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Yokai! -- wait, wrong language. Whatever "okay" means in Russian!

With Bart 30 days busy on other things (spring/summer/Stellaris/having a wife/having a life)  >:D , and with me having practically no idea how I'd survive another month in the game, we've decided to call an early end to our duel on DECISIVE CAMPAIGNS 3: BARBAROSSA, which we've been playing since very soon after initial release. Among other things, now I can safely uninstall the game for a Steam install!  :D

We can also now read each other's threads (beyond the point where we said we had to leave for security sake), and since commenting on our own and each other's past actions might be interesting, along with reader commentary, I've created a new thread for that joint commentary. To which I'd post a link, but it's here, ta daaaa!  ::) O:-)

It may take a little while before we start doing commentary, this still being Memorial Day weekend 2016, but readers are welcome to start any time.

Memorial Day (tomorrow) is usually about remembering fallen United States veterans -- at least when it's our Memorial Day, duh ;) -- but everyone has their own, and I think it's worth remembering that so many other people made such awful sacrifices in the worst possible situations for us to live in a world where, for example, our faces aren't being stomped by a boot forever. Or not a Nazi boot anyway; but the Russian people had to make do with what they had -- and they not only had to deal with the real-life Barbarossa, but had to do it, and everything afterward, under the heel of a tyrant who personally authorized as many deaths of as many Russians as Hitler. 20 million Russians dead to Hitler; 20 million dead to Stalin (before, during, and after the Great Patriotic War), and somehow the Russian people lurched through it into today, as shattered as they still may be.

But because they won, we all could win; even the Germans, eventually, since as a great movie recently put it, it's important to remember that the first country the Nazis conquered -- was their own.

I hope and pray we can all be friends and allies someday in a world at peace under the rule of true justice, true fair-togetherness between people, and war is only a chivalrous sport we play together for skill and honor sometimes. In big and small ways, all our veterans in all our wars have contributed, sometimes by losing, toward that undiscovered country.

Anyway, since my signature will someday move along from links to either side of the game, here they are archived for convenience in reading along with commenting:

Bart's side here: http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=15513.0

My side here: http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=15498.0

Great write up Jason.  O0

I was up until 2 am reading it... very tired today at work.  :P

Great fun reading your ups and downs and how they meshed, or didn't, with mine. I really had no idea how your SuperPower worked... I though you were getting all these extra troops with it. Because it just seemed that they would come out of nowhere as I was trying to make headway.... just popping out of the damn soil in front of me.

The Marsh-mellow Pocket: All that was protecting the north face of that pocket was the 4th Army that had been on Blitzkrieg mode since the start of the war and were starting to get severely fatigued from no rest. If you had pushed north instead of continuing west to Breast you would have caused a great delay in my plans. But those poor bedraggled 4th Army troops held on to the pocket neck with every last bit of their strength... in fact you completely shatter one division there in your push to relieve the pocket.

Then further north when you tried to dash along the front separator line to cut off Army Group North... just as I was preparing to push 2nd and 3rd Panzer Groups East along the same line. Then I brought 4th PG down across the Front line, had to pay a bunch of PP to use a card to make that happen, to cut off your thrust. Those 3 turns are what setup my Super Pocket plan.... Moscow was never the plan. By then Hitler had ordered me to take Rostov, which he had changed from it being Leningrad... to which he eventually changed it back to Leningrad!

Running the Germans is difficult as you need to keep up the pressure and tempo all the while needing to rest and recoup your own troops. It's becomes a hard juggling act to know when to pause so the enemy won't just lurch forward and crush you at rest. The big Central Front Wall you built had me really worried... I needed to rest all my AGC troops and fixe tanks etc. and then more and more and MORE Russian troops starting showing up at the Orsha-Gormel line... I kept cringing every time I opened a turn expecting to see that wave come washing across the river.

Finland: I only received permission to cross the border on the last (surrender) turn. The German Div up there was under the same orders as the Finns... which I found out when they crossed the border up north trying to starve out the last 2 Div you had up there. Cost me 10PP for that mistake.
Then I did it again at Leningrad... seeing you move most of the garrison to Tallinn fight, I lunged across the border to try and take Leningrad like I did at Riga... only to fail and get nailed with more penalties. Read my log you'll see how low on PP's I was getting and still having to make all those decisions that require PPs or you get crappy results.

