by going to the Menu Options Panel and selecting "Campaign".

FORWARD OBSERVER KILL CREDITS: Finally, time to see how effective your artillery really is! Forward Observers now get credit on the AAR for any casualties caused by off-map fire missions called in by them.

SCREEN EDGE PAN TOGGLE: Tired of trying to fine tune a camera position and then messing it up by touching the edge of the screen with the cursor? Using the hotkey ALT-E you can disable camera panning by touching the screen edge with the mouse cursor.

EDITOR

AI AREA FIRE ORDERS: The AI can now be scripted to use Area Fire! Each AI Order can have a target zone designated.

AI FACING ORDERS: Each AI Order can be given a location for it to Face towards.

AI WITHDRAW ORDERS: AI Groups can be ordered to Withdraw towards their movement destination. Vehicles will move in Reverse to the destination, while infantry will leapfrog back while turning around to face behind them.

CAMPAIGN RESUPPLY: Personnel replacements and ammunition levels are now more uniformly resupplied across all core units between campaign missions, as opposed to the all-or-nothing check on each unit done previously.

3D FLAVOR OBJECT CLONE TOOL: Flavor object can be cloned within the 3D view without having to go back to the 2D view.

32 ORDER AI PLANS: Each AI Group can now have up to 32 Orders, increased from 16.

STREAM TERRAIN: Small streams can now be placed on battle maps.

GRAPHICS

New tracer and muzzle flash effects.

Remind me again.....beyond Gustav Line, was that just a module of Fortress Italy?  I own it but noticed in the big bundle upgrade they offer, doesn't list is specifically...but thinking it was just a module and would be covered by the CMFI Upgrade.

Also, looks like before you can go to 4.0, must have 3.0 as well....

GL is just a module of CMFI.  Speaking of that, if you buy the 4.0 engine upgrade bundle for all 5 games, it won't do CMFI.  CMFI didn't make the cut and won't be upgraded until mid-January.  In BFC-speak, that is some time in Feb.

Quote from: RyanE on December 24, 2016, 09:44:35 AM
GL is just a module of CMFI.  Speaking of that, if you buy the 4.0 engine upgrade bundle for all 5 games, it won't do CMFI.  CMFI didn't make the cut and won't be upgraded until mid-January.  In BFC-speak, that is some time in Feb.

Thanks...saw the delay, but definitely seems worth it to go for the bundle since I own them all....also need to buy the $5 3.0 upgrade for CMFI since I never did that in the past.

Just pointing out they haven't sorted the issues with the 4.0 bundle upgrade.  No one from BFC has responded yet.

Yep, but I figure they will get it sorted, going to be a purchase anyway....I have some last minute shopping this morning so I will hold off until at least later today and hopefully things sorted by then.

Any news about being able to target buildings top floors if you dont have LOS to the bottom floor tile.  That is always a pain for me for to allocate supressing fire.

Con

I am assuming it hasn't changed...

1) it wasn't listed
2) Steve has always said it is a fundamental engine LOS issue related the tile approach they chose.  It would be a major undertaking, according to him.

While it can be a pain now and then, I may encounter it once in every 4-5 games I play.  Every game has its limitations somewhere. 

I think the bigger change that not many have mentioned is squad spacing.  This is a fundamental issue that has driven a lot of weird game design issues.  They had to nerf HE effects to compensate for it.  It completely borks moving in the open against MG defenses.  I am anxious to see if it has any real effect on those two issues.

Ahh who am i kidding of course i am going to buy it (even if it had major issues I am a CM whore).  Already downloading it from the store

Con

At least there is some logic to it all :

The Game Engine 4 Upgrade for CM Final Blitzkrieg is not a standalone game. You need the CMFB v1.02 (Game Engine 3) in order to play. Once upgraded the version number changes to v2.x.

So engine 3 is version 1 and engine 4 is version 2 !

thanks for the heads-up! already downloading my update for CM Normandy, yeah! :D

Seems to be some kind of issue with CMBS download also.  I downloaded it and it looks like its the 3.11 patch, not the 4.0.  I will double-check I clicked on the right link.  I also see that BFC is working on the issue, but Steve's first response has me more confused than before.  I sure hope this DRM system is making them a lot of money, because it has been nothing but hassles for years for me.

Anyone else getting a wrong license key error?  I made sure its the right license.  I even went back and used the original license from when I bought the initial gameand I was able to use those so I know I am putting int he license correctly.  I applied the update correctly because when I try and run the games it now demands that I need to activate them but with this license error I seem to be locked out of playing them for the moment.

I have put a ticket into the help desk

Conrad

@RyanE are you interested in PBEM against me?

@chemkid while I am ploughing through the WitE manual how about some CM PBeM in the mean time to get warmed up for the main course?

Both: I prefer to use a Dropbox setup and let CmHelper take care of file syncing. We can also chat within CmHelper. Let me know if you guys are interested!

Oh and Ryan: for CMBS check the gamedata folder after patch install. If you find anything other than plain .brz files you will get issues.
So folders delete, other files delete. And check if all .brz files are present.
The installer sometimes does weird things, but nothing a simple file move usually doesnt fix.
Happened to me with patch 1.04

Thanks for the offer, but I don't typically play MP.

Yskonyn if I can get setup I would be interested in PBEM.  I also use dropbox and H2H helper

Yeah lets wait until v4 is running.
Which game would you like Con?
I dont have Fortress Italy and its not available to buy atm, all others I do have.
Dont mind side nor size.

Thanks for the heads up! Off to purchase now.

Just got a message back from the help desk those poor bastards are having to work troubleshooting CM 4.0 launch on Christmas so lets give them a break.  Said the problem was resolved and I just ran a quick several min turns on CM Normandy and it is at 4.0

Con

While I sympathize with having to work on the holidays...I've done it yself several times...I would have waited until at least Monday.

Either way, seems to work.

Downloading as we speak... :bd:

Don't just hit the download all button when you get access to the folders with the download link. The whole package is then 32GB! And it includes full installers for the various games. If you already have them installed and updated to latest patches before this new Engine v4 upgrade, you only select the Upgrade 4 packs for each game.

Quote from: Con on December 24, 2016, 10:26:26 AM
Any news about being able to target buildings top floors if you dont have LOS to the bottom floor tile.  That is always a pain for me for to allocate supressing fire.

Con

+1

Ok, all games have updated without issue.  \m/

@Con and @chemkid I am ready to get going. Let me know what you'd like to play (IF you want to play, chemkid, of course). Anyone else wanting to start up is welcome as well of course!  :knuppel2:

Steam has ruined a lot of games for me as dumb as it sounds. Upgrading, patching and adding DLC is so easy I find myself annoyed any other way. I like Black Sea but last time I upgraded I had a DRM issue with the license and somehow ended up with the wrong patch after that anyway.

I'm willing to go through manual patching with matrix and AGEOD but Battlefront DRM has messed up my Cm games twice and the customer service was not professional.

Hope they fix it, Black Sea is the only modern tactical game around really.

@the flying dutchman - sorry, but still very much into pre-xmas celebration and having fun with kevin in home alone... pbem has to wait.

merry christmas everyone and enjoy your presents!
chem!

Yes. Me too

I am up for pbem  but thinking more after Christmas and before the New Years. Too much family stuff to do and god knows how it's going to go tonight with all the wrapping and building toys I am going to have to do as santa. I will be drinking plenty of santa scotch and eating cookies to keep me going

Con

Boy, its kind of a mess over there at BFC.  I appreciate the thought of getting this out before xmas, but I am giving up.  I mightily struggled just to find the links to the bundle.  The CMBS patch had the wrong links.  The whole DRM thing was porked.  Issues with credit cards on the store.  Why is every BFC release so full of holes?

My excitement has slowly petered away.  I miss my dongle.

btw, the other modern tactical is Steel Beasts.  I has come a long way to being a solid and entertaining tactical combat game.  Dongle and all.

I'm up for PBEM once the holiday crush at Battlefront has passed far enough for them to fix how to haxor their new engine upgrade into place.  ::)

Ok, to be continued then.  <:-)
Have a great Xmas, gents!

Quote from: RyanE on December 24, 2016, 02:21:46 PM
My excitement has slowly petered away.  I miss my dongle.

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi64.tinypic.com%2F14d34g3.png&hash=2a5c73685ca748a122b634558387ad7605d666fc)  :o ^-^

Note I said "petered" and "dongle" in the same post.  Internet first time.

...6 sharp ones and a bag of gravel, please.

FWIW, I had no problems finding the bundle and have activated all of my games, all of which include all available expansions, by doing nothing more than pasting in the code and hitting the activate button. So apparently YMMV.

