Hi all,
Here is the discussion thread for discussion on the latest Dom5 PBEM being played by:
solops
Ajidica
TheMeInTeam
W8taminute
We're playing in the Middle Ages with 6 Thrones, two of which are level 2 while the rest are level 1. I'll let each player involved announce what nation they're playing but as for me I'm playing as T'ien Chi.
Ah, the flying masters of rainbow magic! One of my favorites.
Quote from: airboy on February 27, 2020, 12:39:56 PM
Ah, the flying masters of rainbow magic! One of my favorites.
Yes good old rainbow magic. I think I've figured out a good strategy with them too that I want to try out in this game.
Playing as Shinuyama with the god Big In Japan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdWZKb659K0).
^Alphaville was awesome! O0
Thanks!
Do we need to do anything to start the game (ie: get turns sent out)? Llamaserver says everyone's pretender has been submitted.
Quote from: Ajidica on February 29, 2020, 09:06:39 AM
Thanks!
Do we need to do anything to start the game (ie: get turns sent out)? Llamaserver says everyone's pretender has been submitted.
Yes, I have to activate it manually because I forgot to check the auto start game option. We should be getting our first turn now.
I played 1st turn earlier today. We're in different time zones it seems (I'm US East) so it'll be hard to get blazing fast turnarounds, but I can usually hit turns after work so shouldn't be too bad.
I am playing MA Xibalba, which is supposed to be a bad nation. Though I don't think it belongs with stuff like EA Kailasa or MA Eriu personally.
The roster for this game is interesting. There are no true water nations, but three nations with significant amphibious capability.
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on February 29, 2020, 08:57:45 PM
Though I don't think it belongs with stuff like EA Kailasa or MA Eriu personally.
I think EA Kailasa gets a worse rap than it deserves. You have size three two-attack recruit anywhere sacreds with few units requiring substantial resources. The Yavanas and Yakashas may be cap only, but they aren't slow to recruit and are guaranteed to be level three mages in either earth or water.
Monkey troops aren't good, but at least Kailasa has good access to a lot of the big buff spells in earth and nature. Bandar Warriors with strength of giants are surprisingly heavy hitters.
Quote from: Ajidica on March 01, 2020, 12:25:46 AM
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on February 29, 2020, 08:57:45 PM
Though I don't think it belongs with stuff like EA Kailasa or MA Eriu personally.
I think EA Kailasa gets a worse rap than it deserves. You have size three two-attack recruit anywhere sacreds with few units requiring substantial resources. The Yavanas and Yakashas may be cap only, but they aren't slow to recruit and are guaranteed to be level three mages in either earth or water.
Monkey troops aren't good, but at least Kailasa has good access to a lot of the big buff spells in earth and nature. Bandar Warriors with strength of giants are surprisingly heavy hitters.
Problem with your recruit-anywhere sacreds is that they have no prot. So if you want to expand at all, you need to either run an awake expander or do more than just trash sloth to get a high end incarnate bless. You can do that of course, and then you have some recruitable thugs that can take blesses and a decent nature/astral communion. But your troops are still bad, and unless you took a resistance bless (which isn't viable for expansion) the recruit anywhere sacreds are nothing special in PvP wars after good magic comes online.
It's playable, all nations are, but it's definitely low tier. Eriu's problem is mostly different. They still have problems expanding w/ just troops, but they *also* are one dimensional in magic, so I'd grade them even lower than Kailasa who can at least break into other paths more easily and has multiple useful late game paths from the start.
I want you guys to know (and Yskonyn) that you have all cost me a lot of money. I see you guys on Steam because we are "friended". I see what you are playing. I get curious. I look at some of the games. I try to ignore what I looked at. And all too many times I go back and look again and think, "I would really like that" and I buy the damn thing. It would all be so much cheaper if you guys would just play games I already own. That whole "you can see what your friends are playing" is just EVIL.
My latest shame is IL-2 Sturmovik. Thanks for nothing W8taminute. The blasted thing was on sale 75% off.
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on March 01, 2020, 01:36:07 PM
Problem with your recruit-anywhere sacreds is that they have no prot. So if you want to expand at all, you need to either run an awake expander or do more than just trash sloth to get a high end incarnate bless. You can do that of course, and then you have some recruitable thugs that can take blesses and a decent nature/astral communion. But your troops are still bad, and unless you took a resistance bless (which isn't viable for expansion) the recruit anywhere sacreds are nothing special in PvP wars after good magic comes online.
True. When I played EA Kailasa against W8aminute I had an awake Kamahedru(sp?), the cow with astral and nature for luck/regen bless.
Further, how many nations' troops are good after serious battle magic/summons start kicking around?
QuoteIt's playable, all nations are, but it's definitely low tier. Eriu's problem is mostly different. They still have problems expanding w/ just troops, but they *also* are one dimensional in magic, so I'd grade them even lower than Kailasa who can at least break into other paths more easily and has multiple useful late game paths from the start.
