Women Dropped From USMC Infantry Course

besilarius · October 19, 2012, 07:33:32 PM

You know that all Israeli women in the military are trained for combat, but not assigned to front line units?
Back around 1973, was at some kind of reception in Athens, Greece, and ran into the Israeli military attache from the embassy.
I knew that women had fought in the first war that the Israelis fought in 48. Asked him how that had worked out, and if it was a good expereince, why the women weren't in front line units.
His answer was two problems.
In the war of Independence, many of the fighters were former partisans who learned their trade fighting the SS and Einsatzkommando in Russia. They were a hard bitten lot, but some of the women were just vicious towards prisoners. They scared their own comrades.
Also, the Israeli army found that units that included women soldiers had heavier casualties.
Not because the women were bad, or fought poorly, but because the male soldiers took a lot of unnecessary risks to keep the women from getting hurt.
This may have been a cultural thing, or maybe just a temporary issue based on the emerging nation of Israel.
However, once the decision was made, the politicians made the military stick to it.

Mr. Bigglesworth · October 19, 2012, 07:34:55 PM

In many cultures carrying loads is mostly done by women. Their legs can be quite strong.

Why do infantry have to carry 80lbs? I am ignorant of what goes in infantry packs.
Ammo, food, water, armour, weapon, what else?

Mr. Bigglesworth · October 19, 2012, 07:39:43 PM

What if women infantry carry stuff for the males to fight with less crap on their backs? ;)

Jarhead0331 · October 19, 2012, 07:53:09 PM

Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on October 19, 2012, 07:39:43 PM
What if women infantry carry stuff for the males to fight with less crap on their backs? ;)

Now you're talking. Lift the ban!

Airborne Rifles · October 19, 2012, 08:36:28 PM

Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on October 19, 2012, 07:34:55 PM
In many cultures carrying loads is mostly done by women. Their legs can be quite strong.

Why do infantry have to carry 80lbs? I am ignorant of what goes in infantry packs.
Ammo, food, water, armour, weapon, what else?

40lbs of body armor, 7lbs for every 100 rounds of ammo (210 round basic load), 7-15 lb weapon, aid kit, one day of MREs, water, specialty weapons that every platoon carries like AT4's or LAWs, mortar rounds, grenades, radios, NVGs, radio batteries, batteries for NVGs, lasers and optics, tripods for gun teams, mine detectors, search kits, detainee kits, extra aid kits, litters. And that's just for a one-day patrol. Throw in a rucksack for multi-day missions and the packing list can go up to 100-120lbs. Ounces add up to pounds and infantry is all about carrying things long distances.

My wife was a soldier. She led paratroopers in combat and she is one of maybe three women I have met who can (and did) really hack what infantrymen do (all 5'4" of her). Granted, in today's combat most soldiers wont stray more than 100m from their vehicles so the point is usually moot, but that one time when the mission is to hike up an 11,000ft mountain with 120lbs of gear then you need to have confidence that everyone in your unit can do it. Even in a volunteer military like ours we have to deal in averages and play to the lowest common denominator. In our American culture the women do not carry the heavy loads, so until they do (and let's work towards that goal ;)) I'd have to say adding females to infantry units brigs down their effectivenss overall.

bayonetbrant · October 19, 2012, 09:17:49 PM

Quote from: Airborne Rifles on October 19, 2012, 08:36:28 PMIn our American culture the women do not carry the heavy loads

I have a friend who's 8 months pregnant. I dare you to say that line to her face ;D

Airborne Rifles · October 19, 2012, 10:38:05 PM

Well, my wife just gave birth on Monday...maybe I'll try saying to her face first? ;D

Electric_Strawberry · October 19, 2012, 11:06:18 PM

As far as I'm concerned, the one factor which should preclude a woman from serving in the infantry is lack of upper body strength. The infantryman has to carry everything he needs, and/or thinks he'll need, on his back. In my day, even though we were all issued flak jackets, nobody wore them since they wouldn't stop much of anything. So, we didn't have to worry about the weight of body armour. It's all the other stuff that adds up.

When we would go out, we usually caaried three to five days worth of rations. Now, these were C-rations, not MRE's. C rats were cans...and cans meant bulk and weight. But, the limiting factor was water. Water is very heavy and so we would be resupplied every 3-5 days...five days in the rainy season when we were expected to catch our own additional water from the rain. For my M-16, I carried about 20 magazines (20 round clips...we didn't have banana clips), four bandoliers of M-16 ammo tied around my waist and another 8-10 bandoliers in my rucksack. Everybody carried at least a couple hundred rounds for the M-60's. In addition everyone carried frags, smoke grenades, claymores, additional M-79 rounds, shelter half, poncho liner...and...of course...an entrenching tool. When you stop for the night, you gotta dig a hole. Oh...I almost forgot the steel pot. Somehow, that thing got heavier as the day went along. I also carried one of our starlight scopes. That thing weighed about 5-7 pounds all by itself.