For some reason, some people, including me, are having issues with CMRT and the upgrade.  Here is Steve's Advice from the forum:

"For CMRT you must reenter your base game code.  It's a quirk specific to CMRT.  I'll see what I can do about flagging this information for easier viewing.

Steve"

I am about to try that.  I still don't understand what the heck can cause all of these issues every time they issue a module, patch, or upgrade.  This is the third patch, module, upgrade in a row that has been a complete cluster and caused me to waste almost an entire day working out.  I really want to support BFC, but the sometimes make things maddeningly difficult.

It worked...holy cow.

Yeah, It said to enter your original license key in that activation window for CMRT. So after getting a no go on my new Upgrade 4 license I just stubbornly entered the original base code and voila.
I can be stubborn like that without reading information out there and still reap rewards. :D

The problem is there was no information out there to read until BFC figured it out just a little while ago.  Now they have something posted.

I am a little confused.  I thought one of the points of this paid upgrade was simplify and streamline the DRM process.  I would rate that a fail up to this point.

I started this process this morning and just got it all running about 30 minutes ago.

Now that I can run it...

This a very subtle transformational change.  When CM2 started out, there were issues with defensively placed MGs not being able to effectively stop a small group infantry from approaching in the open.  They didn't fire often enough, the infantry didn't get suppressed fast enough, etc.  BFC made some good changes to fix that.  But one thing that was a disadvantage for the infantry is they clumped up and and always moved in a pretty straight column.  This allowed the fixed MGs to fire straight down the length of a squad and, once they had the range, mow the infantry down.  It was the one glaring issue in straight up open field infantry combat.  This upgrade seems to have fixed that now.   

I have an old MG test scenario in CMBN and now find that infantry approaching on a run will be stopped, but only after approaching within 300m.  My scenario has a simple HMG M1919 firing on a platoon on the move.  In the original CM2, the platoon could get within 150m and then gun down the MG crew.  In the fixed MG scenario, the MG stopped the platoon outside 500m, basically almost wiping out squads before they got pinned.  Now, the platoon gets to within 300m and then get gets pinned.  Now a real firefight develops at longer range.

I think this is a game changer for infantry combat and will push players to use real tactics against MGs and they can be effective.  The main change is squads a little more spread out, but mostly they don't move in straight columns.  Its fabulous to watch.

I also think some of the AI changes for scenario building will open scenario building up to players that have fewer skills with the tricks to get the AI to be a skilled opponent.

Hey Ryan E. Any idea what happened to the follow command you posted about a few weeks back? Can't see it listed. Saw similar question on bf forum but no answer. Peeking round corners is huge if it works the follow was bigger. In the north of Finland currently with suite internet so can't check this baby out myself.

Did they fix the campaign briefing so that it fills the whole screen now?

I just looked at the patch notes and cannot determine why it is worth $14 Australian dollars per game (have not looked for the bundle).
There are a few new commands and a few things for scenario builders but apart from that I am on the fence. It seems to be more like a small hotfix.

Does this just include all of the changes of final Blitzkrieg?

Quote from: Zulu1966 on December 25, 2016, 12:27:10 AM
....Any idea what happened to the follow command you posted about a few weeks back? Can't see it listed.

i have seen a longer post by a developer yesterday who said (here condensed, in my words) "sadly it was just a bride to far to get it work properly and with satisfactorily results for to put into the open. Its seem to be much harder to program then thought. It still remains a top priority on the developers personal wish list, but he is skeptical if it can be done in the CM 2.0 engine at all, Its high up on the teams to-do list for the next evolution of the engine. "       

Does anybody know if 4.0 gives any performance increase?

Quote from: RyanE on December 24, 2016, 05:08:26 PM
It worked...holy cow.

some years ago i bougth SCWW1 and had the usual license problems... got fixed in a minute with voodoo magic if i remember correctly. BUT! later that year i bought the big bundle for Normandy and i was never asked to enter any serial!!! i opened a ticket with BF but they couldn't solve that 'problem'.... mysterious!!! i always wondered why everybody is so upset with BF DRM?!
(after the 3.0 update last year i had to enter my serial like e everyone else, though...)

btw, that was my Christmas bedtime story for you. :D

got the bundle :) 
and  was able to update CM BS and CM RT so far :clap: 
(Italy and Normandy i didn't touched yet, Blitzkrieg i don't have   ...so nothing to report about these)

from a first test of  Red Thunder i learned that our German tanks really were ahead of time  ;)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi64.tinypic.com%2F1zc3fb5.png&hash=384aee6fd3c958804613765f0325e3f812f27b45)
(bad picture quality cause of capture tool that somehow came with Nvidea and i didn't checked any capture settings yet ..its actually a screen shot from inside of 'video capture' running in the background)


to be fair to Battlefront  ... i loaded a very old saved game and also in the old replay phase and  i am thankfully that old saved games do load at all.   

Lol. Laser warning.

I thnk that happens if you have certain mods installed when you update.  It might also be from directory issues.

Direct all power to the shields and you'll be safe.

Quote from: RyanE on December 25, 2016, 07:25:13 AM
I thnk that happens if you have certain mods installed when you update.  It might also be from directory issues.

Indeed. I had all kinds of CMBN stuff showing up in CmBS once. It was because the GameData folder was 'contaminated' with folders and files that shouldn't be there.
That folder should only have the .brz files for the game, nothing more. No subfolders either.

Quote from: MikeGER on December 25, 2016, 03:43:34 AM

Quote from: Zulu1966 on December 25, 2016, 12:27:10 AM
....Any idea what happened to the follow command you posted about a few weeks back? Can't see it listed.

i have seen a longer post by a developer yesterday who said (here condensed, in my words) "sadly it was just a bride to far to get it work properly and with satisfactorily results for to put into the open. Its seem to be much harder to program then thought. It still remains a top priority on the developers personal wish list, but he is skeptical if it can be done in the CM 2.0 engine at all, Its high up on the teams to-do list for the next evolution of the engine. "       

Thanks Ryan. That's a real pity.

So five days after release, they are still putting together instructions on upgrading...

http://community.battlefront.com/announcement/27-special-upgrade-4-tech-tips/

Here are the instructions (?) on how to upgrade and what to do if you run into issues.  BFC's products and installers have more issues with virus programs than any I have seen.

from the above link (spelling and grammar not mine):

Now that Upgrade 4 is out and about in large quantities we have now discovered a few SNAFUs that happen out in the scary, real world that is home computing.  Fortunately the rate of problems is extremely small and so far most are easily worked around.  We've identified a few issues that have similar causes which we have clear instructions for work arounds here they are:

1.  If you receive a message that your Upgrade 4 Big Bundle license key is invalid you are probably someone that was bit by a script error that prevented your key from being registered in our license database.  We've fixed most of these by now, but no doubt there are still a few people out there that need a fix.  If you experience this message, and purchased the Windows Download/Hardgoods option or a Mac version, contact the Help Desk with your license key and request it be checked.  There are no apparently problems with other product purchases:

https://battlefront.mojohelpdesk.com/

2.  CMRT Windows customers need to re-license their original key.  This is a result of improvements to the licensing system which CMBN, CMBS, and CMFB are already using.  To do this launch CMRT with the Upgrade and the first time enter your Engine 4 key.  Exit and then use the "Activate New Products" shortcut in your CMRT folder, then enter your Engine 3 license key.  That should do the trick.

3.  CMRT and CMBN MacOS customers have a similar situation as #2, however the "Activate New Products" is inside the Documents folder in their respective CM folders.  For CMBN you have to go through the process described above for each of your license keys.  There is no special order to follow.

4.  There's always a weird one and here it is.  A few Windows users are not getting "Activate New Products" shortcuts created during installation.  Apparently anti-virus software is preventing the installer from doing its job.  This might not be a problem right now, but it will prove to be an issue at some point in the future.  The solution is to create your own shortcut using the following steps:

Disable your anti-virus software before you do anything. Go to your Desktop, right click on the Desktop itself, select NEW->SHORTCUT, use BROWSE to locate the CM EXE that you are trying to fix. The location is then written out. After it type in a single space and then paste this:

-showui

Click NEXT and give your new Shortcut a name (doesn't matter what). Confirm that and you're done. Double click on the new Shortcut and you should be prompted to license whatever it is you need to license.

5.  The next oddball situation is unconfirmed and appears to be inherently related to #4 above.  Two people have reported they were not been prompted to put in a license key for CMFB when they first launched, therefore the game rightly so refuses to launch.   Since this apparent problem also means there is no "Activate New Products" shortcut to use, follow the above instructions for creating one then try licensing with Upgrade 4 key.  So far both people affected has reported success.