Eriu needs some help, both from a mechanics standpoint and the theme of the nation doesn't fit its roster. It is supposed to be themed around the legends of Cu Chulainn and Queen Madb, but none of that comes through.
@solops: You ever play Avernum: Escape from the Pit? It is one of the best role playing games I've ever played.
Quote from: Ajidica on March 01, 2020, 09:06:12 PM
True. When I played EA Kailasa against W8aminute I had an awake Kamahedru(sp?), the cow with astral and nature for luck/regen bless.
Further, how many nations' troops are good after serious battle magic/summons start kicking around?
Not many. Great nations have good expansion troops + good mages. Average nations have one or the other, and can easily use pretender design to cover the gap + usually offer something unique as an extra (freespawn, national spells, unusual pretender options, etc). The bad nations are ones that don't have good expansion troops but also don't have great mages to cover after expansion.
Quote from: solops on March 01, 2020, 02:52:42 PM
I want you guys to know (and Yskonyn) that you have all cost me a lot of money. I see you guys on Steam because we are "friended". I see what you are playing. I get curious. I look at some of the games. I try to ignore what I looked at. And all too many times I go back and look again and think, "I would really like that" and I buy the damn thing. It would all be so much cheaper if you guys would just play games I already own. That whole "you can see what your friends are playing" is just EVIL.
My latest shame is IL-2 Sturmovik. Thanks for nothing W8taminute. The blasted thing was on sale 75% off.
Steam certainly knows what they're doing when it comes to sales. I've been known to make a few purchases after seeing what my friends are playing. Most of the time I enjoy those games that I picked up based off of what my friends are playing. Good stuff but yes friends cost money!
IL-2 Sturmovik is great fun. I noticed you picked that up. It's a decent flight sim without being insanely complicated like some of the other games out there. Once you memorize a certain few key bindings and/or button assignments on your joystick the game is very playable. That goes for both the single player campaign and multiplayer. Although in multiplayer if you do not have Track IR you are going to get bounced pretty badly and wonder where it came from. A lot of players are really good at dogfighting.
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on March 01, 2020, 10:28:31 PM
Quote from: Ajidica on March 01, 2020, 09:06:12 PM
True. When I played EA Kailasa against W8aminute I had an awake Kamahedru(sp?), the cow with astral and nature for luck/regen bless.
Further, how many nations' troops are good after serious battle magic/summons start kicking around?
Not many. Great nations have good expansion troops + good mages. Average nations have one or the other, and can easily use pretender design to cover the gap + usually offer something unique as an extra (freespawn, national spells, unusual pretender options, etc). The bad nations are ones that don't have good expansion troops but also don't have great mages to cover after expansion.
Good discussion. I was able to fight Kailasa pretty well in the early and middle game when I used Vanheim. IIRC what killed me was Ajidica's thugs and SCs which stormed my provinces like no body's business.
I think we lost before he ever had a chance to "thug" me.
Quote from: solops on March 02, 2020, 12:42:41 PM
I think we lost before he ever had a chance to "thug" me.
Yes but I was referring to a private game Ajidica and I played.
I hope you've brushed up on your anti-thug and anti-SC since then, since Shinuyama has a recruitable pseudo thug and access to summons that can thug/outright SC. Don't forget about forging demon banes when the time comes :)!
Agartha can thug too. Tien Chi only has the generic options but can still do that kind of thing late game. I can pseudo thug, but that's somewhat awkward for my nation.
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on March 02, 2020, 01:41:13 PM
I hope you've brushed up on your anti-thug and anti-SC since then, since Shinuyama has a recruitable pseudo thug and access to summons that can thug/outright SC. Don't forget about forging demon banes when the time comes :)!
Hush! Don't give him any ideas!
Quote from: solops on March 02, 2020, 12:42:41 PM
I think we lost before he ever had a chance to "thug" me.
I didn't go a thug route with Ermor in the war against Agartha. I had some earth-empowered mages to forge MR boosting gear, but against your horde of mind-blasting Olms that wouldn't have done me much good. I also chose Ermor as they didn't have a recruitable thug/SC chassis as the games I played with W8atminute I was Sauromatia (Witch Kings and Warrior Priestesses), Hinnom (Melquarts!), and as mentioned, Kailasa.
My cute little olms are harder to get this time :(
Is someone going on vacation for two weeks? Llamaserver says the next turn won't process until the 16th.
Quote from: Ajidica on March 03, 2020, 12:07:56 AM
Is someone going on vacation for two weeks? Llamaserver says the next turn won't process until the 16th.
I'm not planning any vacation but I did set the interval to a longer time period. Just being proactive in case there are any delays in getting our turns out. I still plan on submitting at least one or two turns a day if the turn around is there. ;)
A longer time is OK with me. From my limited experience it seems like a missed turn can mess the game up for everyone. I am usually on top of things, but occasionally I lose track of time or have some unexpected family crisis come up. Kids.
