one of those headlines I really never expected to read.
John Vandiver, Stars and Stripes, April 4, 2013
http://www.stripes.com/news/us-army-...rmany-1.214977
STUTTGART, Germany — The U.S. Army's 69-year history of basing main battle tanks on German soil quietly ended last month when 22 Abrams tanks, a main feature of armored combat units throughout the Cold War, embarked for the U.S.
The departure of the last M-1 Abrams tanks coincides with the inactivation of two of the Army's Germany-based heavy brigades. Last year, the 170th Infantry out of Baumholder disbanded. And the 172nd Separate Infantry Brigade at Grafenwöhr is in the process of doing the same.
On March 18, the remaining tanks were loaded up at the 21st Theater Sustainment Command's railhead in Kaiserslautern where they then made the journey to the shipping port in Bremerhaven, Germany. There they boarded a ship bound for South Carolina.
The tanks belonged to the 172nd along with a mix that were leftover from other units, according to the 21st TSC.
"It is an honor to be one of the soldiers escorting the last battle tanks out of Germany," said Sgt. Jeremy Jordan of the 529th Military Police Company, in an Army story about the journey. "As these tanks sail back to the U.S., we are closing a chapter in history."
From World War II on through the Cold War, tanker units were a heavy presence in Germany. At its peak, Germany was home to 20 NATO armored divisions, or about 6,000 tanks, according to the 21st TSC.
"There is no [U.S.] tank on German soil. It's a historic moment," said Lt. Col. Wayne Marotto, 21st TSC spokesman.
That's surprising. I didn't realize we had drawn down to that extent. Here's hoping we never have to base tanks in Germany again.
Hmm...makes me wonder who, if anyone, is planning on replacing them. Are the germans fielding more of their own now? Are the Russians eyeing everything with a greedy Cold War mentality? Are the French looking across the border and.quietly whispering "finally...no we can plan our revenge, again."
It may just be a sign of the times. Do we really need to be a major player in Western Europe anymore? I'm sure the Germans are capable of taking care of their own defense. Hell they economically dominate Europe now anyway. Our focus going forward is going to be Africa, Asia and the Pac Rim.
Quote from: Gusington on April 05, 2013, 07:53:26 AM
Are the French looking across the border and.quietly whispering "finally...no we can plan our revenge, again."
They're probably reading their monthly edition of
Girlie Men Magazine and preparing a generic surrender treaty....
Quote from: MIGMaster on April 05, 2013, 08:29:12 AM
Quote from: Gusington on April 05, 2013, 07:53:26 AM
Are the French looking across the border and.quietly whispering "finally...no we can plan our revenge, again."
They're probably reading their monthly edition of Girlie Men Magazine and preparing a generic surrender treaty....
And eating cheese. Don't forget the cheese eating.
Quote from: MIGMaster on April 05, 2013, 08:29:12 AM
Quote from: Gusington on April 05, 2013, 07:53:26 AM
Are the French looking across the border and.quietly whispering "finally...no we can plan our revenge, again."
They're probably reading their monthly edition of Girlie Men Magazine and preparing a generic surrender treaty....
I really like France. You know what you rarely see in France? You rarely see a fat French woman. And they always dress up to go out. Even wretched old crones
going out to block the aisles of grocery stores dress up to go out. No WalMart beauties, hillbilly obesetrons with a pack of lard assed, snot nosed trailer park bastards in trail.
The food is good too. France is a beautiful country even if it is an all washed up prosperous socialist hell with good living and beautiful women. In other words
a failed nation. Ripe for the next invasion. They think Americans are provincial, ignorant and rude but they are more than willing to take your money.
Best health care in the civilised world. In the places where the fighting was heaviest in 1944 there are monument to allied troops everywhere. Almost all of them are
put up and maintained by the local people. They are usually dedicated to the particular battalion which liberated or blew the sh*t out of their town.
More French civilians were killed in the Normandy fighting than allied soldiers.
It's end of an era.
After the last 100 years, Germany got what it wanted in the first place...eco-domination of Western Europe.
