Thunderbolt Apache Leader AAR

[JudgeDredd]

No Barthheart - when I get a mo, I'll post on BGG or where you mentioned...though I haven't heard of that place before.

As for combining - NO! I'm still finding this game has quite alot to do - I'm not sure about mixing it up with Hornet Leader too!


MikGer

I got those rules - but the reason I posed the question was because there's no definitive mention of it in the rules - therefore unclear - at least to me.

The reason it's unclear is I don't think units should remain hidden if they are attacking. Also, being the atacking player with the missin to destroy as many units as possible, I don't see it should be down to me to decide if a unit can attack and be forced out of cover or not.

Now the Enemy Attack rule does say "After Fast Aircraft attack, all surviving Enemy Units attack". I guess that's my answer. But there are two reasons I don't like it and don't think it suits -
1) As I said, I don't think a unit can attack and remain in cover
2) There is 1 chance (just 1 chance mind you) to get units out of cover - and that's on a roll of 10 - and I do NOT think that's enough. Especially with so many chances to move units into cover. A roll of between 2 and 9 inclusive puts units in cover. I haven't once had a roll of 0 (no units go to cover), not one turn has resulted in me not moving a unit into cover and I have only twice rolled a 10!

imo it makes stand off weapons almost useless. So I'm almost at the point of introducing a house rule that if a unit is going to attack from cover, then it should come out of cover. Perhaps I need to roll to determine if a unit in range and LOS can attack - and if I roll and it can, then it comes out of cover.

It's just my opinion I think this mechanic is pretty one sided.

[Barthheart]

No Barthheart - when I get a mo, I'll post on BGG or where you mentioned...though I haven't heard of that place before.
....

CSW = ConsimWorld.com

Their forum page for DVG games is here:
http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX/?8@@.1dd08621

[JudgeDredd]

Ta muchly  :D

[Grimnirsson]

though I haven't heard of that place before.

A wargamer who has not heard of CSW? You kidding, hm? ;)

[MikeGER]

imo it makes stand off weapons almost useless.

Judge, i see your point !
...but isn't just that urgency part of the 'simulation'?  ;)

usually you have 5 turns over the battlefield,
and all units start in the open, randomly spread out over 10 hexes

some don't have ridges to flee to
some units get not effected by a dice roll
(well, if the first roll just brings the most dangerous SAM or the Heli i planed to kill first from a distance , into cover... well, C'est la guerre!"  >:( )   

...so there should be still a target rich environment for stand-offs in the first 2 or 3 loiter turns
i think that its natural, that the longer a battalion is exposed to an actual air-threat in the area, more and more of its components seek cover any stay

IMHO: 'cover' in TAL is more abstract like 'a cover rich environment' its not 'real cover' or 'hidden' = out of touch (the unit would have no LOS itself, not even inside its hex)  ...the units are just harder to 'lock-on' and their reaction time has to get shortened to score a hit

...a Maverick flies approx 300m/sec, so a TAL stand-off attack from 3hex = 4.5km away would give 15 sec reaction time to the unit 'in a cover rich environment' to pop smoke and move out of harms way into 'real cover' behind a ridge-top, around a bend of a wadi, etc.
let say a Marder drives 8m/sec off road (approx30 km/h) and has about only 10sec of the time left, he could still sprint away 80m behind 'some high rocks'  ...while from 1.5 km its just the initial 5 sec i subtracted ...so no way    

i guess this is the place for rule discussion?                 
http://boardgamegeek.com/forums/thing/123955/thunderbolt-apache-leader

[JudgeDredd]

Thanks for putting my rant into perspective MG

I guess those two bad missions I had (I mean - REALLY bad!) were just the straw needed to get me to post here  :)

[JudgeDredd]

The more I'm playing the game, the more it seems unbalanced.

I guess it's just my opinion because if there were any hardcore players finding issues, I'm sure they would've noticed something by now.

These little things obviously only come to light if you experience them...so for someone who hasn't come across my particular situation, then it clearly isn't something they'd agree with - but I have come across a campaign which is tough beyond measure. That's partly down to the rules and partly down to bad luck.

My example is this.

I choose Iran 2014. I wanted to use the new kit and I wanted a longish campaign, so I choose Holding Action. The others weren't too different given the length of campaign I wanted to do.

So - for Iran 2014 you pick 36 points of Enemy Battalions. I ended up with (count them) 6 Assault Battalions, 3 Support Battalions and 3 Command Battalions. 12 Battalions!