Kursk-Kharkov Line: Again I had a plan, once I was told to take Rostov, to swing 1st PG and 11th Army south and drive straight at Rostov. But first I had to get 17th Army, which had been held up fighting around Lvov, to get into place to guard the northern flank and get the Romanians to guard the southern flank. And also rest and refit 1st PG. And again the massive wall of conscripts sprouts from the very soil I need to take.  >:( :o
So I put a lot of hope in the that the action in the Central Front would draw off troops and attention while things were setup for the push to Rostov.... only to be told by the Corporal that Leningrad was again the prize....  :idiot2:

Again sorry I dragged this out so much. Time seemed get used up so fast and I needed to commit at least 1 hour to play the turn and then an hour or so to write it up. And now summer is here so most of my focus gets shift to outside and Honey Doo lists.

So thanks for the game. It was a lot of fun and I had no idea I was that close to collapsing your army.... to me it just seemed an endless supply of enemy on a vast endless plain....with mud and snow coming....

More comments no doubt coming from me later -- I had to stop reading through your side of things last night early, before you had even made the first turn (still making initial strategy choices), so I'm waaaaaayyy behind in checking your side of things.

Re the swamp pocket and the massive Central wall (ultimately connected topics), the reason I didn't push north into your battered 4th Army, was first because to me they didn't look so battered, and second because I reaaalllly didn't want to be fighting against you in a swamp (that having been disastrous when I was on defense earlier and this time you'd be on defense), but third and mostly because I had no confidence that my two or three armies concentrated could deal with those scattered divisions.  :P :tickedoff: It's hard to overestimate just how timid and frustrated I got about trying a counterattack, although partly that was because I didn't get a better understanding of how stacks worked until fairly late in the game. As far as I was concerned, my best bet was just to create a safe corridor to hold back your ravening scattered horde of exhausted divisions ;) , while I ran troops back to Brest to screw over your central supply line. (I don't think I ever thought your goal was to take Moscow; even toward the end I decided I didn't really care if you took it, since odds weren't good that you had chosen it to begin with.)

Only then, and then only after a couple of weeks hurting from that loss, would I have felt safe trying to push the Vol Wall to roll over you in a Crimson Tide (yay college football!) But I made the mistake of not assigning tank divisions to run independently back west along the road, until it was too late.

Trying to use portions of the north side of the Central Wall to smash your North Theater supply line, though chancier in my estimation, turned out to be the beginning of the end as a fatal gamble: it opened too much of a hole for you to wrap north back up around my central defenders, and once you could cut off their supply, that was that. Note that even with all my strength up there -- and those were entirely regular army units, not conscripts -- I just lacked the pure strength to push even a few divisions far enough out of their way to trap your own encirclement out of supply for more than I think maybe one turn. Again, it's hard to overestimate just how utterly weak the Soviet forces are in this game; which is by design of course.

I could have survived the loss of my swamp road armies, probably, had I not opened up that northern hole; which in turn ended up cutting off supplies for the rescuers just when I was finally in range to get some help to the swamp road. I'm honestly surprised the swamp road divisions held on as long as they did: even at the end, when the north and central sections of the wall COMPLETELY VAPORIZED due to lack of supply (that hadn't happened yet when I decided on the surrender, but I knew it was coming in only another turn or two), I think I still had a handful of divisions alive on the swamp road.

It was an amazing game, and I'll probably have more to say later this week or next weekend once I take better stock of my game in hindsight and yours as revealed. Thanks muchly for the game!  O:-)

I certainly enjoyed following each DAR, in parallel. Would need to read through them both again to have an intelligent comment here though. Kudos for both of you guys for writing them with the detail you did. Had a few laughs as well.  O0

Seems DC3 Barbarossa indeed managed in putting together a manageable sized Barbarossa game.   :)

It is both manageable and as reasonably fun and challenging as stomping / being-stomped-as Russia During Barbarossa could feasibly be.

One of these days when I write up a proper AAR for my AAR (with knowledge now from Barth's side), I'm sure a main theme will be the need to resist any notion of trying to fight back.  :P The Soviet side absolutely must reconcile to a controlled implosion, and not a very controlled one at that.

Fighting back is what DC2 is for.  :knuppel2:

I will add, while I'm here and thinking of it, that I was surprised how useless and kind of chintzy the game's own post-game analysis was. Bart mentions it upthread I think, but he doesn't quote from it, and for good reason.