I am sure the Germans are deeply regretting the passing of the last of the occupation armies.
In some places the local NATO establishments were a big part of the economy.
Although they sometime resented us being around to protect them.
Many Canadian soldiers used their posting to Germany to make a small fortune in automobile trading.
For a long time they could ship over a family vehicle. So before going to Lahr... buy a top of the line North AM style SUV
with borrowed money. Sell for much dollars in West Germany. Buy a beat up used car for family.
Before coming home borrow from the bank and buy a nice BMW or Mercedes to ship back.
Sell for much money. Buy beat up used car for family. When a private was making 110 bux a month this
could pay for University.
Quote from: mirth on April 05, 2013, 08:32:54 AM
And eating cheese. Don't forget the cheese eating.
I eat cheese sometimes. So it's not like it's got a strong correlation to anything. Except for folks who are lactose intolerant. Personally, I don't like intolerant people, but what do I know?
Do you know the vast majority of the people in the world are lactose intolerant/deficient? Somewhere on the order of 75%. That is a lot of people to not like.
I like to eat cheese. Cheese makes some people fart. I do not like these people. I do not like people who eat cheese and fart in elevators, tents or Hondas.
I recall reading somewhere that folks of Northern European decent have lower incidence of Lactose Intolerance than folk from other parts of the world. Must be from those long neolithic winters eating Aurochs jerky and drinking milk fresh from the cow or as hard cheese that can survive longer before spoiling,as opposed to a more plant-based diet in warmer climes with longer growing seasons.
Quote from: Longdan on April 05, 2013, 03:51:21 PM
Do you know the vast majority of the people in the world are lactose intolerant/deficient? Somewhere on the order of 75%. That is a lot of people to not like.
I like to eat cheese. Cheese makes some people fart. I do not like these people.
In fairness, 100% of real people fart. Though I'm not sure about Windy. Something about zero emissions but I've never enquired as to the details. Presumably it's from a renewable resource. Like cork.
About twenty years ago, ran into a former army tech sergeant who kept the dozen or so tanks of the Berlin garrison working. His name was Jay Sager and was a distributor for the Washington Post newspaper at the time.
While in West Berlin, it always irked him to see the Russian monument of the first JSII into Berlin. Was a really big thing for the Soviets and they were always getting it into the newspapers. It just got under his skin and burned him.
On a Reforger exercise, he went to a base in Bavaria and found they had about eight working Sherman M4s there.
Somehow, he got one of those onto a railroad car to Berlin.
The East German vopos inspected the train, but were easily bought off with a bottle of Johnnie Walker Black.
This was the first Sherman tank into Berlin.
At the annual parade celebrating the end of the war, he got it into the line and drove it.
Now, the Soviets knew exactly how many tanks were allowed in the West Berlin garrison by treaty and immediately saw that the US had snuck in one over the limit.
A rocket went up and then down the chain of command, landing on Jay. His commanding officer didn't care how he got it there, it just couldn't work. So Jay took a welding torch and burned the transmission into slag.
And for all he knew, it was still on base, lauded as the first american Sherman tank into Berlin.
^ Heh. Great story :)
Quote from: Staggerwing on April 05, 2013, 04:51:06 PM
I recall reading somewhere that folks of Northern European decent have lower incidence of Lactose Intolerance than folk from other parts of the world. Must be from those long neolithic winters eating Aurochs jerky and drinking milk fresh from the cow or as hard cheese that can survive longer before spoiling,as opposed to a more plant-based diet in warmer climes with longer growing seasons.
This is all pretty much true. One of the mutations may have originated in Sweden which is apparently the most lactose tolerant group of people the whole world over.
Starts with milk, then socialism, then porn, then who knows?
Quote from: Longdan on April 05, 2013, 08:39:18 PM
Quote from: Staggerwing on April 05, 2013, 04:51:06 PM
I recall reading somewhere that folks of Northern European decent have lower incidence of Lactose Intolerance than folk from other parts of the world. Must be from those long neolithic winters eating Aurochs jerky and drinking milk fresh from the cow or as hard cheese that can survive longer before spoiling,as opposed to a more plant-based diet in warmer climes with longer growing seasons.
