http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/08/20/uss-john-s-mccain-collides-with-merchant-ship-in-pacific.html
QuoteThe guided-missile destroyer USS John S. McCain was involved in a collision with a merchant vessel east of Singapore and the Strait of Malacca, the Navy said in a tweet.
Initial reports indicate the warship sustained damage to its port side aft.
No immediate word on any casualties. Search and rescue efforts are under way in coordination with local authorities, the Navy said.
The warship is named after John S. McCain, Sr., and John S. McCain, Jr., both Admirals in the U.S. Navy, and the grandfather and father, respectively, of the Arizona senator.
Reports of 5 injured and 10 missing.
Video of damage
https://www.facebook.com/ChannelNewsAsia/videos/10154906995412934/
Article
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/us-warship-collides-with-oil-tanker-near-singapore-10-sailors-9141592?view=DEFAULT
That looks pretty serious. Maybe the bow-bulge thing from the tanker hit there? Probably lots of flooding inside.
My dad is a Korean War navy vet and his comments on these accidents are pretty telling. "This does not look like a navy that is ready to fight a war. "
I bet a bunch of senior heads are going to roll
Seriously. Extremely embarrassing and concerning. There is clearly a major deficiency in training somewhere and I suspect an over-reliance on complex technology.
Quote from: Con on August 21, 2017, 11:34:11 AM
My dad is a Korean War navy vet and his comments on these accidents are pretty telling. "This does not look like a navy that is ready to fight a war. "
I bet a bunch of senior heads are going to roll
Yeah, there's going to be a shake up for sure.
The upside (if you can call it that) is that the sailors onboard who are having to deal with these fuck-ups have responded in the best traditions of the service
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/13591/navy-releases-harrowing-report-on-fitzgerald-collision-begins-punishing-sailors (http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/13591/navy-releases-harrowing-report-on-fitzgerald-collision-begins-punishing-sailors)
Quote from: Con on August 21, 2017, 11:34:11 AM
My dad is a Korean War navy vet and his comments on these accidents are pretty telling. "This does not look like a navy that is ready to fight a war. "
I bet a bunch of senior heads are going to roll
Yep.
Quote from: Con on August 21, 2017, 11:34:11 AM
My dad is a Korean War navy vet and his comments on these accidents are pretty telling. "This does not look like a navy that is ready to fight a war. "
I bet a bunch of senior heads are going to roll
I know. If they can't avoid a lumbering merchant ship how do they expect to survive in a combat situation? If I was on a carrier I'd be nervous about those ships who are supposed to be protecting me.
Quote from: Sir Slash on August 21, 2017, 10:06:55 AM
That looks pretty serious. Maybe the bow-bulge thing from the tanker hit there? Probably lots of flooding inside.
Yes. The tanker had damage to the bow. It looks like a torpedo hit.
[tinfoilhat] I'm actually wondering if there is a darker force at work.
Why are these accidents all happening in the 7th fleet and specifically to vessels that would be a key part of fleet defense? Is it possible that the software used to process the ships' sensors' data has been hacked somehow? [/tinfoilhat]
If we're going to go conspiracy theory, you have to wonder if there's agenda behind these merchies crashing into billion dollar destroyers while they patrol the Far East.
It is all at the very least most convenient for at least two someones in the area, one for short term gain and one for long term PR and Realpolitik.
Top U.S. Navy admiral orders "operational pause" in US fleets worldwide following #USSJohnSMcCain collision.
https://www.facebook.com/ChannelNewsAsia/videos/10154907976367934/
Opportune time for the enemy to attack.
Opportune time for the Fleet to get its head out of its ass.
Quote from: Staggerwing on August 21, 2017, 07:22:08 PM
[tinfoilhat] I'm actually wondering if there is a darker force at work.
Why are these accidents all happening in the 7th fleet and specifically to vessels that would be a key part of fleet defense? Is it possible that the software used to process the ships' sensors' data has been hacked somehow? [/tinfoilhat]
Again talking from my dad who was a petty officer10 years in no matter what the technology there should be multiple sailors on watch who's only job is to take visual bearings on all ships in visible range. If the bearing doesn't change then you are on a collision course. These accidents all occurred in fairly good visibility. His conclusion was goofing off and lack of chief petty officer bearing down hard on the slackers and bridge officers not focusing on their duties. Shit happens fast
They're probably required to keep watch for endangered sea turtles and refugees claiming asylum from Capitalist persecution instead of oncoming traffic. :P
https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/899957838189129729
Does the Navy still use human observers to track the course and bearing of its ships, or is everything done digitally?
I think the answer to that question is they had better be using people because the digital is letting them down.... :buck2:
Quote from: jomni on August 21, 2017, 07:12:33 PM
Quote from: Sir Slash on August 21, 2017, 10:06:55 AM
That looks pretty serious. Maybe the bow-bulge thing from the tanker hit there? Probably lots of flooding inside.
Yes. The tanker had damage to the bow. It looks like a torpedo hit.