At this time we have not identified any issues that have not been worked around.  Let's hope it stays that way ;)

All my old savegames show Explosion images for brown dust. So every vehicle drives around with trailing big balls of fire! :)
It doesnt happen in a newly started game.
Minor issue as the dust fades quickly, but funny no less.

That Is funny. I bet it confuses the hell out of the enemy too. OK, probably not, but I bet it got your attention pretty quick first time it happened.

I have the same issue after Taco Bell.

Quote from: Con on December 24, 2016, 01:19:45 PM
Just got a message back from the help desk those poor bastards are having to work troubleshooting CM 4.0 launch on Christmas so lets give them a break.  Said the problem was resolved and I just ran a quick several min turns on CM Normandy and it is at 4.0

Con

Why give them a break? They chose Christmas to release it - if they didn't want to support it, they could have waited until the new year.

I bought the last upgrade and their DRM issues messed up my add-on modules. I imagine I'll buy this too, but am hoping it goes easier than the last upgrade.

The school of hard knocks says if you want to minimize the hassle, wait a few days before buying a BFC product.  It takes them a few days to get their act together.  That has been the pattern the last couple of years.

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftacticalwargamer.com%2Fcomputergames%2Fcombatmission%2Fgameengines.png&hash=f28c30262e95566b094a2279190f821119266b08)

So is this correct, re: game engines?

And these game engines are independent of individual title version, yes? For example, CM:FB has a v1.01 and a v1.02 patch, presumably for the original Game Engine 3.0 in which it was released - but also for Game Engine 4.0?

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on December 29, 2016, 12:37:16 PM

Quote from: Con on December 24, 2016, 01:19:45 PM
Just got a message back from the help desk those poor bastards are having to work troubleshooting CM 4.0 launch on Christmas so lets give them a break.  Said the problem was resolved and I just ran a quick several min turns on CM Normandy and it is at 4.0

Con

Why give them a break? They chose Christmas to release it - if they didn't want to support it, they could have waited until the new year.

I bought the last upgrade and their DRM issues messed up my add-on modules. I imagine I'll buy this too, but am hoping it goes easier than the last upgrade.

Oh look who's here. you are all heart pal. May have had something to do with wanting to give their customers something new over the xmas period when a lot of people have time off. No not possible from the monolithic huge impersonal organisation that is the battlefront mega corp.

Quote from: Zulu1966 on December 29, 2016, 04:17:05 PM
May have had something to do with wanting to give their customers something new over the xmas period when a lot of people have time off.

May have had something to do with squeezing a little bit of extra income in at Christmas without being prepared to support the product, too. Their comments about not having the manual ready yet, or for some weeks, supports *that* interpretation.

Used to be BFC released stuff "when it's ready." RyanE seems to be on the money.

Quote from: Pete Dero on December 24, 2016, 10:44:19 AM
At least there is some logic to it all :

The Game Engine 4 Upgrade for CM Final Blitzkrieg is not a standalone game. You need the CMFB v1.02 (Game Engine 3) in order to play. Once upgraded the version number changes to v2.x.

So engine 3 is version 1 and engine 4 is version 2 !

This may actually answer my question... thanks. :-0

Quote from: RyanE on December 29, 2016, 01:02:59 PM
The school of hard knocks says if you want to minimize the hassle, wait a few days before buying a BFC product.  It takes them a few days to get their act together.  That has been the pattern the last couple of years.

I'm playing a PBEM of CMBN so leery of updating that one, but I did manage to update CMRT and it seems to have taken. The procedure is a bit excrutiating, including separate activations and an error message pointing me to "battlefront.com" to learn more about the activation tool. User friendly it ain't, but at least it seems to work.

Hmm, loaded an old, old PBEM in CMRT and seems to work fine with the new upgrade - Hull Down command works in my old PBEM file too.

Hull Down was one of the biggest losses from the original CMX1 engine. I know there is is disappointment over "follow me" but that was never in the original. What other big ticket features are we missing from the original? List is getting shorter all the time. Terrain fires, maybe. And roadblocks?

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on December 29, 2016, 07:54:41 PM
Hmm, loaded an old, old PBEM in CMRT and seems to work fine with the new upgrade - Hull Down command works in my old PBEM file too.

Hull Down was one of the biggest losses from the original CMX1 engine. I know there is is disappointment over "follow me" but that was never in the original. What other big ticket features are we missing from the original? List is getting shorter all the time. Terrain fires, maybe. And roadblocks?

Random maps. I know that will never happen.

Quote from: jomni on December 29, 2016, 08:10:24 PM

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on December 29, 2016, 07:54:41 PM
Hmm, loaded an old, old PBEM in CMRT and seems to work fine with the new upgrade - Hull Down command works in my old PBEM file too.

Hull Down was one of the biggest losses from the original CMX1 engine. I know there is is disappointment over "follow me" but that was never in the original. What other big ticket features are we missing from the original? List is getting shorter all the time. Terrain fires, maybe. And roadblocks?

Random maps. I know that will never happen.

Ah, good point. Operations will also never happen, and it finally occurred to me why. The AI is scripted. So if you generate a front line in a battle on an operational size map, there is no random AI generator that would be able to get the enemy to do anything sensible on it.

CMFB and CMBN now upgraded as well. For some reason I had two CMBN executables, one in the Battlefront folder of PROGRAM FILES and the other in the second Battlefront folder that gets created in MY DOCUMENTS. Never did understand why they split that up, and in my case, I had to hunt for the "activate" file. Looks to have worked smoothly, though.

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on December 29, 2016, 04:31:29 PM

Quote from: Zulu1966 on December 29, 2016, 04:17:05 PM
May have had something to do with wanting to give their customers something new over the xmas period when a lot of people have time off.

May have had something to do with squeezing a little bit of extra income in at Christmas without being prepared to support the product, too. Their comments about not having the manual ready yet, or for some weeks, supports *that* interpretation.

Used to be BFC released stuff "when it's ready." RyanE seems to be on the money.

What Manual ? I got an engine 4.0 manual with my download with all the new stuff in it so what are you talking about ?

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on December 29, 2016, 12:37:16 PM

Quote from: Con on December 24, 2016, 01:19:45 PM
Just got a message back from the help desk those poor bastards are having to work troubleshooting CM 4.0 launch on Christmas so lets give them a break.  Said the problem was resolved and I just ran a quick several min turns on CM Normandy and it is at 4.0

Con

Why give them a break? They chose Christmas to release it - if they didn't want to support it, they could have waited until the new year.

I bought the last upgrade and their DRM issues messed up my add-on modules. I imagine I'll buy this too, but am hoping it goes easier than the last upgrade.

And the above quote reinforces why I would never want to deal with some Grogs as a customer base....no good deed goes unpunished and you can never satisfy and do right with this crowd.  Little wonder that people who actually spend their time, energy, vacation and untold stress doing this for a living because they love games can learn to despise their customers when given this attitude.

Quote from: Con on December 29, 2016, 11:42:03 PM
no good deed goes unpunished and you can never satisfy and do right with this crowd.  Little wonder that people who actually spend their time, energy, vacation and untold stress doing this for a living because they love games can learn to despise their customers when given this attitude.

They're not doing good deeds, so not sure what you're referring to. BFC is a business, and part of business is taking money from customers in exchange for goods and services. Those customers have a reasonable expectation that their products get adequate support. When companies like Matrix, BFC etc. starts distributing shareware, your comments might be more appropriate.

Thanks for being the beta tester on the 4.0 upgrade patches Mike.  I hadn't played CM 2x+ in a while but did finally get it upgraded to 3.x a couple of months ago.  What's your hunch- will several incremental 4.x patches be rolling out at some point?  I'll eventually go 4.x but I'm not in any rush to do so.  Hell, I still enjoy CMx1 more, I think it game plays better personally.

Quote from: GJK on December 30, 2016, 07:02:53 AM
Thanks for being the beta tester on the 4.0 upgrade patches Mike.  I hadn't played CM 2x+ in a while but did finally get it upgraded to 3.x a couple of months ago.  What's your hunch- will several incremental 4.x patches be rolling out at some point?  I'll eventually go 4.x but I'm not in any rush to do so.  Hell, I still enjoy CMx1 more, I think it game plays better personally.

I don't follow what goes on at BFC so I'm not even sure what they're working on. It is nice to see old features continue to be added - the hull down command was something I sorely missed. And I am glad that new stuff like the streams terrain they introduced in CM:FB is being retroactively fitted to the earlier games.