One of my concerns prior to start of last game the first time Ajidica invited me was that I wouldn't be able to keep up with fast-ish turn progress. At this point it's less of a concern for me, but I'm still okay with a slower pace.
Is there a method you guys use to ping you when we get sent a new turn? I'll probably want to rig such a notification so I don't miss it if we go a while between them.
How bad someone staling on a turn is depends on the context. Much more impactful to get caught unscripted in a big fight compared to missing a turn of movement but still having things on repeat recruitment for example.
I put a link to the game's Llamaserver status page in my favorites and on my Kindle. I had it as my home page for a while. Other than that, I check my e-mail every day or so. I have been online a lot lately, so that has helped.
Huh. I just forgot if I sent in the turn I did last night...OK, I'm in. Old.....
I usually get a notification on my phone that a new email has arrived but so far for this game I am not getting the notifications. I need to check my phone to figure out why.
I'll also check my computer at least once a day to see if I got the email or not.
Thanks all. I've marked llamaserver as an important sender and have rigged it to send me notifications when receiving emails from important senders with attachments.
Good idea. I'll think I'll do the same for my email settings.
Hmm, not sleeping properly. But at least I noticed this. I submitted turn and got confirmation from llamaserver on email, but it's still saying waiting for 2h on server status. I won't be able to submit until after work tomorrow, but I might need to re-submit if it's not counting it.
Edit: resubmitting before bed yesterday seems to have worked.
Something might have got broken with the mini-patch that rolled out this morning. I forgot to send in my orders for turn 18 last night and when I went to do it this morning I got a response from Llamaserver saying a valid 2h file was not found. I tried redoing my turn with the original turn file and then downloading a new one, but both times I got the same response saying a valid 2h was not found.
I wonder if W8aminute will have the same problem as he also has not submitted a turn.
Uh oh.
Apparently not. His turn seems to have gotten in ok.
Hey, all of you guys OK?
Yeah, waiting on next turn from Ajidica for a bit now. I will be out for a few hours tomorrow, but should be able to play 1-2 turns.
Turn coming in soon, sorry guys. Was out late last night and met up with some people after work tonight.
No problemo. Just having coronaphobia.
I seem to be having a problem receiving turn 40 from llamaserver. I've requested my turn be resent twice but nothing has arrived in my inbox. I might send the admin an email requesting a ticket be open for this. Has anyone else noticed anything strange with receiving their turns?
Not in this game. In our previous game a turn did not show, but I got it when I requested it. Keep trying and do the obvious ( junk mail box, spam, etc).
Quote from: W8taminute on March 26, 2020, 06:32:30 PM
I seem to be having a problem receiving turn 40 from llamaserver. I've requested my turn be resent twice but nothing has arrived in my inbox. I might send the admin an email requesting a ticket be open for this. Has anyone else noticed anything strange with receiving their turns?
Nope, but I just checked and Llamaserver says it is having an email server problem.
That said, this war with Agartha and Xibalba has been brutal! I hope I've put up a good fight at least!
Quote from: Ajidica on March 26, 2020, 10:42:31 PM
That said, this war with Agartha and Xibalba has been brutal! I hope I've put up a good fight at least!
More than a good fight. Every time an advance is ordered I expect something horrible and unexpected to happen.
I saw that message from Llamaserver as well after I posted. Well I guess we wait. I'll check again this evening to see if my turn got through.
My turn 40 resend request came through. Played the turn and submitted it but the server has not received it yet.
After a long, hard fight against the barbaric jungle-frogs and cave-slugs, the proud Bakemono of Shinuyama have given up in defeat. I set myself to go AI.
It was a good fight, and congrats to Agartha and Xibalba!
Yeah, it was rough considering it was 2v1. Neither of us had a good answer for flaming arrows for most of the war. Then when I finally did, you had earthquake and a monolith appearing in capital. Earthquake really screwed up the sabbath --> arrow fend + wind guide plan, shredding both hoburgs and blood slaves.
Given the circumstances, it was an economic war from the start, and that's an extremely difficult situation to defend with what you had available. Yet you still made it very difficult. Kudos for showing just how valuable practical experience can be against other players.
As always you are a worthy opponent Ajidica. Look forward to the next game!
Game update for those who might be following along.
Shinuyama (Ajidica) has been eliminated having lost their capital after a prolonged and bitter siege. Agartha (solops), Xibalba (TheMeInTeam), and Tien Chi (myself) remain.
A council was held by the remaining pretenders and all came to an agreement. This world can only have one pretender god and thus the rush for the thrones will be a free for all battle to the end. Agartha is currently the closest to victory with 4 of the necessary 6 points needed for a throne win followed by Xibalba at 3 points. Tien Chi has one point.
Who will win? In 5 turns the greatest war the realm has ever seen will begin where the existing non-aggression pacts will dissolve honorably.
May the best pretender win!
