Second Front (in Development)

Started by Jo B, August 13, 2019, 03:21:53 AM

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Skoop

I have feeling we aren't gonna miss a random map generator and still have plenty of replay ability.  There's a reason combat mission2 didn't have it either.

Thomas Davie

Quote from: Skoop on July 24, 2022, 02:08:26 PM
I have feeling we aren't gonna miss a random map generator and still have plenty of replay ability.  There's a reason combat mission2 didn't have it either.

And there were reasons I didn't buy any of the Combat Mission series.  :) You might not miss a random scenario generator - but others will (already, I am one). It was mentioned on Steam and here.

That's the great thing about having options; you would not be forced to use such a choice, no?

Steel Panthers (1995) had this feature 27 years ago.

You could be right in that most people will not miss it. I'll buy the game on day 1. That's my freebie. The cost of getting me to buy DLC's *is* a random scenario generator.

Tom

Axeking240

Theres 2 factors in a random scenario generator - the map and the forces.

Building a random map generator will take substantial effort - and all of that would be taking away from adding other features (like Brits).

And you will get better maps built by hand. There's a lot of people out there that can make good maps, and save the effort of making a random generator.

Building a random force generator - this is also a lot of work. It would be cool, but again, I wouldn't want to see a lot of other features delayed for this. And it is really a lot of challenge to get playable forces generated, because not only do the units need to be selected, they must also be positioned on the map reasonably. Shifting the VP locatons (or values) even a little bit can make a good setup completely worthless. There is a lot done to try and get the manually created scenarios as both fun and winnable - while making them challenging at the same time.

Given the quality of the map and scenario editors already in the game, if you were to skip on this because it currently doesn't plan to have random scenario generation, you will be missing out on a great game...

al_infierno

Yeah creating a *good* random map generator is not easy.  Just look at Panzer Corps 2, the random map generator is terrible and broken, but it's still there.

I'm with AxeKing.  If Jo thinks it's not worth the effort, I'm inclined to agree the development time would be better spent refining the game or adding new content and hand-crafted maps.
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Thomas Davie

Quote from: al_infierno on July 24, 2022, 03:56:38 PM
Yeah creating a *good* random map generator is not easy.  Just look at Panzer Corps 2, the random map generator is terrible and broken, but it's still there.

I'm with AxeKing.  If Jo thinks it's not worth the effort, I'm inclined to agree the development time would be better spent refining the game or adding new content and hand-crafted maps.

Fair enough. For me I'm honestly not sure if it will be a deal breaker or not. I used it in Steel Panthers, Combat Mission, Field of Glory II, Civ VI so it's quite likely that I would use it extensively in Second Front no matter it's form. I get that people would rather have the game sooner than later and that's ok.

Tom

JasonPratt

I'm okay with hand-crafted maps in this case. Workshopping will provide lots of content, if people like the game.

The random map generator in CMx1 was pretty barebones -- I ended up having to tweak it a lot for final usage. Basically it just served as the starting point for hand-crafting a map.
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Thomas Davie

Quote from: JasonPratt on July 25, 2022, 07:35:38 AM
I'm okay with hand-crafted maps in this case. Workshopping will provide lots of content, if people like the game.

The random map generator in CMx1 was pretty barebones -- I ended up having to tweak it a lot for final usage. Basically it just served as the starting point for hand-crafting a map.

And the tweaking is not a problem that I had with any of the games I listed, including stock CM. For me it was the start AND end point. I liked randomly generated maps and games.

I already know that people will like the game. However it's not them that I am buying from or relying on to get what I want.

I'll go out on a limb and guess that more people want British forces than a random generator  :) But honestly, I'm not one of them.

regards

Tom

Skoop

The random map thing could be something added down the road I bet if enough people request it.  I doubt the dev is going to hold up release for it at this point.  It's not a deal breaker for the majority, and I bet map making won't be that hard with this.

Axeking240

#638
Building maps with the included tools is pretty easy - and they look great!

The challenges with building a map are to make one that presents an interesting challenge, while still remaining playable. This is where it shifts from a function to an art...

  And once you master that art, it will be hard to not make maps and just play instead  :bd:

Axeking240

For those of you who are anxiously awaiting the arrival of Second Front, you can get a sneak peak at and an overview of both the Scenario Editor and Map Editor components with the guides posted on steam.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2850510768
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2847764259


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Michael Dorosh

Quote from: Skoop on July 25, 2022, 03:20:49 PM
The random map thing could be something added down the road I bet if enough people request it.  I doubt the dev is going to hold up release for it at this point.  It's not a deal breaker for the majority, and I bet map making won't be that hard with this.

There will be such a giant rush to recreate Squad Leader and ASL maps in the editor that no one will even notice a lack of random maps.

ArizonaTank

#642
Quote from: Michael Dorosh on October 09, 2022, 09:50:20 AM
Quote from: Skoop on July 25, 2022, 03:20:49 PM
The random map thing could be something added down the road I bet if enough people request it.  I doubt the dev is going to hold up release for it at this point.  It's not a deal breaker for the majority, and I bet map making won't be that hard with this.

There will be such a giant rush to recreate Squad Leader and ASL maps in the editor that no one will even notice a lack of random maps.

Sorry to call you on that one. I am at least one person who will miss random maps. But I do concede that based on this conversation, I am probably the only one...:)

One of the reasons that random maps have kept CMx1 on my HD so long, is that every time I play a random map game, I have to learn the terrain, as well as the situation. I have played CMx2 quite a bit against human opponents, where one, or both of us knew the map like the proverbial "back of our hand". Not as fun...because you are always thinking; 'well there is that cool depression 40 meters away where I got hull down on that Panther two plays ago...I just have to get over there and do the same thing again.' 

Learning the terrrain with each battle is a big part of immersion for me. Random maps are the only way to consistently get that.
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Bardolph

Quote from: ArizonaTank on October 09, 2022, 12:16:18 PM

Sorry to call you on that one. I am at least one person who will miss random maps. But I do concede that based on this conversation, I am probably the only one...:)

One of the reasons that random maps have kept CMx1 on my HD so long, is that every time I play a random map game, I have to learn the terrain, as well as the situation. I have played CMx2 quite a bit against human opponents, where one, or both of us knew the map like the proverbial "back of our hand". Not as fun...because you are always thinking; 'well there is that cool depression 40 meters away where I got hull down on that Panther two plays ago...I just have to get over there and do the same thing again.' 

Learning the terrrain with each battle is a big part of immersion for me. Random maps are the only way to consistently get that.



You aren't the only one.


Sigwolf

Quote from: Bardolph on October 09, 2022, 07:58:31 PM
You aren't the only one.
Not at all.  I am a single-player only wargame player.  Random maps are a huge thing.