Author Topic: "Arab Spring" in Turkey? Or much ado about nothing?  (Read 6175 times)

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Offline Gusington

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Re: "Arab Spring" in Turkey? Or much ado about nothing?
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2013, 06:08:57 PM »
I tried and can't find one. Watch the episode, it's worth it for more than just the hot doctor woman.
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Offline Rex Brynen

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Re: "Arab Spring" in Turkey? Or much ado about nothing?
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2013, 06:53:05 PM »
On the Bourdain show--I thought it was great. I spent some time in Libya during the revolution, and loved the place.

As to the Turkey topic, the protests are undoubtedly fuelled by a widespread feeling that the AKP behaves in a majoritarian fashion, has eroded some public freedoms (notably the press), and is taking measures to undermine Turkey's secularism. Police brutality against the protests have only made things worse. The protesters--disproportionately but not entirely middle class or more secular--thus feel they are defending democratic rights.

Conversely, the AKP is by far the most popular party in the country, and would still probably win elections if they were held tomorrow (in the last elections, it had a 24% lead over the next largest party). The AKP has played a key role in the emergence of Turkish democracy. Erdogan feels that the demonstrators, having repeatedly lost free and fair elections, are trying to subvert democratic politics through street protests.

Both sides are right, in a way. The AKP is simultaneously the democratic winner of the last elections and the party with most support, and has shown some intolerant twinges and authoritarian streaks—although it also deserves credit for having advanced Turkish democratization in key respects.

Unfortunately, the current protests are having a largely polarizing effect, and with a few exceptions no one is really trying to build ground for middle-ground dialogue. Moreover, if the opposition can't move beyond street protest to a coordinated electoral challenge to the AKP, the AKP will win the next elections too. The Turkish media is awful. Even CNN Turkey has been showing animal documentaries rather than covering the protests.

As for Turkey's secularism, it was never as secular as many believe: in many ways Sunni Islam has always been a state religion, and the government actually regulates religious instruction. Then again, the West is often less secular than folks believe: the UK also has a state religion, while in the US (in contrast to many Western countries) the religious beliefs of candidates actually seem to be a factor in electoral behaviour.

Offline LongBlade

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Re: "Arab Spring" in Turkey? Or much ado about nothing?
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2013, 07:00:29 PM »
Thanks, Rex. Good insights.

Offline GDS_Starfury

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Re: "Arab Spring" in Turkey? Or much ado about nothing?
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2013, 08:48:49 PM »
Did anyone see Anthony Bourdain's "Parts Unknown" in Libya?

I didn't catch it all, but it did make me feel a bit better about the state of affairs in Libya.  In that it didn't seem like Libya was all about radical Islam after the revolution.

I did and for the most part I agree.
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Offline GDS_Starfury

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Re: "Arab Spring" in Turkey? Or much ado about nothing?
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2013, 08:51:54 PM »
That's the big reason why it was included in NATO. Well, that, and our listening stations were so much closer to the USSR.

well... that and IRBM bases and control of the only way for the Black Sea fleet to get into the Med and hummus.
Toonces - Don't ask me, I just close my eyes and take it.

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Banzai Cat - There is no "partial credit" in grammar. Like anal sex. It's either in, or it's not.

Mirth - We learned long ago that they key isn't to outrun Star, it's to outrun Gus.

Martok - I don't know if it's possible to have an "anti-boner"...but I now have one.

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Offline Mr. Bigglesworth

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Re: "Arab Spring" in Turkey? Or much ado about nothing?
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2013, 12:10:25 AM »
On the Bourdain show--I thought it was great. I spent some time in Libya during the revolution, and loved the place.

As to the Turkey topic, the protests are undoubtedly fuelled by a widespread feeling that the AKP behaves in a majoritarian fashion, has eroded some public freedoms (notably the press), and is taking measures to undermine Turkey's secularism. Police brutality against the protests have only made things worse. The protesters--disproportionately but not entirely middle class or more secular--thus feel they are defending democratic rights.

Conversely, the AKP is by far the most popular party in the country, and would still probably win elections if they were held tomorrow (in the last elections, it had a 24% lead over the next largest party). The AKP has played a key role in the emergence of Turkish democracy. Erdogan feels that the demonstrators, having repeatedly lost free and fair elections, are trying to subvert democratic politics through street protests.

Both sides are right, in a way. The AKP is simultaneously the democratic winner of the last elections and the party with most support, and has shown some intolerant twinges and authoritarian streaks—although it also deserves credit for having advanced Turkish democratization in key respects.

Unfortunately, the current protests are having a largely polarizing effect, and with a few exceptions no one is really trying to build ground for middle-ground dialogue. Moreover, if the opposition can't move beyond street protest to a coordinated electoral challenge to the AKP, the AKP will win the next elections too. The Turkish media is awful. Even CNN Turkey has been showing animal documentaries rather than covering the protests.

As for Turkey's secularism, it was never as secular as many believe: in many ways Sunni Islam has always been a state religion, and the government actually regulates religious instruction. Then again, the West is often less secular than folks believe: the UK also has a state religion, while in the US (in contrast to many Western countries) the religious beliefs of candidates actually seem to be a factor in electoral behaviour.

