War on the Sea coming soon! (from Killerfish Games)

[Gusington]

This thread makes me so happy I could cry, if only I could remember how.

[MengJiao]

  Lae-Salamaua again, this time with Dauntlesses.  More hits, but well within the historical range of not all that many.  The AI does react pretty radically to getting bombed as you can see in the image with the freighter heading for the beach:

[Philippe]

[message deleted because I'm an idiot]

[Philippe]

   Admiral Command Byzantium 1908 carrier battles

Hum... Rebel phone keyboard I guess?  :arr:
Or is there a Da Vinci code-level enigma in there  ^-^

  Long ago CMANO needed a name.  For some reason they picked "Command" (ya-da-Operations-ya-da).  I had suggested Byzantium 1908 , but no, it had to be Command (ya-da-Operations-ya-da).  The obviously were secretly unhappy with CMANO cuz CMANO II is called something else ever-so-slightly different.

  Anyway...when I can't quite remember what a game is actually supposed to be called, but I know it has words along the lines of "command" or "Task Force" or "operations" in it...I substitute the not-all-that-ancient term "Byzantium 1908"...just to keep the iconoclastic (or icondulic?) flame buring.

  That's right...what the hell is incodulism?   Apparently it is a compromise position (like not calling CMANO II CMANO II):

Kissing and respected worship (Greek: «ἀσπασμόν καί τιμητικήν προσκύνησιν»; Latin: «osculum et honorariam adorationem»), incense and candles[5][6][7] for icons was established by the Second Council of Nicaea (Seventh Ecumenical Council) in 787. The Council decided that icons should not be destroyed, as was advocated and practiced by the iconoclasts, nor veritable (full) worshiped or adored [8] (Greek: «ἀληθινήν λατρείαν»; Latin: «veram latriam»), as was practiced by iconolatrists, but they needed to be kissed and they needed respectful worship as symbolic representations of God, angels or saints.[9] Such a position was approved by Pope Adrian I, but due to mis-translations of conciliar acts from Greek into Latin, a controversy arose in the Frankish kingdom, resulting in the creation of Libri Carolini.[10] The last outburst of iconoclasm in the Byzantine Empire was overcome at the Council of Constantinople in 843, which reaffirmed the adoration of icons in an event celebrated as the Feast of Orthodoxy.[11]

The Council of Trent (XIX Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church) in 1563 confirmed iconodulism. But this council, unlike the Council of Nicaea, used a different expression in relation to icons: "honur and veneration" (Latin: honorem et venerationem). Its decree reads: "we kiss, and before which we uncover the head, and prostrate ourselves, we adore Christ; and we venerate the saints, whose similitude they bear" (Latin: «ita ut per imagines, quas osculamur, et coram quibus caput aperimus, et procumbimus, Christum adoremus, et Sanctos quorum illae similitudinem gerunt, veneremur»

Many years ago (when the world was different), I remember visiting a White Russian monastery in New York during holy week and being given a tour of their icon hoard by one of the brothers.  We walked through the door of one of the back rooms and the monk who was walking me around spotted a very small but particularly holy icon at eye level on the far wall. He approached the wall, went into full proskynesis, and kissed his way up the wall until he was face to face with the icon.  I'll never forget the look of dissapointment that crossed his face when he finally saw what he had been worshipping. "Oh, that's Saint Dionysius the Areopagite. Even we admit that he didn't exist".

[MengJiao]

   Admiral Command Byzantium 1908 carrier battles

Hum... Rebel phone keyboard I guess?  :arr:
Or is there a Da Vinci code-level enigma in there  ^-^

  Long ago CMANO needed a name.  For some reason they picked "Command" (ya-da-Operations-ya-da).  I had suggested Byzantium 1908 , but no, it had to be Command (ya-da-Operations-ya-da).  The obviously were secretly unhappy with CMANO cuz CMANO II is called something else ever-so-slightly different.

  Anyway...when I can't quite remember what a game is actually supposed to be called, but I know it has words along the lines of "command" or "Task Force" or "operations" in it...I substitute the not-all-that-ancient term "Byzantium 1908"...just to keep the iconoclastic (or icondulic?) flame buring.

  That's right...what the hell is incodulism?   Apparently it is a compromise position (like not calling CMANO II CMANO II):

Kissing and respected worship (Greek: «ἀσπασμόν καί τιμητικήν προσκύνησιν»; Latin: «osculum et honorariam adorationem»), incense and candles[5][6][7] for icons was established by the Second Council of Nicaea (Seventh Ecumenical Council) in 787. The Council decided that icons should not be destroyed, as was advocated and practiced by the iconoclasts, nor veritable (full) worshiped or adored [8] (Greek: «ἀληθινήν λατρείαν»; Latin: «veram latriam»), as was practiced by iconolatrists, but they needed to be kissed and they needed respectful worship as symbolic representations of God, angels or saints.[9] Such a position was approved by Pope Adrian I, but due to mis-translations of conciliar acts from Greek into Latin, a controversy arose in the Frankish kingdom, resulting in the creation of Libri Carolini.[10] The last outburst of iconoclasm in the Byzantine Empire was overcome at the Council of Constantinople in 843, which reaffirmed the adoration of icons in an event celebrated as the Feast of Orthodoxy.[11]

The Council of Trent (XIX Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church) in 1563 confirmed iconodulism. But this council, unlike the Council of Nicaea, used a different expression in relation to icons: "honur and veneration" (Latin: honorem et venerationem). Its decree reads: "we kiss, and before which we uncover the head, and prostrate ourselves, we adore Christ; and we venerate the saints, whose similitude they bear" (Latin: «ita ut per imagines, quas osculamur, et coram quibus caput aperimus, et procumbimus, Christum adoremus, et Sanctos quorum illae similitudinem gerunt, veneremur»

Many years ago (when the world was different), I remember visiting a White Russian monastery in New York during holy week and being given a tour of their icon horde by one of the brothers.  We walked through the door of one of the back rooms and the monk who was walking me around spotted a very small but particularly holy icon at eye level on the far wall. He approached the wall, went into full proskynesis, and kissed his way up the wall until he was face to face with the icon.  I'll never forget the look of dissapointment that crossed his face when he finally saw what he had been worshipping. "Oh, that's Saint Dionysius the Areopagite. Even we admit that he didn't exist".