So whether there will be new patches, its a good question. I'm playing a lot more ASL these days - in the midst of the Decision at Elst CG. The streams feature retrofitted to CMBN have me thinking I can finally try and put Elst (and polder) into a scenario. But hard to capture the feel of a CG in CM now.

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on December 30, 2016, 08:46:49 AM
... I'm playing a lot more ASL these days - in the midst of the Decision at Elst CG. The streams feature retrofitted to CMBN have me thinking I can finally try and put Elst (and polder) into a scenario. But hard to capture the feel of a CG in CM now.

The DaE campaign is on my bucket list. If I could just stop getting distracted by other games and learn ASLSK past basic infantry rules (SK1).

Quote from: Ubercat on December 30, 2016, 10:04:40 AM

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on December 30, 2016, 08:46:49 AM
... I'm playing a lot more ASL these days - in the midst of the Decision at Elst CG. The streams feature retrofitted to CMBN have me thinking I can finally try and put Elst (and polder) into a scenario. But hard to capture the feel of a CG in CM now.

The DaE campaign is on my bucket list. If I could just stop getting distracted by other games and learn ASLSK past basic infantry rules (SK1).

It's a real slog to be honest. Not saying I'm not enjoying it, but the terrain is incredibly frustrating - lots of hindrances and very little open ground. Just like the real campaign, if you are the Allies and want to move fast, you have to go straight down the single good road where you're a sitting duck for high velocity German guns. Definitely challenging.

As for learning the rules, though, I'm finding the DaE rulebook actually more helpful than the full ASL binder. We're playing with full ASL rules, but referring what questions we can to the ASLSK rulebook. It's well written, comparatively speaking, and when you decide to go further into vehicles and ordnance, should be a real help for you.

Quote from: Ubercat on December 30, 2016, 10:04:40 AM

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on December 30, 2016, 08:46:49 AM
... I'm playing a lot more ASL these days - in the midst of the Decision at Elst CG. The streams feature retrofitted to CMBN have me thinking I can finally try and put Elst (and polder) into a scenario. But hard to capture the feel of a CG in CM now.

The DaE campaign is on my bucket list. If I could just stop getting distracted by other games and learn ASLSK past basic infantry rules (SK1).

Yes you do!  We need to wrap up our game of S2 and then move on to Guns (and then Tanks) and then full ASL!  Once you get AFV's in the game, it really takes on a whole new dimension and once you're comfortable with those, then full ASL comes pretty easily.

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on December 30, 2016, 10:09:52 AM


As for learning the rules, though, I'm finding the DaE rulebook actually more helpful than the full ASL binder. We're playing with full ASL rules, but referring what questions we can to the ASLSK rulebook. It's well written, comparatively speaking, and when you decide to go further into vehicles and ordnance, should be a real help for you.

I concur. In my quest of learning ASL I find the DaE rulebook a handy 'primer' to most things you will encounter commonly in ASL. The step to full ASL comes a lot easier this way.

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on December 30, 2016, 12:14:41 AM

Quote from: Con on December 29, 2016, 11:42:03 PM
no good deed goes unpunished and you can never satisfy and do right with this crowd.  Little wonder that people who actually spend their time, energy, vacation and untold stress doing this for a living because they love games can learn to despise their customers when given this attitude.

They're not doing good deeds, so not sure what you're referring to. BFC is a business, and part of business is taking money from customers in exchange for goods and services. Those customers have a reasonable expectation that their products get adequate support. When companies like Matrix, BFC etc. starts distributing shareware, your comments might be more appropriate.

They take money from us so they can keep doing what they are doing, not to get rich. Likening what BFC are doing to a normal corporate commercial enterprise shows nothing but but your complete ignorance of the nature of what they are doing and the industry in which they operate.

Quote from: Zulu1966 on December 29, 2016, 09:46:59 PM

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on December 29, 2016, 04:31:29 PM

Quote from: Zulu1966 on December 29, 2016, 04:17:05 PM
May have had something to do with wanting to give their customers something new over the xmas period when a lot of people have time off.

May have had something to do with squeezing a little bit of extra income in at Christmas without being prepared to support the product, too. Their comments about not having the manual ready yet, or for some weeks, supports *that* interpretation.

Used to be BFC released stuff "when it's ready." RyanE seems to be on the money.

What Manual ? I got an engine 4.0 manual with my download with all the new stuff in it so what are you talking about ?

Not going to reply I see - yet another example of your BFC bashing without properly knowing the facts.

Quote from: Zulu1966 on December 30, 2016, 02:58:34 PM

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on December 30, 2016, 12:14:41 AM

Quote from: Con on December 29, 2016, 11:42:03 PM
no good deed goes unpunished and you can never satisfy and do right with this crowd.  Little wonder that people who actually spend their time, energy, vacation and untold stress doing this for a living because they love games can learn to despise their customers when given this attitude.

They're not doing good deeds, so not sure what you're referring to. BFC is a business, and part of business is taking money from customers in exchange for goods and services. Those customers have a reasonable expectation that their products get adequate support. When companies like Matrix, BFC etc. starts distributing shareware, your comments might be more appropriate.

They take money from us so they can keep doing what they are doing, not to get rich. Likening what BFC are doing to a normal corporate commercial enterprise shows nothing but but your complete ignorance of the nature of what they are doing and the industry in which they operate.

You seem to be not understanding what I'm saying. Perhaps if you reviewed what I actually wrote, you might understand it better. Nowhere did I use the word "rich." If you think I'm in error in that BFC is a business devoted to providing their customers with a tangible good, I'd be okay with that. Feigning outrage at something I never said seems less constructive.

Quote from: GJK on December 30, 2016, 11:56:24 AM

Quote from: Ubercat on December 30, 2016, 10:04:40 AM

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on December 30, 2016, 08:46:49 AM
... I'm playing a lot more ASL these days - in the midst of the Decision at Elst CG. The streams feature retrofitted to CMBN have me thinking I can finally try and put Elst (and polder) into a scenario. But hard to capture the feel of a CG in CM now.

The DaE campaign is on my bucket list. If I could just stop getting distracted by other games and learn ASLSK past basic infantry rules (SK1).

Yes you do!  We need to wrap up our game of S2 and then move on to Guns (and then Tanks) and then full ASL!  Once you get AFV's in the game, it really takes on a whole new dimension and once you're comfortable with those, then full ASL comes pretty easily.

GJK is a good teacher, he's the one who sucked me back into ASL via the ASLSKs.

Quote from: Zulu1966 on December 30, 2016, 02:59:56 PM
What Manual ? I got an engine 4.0 manual with my download with all the new stuff in it so what are you talking about ?

The printed manuals that aren't coming out for several weeks. I ordered hardgoods.

It's not "bashing" to suggest the release was rushed, particularly since they say as much on their site. You should find better things to be outraged by.

While I appreciate the thought of trying to get a product out for xmas and the holidays, 4.0 was obviously rushed and a bunch of customers had to waste their time, s well as the time of the devs.  BFC has become very un-BFC-like in the last few years.

Quote from: Zulu1966 on December 30, 2016, 02:59:56 PM

Quote from: Zulu1966 on December 29, 2016, 09:46:59 PM

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on December 29, 2016, 04:31:29 PM

Quote from: Zulu1966 on December 29, 2016, 04:17:05 PM
May have had something to do with wanting to give their customers something new over the xmas period when a lot of people have time off.

May have had something to do with squeezing a little bit of extra income in at Christmas without being prepared to support the product, too. Their comments about not having the manual ready yet, or for some weeks, supports *that* interpretation.

Used to be BFC released stuff "when it's ready." RyanE seems to be on the money.

What Manual ? I got an engine 4.0 manual with my download with all the new stuff in it so what are you talking about ?

Not going to reply I see - yet another example of your BFC bashing without properly knowing the facts.

Would you stop baiting already?  We're actually having a decent conversation about CM4.0 and throwing in some related gaming conversation.  You've obviously got a hard-on for Dorosh but whatever issues you have, take it elsewhere please.

Quote from: RyanE on December 30, 2016, 03:29:11 PM
While I appreciate the thought of trying to get a product out for xmas and the holidays, 4.0 was obviously rushed and a bunch of customers had to waste their time, s well as the time of the devs.  BFC has become very un-BFC-like in the last few years.

Generally agree with this. I will give them credit for their customer support though. I've interfaced with customer service on just about all of my last few purchases from them. Sometimes due to my own stupidity - i.e. downloading the Mac version rather than the Windows version. The support I've received has always been good. This time was the same, I put in a ticket and then discovered I have two CMBN installations running in different places. IT Support Steve gave me very good service and even when I updated the ticket to indicate what I had done and the problem was solved, they still took the time to follow up.