This is all pretty much true. One of the mutations may have originated in Sweden which is apparently the most lactose tolerant group of people the whole world over.
Starts with milk, then socialism, then porn, then who knows?
You left out Vikings. The Vikings were big on wealth redistribution, too, you know.
But they were capitalists.
Getting back to tanks (but just for a minute), Jay had another West Berlin story.
The East Germans were always trying to annoy the West Berliners and the allies. One thing that the treaty did not allow was putting up the name of the East German government, Deutsches Demokratic Republik - DDR. For some reason, this was not allowed by the treaty governing Berlin.
The big train depot was adjacent to the French zone of West Berlin.
One day, the vopos painted DDR on a water tower that overlooked the wall.
Everyone complained, but of course the commies ignored it. The French sent a note that if the sign were not removed by twelve noon, they would remove it.
At exactly 11AM, the six tanks of the French garrison drove up to the wall and aimed their guns at the water tower. A French colonel got out of one and ostentatiously took out a stop watch and clicked it on. He then just waited.
The vopo in charge of that section of the Wall came over to complain and the colonel just ignored him and pointed to the stop watch.
Everyone in the West Berlin garrison was put on alert. Those crazy French were going to start a shooting match. Cables were burning with war warnings going to NATO headquarters in Brussels, the Corps commands in the south were put on combat alert, and even the Dutch - the DUTCH - went to full alert.
This was really serious if the Dutch got worried.
At 11:50, two older railroad workers climbed up the ladder with a can of paint. Everyone on the radio circuits heard it and tried to watch. It was a big sign, could they cover it all up in ten minutes? If not would the French carry out their threat and take out the sign, the tower, and the two workmen?
Working fast, they covered up the first D, and then scurried down the ladder. Taking the D out, left DR which was the logo of the Deutsches Reichsbahn, or German Railways.
The vopo came over, "Satisfied?"
The French colonel looked up before replying. From his expression you knew he was thinking, 'Damn, I really wanted to take out that tower."
"Oui", he said, clicked off the stopwatch, got into his tank, and led the column back to barracks.
The whole West Berlin garrison was shocked that the French would stand toe to toe with the East Germans over a sign. The respect level went up considerably. For about a week. (The french can't help themselves...they're still french.)
Quote from: Longdan on April 05, 2013, 10:58:52 PM
But they were capitalists.
Au contraire. Socialism is the forced removal of wealth from one group to another. Capitalism is self-directed. Now if the monks from Lindisfarne had sailed into the Viking villages and given them all their loot in exchange for milk - that would be capitalism.
Another fine story, Bes :)
Thanks.
Awesome stories, besliarius. Thanks for sharing them. 8)
Quote from: LongBlade on April 06, 2013, 08:51:53 AM
Quote from: Longdan on April 05, 2013, 10:58:52 PM
But they were capitalists.
Au contraire. Socialism is the forced removal of wealth from one group to another. Capitalism is self-directed. Now if the monks from Lindisfarne had sailed into the Viking villages and given them all their loot in exchange for milk - that would be capitalism.
The vast majority of wealth flowing into scandinavia during the viking age was via trade.
Ofcourse if you didnt want to trade we just took it anyways, but thats utterly besides the point and shame on you for even making me mention it
You guys have been sitting quietly over there for a long time. When are you coming out again?
We now have mega legions of D+D trained nerds to fight for our lands.
Quote from: Longdan on April 06, 2013, 01:13:40 PM
You guys have been sitting quietly over there for a long time. When are you coming out again?
We now have mega legions of D+D trained nerds to fight for our lands.
We're gonna kickass in World War Nerf.
^Unless LB is in charge.
Why? He is possessed of secret and arcane knowledge.
Ask him about his Nerf sword injury. Horrific.
Also, he worships Aquaman. Best to keep that in mind as well.
Of course there's that...more horrific.
You know the way you guys carry on with your Aquaman fetish, ...well it makes me curious.