So - the makeup of Holding Action is I get +5 SO points at each days end - ahhh...BUT it also states that I lose 1 SO for each Full Strength Command Battalion. So - at the end of day 1 - if I have 3 Full Strength Command Battalions the most I get is 2 SOs.

Right - so I either attack 3 Command Battalions (not likely given a. the WP penalty of -4!) or leave em. I decide to leave them - and why? Well, because 2 of the Battalions choose state "Lose 1 SO Point at the start of each day"....wow. So - if I don't take out the 3 Command Battalions AND the two Support Battalions, then I'm going to lose 5 SOs. Meaning if those 5 Battalions are intact each day, I gain NO SOs!

But wait - there's another twist. I have to attack an Assault Battalion. Because one of them is in the Friendly Transit area and will be on my doorstep soon and the campaign will end. So I have to attack that right?

Then there's the other Assault Battalion where I get to add 2 to it's movement rolls and another Battalion that states I have to add 2 to ALL battalion moves - almost guaranteeing one battalion a move forward and almost making sure all battalions move forward (and at the end of day one they did!)

So - I have some really tough choices on the battalions to attack.

But back to the SO issue. At the end of day one, I now have two unfit pilots with 10+ stress, one is wounded too. 2 pilots who are almost unfit. I have an A-10C with Bullet Holes and damage to Pylons, Controls, Hud and Structure and and F-16 with Bullet Holes and damage to Hud(x2), Engine, Cannon and Display.

Neither of those aircraft are repairable - why? Because I have 2 SOs left at the end of day 1.

Now - bear in mind with 3 Command Battalions on the battlefield (-3 SOs) and 2 Support Battalions (-3 SOs) - I stand to LOSE (not gain) 1 SO at the start of day 2. I have only two left. Meaning at the start of day 2 I have 1 SO.

This all comes about - as I said - through rules and luck (vast majority here being pretty bad luck) but the game seems to start you with way too few SOs. Aicraft are extremely expensive. An A-10C, AH-64D, F-16, RQ-1 and AH-1 cost me 26 SOs. I only had 30 to start with! Weapons cost 1 SO for every 10 points of weapons with an SO cost. Sure - you don't have to use SO weapons - and can destroy a battalion without them - but only if you have serviceable aircraft. Which I don't.

This is my third game - and both games before this one have been outstanding. Not because I won - in fact I failed at my second only scraping a poor result. Everything that can go wrong has done on this campaign.

This is in part to the hit chits - as mentioned before almost every chit guarantees a hit on your aircraft and in part to SOs and their lack thereof...made only worse by the campaign and battalion cards...and I've not even factoed in the Mission Event and Special Event cards which can seriously dent your campaign.

As it stands - now, in Day 2 of this campaign I have lost the campaign. I will be out of SOs and there's nothing I can do about it...I will just be out of SO's at the end of Day 2. There's absolutely nothing I can do to remedy that - and it's because I now (after day one) have unserviceable aircraft and I cannot gain any SOs because of the Battalion cards present and the rules on the Campaign card.

Bear in mind I am MASSIVELY frustrated with this campaign - I just wanted to point out how difficult this is.

WHat would've been the solution? Well, taking out the 3 Command Battalions on Day 1 - but how would that even be possible with 1xA-10C, 1xAH-64D, 1xF-16 and 1xAH-1? At the very most I could've taken two out (I've tried single aircraft attacks and they've never gone good). With that done, I was wtill going to lose 1 SO - and the other 3 SOs the Battalion cards dealt me - so I was still going to lose 4 SOs at the end of day one! (granted I would've collected 2 for the two battalions destroyed going by the Campaign card). But I'd never have taken out those 2 Command Battalions anyway - losing 4 weight points would've crippled my aircraft.

I'm going to do some reading about rather than playing because I am seriously stressed out with this one.

It's a rant - nothing more. Tough campaign followed by really bad Battalion selection and extremely bad results over the battlefield have ended this campaign on day one.

