Crusader Kings II - Aztecs

[son_of_montfort]

I just realized that the base game (without the CK+ mod) doesn't even have Judaism in the game. They should have at least worked on adding Jews (a hugely important European minority in the middle ages) before Aztecs, IMHO.

Yes, but it wouldn't play too well from a PR perspective if they had had offered the ability to discriminate against them. Easier to leave it all out, I suspect.

Agreed. 

The only thing you would regularly see would be christian europeans killing the minority Jews during every crusade and witch hunt.  It was like a tradition at the time.  ::)  Not much enjoyment to be gained with that modelled in-game.  :-[

It was also a tradition for Jews to be long-distance traders, members of royal courts, legal scholars, bankers, and productive members of society. The idea of constant and rampant Anti-Jewish violence in the middle ages is inaccurate (I'm not claiming it wasn't horrible when it happened, but that daily life was not always violent and unpleasant for Jews). To me, it is more of a PR blunder to leave out a religious group that was extremely socially and intellectually important to the middle ages.

[Nefaro]

I just realized that the base game (without the CK+ mod) doesn't even have Judaism in the game. They should have at least worked on adding Jews (a hugely important European minority in the middle ages) before Aztecs, IMHO.

Yes, but it wouldn't play too well from a PR perspective if they had had offered the ability to discriminate against them. Easier to leave it all out, I suspect.

Agreed. 

The only thing you would regularly see would be christian europeans killing the minority Jews during every crusade and witch hunt.  It was like a tradition at the time.  ::)  Not much enjoyment to be gained with that modelled in-game.  :-[

It was also a tradition for Jews to be long-distance traders, members of royal courts, legal scholars, bankers, and productive members of society. The idea of constant and rampant Anti-Jewish violence in the middle ages is inaccurate (I'm not claiming it wasn't horrible when it happened, but that daily life was not always violent and unpleasant for Jews). To me, it is more of a PR blunder to leave out a religious group that was extremely socially and intellectually important to the middle ages.

Yes, I know.  Although whenever luck went bad, we know who would be the first to get the blame and somewhat regularly the violence & killing whenever large groups gathered.

I also think the Jewish religion should be in the game but mainly for the aforementioned Khazar reason.  I just can't see many Jews being given regular positions in the higher nobility, in these violently Christian kingdoms of the time.  Since the tiny middle-class isn't modelled in CK2, I'd think that aspect would have to be added to the whole system before being able to do so.

[Martok]

Would also like to see the Jews be able to play an in-game role with respect to the politics & dimplomacy with the Crusader states.  Surely they had to have had a good amount of influence in the region. 

i pass .. CK2 is a great game .. if i want fantasy i play torchlight ii

Heh. 

Welcome to Grogheads! 

[jomni]

Looks like a resounding 'NO' from our community.

[tgb]

What is the CK+ mod?

[Martok]

Looks like a resounding 'NO' from our community.

Yup...and not just here either. 

Of the gaming sites I've visited in the last few days since Sunset Invasion was announced, far & away the biggest response has been one of bafflement and/or derision.  There are some who are intrigued/enthralled by the idea, but they're clearly a minority. 

[Yskonyn]

I am just now getting into CK2.
No mods.

The premise of the game really intrigues me, but I find the myriad of buttons you can click on make it very hard to focus on the important stuff.
I mean, with all those options presented, there are bound to be a lot of menu's or parts of menu's that are only really relevant in certain situations or otherwise not used very often.
I am ploughing through the Tutorial, but if it's as non-informative as the one in EU3 I don't think I will become much wiser as to how the game works.
The manual isn't too helpful either; it only tells you which button is labelled what and opens which menu, but it doesn't go very much into what makes the game tick.

Granted, I am still in the 'Basic' tutorial section of the game, I do wonder wether the tutorial is any good later on? For now I have only seen pretty much what is in the manual; telling me which button opens which menu screen. :)

One of the things that help getting around are the tooltips and expanded tooltips. A game like this really needs something like it. So that helps a little at least.

Any tips to getting started from you guys, please?

[Wolfe1759]

Yskonyn - I found the Crusader Kings 2 - Guide For Newbies by SeeKayEm99 a very good if lengthy place to start, part 1 is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMzAXqOqV5k&feature=plcp

[undercovergeek]

I am just now getting into CK2.
No mods.