Just to be clear on what I think I am reading, you are saying it's ok for them to move further towards hard line Islam as long as it was voted in by the people? Having the elections trumps whatever the outcome is?
"Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more; "
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Offline GDS_Starfury

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Re: "Arab Spring" in Turkey? Or much ado about nothing?
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2013, 12:30:31 AM »
in a radical departure from my usual 'fuck them' attitude...
if its truly what their people want in an open election thats fine.
however, dont export your stupidity, dont kill people or jail people that dont agree and if people want to leave that culture let them.
the reality is that none of that will happen so screw em.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 08:28:52 AM by GDS_Starfury »
Toonces - Don't ask me, I just close my eyes and take it.

Gus - I use sweatpants with flannel shorts to soak up my crotch sweat.

Banzai Cat - There is no "partial credit" in grammar. Like anal sex. It's either in, or it's not.

Mirth - We learned long ago that they key isn't to outrun Star, it's to outrun Gus.

Martok - I don't know if it's possible to have an "anti-boner"...but I now have one.

Gus - Celery is vile and has no reason to exist. Like underwear on Star.


Offline Keunert

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Re: "Arab Spring" in Turkey? Or much ado about nothing?
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2013, 08:11:55 AM »
Mr. Bigglesworth: the AKP is fighting the turkish military influence over the governement and i read that they were a lot more effective in this regard than the parties before them. i do get the notion that you are feeling more comfortable with a military dictatorship than an elected conservatice / ilsamistic party?

 
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Offline GDS_Starfury

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Re: "Arab Spring" in Turkey? Or much ado about nothing?
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2013, 08:29:51 AM »
I am.
Toonces - Don't ask me, I just close my eyes and take it.

Gus - I use sweatpants with flannel shorts to soak up my crotch sweat.

Banzai Cat - There is no "partial credit" in grammar. Like anal sex. It's either in, or it's not.

Mirth - We learned long ago that they key isn't to outrun Star, it's to outrun Gus.

Martok - I don't know if it's possible to have an "anti-boner"...but I now have one.

Gus - Celery is vile and has no reason to exist. Like underwear on Star.


Offline LongBlade

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Re: "Arab Spring" in Turkey? Or much ado about nothing?
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2013, 08:36:04 AM »
Mr. Bigglesworth: the AKP is fighting the turkish military influence over the governement and i read that they were a lot more effective in this regard than the parties before them. i do get the notion that you are feeling more comfortable with a military dictatorship than an elected conservatice / ilsamistic party?

You've basically nailed one tenant of the political philosophy of Realpolitik.

As much as we'd like to see democracy flourish all over the world, when it might produce some kind of rabid strain of islmofacism then, yes, I'd rather see a military dictatorship friendly to us keeping the radicals down.

YMMV

Offline Mr. Bigglesworth

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Re: "Arab Spring" in Turkey? Or much ado about nothing?
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2013, 08:45:10 AM »
Mr. Bigglesworth: the AKP is fighting the turkish military influence over the governement and i read that they were a lot more effective in this regard than the parties before them. i do get the notion that you are feeling more comfortable with a military dictatorship than an elected conservatice / ilsamistic party?

My knowledge of Turkey does not go much further than they have a reputation for making strong coffee. One tidbit I noticed the other day on the wiki page was they used to have a more diverse religious spectrum. They are now almost 100% Islamic.

Given that, it is no surprise that they might want to move to a religious state. With Sharia law. To me that is not compatible with remaining in NATO or the EU. Hitler was an elected politician. An election is no guarantee of things not going to hell.

People's lives need to move away from revolving around religeon. Especially one that seems to be open to violent interpretation. Christianity used to be the same. At some point, maybe with the King James version of the Bible or whatever the new versions are, something happened that moved people's interpretation away from violent conquest of territory. Somehow the same process is needed over there.
"Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more; "
- Shakespeare's Henry V, Act III, 1598

Offline Keunert

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Re: "Arab Spring" in Turkey? Or much ado about nothing?
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2013, 09:15:22 AM »
history teaches that western supported dictatorship has a short lifespan and backfires badly sometimes.

Shah of Persia: troubles ever since
Pinochet in Chile: not much trouble but maybe supported votes for Chavez and the like in other SA countries.
Bush Jr: 8 years of socialist islamic rule in the western heart.
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Offline GDS_Starfury

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Re: "Arab Spring" in Turkey? Or much ado about nothing?
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2013, 09:15:56 AM »
IMHO Christianity's violence burned itself out when its believers got tired of fighting and dying over the course of hundreds of years.  it only took a few crusades, an inquisition here and there, some feudalism and possibly the renaissance to get there.
Toonces - Don't ask me, I just close my eyes and take it.

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Banzai Cat - There is no "partial credit" in grammar. Like anal sex. It's either in, or it's not.

Mirth - We learned long ago that they key isn't to outrun Star, it's to outrun Gus.

Martok - I don't know if it's possible to have an "anti-boner"...but I now have one.

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Offline LongBlade

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Re: "Arab Spring" in Turkey? Or much ado about nothing?
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2013, 09:16:13 AM »
People's lives need to move away from revolving around religeon. Especially one that seems to be open to violent interpretation. Christianity used to be the same. At some point, maybe with the King James version of the Bible or whatever the new versions are, something happened that moved people's interpretation away from violent conquest of territory. Somehow the same process is needed over there.

You should read Fregosi's book Jihad. It covers a lot of this.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/1573922471/?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&condition=used&creative=390957&linkCode=ur2&qid=1370358928&sr=8-1&tag=grogheads-20

Offline Mr. Bigglesworth

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Re: "Arab Spring" in Turkey? Or much ado about nothing?
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2013, 09:23:47 AM »
Sorry, having a book called jihad in my house would be creepy as hell. What is the executive summary?
"Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more; "
- Shakespeare's Henry V, Act III, 1598