By comparison, I subscribe to one of Turbine's MMORPGs. I never got a message that my cc had lapsed, just cut off my subscription without telling me. I put in a ticket before realizing what the likely issue was. Took them 9 calendar days to get back to me.

Quote from: RyanE on December 30, 2016, 03:29:11 PM
While I appreciate the thought of trying to get a product out for xmas and the holidays, 4.0 was obviously rushed and a bunch of customers had to waste their time, s well as the time of the devs.  BFC has become very un-BFC-like in the last few years.

That's a shame too.  Man I remember the community that formed around CMx1 back in the day.  People were working feverishly to make mods and scenarios and to discuss tactics and to add comments to the "wish list" of things that they'd like to see added to the game.  There's was that one long-ass thread for pbem game challenges...Peng!  That's what it was.  Trash talk a little and then get your game on.  Those were fun days.

Right - I can't be arsed going through their forums over there so if anyone can be arsed to answer me here I'd appreciate it

I bought the upgrade and downloaded the bundle..I deselected the full games, MacOS stuff and the v3 upgrades - so basically grabbed the v4 upgrades for my games.

I have
Fortress Italy
Red Thunder
Battle for Normandy
Black Sea

So BS and BN went ok. RT didn't want to use the key they gave me for the upgrade (which I successfully used for BN and BS)...so as mentioned on here I think I used the RT original key. So each of those games say Game Engine 4 now.

However - I noticed there's no FI. Is that coming? Is that the one they had problems with?

Quote from: JudgeDredd on December 30, 2016, 03:36:07 PM
Right - I can't be arsed going through their forums over there so if anyone can be arsed to answer me here I'd appreciate it

I bought the upgrade and downloaded the bundle..I deselected the full games, MacOS stuff and the v3 upgrades - so basically grabbed the v4 upgrades for my games.

I have
Fortress Italy
Red Thunder
Battle for Normandy
Black Sea

So BS and BN went ok. RT didn't want to use the key they gave me for the upgrade (which I successfully used for BN and BS)...so as mentioned on here I think I used the RT original key. So each of those games say Game Engine 4 now.

However - I noticed there's no FI. Is that coming? Is that the one they had problems with?

It's on the BFC site - CMFI is on hold, they have a bit more work to do. But your purchase should still be good.

Here's the announcement on the main battlefront.com page;

At long last, Combat Mission moves from Game Engine 3 to Game Engine 4!  In the Store you will find Upgrades for CMBN, CMRT, CMBS, and CMFB.  CMFI's needs a little more time in the oven, but it will be along shortly.

After we have a little time to recover there will be a central page of information about Game Engine 4.  For now just visit one of the supported CM Families in the Battlefront Store and look for the various Upgrade options.  The details are there for your viewing pleasure.

We offer a bunch of different purchase options, including product specific Upgrade 4 installers, specials for both Upgrade 3 and Upgrade 4 (where applicable), and the Upgrade mega pack with all 5 Families covered (including CMFI).  It was a last minute rush of minutia to get them out to you, so enjoy!

Also know that CMBN, CMRT, CMBS, and CMFB Base Games and Base Game Bundles are all using Game Engine 4 now.  CMFI, once we get some details ironed out, will also be at Game Engine 4.

Thanks Michael  O0

I've got CMSF, CMBN and CMRT and all nicely patched up to the latest 3.xx version (had to email BFC about a license key as I recall but they were quick to respond and reset the license).  What's your opinions; go ahead and do the 4.0 upgrade for just those two games or are there others in the series that are really "must have"?  Save for Sicily, I'm not too keen on the Italian/Med campaign stuff when it comes to gaming if that helps.  Oh, and FWIW, the game from this series that I've played the most (and that I think it is really well suited for) is CMSF - but that one's not getting the 4.0 upgrade?  Or did someone mention it's on a pause for the moment?  If it's forthcoming, I'll just wait unit it's done and get a 3-pack I think.

It might be cheaper just doing the bundle in the end.  One at a time is $10 a pop.  The bundle for 5 games is $25.

I don't think CMSF ever got upgraded beyond 1.0.  It, and Combat Mission: Afghanistan, seem to be the only titles that haven't received engine upgrades. My info may be wrong on it, but I've been trying to keep track of key milestone dates on my website:

http://www.tacticalwargamer.com/computergames/combatmission/combatmission.htm

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on December 30, 2016, 04:54:06 PM
I don't think CMSF ever got upgraded beyond 1.0.  It, and Combat Mission: Afghanistan, seem to be the only titles that haven't received engine upgrades.

Quite correct. There has been talk about the developers going back to CMSF and upgrading it to the newer engines.

Quote from: WallysWorld on December 30, 2016, 05:03:35 PM

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on December 30, 2016, 04:54:06 PM
I don't think CMSF ever got upgraded beyond 1.0.  It, and Combat Mission: Afghanistan, seem to be the only titles that haven't received engine upgrades.

Quite correct. There has been talk about the developers going back to CMSF and upgrading it to the newer engines.

Interesting- and I think it's the best of the series because of the unique content.  Hopefully they'll get it upgraded at some point.  Just checked and I have v1.32 of it. 

Quote from: GJK on December 30, 2016, 05:20:25 PM

Quote from: WallysWorld on December 30, 2016, 05:03:35 PM

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on December 30, 2016, 04:54:06 PM
I don't think CMSF ever got upgraded beyond 1.0.  It, and Combat Mission: Afghanistan, seem to be the only titles that haven't received engine upgrades.

Quite correct. There has been talk about the developers going back to CMSF and upgrading it to the newer engines.

Interesting- and I think it's the best of the series because of the unique content.  Hopefully they'll get it upgraded at some point.  Just checked and I have v1.32 of it.

^ I totally agree. IMO CM:SF is at least more appealing to me and I'd love to see it upgraded. I have all the modules for it too...but it's been left behind even though it was their opening into the world of CM2 (and took some flack because of the move).

I love how CMSF ended up, especially considering the tortured 4 year history it took to get there.  I go back and play it sometimes and realize how badly it runs on modern systems.  It runs like a dog on the 3-4 systems I have run it on recently.

But it is stuck in a nether world of playability.  It had a lot of nice features from CM1 stripped out of it.  But it has not benefited from BFC putting them back in for later CM2 games.  Its the worst of both worlds.

I stopped playing the Battlefront games, discouraged by all the paid updates.  Plus, prices always stay the same

Quote from: demjansk1942 on December 30, 2016, 06:47:03 PM
Plus, prices always stay the same

Not true, recently they actually increased the cost of each base game by $5 :)  They said because of inflation, but have to admit not sure I have seen other games increase prices with time...certainly have seen them not decrease (i.e. Matrix) but hard to think of those games where prices went up without anything added.

Also if your an existing customer, you are paying more for the product then new customers because of the updates.....for example if you buy CMBN right now, you pay $60 to get the latest and greatest.  But if you bought the game at the start, you paid $60 then you paid $10 for v2 upgrade, then $10 for v3 upgrade, and then $10 for v4 upgrade (assuming you didn't buy bundle)....total of $90.

As I have said before, I go into this with my eyes wide open and whether I fully agree with their practices or not, at the moment I am still willing to go along with it since I do like the games and not many other options out there right now.  And although my total cost of ownership is more, that is spread out over many years of playing the game so really doesn't impact me much.

Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 30, 2016, 07:02:33 PM

Quote from: demjansk1942 on December 30, 2016, 06:47:03 PM
Plus, prices always stay the same

Not true, recently they actually increased the cost of each base game by $5 :)  They said because of inflation, but have to admit not sure I have seen other games increase prices with time...certainly have seen them not decrease (i.e. Matrix) but hard to think of those games where prices went up without anything added.

Also if your an existing customer, you are paying more for the product then new customers because of the updates.....for example if you buy CMBN right now, you pay $60 to get the latest and greatest.  But if you bought the game at the start, you paid $60 then you paid $10 for v2 upgrade, then $10 for v3 upgrade, and then $10 for v4 upgrade (assuming you didn't buy bundle)....total of $90.

As I have said before, I go into this with my eyes wide open and whether I fully agree with their practices or not, at the moment I am still willing to go along with it since I do like the games and not many other options out there right now.  And although my total cost of ownership is more, that is spread out over many years of playing the game so really doesn't impact me much.

And on top of that, the WWII series is really one game with a ton of expansions.. but they some how made it into 3 - 4 games with some expansions..  I have CMBN, bought the 2.0 update.. Was thinking of getting the Market Garden 'expansion'. but in order to do that you have to buy updates and the expansion for like 50 bucks. .that's not an expansion price.