Reminder about timing:
- 3 way end NAP agreement on turn 48
- Hostile orders allowed turn 53
- Actual combat allowed turn 54
Marco Polo Bridge Incident
On July 7, 1937 a sneaking Xibalban army was caught trespassing on Tien Chi lands. Local forces discovered the sneaking marauders but were unable to stop the incursion. Our forces fought bravely and the province was lost.
The emperor of Tien Chi has decreed an immediate counter attack be launched and an example be made of the intruders. Below news reaches the district commanders troops who gleefully welcome the opportunity to exercise their might.
(https://time.graphics/uploadedFiles/500/97/c6/97c6950b45ecaa82e1db73556a5d1728.jpg)
What a boisterous crew! Oddly, Agartha also intercepted an army of 40 Xibalban infiltrators as well. We were able to route them, but the leader got away. A reply is being drafted.
I was trying to sneak into position, and was caught. A few things to note:
- Sneaking is not a hostile action, while issuing an attack order is a hostile action.
- If being caught sneaking is a valid reason to end a NAP, the nation of Xibalba has endured numerous transgressions, including an attack on its forces during the war with Shinuyama with numbers equal to this incident.
- Territory was offered in exchange for war on Agartha, but was not returned when this deal was reneged.
- Given the decree issued above, Xibalba moves to defend itself against open hostility!
Good luck all.
Hostile the orders on 53, here we go.
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on April 04, 2020, 04:10:51 PM
I was trying to sneak into position, and was caught. A few things to note:
- Sneaking is not a hostile action, while issuing an attack order is a hostile action.
- If being caught sneaking is a valid reason to end a NAP, the nation of Xibalba has endured numerous transgressions, including an attack on its forces during the war with Shinuyama with numbers equal to this incident.
- Territory was offered in exchange for war on Agartha, but was not returned when this deal was reneged.
- Given the decree issued above, Xibalba moves to defend itself against open hostility!
Good luck all.
Yes you are correct. Being caught sneaking is indeed not a valid reason to end an NAP. I was careful not to send forces into lands that were not mine.
However in light of my defenses losing their province to a legitimate sneak before general hostilities broke out I viewed a counterattack against what was rightfully Tien Chi's to be valid. After all if the intent of the sneak is to just position forces prior to war breaking out then land that is lost to the victim due to a sneak intercept can and should be retaken which doesn't necessarily mean a declaration of war needs to be made. As long as the attack is limited to regaining lost territory.
Sneaking forces in preparation for a surprise attack linked to formal declaration of war usually does not intend to take land before the war breaks out.
Too bad my counterattack got crushed! LOL
In any case war now begins as the worlds military forces issue their attack orders for the following turn.
Don't get me wrong, I feel no ill will. Just keeping up the role play arguing from the perspective of my nation haha.
^I know what you mean. I figured you were role playing but I figured I'd also help form some house rules for our next game. Dominions is a tough teacher but she is addictive. ;D
I think this game is pretty much over, but will keep playing if Xib and TC want to.
I do have a pretty significant lead after that throne battle, it will take time to consolidate after those losses so I can do some damage...though that's still gated by not being able to ignore Tien Chi either (this has been a bona fide 2v1 rather than a FFA, best I can tell).
I don't have the forces to win quickly. Absent straight up game throwing by opposition (like not contesting armies at all) I'd not expect to win in the next ~5-6 turns, because I need at least two thrones and all of them are guarded by forts. If you want to give up I'd understand, but I think everyone remaining in this game could benefit from some more practical combat experience against other players. Plus path boosting/site searching practice, if you're behind on it. I know you have a rainbow pretender for example, see if you can throw me off a few times by mixing in some non-earth magic for battles.
I wouldn't mind playing a couple more turns of this game. From my vantage point it looks like the game is not over yet but keep in mind I don't have spies near the throne areas.
I'd like to try a few more battles with Xib and I'm also planning on taking some of Agartha's lands too if I can. Want to test my strategy against those Agarthan hordes. At this point I'm not worried about who will win but rather getting some practice in with live opponents.
Let me know if you all truly want to quit now. We can make plans for another game. ;)
I prefer to continue and fight for now, but I'm open to beginning a new game concurrently as well.
I think Solops feels the game over because he lost his entire stack that was attempting to take the throne and win. t57 was very big for the outlook of the game, since if he won the game was over (simple throne claim --> win for Agartha). I managed to inflict ~900 casualties on that turn though. I didn't take many casualties in the two big fights, so I'm pressuring multiple forts right now and doing some raiding. I don't think it's impossible for a comeback but it would be a lot harder than previously.
That said, I'm quite some time from being capable of claiming multiple thrones. That implies going deep into Agartha's core territory or breaking the ~500 Tien Chi troops guarding our border throne while *also* capturing the fort he claimed off Shinuyama. I plan to fight and do this, but don't think it's realistic to expect it in 5 turns or so. So there should still be time for some real fighting.
Okay, charge! Re Agartha hordes - sorry to disappoint. There aren't any anymore. Your testbed will probably not materialize as you expect. I certainly cannot protect myself from Xib in a meaningful manner. I do have a question for Xib- do vampires fatigue when spellcasting?