  St. Dionysius is kind of a crucial deal even if he didn't exist.  (I think Dionysius the Pseudo-Aeropagite is what he is known as  these days) -- Since:
a) the works under his name allowed late neoplatonism ("Proclus" IIRC) to make it into Western Christianity "just in time" (whatever that means...I guess in time to "flesh-out" the metaphysics of the heavenly heirarchy, just in time for the Carolingians to look suitably Byzantine)
b) He was a big deal in the monasteries attached to the Frankish Kings...St. Denys (for obvious reasons) and the Oriflame were some how associated with him
c) okay...I think full proskynesis violates the "icondule" compromise
d) but its nice that even St. Dionysius gets noticed occasionally
e) though maybe only as put up by an icondule prankster
f) though maybe there was a calendrical reason that icon was on the wall there
g) Wkipedia on Proclus is pretty neato: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proclus

[MengJiao]

This thread makes me so happy I could cry, if only I could remember how.

   Reading Proclus made Ralph Waldo Emerson happy.  I might cry about that:

Wikipedia says:
  His work inspired the New England Transcendentalists, including Ralph Waldo Emerson, who declared in 1843 that, in reading Proclus, "I am filled with hilarity & spring, my heart dances, my sight is quickened, I behold shining relations between all beings, and am impelled to write and almost to sing."

[Gusington]

Hmm maybe...

[MengJiao]

  Cape Esperance, Imperial Destroyer takes a big hit (and a lot of US shells miss also):

   

[JasonPratt]

To be clear, a philosopher Dionysius is mentioned (Acts 17:34) as a convert from St. Paul's famous address at the Mars Hill forum in Athens (thus Dionysius the Areopagite), and is traditionally regarded as the first bishop of Athens. So Eastern Orthodoxy, like any conservative/ancient Christian group, does think he exists. (Similarly the female philosopher Damaris!)

However, a set of very popular and influential but very late texts, orthodox (and generally catholic) in theology but purporting to be from this same person, have been decisively rejected in recent centuries as actually being written by him, even by conservative/ancient Christian groups including Eastern Orthodoxy.


None of this explains the original 1908 Byzantine carrier post (I kind of desperately want to know what got typed originally and then autocorrected?!), although I thought Meng's extended joke trying to make it out to be intentional was pretty funny. (And religiously super-geeky, which naturally I approve!)

Also, the alt-fic plotting side of my head wants to see or maybe write a story of an alternate history where Constantinople didn't fall to become Istanbul, and consequently the Eastern Empire survived and recovered so strongly that by 1908 they not only had at least one aircraft carrier but, of course, sanctified it with at least one icon! 

[MengJiao]

None of this explains the original 1908 Byzantine carrier post (I kind of desperately want to know what got typed originally and then autocorrected?!), although I thought Meng's extended joke trying to make it out to be intentional was pretty funny. (And religiously super-geeky, which naturally I approve!)

Also, the alt-fic plotting side of my head wants to see or maybe write a story of an alternate history where Constantinople didn't fall to become Istanbul, and consequently the Eastern Empire survived and recovered so strongly that by 1908 they not only had at least one aircraft carrier but, of course, sanctified it with at least one icon! 

   Apparently some US naval vessels have been flying the Byzantine Flag -- cuz (apparently) the Turks have turned the Hagia Sophia back into a Mosque.  It was a museum from 1935 to 2020.  The place needs a lot of work so if it can be repaired better as a mosque  -- so much the better -- apparently the Byzantine themselves regularly scraped the faces off of the various Emperors and such in the mosaics.  Anyway -- perhaps the less said about Byzantium the better.

[Gusington]

^I disagree. More Byzantium always = more gooder.

[Philippe]

...where Constantinople didn't fall to become Istanbul...

One of the explanations for the name Istanbul is that it comes from the Greek 'eis ten polin' which would have been pronounced 'ees teen polin' (that's pretty much how it was pronounced in Roman times, and the modern pronunciation is the same). It means 'into the city', and Manhattanites used to use a similar idiom. So Constantinople may have become Istanbul in the vernacular long before the fall in 1453.

If you need an icon for your alternate history, here's one from the 17th century of St. Stephen and a cynokephalic St. Christopher

[Jarhead0331]

I keep coming into this thread to get updated impressions of the game...there are few. 

[Rayfer]

I keep coming into this thread to get updated impressions of the game...there are few. 

Sadly (for me that is, others, I'm sure, see it differently), many a game-specific thread like this one gets lost/diverted/highjacked then abandoned and forgotten.  :-\

[W8taminute]

I'm watching this thread too for opinions.  Based on watching some videos by TheHistoricalGamer on YouTube however I'm thinking this is a fun game. 

From what he has been showing I think I would like this game even if it does seem to have a weird user interface.