[MikeGER]

now that is a tough call of a campaign puzzle to solve  :o

mmh... let me think...
helpful things that come to mind which ive learned from watching all those 'lonesome gamer playing TAL' AAR Videos
(btw. ...he play Iran 2014 too but a different situation ...i also 'learned' i could dare to play (and survive) without any fast pilots on a mission... i am still feeling uncomfortable in my game without getting the first shot ;)) 

# if you manage to 'half' a Battalion, its 'nasty effect' printed on the card doesn't apply any more. (and a -3 modifier on its movement rolls too) ...but i don't found that written in the rule-book yet ? (-edit- its on page4) 
and you get 1/2 (rounded down) VP ... now these VPs from day one can 'save the day' 

# if you gained some VP you can replace an aircraft for 2VPs (and salvage undamaged parts) and replace a Pilot (same skill  level) for 1 VP

well, so you don't manage a glorious campaign victory, but at least can stay in the game a little bit longer and maybe score later in the last days of the campaign when killing off all those 'halved Battalions' to cash in the remaining VPs   
and walk away with an "Adequate"

also this guy plays with that 'concentrate rule' (from his Phantom Leader days,  i guess)

# if you pay 1Stress you can add +1 to the next dice roll 

while the correct TAL-rule is:
# if you want this Optional Rule enabled you pay 2SO at the beginning of the campaign first
#  then you can pay 1 Stress to add a +1 to ALL ! attack-rolls of this pilot in this turn
(so an MK20 in a populated hex and an I-rated bomb into another, ...or a volley of several 4(7) Pods into a hex with several targets attacking each with a pod   ... maybe the +1 can become handy in critical situations)


     

[JudgeDredd]

Damn you MikeGer for taking away my unhappy!  ;)

Sure - I get all the "fixes"...my bitch was mainly about me (cleverly disguised as a bitch about the game) because I hadn't spotted the flaw in my plan which was I should've attacked at least one Command Battalion. But honestly - the mix of stuff that happened that game was just a HUGE downer!

My F-16 and A-10C were totally screwed.

The F-16 had -2 on Strikes, -2 on Stand off, -2 on Cannon AND I was placing my aircraft just right ready to go in for a kill (before all this damage). For example I placed my aircraft just right ready to jump over a ridge and press a strike on 4 units in a hex with my MK-20s and I would get a light hit saying "No Strike" - a turn or two later I positioned myself just right to volley 3 GBUs into a hex and I pulled a light chit that said "No Standoff"! Honestly - the bad luck and rolls were unbearable.

I remember one turn where my A-10C came under attack from no less than 5 units (possibly bad placement? But I had to put him in the hex he was in for an attack)...anyway...5 times I rolled for ECM and 5 times it failed...resulting in 5 hits!

Weapons - MK-20s are so cool when there's a few units in a hex.

Anyway - I was just venting at some really, really bad luck.

[MikeGER]

Maybe its best fitting in here, caus its about TAL   
(no spoiling of JD's younger AARs with chatter and i also didn't want to put it in the latest DVG Huey thread also )


here is a screenshot of TAL Vassal module play (max zoomed out, just to show whats all in  there, of course i play in more zoomed)
i am after the first loiter-turn and now planing my actions for the next loiter-turn  (see finger)

...and got a rule question too:
The Falcon (green-frame) pilot is in low, and he is fast and has 2-3 moves available.
I plan to change to high, let the Falcon  devaste hex#6 with  a a stand off ( if they don't hide into cover with the cover roll) and then move to hex #8  facing loutside... but that are only 2 moves and i have 3 because its the falcon... so i would like to leave the map with that 3rd move now.
but then the enemy would get no chance to pop up a counter and maybe return fire? ,
or can i only move to hex# 8 'have to wait at the border until next loiter-turn,  sit-out the possible fire from pop up counter' and then leave the map ?                       

[JudgeDredd]

That looks amazing! Thanks MikeGer

I like the feel and book keeping of a board game - but I've been playing some Band of Heroes Vassal whilst I was on holiday and it was really enjoyable

So I think I'll be getting these and others

Thanks

[Barthheart]

...and got a rule question too:
The Falcon (green-frame) pilot is in low, and he is fast and has 2-3 moves available.
I plan to change to high, let the Falcon  devaste hex#6 with  a a stand off ( if they don't hide into cover with the cover roll) and then move to hex #8  facing loutside... but that are only 2 moves and i have 3 because its the falcon... so i would like to leave the map with that 3rd move now.
but then the enemy would get no chance to pop up a counter and maybe return fire? ,
or can i only move to hex# 8 'have to wait at the border until next loiter-turn,  sit-out the possible fire from pop up counter' and then leave the map ?                     

Yes, you can immediately leave the map and not get hit by enemy fire. One of the big bonuses of being a fast pilot.