We would go out for 10-20 days at a time. The longest we were out was over 35 days. I can't imagine a woman being able to physically keep up with that. And that's just walking around. What happens when you have contact and there are caualties...AND...the closest LZ is a kiick away? I wouldn't want to have to rely on a woman to carry me there.

To sum it up, I have no problem with women serving in the military. There are even jobs where they are superior to men. But, they really don't belong in the infantry.

bob48 · October 20, 2012, 06:15:26 AM

Quote from: Airborne Rifles on October 19, 2012, 10:38:05 PM
Well, my wife just gave birth on Monday...maybe I'll try saying to her face first? ;D

Congratulations :)

Staggerwing · October 20, 2012, 07:26:45 AM

Quote from: bob48 on October 20, 2012, 06:15:26 AM
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on October 19, 2012, 10:38:05 PM
Well, my wife just gave birth on Monday...maybe I'll try saying to her face first? ;D

Congratulations :)

Indeed! Congrats on the new AR-Mini!

LongBlade · October 20, 2012, 07:55:56 AM

Quote from: bob48 on October 20, 2012, 06:15:26 AM
Quote from: Airborne Rifles on October 19, 2012, 10:38:05 PM
Well, my wife just gave birth on Monday...maybe I'll try saying to her face first? ;D

Congratulations :)

+1

Arctic Blast · October 21, 2012, 12:32:23 AM

Quote from: Airborne Rifles on October 19, 2012, 10:38:05 PM
Well, my wife just gave birth on Monday...maybe I'll try saying to her face first? ;D

Congrats!

And in case you do decide to say that to her, it's been nice knowing you. :D

Mr. Bigglesworth · October 21, 2012, 01:45:02 AM

Quote from: Electric_Strawberry on October 19, 2012, 11:06:18 PM
As far as I'm concerned, the one factor which should preclude a woman from serving in the infantry is lack of upper body strength. The infantryman has to carry everything he needs, and/or thinks he'll need, on his back. In my day, even though we were all issued flak jackets, nobody wore them since they wouldn't stop much of anything. So, we didn't have to worry about the weight of body armour. It's all the other stuff that adds up.

When we would go out, we usually caaried three to five days worth of rations. Now, these were C-rations, not MRE's. C rats were cans...and cans meant bulk and weight. But, the limiting factor was water. Water is very heavy and so we would be resupplied every 3-5 days...five days in the rainy season when we were expected to catch our own additional water from the rain. For my M-16, I carried about 20 magazines (20 round clips...we didn't have banana clips), four bandoliers of M-16 ammo tied around my waist and another 8-10 bandoliers in my rucksack. Everybody carried at least a couple hundred rounds for the M-60's. In addition everyone carried frags, smoke grenades, claymores, additional M-79 rounds, shelter half, poncho liner...and...of course...an entrenching tool. When you stop for the night, you gotta dig a hole. Oh...I almost forgot the steel pot. Somehow, that thing got heavier as the day went along. I also carried one of our starlight scopes. That thing weighed about 5-7 pounds all by itself.

We would go out for 10-20 days at a time. The longest we were out was over 35 days. I can't imagine a woman being able to physically keep up with that. And that's just walking around. What happens when you have contact and there are caualties...AND...the closest LZ is a kiick away? I wouldn't want to have to rely on a woman to carry me there.

To sum it up, I have no problem with women serving in the military. There are even jobs where they are superior to men. But, they really don't belong in the infantry.

That is a lot of stuff.

The good old days of having a horse eh? So why did cavalry go out of style when they could be used for infantry support? A horse can handle some tough terrain. Why spend a fortune developing a robotic mule when there are horses?

Airborne Rifles · October 21, 2012, 08:58:55 AM

The Army is using mules (the old-fashioned flesh and blood kind) to carry loads in Afghanistan these days.

Airborne Rifles · October 21, 2012, 10:34:47 AM

And thanks all for the congratulations. Upon reflection I decided that discretion is the better part of valor and did not tell my wife that the doesn't carry much weight :D.

In all seriousness though, I've watched here deliver two babies now with no drugs whatsoever, so I don't hold many misconceptions about what she and other women can do. My hat's off to them.