Additional - Agartha has a great weakness in the expense and time it takes to build supported armies. I foolishly threw away my only two significant forces in a pair of well planned battles set up by Xib. I do not have the time or resources to create significant forces, particularly with both of you nibbling on my carcass. I may be able to spring a surprise or two, but that is a maybe. I have no counter to Xib's current force mix that I have a realistic chance of creating. And my R&D cannot help me as I have no way to implement new techs. I was particularly unfortunate in my mineral assets in critical areas. That made my battle losses extra egregious and difficult to replace. All that said, I am willing to continue. There are things to learn, however unpleasant the process may be.
Quote from: solops on April 15, 2020, 12:14:14 PM
Okay, charge! Re Agartha hordes - sorry to disappoint. There aren't any anymore. Your testbed will probably not materialize as you expect. I certainly cannot protect myself from Xib in a meaningful manner. I do have a question for Xib- do vampires fatigue when spellcasting?
You can produce new units. I will obviously be trying to limit this though.
Vampires do fatigue when spellcasting, yes. They are immune to rigor mortis but otherwise endure fatigue. I've done a few things to improve their fatigue consumption though:
- If you are higher path in magic than required, you get a fatigue discount. Vampires are D3 by default, so already get a discount on skeletons.
- In addition to skull staff, I put some reinvig items on some of the vampires, which means both discount and faster fatigue reduction. These can keep the skeleton train going indefinitely unless something interrupts it or the battle times out.
- Finally, the soul vortex spell damages surrounding targets and heals both HP and fatigue of the caster. So stuff near the vampire (or any death mage) can function as a battery for them. I haven't set it up this game, but it is possible to soul vortex units with their own natural regen set to guard commander.
Note that even w/o vampires, high level death is always obnoxious to fight against. Lichcraft for example creates a d4 mage for 30 gems, and liches have the same immortality that vampires get. Lich holding a skull staff can cast every meaningful combat death spell other than undead mastery. Vampires can cast nearly everything that way too, though sometimes need extra gems. But vampires get blood magic so they can sabbath into even top tier stuff or cast blood magic instead.
If you haven't site searched off-paths by now it would be pretty hard to handle the magic I have available, which is pretty much everything other than level 8/9 spells and astral stuff soon-ish (also some delay on fire, but I get 8 fire gems/month). I'm searching astral, but having none natively means that will mostly be confined to some forging or maybe making a couple golems if I get the right kind of summoned death mage with astral/earth to boost. If you take a pretender with wide paths you should definitely use it to break into those paths and produce mages that can cast buffs/evocations in them. I sacrificed that for top-tier scales, which means my bless was weak. My pretender is an imprisoned demilich with d4 b4, which is pretty useless aside from being cheap scales + making the vampires, but those two things are valuable enough since Xibalba has pretty good magic path coverage and boosting options natively.
Guys, real life has slowed me down. I will keep things going! Sorry for the delays. Blame the virus and the government.
No worries solops. Hope you can sort things out. We'll still be here when you're ready.
Well I think I've been bested in this game. I don't have too many provinces left and I've got nothing to stop thugs or assassins. I'm ready to throw in the towel.
Guys, sorry for the recent delays. I still have real world work hanging over me, but I am trying to catch up a bit today. Xibalba's position is unassailable. I will do as you two wish.
I do agree that my position is insurmountable at this point. This could have gone very differently with a few different choices by each side. Especially because until TC put one of Agartha's forts under siege recently, this was a de facto 2v1 against me :p. Which was the correct choice so long as instant game over from throne rush wasn't a risk to TC. I didn't realize he could see half of our score graphs all game!
IMO let's do a few more big battles and then you guys can either go AI or blitz the turns, I'm assaulting Agartha's throne province this turn. I am also attacking onto Tien Chi's throne province this turn, so if you want the game to end quickly you can patrol there to fight alongside PD (unless, of course, I lose that fight). I don't THINK I will lose, but there's a lot of stuff there and if I get something unexpected I could. That way if I win I can actually siege the fort. If those troops hide in the fort I'll eventually get it as defenders dwindle form troop upkeep defection, but it'll stall out the game a few more turns.
If left unimpeded I can claim last two thrones in 3-4 turns, TC's will probably be slower.
I'll go a bit more. It would be real nice if TC would leave my fort alone....
I'm up for a few more turns as well. I've got to keep up the pressure on that fort of yours Agartha! Meanwhile my empire is crumbling. lol
K.....feel free to change your mind if circumstances change :)
I'm almost dead but still hanging in there!
After this last turn I really don't see the point in continuing. Kudos to TheMeInTeam-Xibalba.
Yeah gg all. If you end this turn + next we can see full scoregraphs and end game stats. I don't think it's possible to block me claiming both thrones next turn now unless you want to break out some silly remote assassination spells and get comical luck on commander targeted :p.