Quote from: Tuna on December 30, 2016, 11:53:29 PM

Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 30, 2016, 07:02:33 PM

Quote from: demjansk1942 on December 30, 2016, 06:47:03 PM
Plus, prices always stay the same

Not true, recently they actually increased the cost of each base game by $5 :)  They said because of inflation, but have to admit not sure I have seen other games increase prices with time...certainly have seen them not decrease (i.e. Matrix) but hard to think of those games where prices went up without anything added.

Also if your an existing customer, you are paying more for the product then new customers because of the updates.....for example if you buy CMBN right now, you pay $60 to get the latest and greatest.  But if you bought the game at the start, you paid $60 then you paid $10 for v2 upgrade, then $10 for v3 upgrade, and then $10 for v4 upgrade (assuming you didn't buy bundle)....total of $90.

As I have said before, I go into this with my eyes wide open and whether I fully agree with their practices or not, at the moment I am still willing to go along with it since I do like the games and not many other options out there right now.  And although my total cost of ownership is more, that is spread out over many years of playing the game so really doesn't impact me much.

And on top of that, the WWII series is really one game with a ton of expansions.. but they some how made it into 3 - 4 games with some expansions..  I have CMBN, bought the 2.0 update.. Was thinking of getting the Market Garden 'expansion'. but in order to do that you have to buy updates and the expansion for like 50 bucks. .that's not an expansion price.

I disagree. Its a game engine, just like Tiller's games, Grigsby's games, etc.
Its a sound business plan to sell seperate games and I have no problem with it.
Besides, if they would go the single game route and had to cram all content into one game we'd have 10 years between something playable.
I am glad they do different games.

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on December 30, 2016, 03:22:25 PM

Quote from: Zulu1966 on December 30, 2016, 02:59:56 PM
What Manual ? I got an engine 4.0 manual with my download with all the new stuff in it so what are you talking about ?

The printed manuals that aren't coming out for several weeks. I ordered hardgoods.

It's not "bashing" to suggest the release was rushed, particularly since they say as much on their site. You should find better things to be outraged by.

No you are implying it's rushed. Matrix recently released strategic command 3 without the hard copy being ready. Holding up the digital release for the tiny minority who still buy hardcopy would be frankly ridiculous and bad business which is what you say they are.

Quote from: Yskonyn on December 31, 2016, 02:16:02 AM

Quote from: Tuna on December 30, 2016, 11:53:29 PM

Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 30, 2016, 07:02:33 PM

Quote from: demjansk1942 on December 30, 2016, 06:47:03 PM
Plus, prices always stay the same

Not true, recently they actually increased the cost of each base game by $5 :)  They said because of inflation, but have to admit not sure I have seen other games increase prices with time...certainly have seen them not decrease (i.e. Matrix) but hard to think of those games where prices went up without anything added.

Also if your an existing customer, you are paying more for the product then new customers because of the updates.....for example if you buy CMBN right now, you pay $60 to get the latest and greatest.  But if you bought the game at the start, you paid $60 then you paid $10 for v2 upgrade, then $10 for v3 upgrade, and then $10 for v4 upgrade (assuming you didn't buy bundle)....total of $90.

As I have said before, I go into this with my eyes wide open and whether I fully agree with their practices or not, at the moment I am still willing to go along with it since I do like the games and not many other options out there right now.  And although my total cost of ownership is more, that is spread out over many years of playing the game so really doesn't impact me much.

And on top of that, the WWII series is really one game with a ton of expansions.. but they some how made it into 3 - 4 games with some expansions..  I have CMBN, bought the 2.0 update.. Was thinking of getting the Market Garden 'expansion'. but in order to do that you have to buy updates and the expansion for like 50 bucks. .that's not an expansion price.

I disagree. Its a game engine, just like Tiller's games, Grigsby's games, etc.
Its a sound business plan to sell seperate games and I have no problem with it.
Besides, if they would go the single game route and had to cram all content into one game we'd have 10 years between something playable.
I am glad they do different games.

I agree. Using this model they get more value but so do we. They also reverse patch the older games to bring them up to standard which is fine by me.
If you only want the original game. Just buy the original. It's your choice. It's not like it's required like a lot of online games to keep up with the community.
If you love a game you appreciate every scratch of content coming.

Quote from: Zulu1966 on December 31, 2016, 04:47:47 AMNo you are implying it's rushed. Matrix recently released strategic command 3 without the hard copy being ready. Holding up the digital release for the tiny minority who still buy hardcopy would be frankly ridiculous and bad business which is what you say they are.

I know you've elected to be severely butt-hurt over this, but misrepresenting what I said isn't really constructive.

Con: Just got a message back from the help desk those poor bastards are having to work troubleshooting CM 4.0 launch on Christmas so lets give them a break.

Dorosh: Why give them a break? They chose Christmas to release it - if they didn't want to support it, they could have waited until the new year.

Then you posted your unsupported belief about how BFC isn't in business to make money, but to do good deeds for worthy wargamers at Christmas. What this has to do with Matrix is anyone's guess.

Battlefront posts are always interesting to watch....they seem to follow the same life cycle every time.....

1)  Someone posts talking about an upcoming release of a new game/module/patch/upgrade....some initial excitement and wondering what it will bring.  Although very few posts.

2)  Then discussion immediately dives into how bad the DRM is, product updates come out too slow, bad marketing, poor support, etc.  Very little, if any discussion on the game itself.

3)  The new game/module/patch/upgrade is released, the discussions shifts towards how the cost is too high (or shouldn't have to pay for a patch debate), the install process is nuts, and people having problems installing.

4)  Then some forum members go back and forth at each other because of their view points about the company/game.

Through this entire life cycle, multiple pages of posts get created, with maybe 1% (or less) of the posts actually talking about the game itself.

Next release is mentioned, and rinse and repeat occurs.....not sure if there is any other company or game series which this happens, but pretty much a guarantee for this one.  And I am not saying it is either wrong or right or who's fault it is (i.e. customers, company, or both), just an observation.  But hopefully someday something changes with the product, company, and fans since it really is one of the few games that provides a tactical experience and would hate to see it ever disappear.

Quote from: Destraex on December 31, 2016, 05:25:47 AM

Quote from: Yskonyn on December 31, 2016, 02:16:02 AM

Quote from: Tuna on December 30, 2016, 11:53:29 PM

Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 30, 2016, 07:02:33 PM

Quote from: demjansk1942 on December 30, 2016, 06:47:03 PM
Plus, prices always stay the same

Not true, recently they actually increased the cost of each base game by $5 :)  They said because of inflation, but have to admit not sure I have seen other games increase prices with time...certainly have seen them not decrease (i.e. Matrix) but hard to think of those games where prices went up without anything added.

Also if your an existing customer, you are paying more for the product then new customers because of the updates.....for example if you buy CMBN right now, you pay $60 to get the latest and greatest.  But if you bought the game at the start, you paid $60 then you paid $10 for v2 upgrade, then $10 for v3 upgrade, and then $10 for v4 upgrade (assuming you didn't buy bundle)....total of $90.

As I have said before, I go into this with my eyes wide open and whether I fully agree with their practices or not, at the moment I am still willing to go along with it since I do like the games and not many other options out there right now.  And although my total cost of ownership is more, that is spread out over many years of playing the game so really doesn't impact me much.

And on top of that, the WWII series is really one game with a ton of expansions.. but they some how made it into 3 - 4 games with some expansions..  I have CMBN, bought the 2.0 update.. Was thinking of getting the Market Garden 'expansion'. but in order to do that you have to buy updates and the expansion for like 50 bucks. .that's not an expansion price.

I disagree. Its a game engine, just like Tiller's games, Grigsby's games, etc.
Its a sound business plan to sell seperate games and I have no problem with it.
Besides, if they would go the single game route and had to cram all content into one game we'd have 10 years between something playable.
I am glad they do different games.

I agree. Using this model they get more value but so do we. They also reverse patch the older games to bring them up to standard which is fine by me.
If you only want the original game. Just buy the original. It's your choice. It's not like it's required like a lot of online games to keep up with the community.
If you love a game you appreciate every scratch of content coming.

I'm not sure how they get more sales. It's a great game, I really enjoyed my PBEM's with Con.  I get tempted to grab more, but then I turn around and say "What else is out there". And my dollars are usually directed towards somewhere I will get more bang for the buck.

As I said, I was tempted to get Market Garden the other day, but see that I have to buy the 3/4 Update in order to do so.  I don't mean to say it should be one game because of the base price as much as the 'update' fee needed for each and everyone (under the hood it's the same game). So instead of being 25 bucks for a 'combo' update.. It should be a 10 dollar update to take care of the game. I get the fact that they want to charge for the updates because they want to make more money. But charge for multiple updates, because they want to get cash for each iteration?

