Women and wargaming

[bayonetbrant]

Let's be honest, though - we often come across as quite elitist and curmudgeonly.  It's not an altogether unjust characterization, either. 

How often are you willing to hang out an explore any particular past-time / hobby / etc if the participants can be as off-putting as we can be when left unsupervised and in the vicinity of various spirits?

[Bison]

I make sure I shower at least once a week in order to not scare off the locals. 

[Capn Darwin]

Some of us are kinda scary looking too. We game for days without showering, and the only thing we clip with regularity is counters. I wouldn't want to game with us.  ???

[Rex Brynen]

Did this big research project ever stop to think that perhaps wargaming just doesn't interest all but a small slice of the female populace just as drinking wine and painting nails doesn't interest all but a small slice of the male populace?  I think there might of been design decisions that were put into this mix for a reason but we as the creations keep wanting distort the whole thing.

I think the suggestion that most women are preoccupied with "drinking wine and painting nails," coupled with the implication that some supreme being designed men to be wargamers, probably makes my point about welcoming atmosphere/barriers to entry pretty well.

It probably also explains why, when women are in contexts where those views are not held or expressed, they participate in conflict simulations in much larger numbers.

[Silent Disapproval Robot]

Stretcher bearer!  We have a wounded martyr down!!!!

[Bison]

Or the context involves women who are predisposed to playing wargames.  The reference while perhaps a bit sarcastic is that men and women prefer different activities in general.  The other fact is that most men don't take up wargaming either.  As far as a professional or educational setting,  both the men and women present most likely share common interests.  If they have an interest in international conflict or security studies, when presented with a game simulating those interests I'm sure many would be willing to participate.  Present the same material to a group of biologists and I'm willing to bet it wouldn't be as receptive an audience.  Present GMT's Dominate Species and it may very well be a different outcome.  Of corse this is all generalized assumptions, but I think there is merit to it.   As far as gaming clubs, well let's face it the premise of a club is to find like minded or similarly interested individuals to share the hobby.  And perhaps the stereotype of old crusty men prevents women from joining or it could just simply be the case that more men than women wan to spend hours moving napoleonic minis around a table.   There is a social and comraderie factor to a gaming club which isn't inherently bad just because it comprised of more men than women.  Perhaps men and women are just different not in intellectual ability, but in how they prefer to spend their time.  I bet if you looked into the local bars fantasy football or dart leagues, you'd see a different composition of genders making up the groups.

[Crazy Girl]

Women and Wargaming? Um, fascinating, where are the women on this forum. 
First of all I'd like to say that I have been reading this forum for quite some time now. Thank you Mr. Rex Brynen for bring me out of the shadows.
I haven't joined because I am not a gamer and do not feel worthy enough to take up space, or post about things that I really know nothing about. I can always contribute to general non-gaming stuff. Why do I read this forum you ask? Well, I was being a friend to someone who is amongst you, and I'm not going to go out of my way to expose him. I continued reading because, let's be honest it's entertaining reading how  grown men spend their leisure time... especially when they have disagreements among themselves and can't find some middle ground. It's like the blind leading the blind up in here. Sorry blind people, you're probably not reading this, but I don't want to offend anybody. Just trying to make a point. 
One of the reasons I am not a wargamer, I didn't grow up with the exposure. I honestly didn't know anything about it until a couple of months ago. We live in a sexist world. While my brothers were playing with their toys, I was told that I couldn't because their toys were for boys. But I wanted to play with some of that stuff. I wanted to play with Nerf products and Hot Wheels, stupid Battle Ship. But seriously? Girls drive cars, which was my argument. But that's okay. I grew up and restored my dying convertible at some point in my life, I can change a tire and give my cars an oil change. Thanks dad, because I know that mom told you not to teach me (she's the sexist one), but YOU ARE THE MAN. Nobody tells you what you can or cannot do... Damn, maybe it was reverse psychology. (Mental note: Call mom. Get some answers.)
Consider this: While you men are playing your "games," what are your wives/girlfriends doing? Taking the kids to school, doing some grocery shopping, doing laundry, cleaning house/dishes, getting kids from school, might have a full time or part time job, getting the kids from school then soccer practice or anything like that, maybe taking them to the doctor/dentist, making sure they are clean (I heard some of you don't shower for days, a bit gross, but hey I get turned on by a nice sweating man. Who am I to judge?) They also have to put them to bed.... Oh and then taking care of themselves, did I mention maybe making dinner... people have to eat. I know if I don't cook, people won't feed themselves. They'll just go to McDonald's and feed themselves some fake food, filled with empty calories that'll just clog the arteries. Which I'm okay to some extent, until they decide to include the dog in that adventure. Please don't feed your dogs bread, it's not good for them. Don't feed them any street food. Not cool. I recently had a conversation via text with a friend, this is how it went:

