Crusader Kings II - Aztecs

[Nefaro]

I could, perhaps, see a separate campaign in the Americas at the time, or even an early landing situation in NA.  But last I checked, the meso-americans weren't exactly deep ocean-farers, were they?  :o

[LongBlade]

I could, perhaps, see a separate campaign in the Americas at the time, or even an early landing situation in NA.  But last I checked, the meso-americans weren't exactly deep ocean-farers, were they?  :o

Not exactly, though there are theories out there that at some time some deep ocean farers were crossing the Pacific in the past.

I'm willing to suspend disbelief, but given the realm of possible expansions and the grounded nature of the Crusader Kings franchise, it is something of a surprising departure, no?

[Silent Disapproval Robot]

If by surprising you mean retarded, then I agree.  It's devolving into "Deadliest Warrior" territory.  What's next, Zulus vs. Samurai?

[Nefaro]

I could, perhaps, see a separate campaign in the Americas at the time, or even an early landing situation in NA.  But last I checked, the meso-americans weren't exactly deep ocean-farers, were they?  :o

Not exactly, though there are theories out there that at some time some deep ocean farers were crossing the Pacific in the past.

I'm willing to suspend disbelief, but given the realm of possible expansions and the grounded nature of the Crusader Kings franchise, it is something of a surprising departure, no?

The Pacific Islanders were indeed accomplished deep sea-farers.  But it's believed they only showed up on the west coast of South America back in the Dark Ages, when the "native" americans already had civilization booming there, and integrated with them.   The last mesoamericans I'd expect to sail to Europe would be those on the west coast of South America, on the west side of the Andes.

[Martok]

I'm willing to suspend disbelief, but given the realm of possible expansions and the grounded nature of the Crusader Kings franchise, it is something of a surprising departure, no?

I think you've put your finger on why this new DLC bothers me so much:  With all the rich historical material from this period to draw upon for interesting "what if" scenarios, why in the hell would you waste the time & resources on a scenario so ridiculously implausible??  It's beyond absurd. 

I'd have an easier believing a "Celtic Rage" expansion, wherein an Irish or Scottish noble rises to conquer all of Europe... 

[Arctic Blast]

Bah, wake me up when it's interesting...like Braveheart vs. Sun Tzu or something.

[son_of_montfort]

I'm willing to suspend disbelief, but given the realm of possible expansions and the grounded nature of the Crusader Kings franchise, it is something of a surprising departure, no?

I think you've put your finger on why this new DLC bothers me so much:  With all the rich historical material from this period to draw upon for interesting "what if" scenarios, why in the hell would you waste the time & resources on a scenario so ridiculously implausible??  It's beyond absurd. 

I'd have an easier believing a "Celtic Rage" expansion, wherein an Irish or Scottish noble rises to conquer all of Europe...

Even the Mongols would have been more believable, or perhaps a DLC based on a "what if Charles Martel lost the battle of Poitiers and France in 1066 was under Muslim control" - then you could play as rebellious Christian nobles trying an all-out Reconquista of Europe.

I would even believe a "what if China went to the West rather than the West going to China (with Marco Polo)" scenario - although that is really just a Mongol scenario like I said above.

Heck, it would have been even cooler to play up some of the actual what-ifs of the era. What if Clovis had not converted and the Franks remained Pagan, so France in 1066 was a Pagan kingdom? What if the Vikings had conquered Europe or England instead of raiding it (so Normandy would be the overlords of all of France in 1066). What if the Pope had decided to be a warlord and expand the Papal States against the Holy Roman Empire following the Gregorian Reform and the Investiture Controversy? What if the Lombard league of Republican City-States had gathered support from ascending Florence and Genoa and taken the fight north against Barbarossa, freeing the German cities and creating non-feudal city republics? What if the plague had not happened, and European populations stayed high?

So much to work with that we really don't need the Aztecs. It feels intellectually dishonest to be so fantastic. Why did they not hire a medievalist (like me) and run through plausible and interesting scenarios before hitting the outlandish and idiotic?

[Martok]

I fully concur with what you're saying, SoM, so I'll merely confine my response to your (rhetorical?) question: 

So much to work with that we really don't need the Aztecs. It feels intellectually dishonest to be so fantastic. Why did they not hire a medievalist (like me) and run through plausible and interesting scenarios before hitting the outlandish and idiotic?

It sounds like a fan first suggested the "Sunset Invasion" idea, and that it apparently resonated with the devs (or at least a few of them) so well that they took the ball and ran with it. 

So in essence, we now have this Aztec DLC because (in all likelihood) two or three guys at Paradox were sufficiently enthralled with the idea, who then impressed their vision on the rest of the team...  :-\ 


Ah well.  As others have pointed out, at least I don't have to purchase it to still enjoy the game. 

[son_of_montfort]

I just realized that the base game (without the CK+ mod) doesn't even have Judaism in the game. They should have at least worked on adding Jews (a hugely important European minority in the middle ages) before Aztecs, IMHO.

[LongBlade]

I just realized that the base game (without the CK+ mod) doesn't even have Judaism in the game. They should have at least worked on adding Jews (a hugely important European minority in the middle ages) before Aztecs, IMHO.

Yes, but it wouldn't play too well from a PR perspective if they had had offered the ability to discriminate against them. Easier to leave it all out, I suspect.

[Nefaro]

I just realized that the base game (without the CK+ mod) doesn't even have Judaism in the game. They should have at least worked on adding Jews (a hugely important European minority in the middle ages) before Aztecs, IMHO.

Yes, but it wouldn't play too well from a PR perspective if they had had offered the ability to discriminate against them. Easier to leave it all out, I suspect.

Agreed. 

The only thing you would regularly see would be christian europeans killing the minority Jews during every crusade and witch hunt.  It was like a tradition at the time.  ::)  Not much enjoyment to be gained with that modelled in-game.  :-[

[Senex]

So when is the "Gauls Gone Wild" DLC slated for release?

[LongBlade]

So when is the "Gauls Gone Wild" DLC slated for release?

<chuckle>

Well played, sir.

[besilarius]

Now, LB, it's not all that simple.
While to most people (westerners) the Jews were a minority with a distrusted religion, in the southern steppes of modern day Ukraine, was a vibrant, militarily significant, kingdom, the Khazars.
Caught between the strict Christians of the north and west, and the Muslims of the South and east, the Khazars found a middle path, they converted to Judaism.  This greatly confounded their neighbors, as no other kingdom in history, was Jewish.
Not only that, but as firm allies of Byzantium, they helped keep the Arabs out of the steppes of Russia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars

[HG Erzherzog Josefs]

i pass .. CK2 is a great game .. if i want fantasy i play torchlight ii