Tiller as far as I know has not charged for updates over the years.

Nothing wrong with people wanting to support them, but some individuals may want to support other business models instead. Add in the DRM factor, that is a double whammy.

Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 31, 2016, 07:53:10 AM
Battlefront posts are always interesting to watch....they seem to follow the same life cycle every time.....

1)  Someone posts talking about an upcoming release of a new game/module/patch/upgrade....some initial excitement and wondering what it will bring.  Although very few posts.

2)  Then discussion immediately dives into how bad the DRM is, product updates come out too slow, bad marketing, poor support, etc.  Very little, if any discussion on the game itself.

3)  The new game/module/patch/upgrade is released, the discussions shifts towards how the cost is too high (or shouldn't have to pay for a patch debate), the install process is nuts, and people having problems installing.

4)  Then some forum members go back and forth at each other because of their view points about the company/game.

Through this entire life cycle, multiple pages of posts get created, with maybe 1% (or less) of the posts actually talking about the game itself.

Next release is mentioned, and rinse and repeat occurs.....not sure if there is any other company or game series which this happens, but pretty much a guarantee for this one.  And I am not saying it is either wrong or right or who's fault it is (i.e. customers, company, or both), just an observation.  But hopefully someday something changes with the product, company, and fans since it really is one of the few games that provides a tactical experience and would hate to see it ever disappear.

Very true GR...threads about specific games quickly change to bashing the publisher's business model. Happens with Paradox games as well. 

Nothing wrong with people wanting to support them, but some individuals may want to support other business models instead. Add in the DRM factor, that is a double whammy.


Well, as soon as there are suitable competitors to providing this kind of tactical game (personally, not a huge fan of Graviteam, plus they don't produce the areas I am interested), its hard to support other business models:)

Quote from: Rayfer on December 31, 2016, 09:20:13 AM

Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 31, 2016, 07:53:10 AM
Battlefront posts are always interesting to watch....they seem to follow the same life cycle every time.....

1)  Someone posts talking about an upcoming release of a new game/module/patch/upgrade....some initial excitement and wondering what it will bring.  Although very few posts.

2)  Then discussion immediately dives into how bad the DRM is, product updates come out too slow, bad marketing, poor support, etc.  Very little, if any discussion on the game itself.

3)  The new game/module/patch/upgrade is released, the discussions shifts towards how the cost is too high (or shouldn't have to pay for a patch debate), the install process is nuts, and people having problems installing.

4)  Then some forum members go back and forth at each other because of their view points about the company/game.

Through this entire life cycle, multiple pages of posts get created, with maybe 1% (or less) of the posts actually talking about the game itself.

Next release is mentioned, and rinse and repeat occurs.....not sure if there is any other company or game series which this happens, but pretty much a guarantee for this one.  And I am not saying it is either wrong or right or who's fault it is (i.e. customers, company, or both), just an observation.  But hopefully someday something changes with the product, company, and fans since it really is one of the few games that provides a tactical experience and would hate to see it ever disappear.

Very true GR...threads about specific games quickly change to bashing the publisher's business model. Happens with Paradox games as well.

Paradox does come close but I do believe gameplay gets discussed way more on their products, although some similar complaints about DLC, etc. get sprinkled in.

Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 31, 2016, 09:22:03 AM
Nothing wrong with people wanting to support them, but some individuals may want to support other business models instead. Add in the DRM factor, that is a double whammy.


Well, as soon as there are suitable competitors to providing this kind of tactical game (personally, not a huge fan of Graviteam, plus they don't produce the areas I am interested), its hard to support other business models:)

Nothing wrong with that. I think it's a great game too, I just try to behave with regards to purchases (My lucky wife). lol but the best business models are the ones where the developers get us to buy crap we never even play!!!!

Quote from: Tuna on December 31, 2016, 10:17:21 AM

Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 31, 2016, 09:22:03 AM
Nothing wrong with people wanting to support them, but some individuals may want to support other business models instead. Add in the DRM factor, that is a double whammy.


Well, as soon as there are suitable competitors to providing this kind of tactical game (personally, not a huge fan of Graviteam, plus they don't produce the areas I am interested), its hard to support other business models:)

Nothing wrong with that. I think it's a great game too, I just try to behave with regards to purchases (My lucky wife). lol but the best business models are the ones where the developers get us to buy crap we never even play!!!!

Can't argue that....although I certainly will buy games in 2017, hoping to limit them to ones I actually will play more than just a couple of times:)

Quote from: Grim.Reaper on December 31, 2016, 07:53:10 AM
Battlefront posts are always interesting to watch....they seem to follow the same life cycle every time.....

1)  Someone posts talking about an upcoming release of a new game/module/patch/upgrade....some initial excitement and wondering what it will bring.  Although very few posts.

2)  Then discussion immediately dives into how bad the DRM is, product updates come out too slow, bad marketing, poor support, etc.  Very little, if any discussion on the game itself.

3)  The new game/module/patch/upgrade is released, the discussions shifts towards how the cost is too high (or shouldn't have to pay for a patch debate), the install process is nuts, and people having problems installing.

4)  Then some forum members go back and forth at each other because of their view points about the company/game.

Through this entire life cycle, multiple pages of posts get created, with maybe 1% (or less) of the posts actually talking about the game itself.

Next release is mentioned, and rinse and repeat occurs.....not sure if there is any other company or game series which this happens, but pretty much a guarantee for this one.  And I am not saying it is either wrong or right or who's fault it is (i.e. customers, company, or both), just an observation.  But hopefully someday something changes with the product, company, and fans since it really is one of the few games that provides a tactical experience and would hate to see it ever disappear.

Cyrano and I were talking yesterday after an MP game of Scourge of War: Waterloo, and I suggested that the mods just archive this thread. Then, the next time BFC releases anything we can just post the archive and save everyone a lot of time and effort posting.

I'm really tempted to upgrade Black Sea to 4.0 just for the improved infantry behaviour. But can't see a vid of it anywhere. Odd how little effort those guys put in to show new stuff off.

Also, does anybody know this: I if buy CM Final Blitzkrieg or Red Thunder from new now for $60 will it be 4.0 from one buy?


Side observation- I could be wrong but it looks to me like Battlefront forums have tumbleweed compared to the Barbarossa to Berlin days.

I think someone already mentioned that if you buy a 'full' game you get the latest version.

Quote from: Tuna on January 01, 2017, 02:41:36 PM
I think someone already mentioned that if you buy a 'full' game you get the latest version.

Yeah, I did read that. That's how sort of 'not long-term view' that policy is. Because I don't quite believe it. May as well wait for then not so favourite conflict periods/theatres for the later upgraded version. That said, I guess it's less of an incentive to wait as most other companies quick depreciation into sales buckets.

Quote from: RyanE on December 24, 2016, 06:59:38 PM
Now that I can run it...

This a very subtle transformational change.  When CM2 started out, there were issues with defensively placed MGs not being able to effectively stop a small group infantry from approaching in the open.  They didn't fire often enough, the infantry didn't get suppressed fast enough, etc.  BFC made some good changes to fix that.  But one thing that was a disadvantage for the infantry is they clumped up and and always moved in a pretty straight column.  This allowed the fixed MGs to fire straight down the length of a squad and, once they had the range, mow the infantry down.  It was the one glaring issue in straight up open field infantry combat.  This upgrade seems to have fixed that now.   

I have an old MG test scenario in CMBN and now find that infantry approaching on a run will be stopped, but only after approaching within 300m.  My scenario has a simple HMG M1919 firing on a platoon on the move.  In the original CM2, the platoon could get within 150m and then gun down the MG crew.  In the fixed MG scenario, the MG stopped the platoon outside 500m, basically almost wiping out squads before they got pinned.  Now, the platoon gets to within 300m and then get gets pinned.  Now a real firefight develops at longer range.

I think this is a game changer for infantry combat and will push players to use real tactics against MGs and they can be effective.  The main change is squads a little more spread out, but mostly they don't move in straight columns.  Its fabulous to watch.

Great exposition of how the game has evolved over the past six years.

Quote from: RyanE on December 24, 2016, 06:59:38 PM
I also think some of the AI changes for scenario building will open scenario building up to players that have fewer skills with the tricks to get the AI to be a skilled opponent.

In my case, the new AI features allow to program a quite realistic attack plan, as you can now control facing and have a fire support element to actually do its job. Ammo consumption is a problem, though, and correct timing requires to "simulate" the plan and see what actually happens.