ME: No one wants to go out and I need a distraction... What the hell?
Him: So go out. Surely you have somewhere you can hang out? Maybe it's time to find a gaming store and hang out with some nerds. They're good people.
ME: You make it sound so easy. Besides, I don't really play those kinds of games. Too much for my tiny brain.
Him: Go to learn some easy ones. They'd help you figure it out. Plenty of good people hanging out that love to teach new people.

Going by myself anywhere in general sucks as a female. I'll admit, I've been told I'm cute, beautiful. Thanks, and my stress balls are nice, full and perky. WHATEVER. So getting hit on comes with the territory. Which is okay, but sometimes guys have a hard time focusing. I'm asking for something specific and I'm being told... "You would like this" or "You should play this". I know what I want, I've done some research, and I'm not some ditz man. So yes, I've been to those gaming stores many times to buy gifts for friends and family members, but the truth is most people don't have the patience to teach anyone anything unless they have the time. Most of the time people are in the middle of a game. You "guys" are always in the middle of a game. I lived with the "definitely next time" speech since college. Eventually you just give up. Most guys are assholes, nah, all guys are assholes (Yeah, I said it. Whatever.) No, but when I do come across some dude who is a jerk, man they seem to take the cake and I get totally turned off... I go to my corner and lick my wounds. I've come across other females with the same issue. But you do also have those females who say they are gamers, but are not. That's got to be annoying for anyone who is trying play. So, that just makes it harder for those, like myself, who are really interested. I'm not doing it because I need the attention, or want more attention. I just want to play with somebody. So, what do smart girls do, we teach ourselves a thing or two. Because, like Mr. Bison said...

I'd assume people are generally drawn to wargaming either through being exposed to it at a young age, by friends, or a "hook" that brings them to wargaming such as an interest in WW2.............. So there needs to be a strong appeal against every other hobby that will give someone the preference for it over other hobbies.  I still think that it's just a matter of interest.  You have to have enough interest to spend your time with something whether that's wargaming, bowling, cooking, or any other hobby.

Duh, If you are interested you are. If you are not, you are not... My best friend (oh, my a girl) and I have been talking about playing Risk for the longest time, my nephews are totally in, but our schedules are f*ed up so high... It just hasn't happened.
Also, I'm no one's show piece. Like a trophy wife/token. I am not going to sit there and be pretty. Okay, yes I will, but I will speak up. I have a lot to say (obviously). And you guys should read your own forums. You come off a bit misogynistic. I brought this up to my friend, the one I mentioned lurking about here on grogheads and other sites I'm sure. Honestly if I didn't know any better, I'd think he was a misogynistic asshole. I even asked him flat out about it and he responded with: "No of course I'm not a misogynist. I can't imagine why you'd ask me that.  :(" I explained myself to him. I don't know if he understood where I was coming from, but I'm still with him. He's awesome in person, just stupid online. I also told him that I support his misogynistic outbursts. I am not offended, because at the end of the day I myself and a self-proclaimed misanthropist. I don't believe in the idea of equal rights because we are not all equal. Simply example: Women look better naked then men. Bam! Just dropped the mic. And everyone should be able to express themselves however they want and people should stop being so sensitive. Life's too short to get hung up on the small things. 
Another thing....

.....perhaps the stereotype of old crusty men prevents women from joining.....

