Author Topic: "This is the Chinese navy ... You go!"  (Read 72867 times)

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Offline Gusington

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Re: "This is the Chinese navy ... You go!"
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2015, 08:28:39 AM »
^But we won't as we have the Appeaser in Chief in office. What we 'should' do doesn't matter to the Appeaser in Chief. It's Peace in Our Time[tm].
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Offline Steelgrave

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Re: "This is the Chinese navy ... You go!"
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2015, 09:35:41 AM »
I agree, Gus. I was talking about what should be done, not what I expect we will do   :P

Offline Mr. Bigglesworth

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Re: "This is the Chinese navy ... You go!"
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2015, 11:49:48 AM »
They have a billion people and they have decided they will go to the mat for those resources. Philosophically I agree with Steelgrave. In the real world, not utopia, I think we have to come to an understanding that there will be 6 big power blocks dominated by the big country. USA, USSR, EU, China, Brazil, India. If their part of the world goes to shit, that is their problem. It may seem like in the short term, a great power for freedom can police the world, but as the bills roll in, in lives and resources, overreach will doom us first.

I think Rome kept doing what had given it success, not understanding that it was leading to ruin. That is expansion. People seem to use a hunch that bigger is better. More. A lot of the world's best run countries are small.

Japan is going to have to re militarize to keep some balance of power. If they dont they will be in significant threat long term. You have to think of where China will be in 50-100 years. Any attemt to go limited hot will loose Russia into the EU at the same time.
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Offline OJsDad

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Re: "This is the Chinese navy ... You go!"
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2015, 12:21:32 PM »
China, Russia, and India to some extent, seem to be trying to make up for their bad decisions over the centuries.  Think of where China could be today if they hadn't turn isolationists.  What if Russia had given up serfdom and fully embraced western ideas.  Now these countries seem to be willing to embrace nationalism and bully or outright steal what they want.  While in the west our leaders are more interested in winning Noble Peace prizes for not doing anything and making peoples lives worse.  All the while they line their pockets.
'Here at NASA we all pee the same color.'  Al Harrison from the movie Hidden Figures.

Offline GDS_Starfury

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Re: "This is the Chinese navy ... You go!"
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2015, 01:21:49 PM »
Among the problems is that neither China or Russia lost WW2.
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Offline Steelgrave

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Re: "This is the Chinese navy ... You go!"
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2015, 01:30:21 PM »
To be clear, I'm not suggesting outright aggression with the Chinese, I'm simply suggesting we encourage and back the other affected Pacific nations in building their own islands in the same waters. All while the U.S. and Japan keep a very visible naval and air presence nearby. The Chinese are already claiming sovereignty and that position will only become solidified once the bases are fully operational (spoken in my best Emperor Palpatine voice). This will piss off the Chinese, no doubt, but without a doubt those bases will be defended in the future and we will be looking at civilian aircraft or even minor nation naval units being shot at by the Chinese for approaching their "territory". If they don't build them now (since the Chinese can't be forced to dismantle theirs) they are in effect ceding those waters to the Chinese, who will defend them.

Offline Gusington

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Re: "This is the Chinese navy ... You go!"
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2015, 01:31:48 PM »
^But China was raped repeatedly and will not forget it during WWII. And before WWII was no picnic for China either, at the hands of the West. They're not forgetting that either.
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Offline Steelgrave

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Re: "This is the Chinese navy ... You go!"
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2015, 01:36:56 PM »
So China gets a pass on international law and boundaries because of WWII, Gus? They are not just pushing Japan, they are also pushing South Korea and the Phillipines, our allies. This is a naked grab for territory with the goal of replacing America as the dominant naval and economic power in the Pacific. Hell, even if we weren't allies with those nations, China is still violating international law. Maybe we should give Mexico the Gulf of Mexico because, after all, it's not named the Gulf of America. Mexico would have about the same basis for a claim as the Chinese do,  plus can argue they've been victimized by the U.S. in the past.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2015, 01:39:47 PM by Steelgrave »

Offline GDS_Starfury

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Re: "This is the Chinese navy ... You go!"
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2015, 02:14:12 PM »
Unfortunately I cant boycott chinese food for religious reasons.
Toonces - Don't ask me, I just close my eyes and take it.

Gus - I use sweatpants with flannel shorts to soak up my crotch sweat.

Banzai Cat - There is no "partial credit" in grammar. Like anal sex. It's either in, or it's not.

Mirth - We learned long ago that they key isn't to outrun Star, it's to outrun Gus.

Martok - I don't know if it's possible to have an "anti-boner"...but I now have one.

Gus - Celery is vile and has no reason to exist. Like underwear on Star.


Offline Steelgrave

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Re: "This is the Chinese navy ... You go!"
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2015, 02:21:29 PM »
Unfortunately I cant boycott chinese food for religious reasons.

I can dig it   ;D

Offline Gusington

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Re: "This is the Chinese navy ... You go!"
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2015, 04:34:15 PM »
I'm saying to just look at it from the Chinese perspective for a second. Where was international law and boundaries while China was being enslaved? For 150+ years they have been subjugated. Now they're not and they're enjoying it.

And if we in the West can't get our act together to counter them...then we can't bitch at them.