The only thing I learned from it, which by the way also relates to a crucial game metric that the game isn't (or wasn't?) coded to properly show while we were playing, was how many enemy divisions I ended up destroying. I was pretty sure I had destroyed one; Bart confirmed that (on the road to relieve the swamp armies). The game said I had in fact destroyed 2 at some time.

But damned if it's going to tell me any more than that, other than they were in the Central Theater. And even then the pauce information it gives seems worse than useless.

QuoteGerman units killed

Northern Front 0 (0% of total)
Central Front 2 (100% of total)
Southern Front 0 (0% of total)

So, what does x% of total mean?? The normal expectation would be that killing Z units would be a fractional X% of the total. But there were God knows how many more German units on the Central Front than 2!!

Quote from: Barthheart on May 30, 2016, 10:07:26 AM
The Marsh-mellow Pocket: All that was protecting the north face of that pocket was the 4th Army that had been on Blitzkrieg mode since the start of the war and were starting to get severely fatigued from no rest. If you had pushed north instead of continuing west to Breast

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.makeagif.com%2Fmedia%2F8-18-2014%2FoR95_a.gif&hash=7e10ca6fd2b0d87a8644e5689b3ff7f884bb7d87)

Ha!! -- I didn't catch that the first (or second or third) time!

I still haven't done a fuller post-mortem. Note to self.

Quote from: JasonPratt on June 28, 2016, 08:07:35 AM
Ha!! -- I didn't catch that the first (or second or third) time!

I still haven't done a fuller post-mortem. Note to self.

Waiting..... :knuppel2: I need something to read during my many long waits at airports next week. :idiot2:

It's a long weekend; I may get around to it yet!

I enjoyed the AAR.  Read it all at once after it was finished.

Badly belated, but well-done, gentlemen!  This has helped me on my decision about whether to take the plunge and buy this title or not!

Learn from my mistakes. LEARN THEM!

...


.........


... oh. Wait, I haven't written my post-mortem yet.  #:-)

Well. Well well. Well well well...

QuoteFatigue. It turns out that, while fatigue is only accumulated while slow Divisions are set to a Blitzkrieg posture (correct), it also only applies while in the Blitzkrieg posture (incorrect). If you switch to Sustained Offensive or Defensive postures your slouching, weary, soldaten suddenly spark up and look a lot more alert than they should. Fixed.

Essentially, the German player up until literally today, could totally and instantly eliminate all fatigue by switching a division off Blitzkrieg stance.

I shall conven^H^H^H^H^H^Hprovisionally consider this a contributing factor for my loss.  ^-^

Clearly time for a re-do.
Just to keep it fair, why not switch sides?

Quote from: JasonPratt on March 09, 2017, 04:15:10 PM
Well. Well well. Well well well...

QuoteFatigue. It turns out that, while fatigue is only accumulated while slow Divisions are set to a Blitzkrieg posture (correct), it also only applies while in the Blitzkrieg posture (incorrect). If you switch to Sustained Offensive or Defensive postures your slouching, weary, soldaten suddenly spark up and look a lot more alert than they should. Fixed.

Essentially, the German player up until literally today, could totally and instantly eliminate all fatigue by switching a division off Blitzkrieg stance.

I shall conven^H^H^H^H^H^Hprovisionally consider this a contributing factor for my loss.  ^-^

Well... that's kind of interesting.... except that the only time I switch out of Blitzkrieg mode was when I also set the army to rest mode which eliminates the fatigue anyway.  :-"

AND you still haven't written that post-mortem.....   ;)

Quote from: besilarius on March 09, 2017, 06:25:31 PM
Clearly time for a re-do.
Just to keep it fair, why not switch sides?

With summer approaching my PC gaming times drops a lot so maybe in the fall we could try again.
A lot has changed since we played the game it will be like learning it all over again....  :hide:

I really wouldn't mind swinging with the Soviets again. While I haven't written up the notes yet (soon?) I've thought over my key problems several times, some of which were simply not understanding better how the system works.

Let us now consider the post-mortem of my demise. I shall be avoiding at least one factor since its adjustment might be crucial to a forthcoming rematch with Bartheart this August-ish.


-1.) The Germans instantly lost all fatigue once they ever switched over from Blitzkrieg stance. Barth says he only ever did this when he was stopping to rest anyway, but of course this would have meant that he didn't have to rest quite as long. I don't really think this had a bearing on my loss though, considering other factors, and also considering that most of the time when he stopped it was for reorganization purposes which would have given him the equivalent time to rest -- no doubt including times he re-org'd out of Blitz stance. I'm including it as a completionist, but I'm consequently putting it at negative one on the list.