You think? No, you don't say. If you are going to hit on me, learn how to flirt. Flirting is an art, a skill. Don't be a pig, that's not cool. I know most men need their ego stroked (eh um, The Donald). But isn't kind of cool when a woman is in charge and giving you a "hard" time. Isn't awesome getting your ass kicked by a girl. Be a real man and recognize. Some women are just better then you. I've been told that I can be scary by some of my male friends, even females come to think of it. But honestly, guys say things that are a bit much at times, like rape jokes. Seriously? Again, I'm not offended, but I could have been. So maybe if we are nicer to each other we can get along better. And guys, if you have daughters, don't treat them too differently from your sons. Definitely don't exclude them because they are girls. We all deserve respect, men and women alike. 
So in the process I learned, that I get bored playing solitaire games. I'm a social creature and I like to kick people's asses. Most of them play Monopoly, I've read that most of you don't like this game. Well whatever, neither do I. But I like the people that I usually play with and I'm good at it. So until I find some people who genuinely wants to take me under their wing and I don't know, play with me... I will be one of those people excluded from the wargaming world who happens to be a female. Regardless of being a female, I do have things to do... like harass my friend about going church on Sunday because we're all sinners and he's been a bad boy.

[Bison]

Thanks for the lecture and welcome to the forums.

[Rex Brynen]

Thank you Mr. Rex Brynen for bring me out of the shadows.

My good deed for the day is done!  O:-)

[undercovergeek]

Women and Wargaming? Um, fascinating, where are the women on this forum. 
First of all I'd like to say that I have been reading this forum for quite some time now. Thank you Mr. Rex Brynen for bring me out of the shadows.
I haven't joined because I am not a gamer and do not feel worthy enough to take up space, or post about things that I really know nothing about. I can always contribute to general non-gaming stuff. Why do I read this forum you ask? Well, I was being a friend to someone who is amongst you, and I'm not going to go out of my way to expose him. I continued reading because, let's be honest it's entertaining reading how  grown men spend their leisure time... especially when they have disagreements among themselves and can't find some middle ground. It's like the blind leading the blind up in here. Sorry blind people, you're probably not reading this, but I don't want to offend anybody. Just trying to make a point. 
One of the reasons I am not a wargamer, I didn't grow up with the exposure. I honestly didn't know anything about it until a couple of months ago. We live in a sexist world. While my brothers were playing with their toys, I was told that I couldn't because their toys were for boys. But I wanted to play with some of that stuff. I wanted to play with Nerf products and Hot Wheels, stupid Battle Ship. But seriously? Girls drive cars, which was my argument. But that's okay. I grew up and restored my dying convertible at some point in my life, I can change a tire and give my cars an oil change. Thanks dad, because I know that mom told you not to teach me (she's the sexist one), but YOU ARE THE MAN. Nobody tells you what you can or cannot do... Damn, maybe it was reverse psychology. (Mental note: Call mom. Get some answers.)
Consider this: While you men are playing your "games," what are your wives/girlfriends doing? Taking the kids to school, doing some grocery shopping, doing laundry, cleaning house/dishes, getting kids from school, might have a full time or part time job, getting the kids from school then soccer practice or anything like that, maybe taking them to the doctor/dentist, making sure they are clean (I heard some of you don't shower for days, a bit gross, but hey I get turned on by a nice sweating man. Who am I to judge?) They also have to put them to bed.... Oh and then taking care of themselves, did I mention maybe making dinner... people have to eat. I know if I don't cook, people won't feed themselves. They'll just go to McDonald's and feed themselves some fake food, filled with empty calories that'll just clog the arteries. Which I'm okay to some extent, until they decide to include the dog in that adventure. Please don't feed your dogs bread, it's not good for them. Don't feed them any street food. Not cool. I recently had a conversation via text with a friend, this is how it went:

ME: No one wants to go out and I need a distraction... What the hell?
Him: So go out. Surely you have somewhere you can hang out? Maybe it's time to find a gaming store and hang out with some nerds. They're good people.
ME: You make it sound so easy. Besides, I don't really play those kinds of games. Too much for my tiny brain.
Him: Go to learn some easy ones. They'd help you figure it out. Plenty of good people hanging out that love to teach new people.