Maybe I should begin to look more seriously at Aquaman, even though I have "known" he was the lamest
since I was a kid. Sometimes what we "know" just ain't true. I shall now study Aquaman even though I still like girls.
And machinery. And guns. And beer. Which reminds me......
^Through LB into that mix too.
Quote from: Gusington on April 06, 2013, 07:15:20 PM
Ask him about his Nerf sword injury. Horrific.
I used to be an adventurer like you - until I took a nerf sword to the heel.
Quote from: Longdan on April 07, 2013, 11:49:59 AM
You know the way you guys carry on with your Aquaman fetish, ...well it makes me curious.
Maybe I should begin to look more seriously at Aquaman, even though I have "known" he was the lamest
since I was a kid. Sometimes what we "know" just ain't true. I shall now study Aquaman even though I still like girls.
And machinery. And guns. And beer. Which reminds me......
Aquaman and the New 52. You won't be sorry.
Quote from: Gusington on April 05, 2013, 07:53:26 AM
Hmm...makes me wonder who, if anyone, is planning on replacing them. Are the germans fielding more of their own now? Are the Russians eyeing everything with a greedy Cold War mentality? Are the French looking across the border and.quietly whispering "finally...no we can plan our revenge, again."
Russia has oil and gas to use as tools of influence over the EU, who needs tanks when you can freeze your enemy?
Quote from: Windigo on April 09, 2013, 10:47:41 AM
Quote from: Gusington on April 05, 2013, 07:53:26 AM
Hmm...makes me wonder who, if anyone, is planning on replacing them. Are the germans fielding more of their own now? Are the Russians eyeing everything with a greedy Cold War mentality? Are the French looking across the border and.quietly whispering "finally...no we can plan our revenge, again."
Russia has oil and gas to use as tools of influence over the EU, who needs tanks when you can freeze your enemy?
+1
Although...if the Ruskies get too stingy with that fuel the Germans might just decide they need some tanks to roll into those gas fields and loosen the flow. It's been a good long time since they gave that strategy a try. Who knows if they might do it again?
I suspect it would be a little harder for them to get through Poland this time.
Oh yeah? Why? If the Germans were to go crazy then let them go really crazy. Everything 1939 is new again.
well Polish Lepoard 2s might make that proposition more difficult now.
I think the Heer is pretty small these days. Lots of downsizing after reunification. And I imagine the Poles would make a better show of it now than they did in '39. Didn't they have to do a lot of modernizing to gain NATO membership?
Quote from: LongBlade on April 09, 2013, 12:18:35 PM
Quote from: Windigo on April 09, 2013, 10:47:41 AM
Quote from: Gusington on April 05, 2013, 07:53:26 AM
Hmm...makes me wonder who, if anyone, is planning on replacing them. Are the germans fielding more of their own now? Are the Russians eyeing everything with a greedy Cold War mentality? Are the French looking across the border and.quietly whispering "finally...no we can plan our revenge, again."
Russia has oil and gas to use as tools of influence over the EU, who needs tanks when you can freeze your enemy?
+1
Although...if the Ruskies get too stingy with that fuel the Germans might just decide they need some tanks to roll into those gas fields and loosen the flow. It's been a good long time since they gave that strategy a try. Who knows if they might do it again?
To think you would even suggest such a thing! It is a horrible slur on all Germans.
Quote from: Gusington on April 09, 2013, 01:28:06 PM
Oh yeah? Why? If the Germans were to go crazy then let them go really crazy. Everything 1939 is new again.
If the Ruskies decide to clamp down on gas distribution the Poles might just want in on some 1939 action themselves. It'll be a whole new Molotov-Ribbentrop deal but this time it'll be dividing the spoils of Russia's gas fields between Poland and Germany.
that would be a fun wargame.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on April 09, 2013, 07:24:35 PM
that would be a fun wargame.
I look forward to your review ;)
^HA
Quote from: LongBlade on April 06, 2013, 08:51:53 AM
Quote from: Longdan on April 05, 2013, 10:58:52 PM
But they were capitalists.