0.) To quote my joke from Turn 0 Round TURN One:

Quote from: http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=15498.msg405463#msg405463Consequently, if I lose, I shall blame this "Vance" person. This is only reasonable.

Barth just outplayed me. Not something I can fix or improve in my game, so while I'm including it for completion I'm putting it as zero on the list.


1.) I think my single most fundamental and repeated mistake, as I've mentioned before, was trying to fight back. The Soviets must be resigned to a controlled implosion, with the further understanding that due to activation problems there cannot be much control to the implosion. Those activation problems obviously hamper attempts at attacks, too; but so many other things hamper attacks that even when I occasionally didn't have activation problems I shouldn't have been trying to counter-attack.

Relatedly, I shouldn't have been trying to even counter-blitz maneuver, even if (as on the swamp road, or the thrust across front boundaries between central and north) I didn't have any intention of attacking. Not as long as I was having activation problems, and not unless I could keep a defensive supply corridor intact for the thrust. Intact against the massive German attack advantages, remember!

Basically, trying to be awesome before Case Blue gets all of Russia killed. And Case Blue is another game.


2.) Somewhat related to Factor One, and jockeying hard for the position of strongest downfall factor: I absolutely failed to understand the stacking rules. Not until around (what turned out to be) the final 1/3 of the game. As terribly underpowered as the Soviet military already is except in terms of sheer number, the temptation to bunch up in sheer numbers to play to our only major strength must be avoided. While it does give a stack more hitpoints, so to speak, it also reduces our armor and gives the enemy more chances to hit, so to speak. I consistently and persistently failed to appreciate this factor, giving Barth an-even-more-much-easier time than he would have had otherwise.

That this failure might also be historical verisimilitude does not make me feel better about it.


3.) This is one of the secret factors I'm holding back to adjust for the next match someday. (Also, I'm not sure yet how best to adjust it.)


These could be considered strategic factors, in that they applied across the game and across the map.


Operational errors next, roughly in chronological order. I won't be always going into details since I don't want to give away too many things I could do differently next time.


(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F908%2F3JIzId.png&hash=2b7f4f06a3dc0f109221b3268b702c313ec72f0a)

4.) Look up toward Riga (the red dot about center map, top, on the Baltic coast), and then northwest of that. Those divisions are deployed to resist a naval invasion that was never, ever going to happen. I did the right thing by trying to pull them off the coast, but it I did it the wrong way(s). Ultimately, and combined with another serious error in trying to resist harder at the points of contact, led to me taking a foolish risk that Barth's ultra-mechanized army wouldn't have a single mechanized division in range to seize Riga for one turn. And he seized Riga that turn. Much of the collapse of the main North Front line revolves around my mistakes here. Starting with the move represented by this snapshot:

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F908%2FJVYqqV.png&hash=3aaa051464aaf8e78f7d73c0cae5cd4a3aa85bbd)


5.) The first screenshot (refer back up-post) also happens to show the opening disposition of nearly the whole Center Front, too (after Barth's opening Turn -- I couldn't actually do much on my opening Turn, due to game design). Find the Front HQ slightly north of the far-right map side, then trace the main double-rail line southwest to my divisions along the rail system. I rushed those divisions into meeting the Germans, and got them progressively annihilated.

The dilemma is a cruel one (which of course is the game, and the challenge, for a Soviet player during Barbarossa). Soviet troops are like paper people this early in the war, with hideous defensive debuffs to boot, and with their only buffs being on the attack. But a 20% attack bonus to paper people makes them cardboard people!

You can see them again, for reference, at the top of this next snapshot, which is mostly dedicated to considering opening mistakes in the north of South Front.


(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F907%2Fn48yaT.png&hash=56ac48b5691a4f105d4723cd4b41bc22ebb1aa53)

My basic mistake here was trying to rush troops who can't rush anywhere, up to defend against much stronger troops while I'm still suffering crippling defensive maluses, and then trying to overcome these problems by clustering into superstacks, which only made pocket attempts easier plus opening me up to defensive superstack weaknesses (see Strategic Mistake 3). Not much more to say really, other than that I don't think I should have devoted my scant political points to activating a main garrison at Lvov.


