$1.5BILLION treasure found on sunken Spanish galleon: First look at the wreck of the San Jose, 300 years after it was sunk by a British warship near Colombia
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3347952/Wreckage-300-year-old-Spanish-galleon-holding-1-5BILLION-gold-silver-coins.html
Quote
- Colombia's president says deep-sea divers have found the wreck of a Spanish galleon that was sunk 300 years ago with 600 people aboard
- The ship is believed to have been carrying up to 11million gold coins, emeralds and other precious stones
- It was sunk off the coast of Baru near the remote Rosario Islands in an attack by the Royal Navy in 1708
Wow! It's amazing that much wealth was trusted in the care of a single ship.
I love reading of these discoveries, but it's sobering to remember that 600 people died when that ship went down.
Yeah, even those are today's values on the treasure, it's still a staggering amount in a single ship. Sounds like the Spanish were getting desperate by that time in the conflict as they were loading warships with treasure to try and protect it from their enemies and pirates.
The article states that there were 30 to 90 ship convoys going back and forth to Spain during that time period.... that's a mind boggling amount of shipping and loot crossing the ocean! :o
And 600 people lost... that's massive ship for the time.
I wonder the actual dimension of the ship. I've seen some replication ships from the era and I cannot imagine one big enough to house 600 people.
It really makes you wonder at the amount of wealth in terms of gold and precious stones that were actually pulled out of South/Central America and sent back to Europe.
Quote from: Barthheart on December 08, 2015, 12:43:38 PM
Yeah, even those are today's values on the treasure, it's still a staggering amount in a single ship. Sounds like the Spanish were getting desperate by that time in the conflict as they were loading warships with treasure to try and protect it from their enemies and pirates.
The article states that there were 30 to 90 ship convoys going back and forth to Spain during that time period.... that's a mind boggling amount of shipping and loot crossing the ocean! :o
They were desperate. The English, French, and Dutch would variously and periodically declare open season on the Spanish. There was simply too much wealth coming out of the new world to be ignored.
If you haven't read the history of Captain Morgan you ought to.
Here's a great read: http://www.amazon.com/Empire-Blue-Water-Americas-Catastrophe/dp/0307236617
Quote from: Bison on December 08, 2015, 12:48:10 PM
I wonder the actual dimension of the ship. I've seen some replication ships from the era and I cannot imagine one big enough to house 600 people.
According to here:
http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/caribbeantales/ships_galleon.html
It doesn't sound like they were that large:
QuoteThey ran about 30-50 m long, 8 m wide, standing upto 15 m out of the water, carrying from 600 to 2000 tonnes of cargo. They had two to three decks. Most galleons were four masted ships, although some were only three, forward masts being square-rigged, lateen-sails on the mizzenmast, and a small square sail on her high-rising bowsprit.. The stern most mast was known as the bon-adventure mast and was rigged with a lanteen sails which gave the ship great maneuverability especially in the wind. For their size, Galleons had great speed (about eight knots).
QuoteA typical crew would consist of around 200 men. The Galleon could also carry as many as 40 paying passengers.
Maybe most of the 600 were slaves?
Quote from: Bison on December 08, 2015, 12:48:10 PM
It really makes you wonder at the amount of wealth in terms of gold and precious stones that were actually pulled out of South/Central America and sent back to Europe.
According to Wikki:
QuoteWalton[36] gives the following figures in pesos. For the 300-year period the peso or piece of eight had about 25 grams of silver, about the same as the German thaler, Dutch rijksdaalder or the US silver dollar. A single galleon might carry 2 million pesos. The modern approximate value of the estimated 4 billion pesos produced during the period would come to $527,270,000,000 or €469,839,661,964 (based on silver bullion prices of May 2015).
Holy crap $500+ billion? Insane.
Spain now laying claim to the wreck:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-35036121
QuoteSpanish Foreign Minister Jose Garcia-Margallo said Spain wanted an amicable agreement with Colombia over the ship and its contents.
But he said Spain would be prepared to defend its interests at the UN if necessary.
The minister said that there was a UNESCO convention that stipulated that this type of wreck "belonged to the state, was the result of war, and was not a private boat".
That's gotta be a tough sell at the UN. Hey we legally extorted and exploited our way to this wealth in one of our previous colonies! I'm pretty sure the UN isn't big on colonization rights. The hearing might actually prove to be quite entertaining.
Painting of the battle:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Samuel_Scott_3.jpg/1280px-Samuel_Scott_3.jpg)
Quote from: Bison on December 08, 2015, 01:24:42 PM
That's gotta be a tough sell at the UN. Hey we legally extorted and exploited our way to this wealth in one of our previous colonies! I'm pretty sure the UN isn't big on colonization rights. The hearing might actually prove to be quite entertaining.
That would be my guess as well.
This topic really puts me in the mood for an Age of Sails type game.
A good friend of mine/co-worker/GH forum lurker lives in Columbia, and he just sent me this reply when I asked if he'd heard about this story locally. (He said it was okay for me to quote his reply to me.)
