A'stan Vet Denied Apartment

[Toonces]

Is there some law that says she has to rent to someone that applies?  As a landlord, I would like the right to choose who I rent to, and who I do not rent to. 

I certainly don't like to see someone offended like this.  On the same note, being in the military I certainly don't want a landlord that is anti-military...that's just asking for headaches.

[Toonces]

Ok, so I read the article.  I understand the drama here, but maybe I'm just being naive.  She belongs to an anti-war group, certainly her right, and she doesn't feel that having a soldier living among a bunch of anti-war activists is a good idea.  I agree with her.

Am I crazy here?  I know that defending the soldier is the automatic response from the gut, but according to the article she didn't say he couldn't rent from her, but that he'd probably be more comfortable somewhere else.

I don't know how discrimination laws work exactly, but if I was a pro-military landlord and most of my tenants were soldiers and sailors from the nearby military base, I wouldn't be enthusiastic to rent to an anti-war, peace-loving occupy Wall Street-type activist.  Would you guys be saying same thing if the roles were reversed?

[Jarhead0331]

^I think you're missing the point.  For me, this issue is not about the letter of the law.  It is about what is right, and what is wrong.  It's about sticking it to someone who is discriminating (yes, suggesting that he would be better off looking elsewhere, is discrimination) against someone simply for serving his country honorably and following orders.  The lawsuit probably won't go anywhere.  I mean, what are his damages?  Nominal I would say...but that's not the point.  This b*tch should be in the news for her moronic opinion.  You want to disagree with the war, fine.  But to take it out on the guys who went over there and bled?  I don't think so.

As someone who wears a uniform, I'd expect you to get this.

[son_of_montfort]

Like what Toonces said, I looked at a property this week that was largely rented out (over 80% I would say) by enlisted men and women living right off of a large and well-known airforce base. While I am not the dreadlock wearing, peace-sign-in-the-yard hippie type, but IF I were, I would think that might have the potential for causing some neighborhood strife. I doubt the leasing office would have said anything, because they love money and were of the "rent first, fix problems later" mentality, but I could see the potential for some role reversal here.

This woman shouldn't hold these opinions, and - like Steelie said - she is probably the type who thinks she loves all people and works for equality, but then pulls stunts like this that show her prejudices. But, it is her First Amendment right to say such things and it is her property-owner right to decide who rents her property. What she doesn't see is that this soldier joined the National Guard and took an oath to protect those very rights.

That being said, if this is really how the lady is - would he really WANT to live near her? Sounds like he dodged a bullet here.

[Jarhead0331]

Like what Toonces said, I looked at a property this week that was largely rented out (over 80% I would say) by enlisted men and women living right off of a large and well-known airforce base. While I am not the dreadlock wearing, peace-sign-in-the-yard hippie type, but IF I were, I would think that might have the potential for causing some neighborhood strife. I doubt the leasing office would have said anything, because they love money and were of the "rent first, fix problems later" mentality, but I could see the potential for some role reversal here.

Why would you living near military personnel have potential for causing neighborhood strife?  Would you hang an American Flag upside down?  Would you spit in their face when passing them in the mail room?  Would you call them baby killers at every opportunity you get?  I highly doubt you would conduct yourself in that manner, regardless of your political opinions.  At the same time, would you expect any of those airmen to waive the flag in your face, or question your reasons for never serving, or hang an effigy of a hippie?  I don't think they would act that way either, so why the strife?  The political ideology of my neighbors has never once crossed my mind...

[son_of_montfort]

No no... I said, IF I were the hippie, peace-sign-in-the-yard type. I'm not. What I was saying is, I could see a fairly vocal anti-war protester causing problems in a neighborhood full of 18-20 year old newly enlisted airmen and women.

The confusion from that statement came from using myself as the rhetorical question here. Of course I wouldn't do any of those things.

It isn't so much the political ideology of one neighbor, it is if the entire neighborhood holds a certain ideology or is in a certain group and then a person who is antithetical to that group or ideology moves in. It was less than 50 years when race was a huge factor for landlords. And don't think homosexuals moving into conservative neighborhoods don't get harassed. I have no reason to believe that an anti-war protestor moving next to a military base wouldn't get harassed or that a vet moving into an apartment building filled with anti-war protestors would not feel uncomfortable or get harassed. We, as a society, have not moved past the "protect the neighborhood from the outsider" mentality.