The premise of the game really intrigues me, but I find the myriad of buttons you can click on make it very hard to focus on the important stuff.
I mean, with all those options presented, there are bound to be a lot of menu's or parts of menu's that are only really relevant in certain situations or otherwise not used very often.
I am ploughing through the Tutorial, but if it's as non-informative as the one in EU3 I don't think I will become much wiser as to how the game works.
The manual isn't too helpful either; it only tells you which button is labelled what and opens which menu, but it doesn't go very much into what makes the game tick.

Granted, I am still in the 'Basic' tutorial section of the game, I do wonder wether the tutorial is any good later on? For now I have only seen pretty much what is in the manual; telling me which button opens which menu screen. :)

One of the things that help getting around are the tooltips and expanded tooltips. A game like this really needs something like it. So that helps a little at least.

Any tips to getting started from you guys, please?

you could read the AAR on the front page, some awesome writer guy is adding to it as we speak  :P

[Yskonyn]

undercovergeek.. hmz who would that talented writer be, I wonder. ;) Thanks I will check it out.

Wolfe, thanks for the video link. Surely going to check that out as well.
You guys will probably hear from me here. :)

[Gusington]

I wonder if I could trace my lineage back 1000 years if I could trace it to the Khazars. I am part Ukrainian.

SoM is correct above when he states that it wasn't always horrific for Jews in Europe for the last 1000 years.

One of the areas where Jews thrived the most was Germany.

All that said, I bet that Judaism is left out of CKII for the same reason that slavery was left out of Colonization...too complicated and too easy to be miscontrued/misunderstood in its representation.

[LongBlade]

I wonder if I could trace my lineage back 1000 years if I could trace it to the Khazars. I am part Ukrainian.

SoM is correct above when he states that it wasn't always horrific for Jews in Europe for the last 1000 years.

One of the areas where Jews thrived the most was Germany.

All that said, I bet that Judaism is left out of CKII for the same reason that slavery was left out of Colonization...too complicated and too easy to be miscontrued/misunderstood in its representation.

I figure if we trace my family roots back far enough we'll find we were peasants who were abused by various powers at various times. It would not surprise me at all to find I have some Mongol blood in me somewhere.

[son_of_montfort]

I just can't see many Jews being given regular positions in the higher nobility, in these violently Christian kingdoms of the time.

This was an extremely common practice throughout Europe, in particular in the Mediterranean south. There were even Jewish noble landowners in Spain (before the 16th century anyway). Jews sat as the kings' advisers and were often treasurers (part of where the Jewish stereotype of being connected to money originates). It changes by the 14th century, but in Marseille, there was a synagogue, many prominent Jewish businessmen, and cohabitation between Jews and Christians all the way until Marseille's entrance into the Kingdom of France in the late 1400s. Much of the religious violence happened in the Imperial territories in the German east, but even then you have to think that it wasn't the kingdoms who were violent it was localities - centralized power was not existent in the middle ages.

figure if we trace my family roots back far enough we'll find we were peasants who were abused by various powers at various times. It would not surprise me at all to find I have some Mongol blood in me somewhere.

If you have anyone connected to Spain, you likely have Muslim and Jewish roots. Also in Germany. The idea that the religions didn't mix is ludicrous, we all know people love to... *ahem*... "connect" with one another frequently and regardless of personal beliefs. The red hair of the Irish comes from Vikings (I think everyone probably has at least a drop of Viking DNA, even as far as North Africa).

What is the CK+ mod?

They were talking about it on Octopus Overlords. It really adds a TON of stuff while still keeping the mechanics and flavor of vanilla. The Jews and the Khazar are in there, for instance, and there are a much wider variety and frequency of heresies. Also more realistic and accurate counties, duchies, and kingdoms. I haven't gotten to play with it much yet, but what I saw looks stronger than the base game without being something completely new and game-breaking. It also works with all of the DLC. The only problem is keeping it updated, as they update very actively.

Check it out at the Paradox Forums here:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?587854-WizCK2-Balance-improvements-more-kingdoms-and-empires-more-ambitions-and-plots&p=13460212&viewfull=1#post13460212

You do need to sign in to the P-dox forums to see it and DL it.