It was a crew sleeping berth on the McCain that was hit and flooded. Damage was compartmentalized, so at least the damage control systems were working. Divers were headed into the flooded areas for recovery of the missing, if they're still in there.
The tanker had minor cosmetic damage. When you're the rammer and not the rammed, you don't generally get as messed up. If any of you have even been around a major commercial freighter (my late father-in-law worked some massive ones, and in that area) you see just how huge they are. For comparison, I've been on the USS Yorktown at Patriot's Point in Charleston, and the commercial freighters aren't much smaller than an older aircraft carrier.
That size also makes them about as nimble as a bulldozer in a tar pit.
Quote from: Staggerwing on August 21, 2017, 07:22:08 PM
[tinfoilhat] I'm actually wondering if there is a darker force at work.
Why are these accidents all happening in the 7th fleet and specifically to vessels that would be a key part of fleet defense? Is it possible that the software used to process the ships' sensors' data has been hacked somehow? [/tinfoilhat]
You're not the first one to wonder if there isn't some sort of interference at work, either globally through some sort of cyber network, or locally with some sort of jamming / interference.
Quote from: Con on August 21, 2017, 08:55:08 PMAgain talking from my dad who was a petty officer 10 years in no matter what the technology there should be multiple sailors on watch who's only job is to take visual bearings on all ships in visible range. If the bearing doesn't change then you are on a collision course. These accidents all occurred in fairly good visibility. His conclusion was goofing off and lack of chief petty officer bearing down hard on the slackers and bridge officers not focusing on their duties. Shit happens fast
There was a great conversation with the CG of USACAPOC back in 2009 talking about digital systems and solder-skill degradation, and one specific point was the over-reliance on digital maps. He pointed at the 54" screen we were using to demo some software for them and said "You see that thing? Put a bullet hole in it and we've got a $4500 doorstop. Give me a $10 paper map and put a bullet hole in it, and you know what I've got? A map, with about one square inch I can't use."
Now, he wasn't slagging us. He was talking about how so few of his soldiers could read the map info underneath what we were displaying on the screen, and how so many of them were relying on other charts and data instead of geospatial analysis to get a sense of the terrain.
The point still stands, though - in the era of digitization, non-digital skills have completely atrophied. How many of us have heard anyone under 30 say "I don't need to look at the map; I'll just follow the GPS instructions."?
Great points! I've learned the hard way to always look over a map before going anywhere on a trip with my wife. She relies on her phone GPS, which is great but you really need a general understanding of where you're going and what's ahead of you. Probably much worse vs monster Merchants and Tankers.
Quote from: Con on August 21, 2017, 08:55:08 PM
Quote from: Staggerwing on August 21, 2017, 07:22:08 PM
[tinfoilhat] I'm actually wondering if there is a darker force at work.
Why are these accidents all happening in the 7th fleet and specifically to vessels that would be a key part of fleet defense? Is it possible that the software used to process the ships' sensors' data has been hacked somehow? [/tinfoilhat]
Again talking from my dad who was a petty officer10 years in no matter what the technology there should be multiple sailors on watch who's only job is to take visual bearings on all ships in visible range. If the bearing doesn't change then you are on a collision course. These accidents all occurred in fairly good visibility. His conclusion was goofing off and lack of chief petty officer bearing down hard on the slackers and bridge officers not focusing on their duties. Shit happens fast
On the amphib I served on, a watch would have an officer of the deck, junior officer of the deck, conning officer, helmsman, lee helmsman, quartermaster (at least one if not 2-3), and at least three lookouts. I suspect the manning for an underway watch on a DDG in the congested waters of the Strait of Malacca would be similar.
On the contrary, the manning for an underway watch on a commercial freighter, of which my father-in-law is a captain, could be as few as a single person with only a radar and no actual lookouts.
Before we go throwing darts at the crew of the McCain, how about we get a little bit of evidence to support the darts? Could be the entire deck watch was screwing around. It could also be that the McCain was operating in some of the most congested waters in the world with little room to maneuver, and was clipped by a much larger ship that had an extremely limited deck watch and failed to follow the international rules of the road.
Quote from: mirth on August 21, 2017, 08:05:01 PM
Opportune time for the Fleet to get its head out of its ass.
It might also be an opportunity to assess whether the two collisions in succession are related, just bad luck, or a deficiency in the Navy's charting, training, etc.
An operational pause doesn't confer guilt, or that anyone's head is up their ass, but rather is a prudent way to evaluate current operating procedures and ensure the Navy is doing everything possible to mitigate these incidents.
Running into another ship in the middle of the ocean has nothing to do with reading a map. It has to do with opening your eyes! :)
https://twitter.com/defense_news/status/900164370180825089
I'd love to know the behind-the-scenes discussions that occurred between PACFLT and C7F.
On a related, but separate note, I started re-reading Black Shoe Carrier Admiral by Lundstrom today. Did you know that Fletcher had two collisions of ships of which he was in command before he became the bad-ass carrier Admiral for Coral Sea, Midway, and Eastern Solomons?