I imagine, in this case, the landlady felt that conversations in the hall, posters posted on doors, and the general vibe of the place would be a daily irritant for this Guardsman. Given she made a huge case about it, I'm inclined to believe that is exactly what would have happened. He should be glad that he didn't get the apartment, IMHO, as it is pretty clear from her actions that he would have been treated poorly.

But, she still has the right to say and do those things, just like certain hate-groups have the right to convene despite being despicable. 

[meadbelly]

I am sorry, but I am not going to accept any horseshit defense for this person. If you are anti-war, and you believe that has anything to do with soldiers, you are nothing more than anti-intelligent.

I'm going to shout again.

IF YOU DEFINE AN INDIVIDUAL BY THE ATTRIBUTES YOU ASSIGN TO A GROUP YOU ARE A BIGGER F**KING PROBLEM THAN WAR.

Yes, I'd say the same damn fucking thing to the any military f**cktard that had a problem with an antiwar activist moving in. I'd quite frankly be a little more pissed off, but I have unreasonable expectations. I tend to paint my heroes in fairly favorable light, and I'm damned pissed off when they let me down.

The lady -- or our theoretical military apartment (in reality, I know they are not theoretical. You don't have to drive too far from JBLM to find civilian apartment complexes that are massively military) -- has a right to rent to whom they choose (within discrimination laws of course, which in this case i'm not sure includes creed). I'm not even sure it's a bad thing to warn potential residents of what they might be getting into. I'd, for example, like to know if I'm moving into a complex full of busty, open-minded coeds. That way I'd know approximately when the awesome girlfriend would just flat out kill me.

I do not have a problem so much with the actions portrayed here. I have a problem with the underlying hypocrisy and danger such thinking represent. It is a denial of any community other than like-mindedness. Worst, it is a construction of a jingoistic community actively seeking to insulate themselves from changeisdifferentisscaryisbad. To desire a community that is homogenously insular is fundamentally anti-democracti, fundamentally anti-community, fundamentally anti-social, fundamentally anti-f**cking-homo-sapiens. It is balkanization at the individual level. It may very well be our doom.

It is PRECISELY the attitude that allows us to war on our fellow human, and it is precisely the attitude that drives us to want to.

She is not anti-war. She is merely sowing the seeds to ensure that we'll always war.

[son_of_montfort]

I hope you don't think I was defending her or her position. Merely, as you said, the right of the landlord to refuse to rent.

In fact, I totally agree with you and Steelgrave, her maltreatment of a vet shows that her belief in equality and human worth is a farce. I guess her compassion only extends to those who agree with her.

I do not have a problem so much with the actions portrayed here. I have a problem with the underlying hypocrisy and danger such thinking represent. It is a denial of any community other than like-mindedness. Worst, it is a construction of a jingoistic community actively seeking to insulate themselves from changeisdifferentisscaryisbad. To desire a community that is homogenously insular is fundamentally anti-democracti, fundamentally anti-community, fundamentally anti-social, fundamentally anti-f**cking-homo-sapiens. It is balkanization at the individual level. It may very well be our doom.

It is PRECISELY the attitude that allows us to war on our fellow human, and it is precisely the attitude that drives us to want to.

This is what I was trying to say, but you put it much much better. The unfortunate reality is that we still have communities where gays/blacks/jews/whites/hippies/vets/hispanics/<insert whatever here> aren't welcome. Until we deal with that, we can't deal with a lot of our problems.

This lady missed, as you say, a golden opportunity. If she disliked the war, she SHOULD have wanted to rent the apartment to a vet, letting him know that the building was full of anti-war protestors but letting him decide. Then, you try to understand the other person's perspective. You learn, you grow, you come to a consensus. She didn't want to grow - she wanted to stick to her ignorant viewpoint with no chance to adapt. We don't adapt, we die.

I'm reminded of the movie Gran Torino. The message of that movie is obvious. Sometimes we learn more by understanding and living with those we fear than by trying to oppose them.

[meadbelly]

^My apologies to SoM, Toonces, or others if they felt my rant was a negative response to their posts. I shouldn't have started out with, "I'm not going to apologize for. . ." as that clearly implied I thought you were apologizing for her behavior. You weren't. Quite frankly, I think you both added some needed perspective as you pointed out that the actions of the landlord was likely within legal rights and likely had the best of intentions. There are likely others who maintained that perspective while still directing their invective. I didn't.

Thinking through why I was still so upset in light of your observations clarified my thinking. So, seriously -- thank you.

Hopefully I'll get over my recent abuse of "likely" sooner rather than later.