And screw Mexico...it's a crime ridden toilet.
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Offline Steelgrave

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Re: "This is the Chinese navy ... You go!"
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2015, 07:22:26 PM »
China thinks longer term than most nations. I get what you're saying. My point is the rest of the world shouldn't roll over for them because they've been butthurt at various times in their history. I think we're arguing apples and oranges here, Gus. Frankly, whatever China's history, their target is the USA and our allies. Our longstanding support of Taiwan has rubbed them raw for decades. Our domination of the Pacific, both militarily and economically, has made them envious. I can understand all of those viewpoints but it doesn't change a simple fact:

China is our competitor and potentially our enemy. They are building up their military with an eye towards bullying their neighbors and seizing whatever they want. Hell, Germany had some legitimate complaints before they marched their armies into Austria and neighboring countries. When you're dealing with an aggressor nation, you deal with their actions. China's way of "negotiating" is to seize what they want or steal it from us. Under no scenario should that be ignored because China has old grievances.

Offline Mr. Bigglesworth

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Re: "This is the Chinese navy ... You go!"
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2015, 07:44:51 PM »
China thinks longer term than most nations. I get what you're saying. My point is the rest of the world shouldn't roll over for them because they've been butthurt at various times in their history. I think we're arguing apples and oranges here, Gus. Frankly, whatever China's history, their target is the USA and our allies. Our longstanding support of Taiwan has rubbed them raw for decades. Our domination of the Pacific, both militarily and economically, has made them envious. I can understand all of those viewpoints but it doesn't change a simple fact:

China is our competitor and potentially our enemy. They are building up their military with an eye towards bullying their neighbors and seizing whatever they want. Hell, Germany had some legitimate complaints before they marched their armies into Austria and neighboring countries. When you're dealing with an aggressor nation, you deal with their actions. China's way of "negotiating" is to seize what they want or steal it from us. Under no scenario should that be ignored because China has old grievances.

That is a fair assesment. You still have to plan out the decision tree of consequences. No western country is going to start bombing their many 1,000,000+ civilian cities over reefs. You also have to consider that unlike Russia, they tend to avoid getting into actual shooting wars. Typicaly the other side walks away before it gets to that point. Factor in their significant manufacturing capacity sudenly being turned on to weapons like only a big commie state can do. They have already displayed their willingness to take out satelites.

So what does the sequence go like? Probably this is a move to deny USN approach to defend Taiwan as well as a resource grab. If they make a strong defense perimiter south, USN is forced down a deep sea funnel to aid Taiwan in the future. So they are going to loose missiles to make this happen. There will be lots of ramming with suicide planes or boats first, but it will come to a real fight. They have just been taking copious notes on how NATO got bloodied by piss ant countries in the middle east. Their understanding of guerilla war goes back to Mao. You cant toast their civilians, you cant invade China. What exactly do you think the US could do that would be worth it over tiny islands?

The real test will be if they make a move on Taiwan. They wont do that until far more is in place.
"Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more; "
- Shakespeare's Henry V, Act III, 1598

Offline Steelgrave

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Re: "This is the Chinese navy ... You go!"
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2015, 08:01:16 PM »
What exactly do you think the US could do that would be worth it over tiny islands?

The real test will be if they make a move on Taiwan. They wont do that until far more is in place.

I already said what I think we should do. I think we should encourage and support our allies doing exactly the same thing that China is doing, all while refusing to acknowledge any change in Chinese airspace or waters. The PI is already doing this by occupying a freighter moored on a small island or sandbar, which is about all they can afford. Japan should move into waters close by current Chinese construction and start building. That puts the ball back in China's court....do they do more than threaten and bluster? With the American fleet standing behind Japan, I rather doubt it.

I've never suggested going to war with China. That may happen one day, but today is not that day. By the same token, we can't allow China to get what they want by imminent domain of the sea. It's a helluva more than a few tiny islands. It's expanding their sovereignity into international waters and even into coastal areas belonging to other nations. It's also seizing natural resources which can be used to further China's military buildup. Thirdly, it's a gambit to make America back down and show our Pacific allies there is a new boss in town and they can't depend on the US. China has a lot to gain by the world's inaction. If they can get what they want without a shot being fired, it will only embolden them years down the road when the balance of power may have shifted even more. Like when they want to make a move on Taiwan.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2015, 08:05:30 PM by Steelgrave »

Offline Mr. Bigglesworth

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Re: "This is the Chinese navy ... You go!"
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2015, 08:31:49 PM »
I fully agree with your moral position. I also think they would not have started this building without great certanity that nobody will step in. The scarborough shoal by the Phillipines is probably the best one for group assistance. With the strong US ties to the Phillipines, it is most likely the US would get involved in their defense. Japan moving on their contested island probably makes sense. I cant see Japan in the south CHina sea. Given the coutries in the region are not interested in stopping the sea take at Scarborough, I dont see anything happening. Those countries will avoid. If they cant win, it is better for them to move on than get beaten down. USN is another matter, it can trash the whole Chinese military. Still, until the Chinese start shooting, nothing is going to happen.

So they will build their perimiter, then they will move on Taiwan. Maybe 20-50 years out. By then ... scratch that, this perimiter is a significant problem in future weapons tech. Right now it is rubbish.

I would say sell Antiship systems to the Phillipines. Mines to Vietnam.
"Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more; "
- Shakespeare's Henry V, Act III, 1598