Quote...due to this discovery, now Colombia is in a really heavy legal battle since Britain and Spain are claiming ownership of the treasure. Spain, becasue the ship belonged to them, and Britain, because they sunk the ship and it is a war treasure. Colombia is pushing hard since the treasure was stolen by the Spaniard conquerors and it sunk in Colombian territory. Now the government is on hold by an international court in the US while its determined its ownership (which can be a legal battle that lasts years). The location of the treasure is remained highly confidential by the Colombian government while things are cleared up. I just hope it stays here in Colombia so people can see the treasure at a museum or something. Experts are saying that the amount of gold, emeralds, rubies, diamonds, pearls, etc., is enormous so it will take years to take everything out of the water but I bet it'll be an awesome spectacle.
Yeah, I'll bet the Brits were mightily pissed when she blew up and couldn't be captured.
Still think the only ones with a real claim are the Colombians....
Yeah I'd tend to side with Colombian claims too. It'd be great if all of the artifacts recovered to include the treasure were placed into a museum for public viewing.
I dunno - possession is nine tenths of the law. Spaniards had it last. But the wreck is probably within Colombian territorial waters.
If they're smart, they'll split it 50/50. Considering all the coke the Colombians illegally export they really don't deserve more than than, and probably a lot less.
Quote from: LongBlade on December 08, 2015, 02:03:07 PM
But the wreck is probably within Colombian territorial waters.
Yes, it is.
Agreed, it should be Colombian. I can't understand Britain even trying to put in a claim. Either side would be like saying either Germany or Russia has legal right to a recently re-discovered Nazi train filled with gold yanked from fillings that Soviet tanks blew off a bridge.
As for the 600 men, I fully expect those were soldiers rotating home and/or doing guard duty so that pirates or privateers would have little choice but to risk losing the cargo by gunfire rather than try to board her.
Quote from: JasonPratt on December 08, 2015, 02:04:49 PM
I can't understand Britain even trying to put in a claim.
There's no logic involved when it's 1.5
Billion (with a "
B") involved.
I'm sure there were more than a few other governments trying to come up with a legally feasible (not logically feasible, just legally feasible) way of staking a claim in that rich stuff, too.
Quote from: JasonPratt on December 08, 2015, 02:04:49 PM
As for the 600 men, I fully expect those were soldiers rotating home and/or doing guard duty so that pirates or privateers would have little choice but to risk losing the cargo by gunfire rather than try to board her.
The "600" number was probably an estimation of the total losses from the battle. Not just the single galleon.
But, yeah, there were probably some extras heading back across the pond too.
Doubt there were many slaves heading back to Europe in a Spanish Treasure Fleet. They had all hands busy working the mines in central & south america like mad at that time. The reason for those massive treasure fleet hauls (and high miner mortality rates).
Duh, I forgot it was a fleet action. :uglystupid2: :crazy2:
Still, tactically would make sense for them to be crammed as full as possible with troops (and supplies for troops). Gold is heavy but not that bulky, more ditto gems, and the haul would have been spread out on the fleet as much as possible (not counting screening ships more likely to be lost).
Pretty sure everything I've read so far it is that all the loot mentioned so far was all on one ship. Same goes for 600 crew.
aren't salvage laws usually slanted in favor of "he who finds the wreck"?
Quote from: bayonetbrant on December 09, 2015, 11:56:20 AM
aren't salvage laws usually slanted in favor of "he who finds the wreck"?
According to Wikipedia, yes.
QuoteConcept of salvage under Maritime Law
The right to be rewarded for salvage at sea under common law is based both on equitable principles and public policy and is not contractual in origin. Historically, salvage is a right in law, when a person, acting as a volunteer (that is, without any pre-existing contractual or other legal duty so to act) preserves or contributes so to preserving at sea any vessel, cargo, freight, or other recognized subject of salvage from danger. This is the typical case of salvage and is distinct from Prize law, which is the rescuing of property from the enemy at a time of war, for which a reward is made by the Court of Admiralty sitting as a Prize Court.
The law seeks to do what is fair to both the property owners and the salvors. The right to salvage may not necessarily arise out of an actual contract but is a legal liability arising out of the fact that property has been recovered. The property owner who had benefit of the salvor's efforts must make remuneration, regardless of whether he had formed a contract or not. The assumption here is that when faced with the loss of his vessel and cargo, a reasonable prudent owner would have accepted salvage terms offered, even if time did not permit such negotiations.
Conditions required
Although salvage laws vary from one country to another, generally there are conditions that must be met to allow a claim of salvage. The article under salvage must be fit into certain recognized categories. The vessel must be in peril, which is defined broadly. The person rendering aid (the "salvor") must be acting voluntarily and under no pre-existing contract. Finally, the salvor must be successful in his efforts, though payment for partial success can be granted in certain circumstances.
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_salvage
^ Within the above quote there is a link to Prize Law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prize_%28law%29
Clearly this vessel was not taken as a prize (it was sunk) but I suspect the Brits are glomming on to this because they *attempted* to take the vessel as a prize and most assuredly played a role in putting the vessel in danger - a key component of salvage law.
Tell that to Mel Fisher. He had to fight the state of Fla. for years over the wrecks he found off the keys. The only one who's hit a gold mine here will probably be the lawyers.
Quote from: Sir Slash on December 09, 2015, 02:54:22 PM
Tell that to Mel Fisher. He had to fight the state of Fla. for years over the wrecks he found off the keys. The only one who's hit a gold mine here will probably be the lawyers.
We are talking about Colombia here - the big winner is likely to be the government officials in charge of antiquities.