Going by myself anywhere in general sucks as a female. I'll admit, I've been told I'm cute, beautiful. Thanks, and my stress balls are nice, full and perky. WHATEVER. So getting hit on comes with the territory. Which is okay, but sometimes guys have a hard time focusing. I'm asking for something specific and I'm being told... "You would like this" or "You should play this". I know what I want, I've done some research, and I'm not some ditz man. So yes, I've been to those gaming stores many times to buy gifts for friends and family members, but the truth is most people don't have the patience to teach anyone anything unless they have the time. Most of the time people are in the middle of a game. You "guys" are always in the middle of a game. I lived with the "definitely next time" speech since college. Eventually you just give up. Most guys are assholes, nah, all guys are assholes (Yeah, I said it. Whatever.) No, but when I do come across some dude who is a jerk, man they seem to take the cake and I get totally turned off... I go to my corner and lick my wounds. I've come across other females with the same issue. But you do also have those females who say they are gamers, but are not. That's got to be annoying for anyone who is trying play. So, that just makes it harder for those, like myself, who are really interested. I'm not doing it because I need the attention, or want more attention. I just want to play with somebody. So, what do smart girls do, we teach ourselves a thing or two. Because, like Mr. Bison said...

I'd assume people are generally drawn to wargaming either through being exposed to it at a young age, by friends, or a "hook" that brings them to wargaming such as an interest in WW2.............. So there needs to be a strong appeal against every other hobby that will give someone the preference for it over other hobbies.  I still think that it's just a matter of interest.  You have to have enough interest to spend your time with something whether that's wargaming, bowling, cooking, or any other hobby.

Duh, If you are interested you are. If you are not, you are not... My best friend (oh, my a girl) and I have been talking about playing Risk for the longest time, my nephews are totally in, but our schedules are f*ed up so high... It just hasn't happened.
Also, I'm no one's show piece. Like a trophy wife/token. I am not going to sit there and be pretty. Okay, yes I will, but I will speak up. I have a lot to say (obviously). And you guys should read your own forums. You come off a bit misogynistic. I brought this up to my friend, the one I mentioned lurking about here on grogheads and other sites I'm sure. Honestly if I didn't know any better, I'd think he was a misogynistic asshole. I even asked him flat out about it and he responded with: "No of course I'm not a misogynist. I can't imagine why you'd ask me that.  :(" I explained myself to him. I don't know if he understood where I was coming from, but I'm still with him. He's awesome in person, just stupid online. I also told him that I support his misogynistic outbursts. I am not offended, because at the end of the day I myself and a self-proclaimed misanthropist. I don't believe in the idea of equal rights because we are not all equal. Simply example: Women look better naked then men. Bam! Just dropped the mic. And everyone should be able to express themselves however they want and people should stop being so sensitive. Life's too short to get hung up on the small things. 
Another thing....

.....perhaps the stereotype of old crusty men prevents women from joining.....

You think? No, you don't say. If you are going to hit on me, learn how to flirt. Flirting is an art, a skill. Don't be a pig, that's not cool. I know most men need their ego stroked (eh um, The Donald). But isn't kind of cool when a woman is in charge and giving you a "hard" time. Isn't awesome getting your ass kicked by a girl. Be a real man and recognize. Some women are just better then you. I've been told that I can be scary by some of my male friends, even females come to think of it. But honestly, guys say things that are a bit much at times, like rape jokes. Seriously? Again, I'm not offended, but I could have been. So maybe if we are nicer to each other we can get along better. And guys, if you have daughters, don't treat them too differently from your sons. Definitely don't exclude them because they are girls. We all deserve respect, men and women alike. 
So in the process I learned, that I get bored playing solitaire games. I'm a social creature and I like to kick people's asses. Most of them play Monopoly, I've read that most of you don't like this game. Well whatever, neither do I. But I like the people that I usually play with and I'm good at it. So until I find some people who genuinely wants to take me under their wing and I don't know, play with me... I will be one of those people excluded from the wargaming world who happens to be a female. Regardless of being a female, I do have things to do... like harass my friend about going church on Sunday because we're all sinners and he's been a bad boy.

youre not Wodin are you?

[Crazy Girl]

Thanks for the lecture and welcome to the forums.

No, no, no. That was not a lecture. That was simply a sharing of my personal experience as to why I am not part of your inner circle.
And thank you...

My good deed for the day is done!  O:-)

No good deed goes unpunished.  >:D No good deed.

youre not Wodin are you?

I'm not going to lie to you, I don't know what a Wodin is.

[mirth]

Someone pass the popcorn.

[bbmike]

My money's on Star.  ;D

[undercovergeek]

I'm not going to lie to you, I don't know what a Wodin is.

ive got to be honest, neither do we

[bbmike]

Oops, I forgot. Welcome, Crazy Girl!  O0