Quote from: fabius on January 01, 2017, 01:18:55 PM
I'm really tempted to upgrade Black Sea to 4.0 just for the improved infantry behaviour. But can't see a vid of it anywhere. Odd how little effort those guys put in to show new stuff off.

Also, does anybody know this: I if buy CM Final Blitzkrieg or Red Thunder from new now for $60 will it be 4.0 from one buy?


Side observation- I could be wrong but it looks to me like Battlefront forums have tumbleweed compared to the Barbarossa to Berlin days.

Just installed the update on Black Sea.  Haven't fired it up though.

QUESTION about the DEMO's - Are they updated to 4.0? Because this is the best way to demo to friends. The performance has improved with 4.0 and the experience is a little easier than before I think because of that.
Oh, and how do I set formations for my units as they move up? I move say 5 halftracks using the unit commander and they tend to single file. I don't want to make contact in single file and certainly don't want to micro manage so many units. Those Russian front battles seem to be huge.

I dont know about the demo.

If you doubleclick on a unit you will select every unit in its platoon.
If you then issue a movement command they retain spacing as best they can. So first you micromanage every unit to be in formation and then you move the whole platoon.

Thanks Yskonyn
Mine start in formation and then form line upon moving. I guess the terrain must be getting in the way. Or maybe I just need to watch to see them get back in formation when the opportunity presents.

Might it be because they are on standard move orders? They probably try to use roads then I guess.

None of this is my doing :)
These all started in line abreast and ended as soon as they moved in line astern. Like ww1 battlefleets. They were all moved using the commanders flag to highlight them by double clicking on the flag.
Incidentally I would also like my command vehicle in the middle or at the end. Minimising the risk of him getting killed first!

(https://c6.staticflickr.com/1/317/32037163221_ff8bca1058_b.jpg)


(https://c4.staticflickr.com/1/759/32037162451_4854686ddd_b.jpg)


(https://c4.staticflickr.com/1/630/32037161571_b848106b34_b.jpg)


(https://c8.staticflickr.com/1/407/31345283223_b32070b58a_b.jpg)

Quote from: Destraex on January 07, 2017, 01:17:51 AM
...
Incidentally I would also like my command vehicle in the middle or at the end. Minimising the risk of him getting killed first!

The only way to do that is manually move each unit. Double clicking the commander icon to select all his units leaves them in the "relative" positions they start. Though I don't know if that changed in 4.0

I do say I it does seem to perform better and is "less" clunky since 4.0

Here is me watching a quad Zugkraftwagen 8t (flakvierling 20mm) Flak take out a t34 85. These boys pack a punch.

Could they have actually taken out a T34 from the front then?

Quote from: RyanE on December 24, 2016, 06:59:38 PM
Now that I can run it...

This a very subtle transformational change.  When CM2 started out, there were issues with defensively placed MGs not being able to effectively stop a small group infantry from approaching in the open.  They didn't fire often enough, the infantry didn't get suppressed fast enough, etc.  BFC made some good changes to fix that.  But one thing that was a disadvantage for the infantry is they clumped up and and always moved in a pretty straight column.  This allowed the fixed MGs to fire straight down the length of a squad and, once they had the range, mow the infantry down.  It was the one glaring issue in straight up open field infantry combat.  This upgrade seems to have fixed that now.   

I have an old MG test scenario in CMBN and now find that infantry approaching on a run will be stopped, but only after approaching within 300m.  My scenario has a simple HMG M1919 firing on a platoon on the move.  In the original CM2, the platoon could get within 150m and then gun down the MG crew.  In the fixed MG scenario, the MG stopped the platoon outside 500m, basically almost wiping out squads before they got pinned.  Now, the platoon gets to within 300m and then get gets pinned.  Now a real firefight develops at longer range.

I think this is a game changer for infantry combat and will push players to use real tactics against MGs and they can be effective.  The main change is squads a little more spread out, but mostly they don't move in straight columns.  Its fabulous to watch.

I also think some of the AI changes for scenario building will open scenario building up to players that have fewer skills with the tricks to get the AI to be a skilled opponent.

Great info, thanks.

Per your last though - while I agree the addition of more tools for scenario designers is a great thing, it also has the ironic effect of making an already complicated process that much more labour-intensive. Scenario design for CM is not for the faint of heart. I don't consider myself any great shakes at it, but I've put an honest effort into a few designs and have started considerably more than I've finished. The first basic step, designing the map, is difficult (unless one undertakes the dubious practice of just rehashing one of the quick battle maps) and lengthy. And it's easy for the designer's enthusiasm to fizzle as he's reminded just how much work it is going to be to get to the end zone.

Once that hurdle is climbed, creating a plausible AI plan is complex, and more so with the last couple of rounds of improvements which provide the creator more flexibility. Unless you design it solely for human vs. human play, which seems to be a guarantee that few if anyone will bother playing it. Multiple AI plans are better than one, so then, having worked through the timings and problems of an AI that gives the appearance of being reactive, you go back to the top and get the AI to do something else.  And then there is the problem of testing it all to make sure it works as advertised.

These aren't complaints, just noting that every action has a reaction. There is actually a benefit in making the process this laborious, namely, I think you get a higher percentage of well thought out, entertaining scenarios. Compare to CMBO where the online hosting sites archived a lot of mediocre work through which to wade. And not everyone plays scenarios in any event, given the fairly robust quick battle generator and the number of excellent maps for it.

But if you're suggesting that more tools for scenario designers will mean more people designing them - I kind of think it might have the opposite effect. Speaking for myself, I feel a bit behind the curve as far as the new AI programming tools which is a *disincentive* to sitting down to go through the process - more tools means more to learn, if one wants the work to be any good. And the learning is a process in itself too, particularly with the very brief documentation that the game ships with. There are other ways to learn - reading the forums (which have some good tips and guides) - but all of this goes back to how much *work* is involved.

Great post, Michael and one to which I can relate bigtime;
I've made the effort to start getting involved in CMx2 scenario creation now on several occassions. Printed out various tutorials I could find (GeenAsJade's old Shock Force one is still a nice primer) as well as the Scenario Design AAR document that is bundled with the game.
Enthousiasm sky high in the 'planning phase' where you dream large about potential of your scenario, but waning once you get to the technical bits and realise its going to take a considerable amount of time.
In that, it's a whole seperate hobby almost!

Still, I think CM players deserve a lot more, good quality scenarios and I hope I can find the dedication and time to contribute some day.

I disagree.  More tools that provide flexibility for good AI reactions is very welcome.  The problem with the first version of the scenario editor is limited groups, limited AI actions, and limited AI reactions.  Using that same format made it easy to make bad and incomplete scenarios.  But it made it very difficult to make very good ones.

It is that limited feature set that I think has limited scenarios.  But with that said, the CM2 editor is the opposite of intuitive.  It takes a lot to get the most out of it.  At least now, some of those weird tricks a scenario designer had to do to make a good AI are now built into a few new tools.

Quote from: Yskonyn on January 07, 2017, 10:40:43 AM
Great post, Michael and one to which I can relate bigtime;
I've made the effort to start getting involved in CMx2 scenario creation now on several occassions. Printed out various tutorials I could find (GeenAsJade's old Shock Force one is still a nice primer) as well as the Scenario Design AAR document that is bundled with the game.
Enthousiasm sky high in the 'planning phase' where you dream large about potential of your scenario, but waning once you get to the technical bits and realise its going to take a considerable amount of time.
In that, it's a whole seperate hobby almost!

Still, I think CM players deserve a lot more, good quality scenarios and I hope I can find the dedication and time to contribute some day.

I hope so too! Will keep watching the scenario depot.

Quote from: Michael Dorosh on December 30, 2016, 03:22:25 PM

Quote from: Zulu1966 on December 30, 2016, 02:59:56 PM
What Manual ? I got an engine 4.0 manual with my download with all the new stuff in it so what are you talking about ?

The printed manuals that aren't coming out for several weeks. I ordered hardgoods.

It's not "bashing" to suggest the release was rushed, particularly since they say as much on their site. You should find better things to be outraged by.

Real life has kept me away for a while.

Not saying this in an effort to argue or support a position. Strictly FYI. BFC has not produced manuals or physical disc before digital release since they started releasing their products digitally. It's always been that way. Because they can offer their products immediately when they're finished with digital releases that's what they've always done. Sometimes things get added or removed not long before release so if you send the manuals to be printed before the release is complete it may have incorrect information in it. And, if the release is considered to be done, there is no reason to hold off the digital release until the manuals are back from the printer. Again, this is not new. They've never had the physical discs or manuals made before the digital releases.