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0988b8f8-88fa-11e7-a8f3-117a3aea90d9
can you copy paste, Im not registering on that site.
And there are problems with the Atlantic Fleet too...
New evidence of dismal readiness among Navy's Japan-based ships (http://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/09/06/new-evidence-of-dismal-readiness-among-navys-japan-based-ships/?utm_source=grogheads)
QuoteReadiness among the crews of Japan-based cruisers and destroyers has plummeted in recent years, leaving nearly 40 percent of crew warfare certifications expired as of June, according to a government watchdog group slated to testify before Congress Thursday.
More than two-thirds of the lapsed crew certifications — including those for mobility-seamanship and air warfare — had been expired for at least five months, according to a copy of a Government Accountability Office testimony to Congress obtained by the Military Times.
"This represents more than a fivefold increase in the percentage of expired warfare certifications for these ships since our May 2015 report," GAO Defense Capabilities and Management Director John H. Pendleton's testimony read.
The Navy's Japan-based 7th Fleet has been the target of scrutiny and criticism since the August collision of the destroyer John S. McCain with an oil tanker, which followed the Fitzgerald's June collision with a cargo ship.
In total, 17 sailors died in the McCain and Fitz disasters. The commanding officer for 7th Fleet was relieved of command shortly after the McCain collision.
Pendleton is slated to testify before the House Armed Services Committee's Seapower and Projection Forces Subcommittee Thursday afternoon. The testimony is based on ongoing GAO research of Navy readiness that began months ago before the two fatal collisions put 7th Fleet under a microscope.
An advance copy of the testimony warns that the Navy faces a difficult future of concurrent priorities.
But how that can happen in the near term remains unclear on several fronts.
The GAO notes that crew reductions enacted in the early 2000s "were not analytically supported," and that some sailors now work more than 100 hours a week, creating potential safety risks.
The Navy's current 277-ship fleet is down from the 333 ships the Navy had in 1998, but the number of ships deployed overseas has consistently remained at about 100 vessels, meaning individual ships are deployed more to maintain the same level of presence.
Forty ships are home-ported overseas today, up from 20 in 2006, according to the GAO.
Those permanently deployed ships "do not have designated ramp-up and ramp-down maintenance and training periods built into their operational schedules," the testimony notes.
Such vital maintenance is done via shorter, more frequent maintenance periods, or put off entirely for up to a decade until the ship returns to a U.S.-based homeport, according to the GAO testimony.
The relentless operational demands placed on those overseas crews means there is no dedicated training time for sailors, resulting in a "train on the margins" approach, the testimony states.
The GAO recommended the Navy develop a sustainable operational schedule for ships based overseas, and the Defense Department reported in 2015 that such a schedule had been developed.
But Pacific Fleet officials told the GAO such revisions were still under review.
The GAO testimony focuses on the certification of ship crews to perform certain operations. For example, aircraft carriers get certified for fixed-wing flight deck operations or rotary-wing flight deck operations. Warfare qualifications for individual sailors never expire.
While today's crews are being overworked, there is nevertheless widespread talk in Washington about growing the fleet to a new target of 350 ships. A growing fleet would require more sailors, and the GAO warns that a funding source for growing the ranks remains unclear.
The Navy's current crisis comes at a time when the sea service expects to be contested by conventional naval forces in the future, a challenge to its dominance of the seas not seen since the Cold War.
Still, the Navy's problems are not unique, the GAO notes.
America's military branches "are generally smaller and less combat ready than they have been in many years," according to the testimony.
Each branch has had to cut training, modernization and maintenance due to budget restraints, all while while fighting continuous conflicts worldwide since 2001.
^damn
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/27/us/politics/navy-orders-safety-operational-standards.html
I hear the sound of laughter coming from the Old Admirals Section of Heaven right now. O:-)
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/15654/heres-whats-in-the-navys-damning-new-reports-on-its-destroyer-collisions
Wow...that is really bad.
QuoteWhen the John McCain collided with the chemical tanker M/V Alnic MC on Aug. 21, 2017, "complacency, over-confidence, and lack of procedural compliance," were major factors in the accident.
Sounds like my old man had it right bridge officers not doing their job - coupled with poor training and bad decisions (maybe he was harsh on the goofing off comment but thats old sailors for you.
QuoteHis conclusion was goofing off and lack of chief petty officer bearing down hard on the slackers and bridge officers not focusing on their duties. Shit happens fast
Yeah, I don't know that I'd say goofing off, but it's pretty bad that these guys didn't understand their engineering and navigation systems, and could be qualified OOD without a thorough understanding of the rules of the road. That's bread and butter stuff for surface warfare officers, and there simply isn't a good excuse, period.
The CO of the second ship will be lucky if he isn't held criminally negligent, IMO.
https://twitter.com/DanLamothe/status/933017892433559552
That's because they've been very busy making penis trails in the sky. You have to have priorities.
Navy is charging the COs with negligent homicide
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17724/us-navy-to-charge-ex-destroyer-commanders-with-negligent-homicide-over-deadly-collisions