In the meantime, I am going to buy some underwear.

(^completely unrelated^)

[son_of_montfort]

That should have been:

"In the meantime, I am likely going to buy some underwear."

Meadbelly,

I think your rant was both justified and insightful. You really put into words something I was feeling, but didn't say.

[meadbelly]

^Roflmao. Yes, that is precisely what I should have said!

(And thanks for the compliment.)

[Toonces]

Let me put it this way.  When I was going to NPS in Monterey I was fortunate to rent a house in Carmel.  I used to surf Carmel beach alot and there was a house pretty close to the stairs going down that I always had to pass on my way to surf.  The dude had a car parked out front that was as anti-military as you could make a vehicle....peace symbols all over, tons of anti-war/anti-military bumper stickers all over (How many Iraqi babies have you killed today...that type of stuff) and what not.  In his yard he always had some sort of anti-war sign/slogan/banner/whatever.  Given that this guy was living in a multi-million dollar beachfront house, his neighbors must have been stoked. 

Anyway, every time I passed this car it just pissed me off to no end to the point where I very seriously considered vandalizing his car repeatedly.  You know, let the air out of the tires, leave a nasty note on his windshield, whatever.  I never did, but I really got worked up sometimes looking at this guys car and yard.

If I was renting a house and this dude applied to be a tenant, I would have a very difficult...no, impossible...time renting to him.  His views are just to contrary to what is important to me for me to forgive him and to implicitly condone his beliefs by renting him my property. 

I don't think I should be sued for making that decision, and I don't think this lady deserves to be sued for doing essentially the same thing in reverse.

Now, that doesn't make her less of a douchebag, but I don't think she's done anything really wrong legally.  But I don't know.  I'm not trying to make JH or anyone else mad, but I do get...I don't know the word...when everyone jumps on the obvious side of indignation without thinking of both sides of the issue.  I don't want to say too more on this vein because I like posting here and I don't want to chuff anyone off.  As a military guy I certainly don't want to see our troops penalized for being troops.  In my experience civilians have been overwhelmingly supportive of our troops, or to me at least.  I'm glad our military is getting the recognition it deserves because it's a tough life.  I definitely don't like what this woman did, but I don't think she is the devil and I don't think she deserves to be sued over it.  That's all.

[MikeGER]

she trapped over her own Political Correctness  and spoke out her thoughts... a non-PC person ;D like me - which has 'prejudice' (of course ...better save then sorry) against certain persons coming to my country from certain parts of the word with certions ideologies camouflaged as religion and certain medieval family traditions which are not even in their holy book  ::) -would on sight just keep quiet and rise the rent to an insane-high but not out the world level (like 210%) ... and even when the f*&%in S.allah.fist and his greenish PC-support-group later find out that i had rented the place to -maybe an engineer student- for half the rent i told, cries Discrimination and tries to sue me ... i could simply say: i liked that customer and his/her studies in general so i gave a 'natural science support' discount :P
...or 'young musician' discount, a 'table top  gamer' discount ...and so on  ...or even a 'model school' discount 8) that would be best from my landlord point of view ;)     

[Jarhead0331]

Now, that doesn't make her less of a douchebag, but I don't think she's done anything really wrong legally.  But I don't know.  I'm not trying to make JH or anyone else mad, but I do get...I don't know the word...when everyone jumps on the obvious side of indignation without thinking of both sides of the issue.  I don't want to say too more on this vein because I like posting here and I don't want to chuff anyone off.  As a military guy I certainly don't want to see our troops penalized for being troops.  In my experience civilians have been overwhelmingly supportive of our troops, or to me at least.  I'm glad our military is getting the recognition it deserves because it's a tough life.  I definitely don't like what this woman did, but I don't think she is the devil and I don't think she deserves to be sued over it.  That's all.

Don't think about pissing anybody off, bro.  Its a forum and I think we all know each other well enough so that we can debate these issues and still be friends at the end of it all. 

I certainly see your point. And yes, we serve so that this village idiot and people like her, can openly express their moronic opinions.  However, I see nothing wrong with filing a lawsuit here and getting some media attention/negative publicity thrown her way.  I don't believe he'll prevail on the law in the suit, but I don't think its frivolous either.  Veterans are somewhat of a quasi-protected class, as they should be.

[mirth]

I support the landlady's right to choose her renters, but she didn't have to be stupid and tell the guy "Hey I don't want to rent to you because your a vet". She's going to get sued because she was dumb in how she handle it.