Author Topic: "Arab Spring" in Turkey? Or much ado about nothing?  (Read 6177 times)

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Offline LongBlade

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Re: "Arab Spring" in Turkey? Or much ado about nothing?
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2013, 09:42:18 AM »
Sorry, having a book called jihad in my house would be creepy as hell. What is the executive summary?

The executive summary is that, yes, Christians have their violent episodes (and can be equally bloody) but the concept of violent Jihad is woven into the very fabric of Islam. By contrast Christianity's chief tenant is forgiveness.

Islam goes through periods of dormancy where it isn't out conquering, but those periods of dormancy are just that - it's asleep, not gone.

The book isn't creepy - it was prescient. Published in '99 it came out just before 9/11. Well worth the read and can be had for just a few dollars.

Offline Keunert

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Re: "Arab Spring" in Turkey? Or much ado about nothing?
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2013, 11:24:38 AM »
Islam has a long history of tolerating other religions btw. i have no idea when or why it turned sour but at the height of christian brutality Islam was compared to us quite a generous religion. while i do not hope so, it isn't written in stone that christianity adheres to it's lovely principles.

just take out your bible and you will find tons of brutal laws. we just do not live by them at the moment.
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Offline GDS_Starfury

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Re: "Arab Spring" in Turkey? Or much ado about nothing?
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2013, 11:50:46 AM »
i have no idea when or why it turned sour but at the height of christian brutality Islam was compared to us quite a generous religion.

maybe a couple hundred years of European colonialism and then abandonment.
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Offline LongBlade

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Re: "Arab Spring" in Turkey? Or much ado about nothing?
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2013, 11:56:44 AM »
i have no idea when or why it turned sour but at the height of christian brutality Islam was compared to us quite a generous religion.

maybe a couple hundred years of European colonialism and then abandonment.

Read Fregosi's book. There were some tolerant Muslim periods. They were the exception.

Offline TheCommandTent

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Re: "Arab Spring" in Turkey? Or much ado about nothing?
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2013, 05:48:12 PM »
People's lives need to move away from revolving around religeon. Especially one that seems to be open to violent interpretation. Christianity used to be the same. At some point, maybe with the King James version of the Bible or whatever the new versions are, something happened that moved people's interpretation away from violent conquest of territory. Somehow the same process is needed over there.

You should read Fregosi's book Jihad. It covers a lot of this.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/1573922471/?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&condition=used&creative=390957&linkCode=ur2&qid=1370358928&sr=8-1&tag=grogheads-20

Thanks for the heads up on this book I'll have to add it to my list. 
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Offline Rex Brynen

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Re: "Arab Spring" in Turkey? Or much ado about nothing?
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2013, 05:10:25 PM »
We're getting rather off topic here. The Turkish protests really aren't about Islam's alleged intolerances (especially given that 90% of Turks are religious—including many/most of the protesters).

Erdogan is certainly intolerant of criticism, but there's little evidence that it is because of his mild Islamism—rather, it is a personality trait. Both the (AKP) President and the (AKP) Deputy PM have rather different political styles and have apologized for police violence.

While AKP moves against the press deserve condemnation, the party has been more open than the secular parties in addressing the Kurdish issue. The AKP has also been slightly more open than the secular parties in addressing the Armenian genocide (which, of course, was committed under the secularist CUP, not under an Islamist government).

Turkey has a number of restrictions on religious freedom, but these are mainly restrictions put in place by secular governments targeted against minorities or public displays of Muslim piety. The AKP has sought to lessen several of these. 

The AKP has recently placed some restrictions on alcohol, undoubtedly because of its Islamist views. Such religiously-inspired restrictions seem inappropriate to me in a diverse society in which many freely drink, but as a matter of public policy it isn't much difference from, say, religiously-inspired restrictions on same-sex marriage in the US. The religious dimension of public policy in Turkey is no greater than (and in some respects, less than) one would find in Israel.

Interestingly, past opinion polls (2010-11) have shown that a majority of Turks believe that the country has become both more democratic and more secular under the AKP. Today, however, I think Erdogan is proving to be a victim of his own political arrogance, plus a growing weariness with the incumbent, plus a backlash from those who feel excluded from current government policy.

All that, I would suggest, is far from unusual in politics—regardless of religion.

Offline LongBlade

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Re: "Arab Spring" in Turkey? Or much ado about nothing?
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2013, 05:35:58 PM »
We're getting rather off topic here.

^ (That's pretty common around here ;) )

Offline Boggit

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Re: "Arab Spring" in Turkey? Or much ado about nothing?
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2013, 06:15:23 PM »
We're getting rather off topic here. The Turkish protests really aren't about Islam's alleged intolerances (especially given that 90% of Turks are religious—including many/most of the protesters).

Erdogan is certainly intolerant of criticism, but there's little evidence that it is because of his mild Islamism—rather, it is a personality trait. Both the (AKP) President and the (AKP) Deputy PM have rather different political styles and have apologized for police violence.

While AKP moves against the press deserve condemnation, the party has been more open than the secular parties in addressing the Kurdish issue. The AKP has also been slightly more open than the secular parties in addressing the Armenian genocide (which, of course, was committed under the secularist CUP, not under an Islamist government).

Turkey has a number of restrictions on religious freedom, but these are mainly restrictions put in place by secular governments targeted against minorities or public displays of Muslim piety. The AKP has sought to lessen several of these. 

The AKP has recently placed some restrictions on alcohol, undoubtedly because of its Islamist views. Such religiously-inspired restrictions seem inappropriate to me in a diverse society in which many freely drink, but as a matter of public policy it isn't much difference from, say, religiously-inspired restrictions on same-sex marriage in the US. The religious dimension of public policy in Turkey is no greater than (and in some respects, less than) one would find in Israel.

Interestingly, past opinion polls (2010-11) have shown that a majority of Turks believe that the country has become both more democratic and more secular under the AKP. Today, however, I think Erdogan is proving to be a victim of his own political arrogance, plus a growing weariness with the incumbent, plus a backlash from those who feel excluded from current government policy.

All that, I would suggest, is far from unusual in politics—regardless of religion.
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Offline Keunert

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Re: "Arab Spring" in Turkey? Or much ado about nothing?
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2013, 02:34:20 AM »
i read an interview by Die Zeit with a turkish female journalist about the AKP. While she certainly doesn't like the religious view or the women issues of the party she said exactly the same what Rex stated: the AKP overall improved the democratic system of the country. there is more discussion, more political freedom and more independence of the government vs the military than ever before.

i also tend to think that Turkey has become a regional power besides Israel and Iran. and i welcome that. it is a muslim country with a moderate voice, much likely a voice that will be listened to by muslims a lot more than what the west has to say.
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Offline LongBlade

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Re: "Arab Spring" in Turkey? Or much ado about nothing?
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2013, 07:31:45 AM »
i also tend to think that Turkey has become a regional power besides Israel and Iran. and i welcome that. it is a muslim country with a moderate voice, much likely a voice that will be listened to by muslims a lot more than what the west has to say.

That's what most of the rest of the world has been hoping Turkey would become.

It's only when they pretend to run an embargo into Israel that some folks start to worry about the direction they're going in.