Good game everyone. This was a challenging one for sure but demonstrated some key weaknesses and strengths of the nations involved.
Not sure what you mean by seeing the full scoregraphs and end game stats if we end the turn?
Once the game ends, you can see everyone's province count, military strength, income, forts, gem income, research, etc and watch a history of game progression.
Edit:
I just realized I made quite the blunder in math. I thought the iron throne was the one I'm claiming off Agartha this turn, but it isn't. So I won't win this turn. We can still call the game if you guys prefer...TC is functionally out of the game (three provinces left, cap + one other down next turn). At this point I can just brute force Agartha with economy + bring stuff that took Amul over to Agartha, creating a 4 way attack. But getting the last throne will take several more turns...I only have two H3 units who can claim. I'm summoning another, but it can only move at province/turn and must be summoned in water. I am of course willing to play it out, but this has already run past the point where the outcome is in doubt, so we could also just stop here if you guys prefer.
One the bright side, the failed thug attack on the capital of Tien Chi took advantage of the battle timer rules nicely, "killing" a lot of things via retreat that it had no realistic hope of killing otherwise.
None of us played 100% to nation strength. Ajidica was probably the closest. As the game has drawn on, a number of things have occurred to me that could have changed the game substantially:
- Shinuyama summoning bakeneko to use mage turns to research or cast dark knowledge, and using nature random Ubas to cast foul vapor traps against big armies.
- Early in the fight against Tien Chi I raided a lot. Phoenix could have killed both raiding parties or the frog thugs by spamming tbolt or tramping water elementals, after cloud trapeze into them (magic phase attack precedes normal movement).
- Speaking of which, Agartha had a magic site allowing for A2 mages, which would have been strong against both Shinuyama and me (air elementals, arrow fend/wind guide, even burning air gems to cast tstrike in critical fights). That these can magic phase attack is non-trivial.
- Agartha also did have access to astral --> soul slay for vampires via a throne province :(. E2 S2 also means you can forge matrix items for making non-astral mages parts of a communion, which combined with the above would open up spells like fog warriors, mass flight, will of fates, mass protection (on any nature random), relief (vs rigor mortis), etc.
- I had access to foul vapors and mass protection way earlier than I actually used them (Tien Chi can also cast these natively). Imagine if rather than empowering to regen and making all that gear if I had just thrown a N2 frog mage into the Shinuyama stack that was in my territory to cast foul vapors! He'd have been chopped up, but that happened anyway. The poison would have been pretty rough on the army though...similar to the earthquake trap he later sprung on me.
- Pretty much only Agartha used elementals a lot, and the rest of us could have benefitted from the in-battle summon versions more.
- Speaking of communions, the E1 S1 mages in Tien Chi can be really strong late game. They can spam gits from heaven, but they can also communion all the way up to master enslave (this is expensive and probably too late game given the bad start this time, but devastating). Alternatively, they can cast summon earth power + power of spheres for +2 earth, give a communion master earth boots, and then cast living earth repeatedly. Each level of earth > 4 adds another elemental per cast, still costing only 2 earth gems. So even with 4 communion slaves you'd be producing 6 size 4 earth elementals per cast.
That's nowhere near an exhaustive list. Dominions is a deep game. I'm sure we'll all be at least a step better in the next one!
Let's end it. Re soul slay- never heard of it or its effects. This is an example of the greatest weakness of noobs and what makes the game fun - it has lots of stuff! I had an lot of buffs available that I do not understand re their stacking effects. I mean I know what they ARE, but what are the practical effects? Ironskin + Temper Flesh is just one example. Then throw in something like Invulnerability. At what point am I wasting a scripting step? This is just one of many examples. We need a "character testbed" like the pretender constructor to help answer these questions.
I'm suiciding my army. We can end it now.
I had ordered my army back, not to dodge yours but because I needed a lot of items to supply it. I'm going for a double throne push, but if you want to go AI that's fine too. I want to see end game score graphs.
Soul slay is an MR check spell, but nothing is ever completely immune via MR (some things that lack souls are immune though). It's one of a few ways to just give a middle finger to thugs/supercombatants. Probably the strongest spells for that purpose are the banishment spells in blood 9 (infernal prison and the water version). Both of these have no MR check, no resist. Just go to hell (literally), and then appear back after like a year in a random province (which can be water), but only it survives numerous astral horrors attacking it first. And of course if it's a land unit that pops out in the water, it STILL dies. Pretty much ends SCs as a viable tactic, but blood 9 takes ages to research and few nations get the paths naturally.