Au contraire. Socialism is the forced removal of wealth from one group to another. Capitalism is self-directed. Now if the monks from Lindisfarne had sailed into the Viking villages and given them all their loot in exchange for milk - that would be capitalism.
Some of my ancestors were part of Clan MacFarlane, which had it's home around the villages of Arrochar and Tarbet on the west coast of Scotland. During raids, the Vikings would sail up the loch to Arrochar. The MacFarlanes, realizing that even if they could take the ships crews, fighting would get some of themselves killed and maybe the village looted. So they came up with an alternative approach. For a share of the loot from the raids further inland, they would guard the Viking ships from the surrounding clans, giving the Vikings a secure base of operations. Arrochar and Tarbet were never raided, as far as I know.
That's capitalism.
Descending from Western Scots there is a mighty probability that some of your ancestors were those very same Vikings.
Must have been hard for Scots women to bear Viking babies with those horny Viking hats.
Quote from: LongBlade on April 09, 2013, 04:50:04 PM
If the Ruskies decide to clamp down on gas distribution the Poles might just want in on some 1939 action themselves. It'll be a whole new Molotov-Ribbentrop deal but this time it'll be dividing the spoils of Russia's gas fields between Poland and Germany.
This is actually what I was thinking.
Were the Germans to invade again, I can totally see Poland going, "Cool! Mind if I join you?"...
I worked with a Polish girl from Cracow for some years. We were talking about stuff one night shift. Out of the blue she just volunteered:
"Sometimes I stay awake at night wondering who I hate more. The Russians or the Germans." Read Bloodlands by Timothy Snyder,
its a currently popular modern history. The death and destruction visited upon the Poles by both neighbours is utterly astonishing.
It is really amazing there are any Poles left. The Germans basically exterminated the Polish Jewish population and killed about the same
number of other Poles.
If the Ruskies decide to turn off the heat in Poland I'm pretty sure I know who'll become the flavor of the month.
Quote from: mirth on April 09, 2013, 07:35:37 PM
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on April 09, 2013, 07:24:35 PM
that would be a fun wargame.
I look forward to your review ;)
oooohhhhhhhh! +2
Tactical Nuclear Missile Launch detected.
Anal Detonation Imminent
Quote from: LongBlade on April 10, 2013, 11:16:09 AM
If the Ruskies decide to turn off the heat in Poland I'm pretty sure I know who'll become the flavor of the month.
(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5128577024/h76E3BB7D/)
WTF? flavour?
Quote from: Windigo on April 10, 2013, 03:44:27 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on April 10, 2013, 11:16:09 AM
If the Ruskies decide to turn off the heat in Poland I'm pretty sure I know who'll become the flavor of the month.
(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5128577024/h76E3BB7D/)
WTF? flavour?
:)
Dan was opining about how he thought the Poles hated both the Germans and the Ruskies about equally.
My remark was that if the Ruskies shut off the gas to Europe, the Poles would probably not have any difficulty choosing as their ally if things got kinetic.
Quote from: Longdan on April 09, 2013, 11:57:44 PM
Descending from Western Scots there is a mighty probability that some of your ancestors were those very same Vikings.
Yes, little doubt of that. Somerled of The Isles gets credit for both driving the Vikings out and for being more or less the founder of a Norse kingdom that remained independent from the mainland Scottish kingdom for centuries.
Now, if we'd just had some of those tanks that are being withdrawn from Germany...
</desperate attempt to grasp for staying on-topic>
Quote from: panzerde on April 10, 2013, 08:38:51 PM
Quote from: Longdan on April 09, 2013, 11:57:44 PM
Descending from Western Scots there is a mighty probability that some of your ancestors were those very same Vikings.
Yes, little doubt of that. Somerled of The Isles gets credit for both driving the Vikings out and for being more or less the founder of a Norse kingdom that remained independent from the mainland Scottish kingdom for centuries.
Now, if we'd just had some of those tanks that are being withdrawn from Germany...
</desperate attempt to grasp for staying on-topic>
The western Isles have a rich and fascinating history full of ups and downs. Mostly downs.