EDIT: I do have to wonder about the philosophy of "sanitizing" history in order to be more politically correct. How is it right to add a bloodthirsty Aztec race that can fantastically make it to Europe and take captives and sacrifice them to their gods on altars but not put in the Jews because they really went through these things? Does it not, in a sense, led to forgetting the importance of a marginalized, mistreated, but also extremely important group? I guess I have a problem with the idea that you can have an execution button in CK2, where - if you wanted to - you could personally massacre characters that have rudimentary artificial intelligence, personalities, and pictures, but it is too sensitive to put Jews in - even as a just characters - because people might do bad things to them.

When you send your knights to crush a peasant rebellion and the numbers drop in the combat dialog, what do people think is happening there? They aren't being patted on the back and sent home with a "good show." When you click the "Missionary" button on your court chaplain and send him to a place and you get the "Inquisition Starts" event, what do people think is happening there? He isn't giving them candy to love Jesus.

To me, sanitization of history is a grave insult to the people that actually had these things happen to them. I would rather have a game where the social cost of using violence is high (and CK2 has mechanisms for this) so that people realize it was an option for medieval leaders but not the only or best option. Removing a key racial group from a game is, to me, more insulting than putting them in.

[MetalDog]

Yskonyn, you will not find very much help in the Tutorials.  Your best bet is to dive in, start pressing buttons and trying things.  The tooltips help immensely. 

I haven't played until 1453 yet, but my current game, starting as the Count of Breifne in Ireland, is at almost 1200 A.D. and humming along.  I am King of Ireland with all the Counties of Ireland under my direct control or vassallage.  I am trying to involve myself in Brittany.  A Muslim Kingdom from Spain has recently conquered the entire Kingdom of Brittany except for the County of Vannes, which belongs to my vassal.  Said Sultan declared war on me and attacked Vannes.  His troops outnumbered me  ~ 25, 000 to ~ 10,000.  Much to my delight, the Kings of England and Scotland, along with assorted independant Counties and Duchies, offered to join my Crusade Against the Infidel!  When I stopped for the night, the Sultan had offered me peace along with Prestige gains and a large sum of money, but if I accept, the progress I have made in besieging his lands in Brittany will come to naught.  It will be status quo antebellum.  I'm going to go back and play it out until I get 100% warscore and see if my gains are more substantial.  If not, I will reload and accept peace now.

Sorry about the tangent.  A few things I learned the hard way were:

County sites, your Castle (which is usually the capitol), your city, (Oxford comma) and your Bishopric can be upgraded.  Just click on them to open the menu.

Succession Law, if it not already Primogeniture should probably be changed to it a.s.a.p.  And a Tax boost of one level can probably be borne by your vassals, but don't upset them.  They produce the bulk of your troops and revenue.

A positive relationship with your family, your courtiers and your vassals is VERY important.  For example, unless you have a positive relationship with the Mayor of your city, he will refuse you his revenue and troop levy.  Another example is the relationship with the Bishop of your Church.  If he likes the Pope better than you, he will deny you his revenue.

In order to declare war, you must have a Casus Belli.  You gain them through 1) marriage, 2) fabrication,  3) de Jure or 4) pressing the claim of a Courtier.  If you right click a characters portrait, a set of options becomes available to you.  If you have a Casus Belli with that character, you will be able to see the icon that represents a declaration of war. Clicking that will bring you to the Diplomacy screen which will lay out your options and the associated costs in Popularity, Prestige and the like.  You can gain an understanding of what you are up against in war by clicking an opponents county, then his fiefs.  It will tell you how far along the research trail s/he is at that moment.

There are numerous ways to each of your options with the characters you interact with.  Try to familiarize yourself with all of them.  Find the one that works for you, but be aware of how to get to all of them.  For instance, if you right click a character portrait and select the option to get them married, the list of available spouses is confined to your present pool of courtiers in your court.  But if you go to that character's information screen, you will find the gold wedding bands as its own option and clicking it will open a pool of eligible spouses from all over the world.

There is a myriad of other things, like your advisors, have them be as high a number in their requisite stat as possible.  The highest I have employed so far is a Chancellor wirh a 29 Diplomacy score.  And there are ways to improve your relations with those you interact with.  Giving them lands of their own, giving them titles, like Master of the Horse or Cupbearer, and gifting them Gold, all work.  Some better than others.

Hope this is helpful to you.  Sorry for highjacking the thread.  And if you're up for some MP, my Steam moniker is stophro.

[Yskonyn]

Much appreciated, MetalDog!  ;D