Going AI
Game is officially concluded, here are the score graphs:
- https://i.imgur.com/dmCsaDV.jpg
- https://i.imgur.com/NKZEOPh.jpg
- https://i.imgur.com/0q2OclL.jpg
- https://i.imgur.com/Ni8fg8N.jpg
- https://i.imgur.com/ErAsqaS.jpg
- https://i.imgur.com/ZJadAgJ.jpg
- https://i.imgur.com/6ezzCCE.jpg
If anyone's interested in getting a new game going, I think I've learned enough about Dom that I feel confident getting my ass handed to me by real people online. 8)
I might be interested. We have a real mix of MP experience and competence here. There are several players that make me feel inadequate. They make great teachers. My problem is that I am a wargamer and my ignorance of the magic system's possibilities has proven catastrophic more than once. Great stuff! I have some real world issues going on that slow me down, but I might be up for a game, particularly if we can get 5+.
I'd be interested in another. I might be able to convince my friend this time, but can't make any promises regarding that.
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on May 02, 2020, 02:27:39 PM
Game is officially concluded, here are the score graphs:
- https://i.imgur.com/dmCsaDV.jpg
- https://i.imgur.com/NKZEOPh.jpg
- https://i.imgur.com/0q2OclL.jpg
- https://i.imgur.com/Ni8fg8N.jpg
- https://i.imgur.com/ErAsqaS.jpg
- https://i.imgur.com/ZJadAgJ.jpg
- https://i.imgur.com/6ezzCCE.jpg
Thanks for the score graphs! Looks like they confirm my suspicions about the game - I was slow on forts and site searching which really hurt me long term.
I'm definitely down for a new game. Might need to play a bless faction this time around as I've played a lot of scales builds lately. (Don't worry, I'm not going to play Ashdod. You all are safe from memeblessed Anakites!)
"Memblessed Anakites"... another thing I am clueless about :)
Very interesting endgame graphs. I'm pleased to see my research kept up with the crowd for a while before I fell behind. There is a point on the graph that I can attribute to my switching from recruiting research monkeys to trying to assemble battle mages. I never was able to get forts up and running fast enough due to my pretender god dying on turn one in a foolish land grab attempt.
That was a great game and well played by all. We have a good group of guys here each with varying degrees of knowledge of the game. I think we all learned something here. I'm up for another game and I'm glad to see al_infierno expressing interest in joining. Should be good.
Let me know who wants to start another game and I'll host. For now I'm declaring this current game concluded on llamaserver.
What era?
Quote from: solops on May 03, 2020, 03:53:06 PM
"Memblessed Anakites"... another thing I am clueless about :)
A memebless is a term used for when a player goes all in on the bless trashing all their scales, relying on the strength of their sacreds to make their early game position so strong it balances out their terrible economy. An example for Ashdod would be (in the old days before it was changed in a patch) going Quickness, Fire and Shock Resistance, and Blood Bond. Of course, even that has nothing on the Dom4 days where a pretender didn't need to be incarnate for the big blesses, so you would often have Vanjarls packing Blood Bond, Regenerate, and Reinvigoration with passable scales.
As far as era, I'm been practicing for MA, but I'm flexible. I'll put out my nation picks now for each era.
EA: Lanka
MA: Mictlan
LA: I'm less familiar with this age, But Man, Ulm, Marignon, or Atlantis.
I also mainly play MA, but I'm up for whatever era.
Here's my latest pick for each era (5/5/2020):
EA: C'Tis
MA: C'Tis
LA: C'Tis
TOTALLY won't be a meme bless on Mictlan :D.
My pick will somewhat depend on map played. If we're doing a random map or something I might pick a water nation, but water nations are outright broken on Biddyn for example (as in, they can spawn 2 provinces from multiple opposing capitals and have no real expansion options).
Maybe I'll do R'lyeh. Though if we go LA they're a cancer nation and something else might be better.
EA or MA I'll try Agartha.
Again.
I'm up for another MA game. Not sure who I'll pick this time. Need to think about it.
Clarify-willing to play LA, but I know nothing about it. Probably like EA best, but I am happy with any age!
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on May 04, 2020, 04:01:01 AM
TOTALLY won't be a meme bless on Mictlan :D.
MA Mictlan doesn't have blood until the very late game, so I can't go quite as memebless as EA or LA Mictlan who can lean heavily on Ozelotl.
QuoteMy pick will somewhat depend on map played. If we're doing a random map or something I might pick a water nation, but water nations are outright broken on Biddyn for example (as in, they can spawn 2 provinces from multiple opposing capitals and have no real expansion options).
I'd be down for a different map, if we can figure out how to use a custom map with Llamaserver and if someone wants to make sure the start positions are vaguely balanced. The Dom5 map generator is much better than the Dom4 one, but still creates terrible start locations far too often to be reliable.
@Solops: Oh god, not more Agartha! You trying to traumatize me here?
The big thing with LA is that magic paths are much lower, forcing a greater reliance on breaking into new paths, forging, and pretender paths. These are all things that TheMeInTeam showed he is pretty good at last game. LA also has tougher indies which makes expansion more difficult. On the flip side, provinces are better so income and blood slaves are higher.
My one-eyed noble folk are 0 of 2. No reason to be apprehensive.
Quote from: solops on May 04, 2020, 04:02:50 PM
My one-eyed noble folk are 0 of 2. No reason to be apprehensive.
The Germans haven't won any world wars, still no reason to trust them with Panzers!
I played around with the Dom5 map generator a couple of months ago and after a number of tries got a few maps I liked. But, the game kept putting me right on the map edge. There is a third party generator that allowed editing of the map and I was able to mark individual areas as "do not start here." Someone who knows more about it might be able to take a map custom sized for our player count and fix it with a dozen good starting spots....maybe? Wish I knew more about it.
Actually, if we're doing EA or MA, I changed my mind and decided I'd like to play the monkey bois (Kailasa & Bandar Log) if nobody's claimed them :coolsmiley:
My picks for EA LA stay the same.
On second (or third or whatever) thought, for my first online game I'll go with somebody with better priests. My latest and hopefully final picks, if these are avilable:
OK, third time's a charm. I decided I'mma just go with C'Tis no matter what age we go with, since they're my most-played nation. 8)
EA: C'Tis
MA: C'Tis
LA: C'Tis
Also, has anybody tried taking Ind online yet? After watching DasTactic's series on them, I played them for a game and fell in love with the bizarro playstyle. Definitely wouldn't want to try 'em online for my first game. :buck2:
They seem like the perfect faction for a memebless playthrough.
Quote from: Ajidica on May 04, 2020, 07:14:04 PM
Quote from: solops on May 04, 2020, 04:02:50 PM
My one-eyed noble folk are 0 of 2. No reason to be apprehensive.
The Germans haven't won any world wars, still no reason to trust them with Panzers!
Also, underrated exchange. :2funny:
I've seen a wide range of opinion on how to approach Ind even from good players, it's an interesting nation. I'm inclined to agree they're probably best as scales.
I'm starting to lean towards taking Eriu out for a spin, but I need a lot more practice with them. Also considering Machaka.
Quote
The big thing with LA is that magic paths are much lower, forcing a greater reliance on breaking into new paths, forging, and pretender paths. These are all things that TheMeInTeam showed he is pretty good at last game. LA also has tougher indies which makes expansion more difficult. On the flip side, provinces are better so income and blood slaves are higher.
Heh, towards the end of the game I had the 3 elemental queens, a faerie queen, and had one of the fire kings up after everyone went AI in final turns before claiming throne. I made too many dwarven hammers unfortunately, otherwise I could have pushed up earth and had all of earth blood deep well, maelstrom, well of misery, mother oak, and vengeful water going (other than EBDW I did get all the others). I think everyone else took more base dominion candles than me though, I could keep dominion in my own provinces but pushing it was pretty slow.
LA is also the most communion/sabbath heavy age. I thought blood slaves scale with site search probability and thus that offset the higher pop of LA somewhat? Still, LA has a several high end blood nations and several more that start with reasonable access. MA has the least emphasis on blood, and it's true that includes Mictlan. Mictlan has pretty nice native path access though. Breaking into death is easy for them, so it's really just earth and blood missing.
QuoteThe Germans haven't won any world wars, still no reason to trust them with Panzers!
Yeah, fighting Agartha's troops/summons is a pain even w/o path diversity from them. It performs kind of badly in LA, but in EA and MA it's a top 5 pick and winrate nation. Huge prot + good damage doesn't have a lot of bad matchups, especially not with earth buffs and national summons that just ignore morale, multiple elements, and throw around a damage type Agartha doesn't otherwise have much. I needed multiple level 7 branches to deal with that stuff.
Still, I'd rather see Agartha again than someone using Ermor, Sceleria, or Pangaea at a high level in MA.
And yet, I managed to lose twice! It must be a skill thing .... hmmmm.
QuoteBreaking into death is easy for them, so it's really just earth and blood missing.
MA Mictlan still has access to the EA/LA Mictlan blood spells, which include summonable blood mages. Need to decide if putting blood points on my pretender would be worth some economy scales.
Quote from: Ajidica on May 04, 2020, 07:14:04 PM
Quote from: solops on May 04, 2020, 04:02:50 PM
My one-eyed noble folk are 0 of 2. No reason to be apprehensive.
The Germans haven't won any world wars, still no reason to trust them with Panzers!
Ha! Nice one.
Quote from: Ajidica on May 05, 2020, 04:55:44 PM
QuoteBreaking into death is easy for them, so it's really just earth and blood missing.
MA Mictlan still has access to the EA/LA Mictlan blood spells, which include summonable blood mages. Need to decide if putting blood points on my pretender would be worth some economy scales.
Yeah it's a tough choice. Especially because if you want to put that blood path to work before mid game, you don't want to go imprisoned which will remove even more scales/limit other options.
I'm not sure what I'd do with MA Mictlan either. Blood is nice, but they can go a very long way with a scales setup with a small bless too. They still break into blood guaranteed late game and some of their astral/nature options in the late game are really brutal. It's always hard to pick when you can do so many different things but they require heavy investment of research into different schools of magic.
Map size effects game length effects pretender design.