(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F911%2FbiZ1Gx.png&hash=b780d14e32ff4c02f7a24e4c73ca141c57d7f2e4)

6.) Here at the bottom of South Front, I made the crucial but understandable mistake that I should be able to hold out against Romanians and Luftwaffe infantry divisions at least! -- who were crossing a river no less! So I wasn't trying to withdraw my troops, I was abandoning my defense of Odessa behind another river as fast as I could (not very fast due to activation problems) in order to strengthen the line to hold.

Also, in a baffling underestimation of the competency of the map/scenario designers, I wasted time testing to see if I could cross the mountains behind the enemy line. I'll have much better uses for those troops much more quickly next time.

That said, with all the problems here, this sector held its basic shape the longest, partly because after all I was only fighting baby Nazis here, and partly because I didn't have the wherewithal to make the same mistakes to the same extent as elsewhere.


I didn't make serious operational errors in the North and Center for a while, other than super-stacking my central divisions too much while pulling them back (but at least I was trying to pull them back). So the next big error comes in the South again:

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F903%2FRGTXiU.png&hash=57202e24e391c14a34e6e394566fdb7fc2b9db10)

7.) Keeping in mind, in my defense, my movement activations sucked, I still should have been taking what small moves I could to shift over toward Odessa. The Romanians(!) were about to cross the river south of me here (!!). Which he accomplished the next turn through mud by the way (!!!). With infantry (!!!!). Through at least one of my zones of control (!!!!!). You can see why I thought I had one more turn, and I'm not convinced there wasn't a bug involved since Bart doesn't seem to have used any special Germany button powers at any time including here. But I still should have been moving the defensive line into and around Odessa sooner, as far as I could move anything (which was at least a little -- and sufficient to put something there I think.)

I guess while I'm at it:

8.) Trying to pull my divisions back into the mountains while also crossing a river, would have been highly difficult even with perfect activations. And highly retarded under the circumstances.


My next major operational blunder, which was connected to the strategic mistake of (1) trying to counter-blitz; and (2) trying to counter-attack, can be illustrated here:

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F908%2FXyKkGG.png&hash=f6cf5897e9ccb4a01fed071b13cc75136a5d8822)

Well, that doesn't look too bad, right? Sure, not this turn. But I should never have been that far forward of the Polotsk / Vitebsk river line. Or forward of that line at all. I should have been bothered that I didn't have a river between Vitebsk and Orsha to hide behind. Instead I'm spreading out my defensive line (though at least I'm barely superstacking now), which will soon create a rip on my right flank (map left) when I try to surge for his North Front supply line again (NO, BAD SOVIETS, NO COUNTER-BLITZING), and that rip will be what Barth eventually drives through and around to pocket my whole Soviet Wall.

I am not exaggerating when I say I lost the game with the evaporation of that wall; which I fatally exposed; starting on this turn; exactly here with this move. I might have lost the game anyway, but this exact move is a major contender for how I did lose the game. It wasn't a move I had to make or face loss more quickly. I made the move right down the throat of my major strategic mistakes.

Even if I hadn't ripped open a hole lunging for his supply soon afterward, I still should not have been counter-attacking past the river line there.


Speaking of counter-blitzing:

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F910%2FUMWBPU.png&hash=09eb6d698b034fadae5ae85b7c13fd4b06d0a1ec)

9.) While in theory setting up a counterthrust opportunity operation back across the Pripayet swamp road was a fair idea (arguably my best in this game), I can see major operational errors here. Superstacks. My few armored divs aren't pushed forward enough yet. The HQs supporting them aren't pushed forward enough yet. Their supply line back to Gomel is one thousand percent vulnerable, and the only way I had to close it in time was to pull my swamp road forces back (which I'll try too late). The 40th and 57th Infantry divisions actually got off the dang road into the swamp! (Where they helped a lot, but still.)

You could also put it this way: my operational error here started a few turns previously when I opportunistically plopped my new Army HQs too far forward along the swamp road. What eventually kills the counter-thrust (which could have won me the game) is the severing of the road. If I couldn't keep the thrust supplied, I shouldn't have risked it. Sure, I was desperately hoping he had simply ignored the road, but that was stupid of me.

And no, moving that new Army Superstack northwest of Gomel wouldn't have better been put to keeping the swamp road open: I was about to have my central wall's left flank turned by some panzers and mech divisions. What would have been better was to keep my swamp road armies on a shorter leash to begin with, poised to exploit if possible. The very threat of a supplied counter-thrust would have tied up German divisions, in a swamp no less. As it is, Barth could pocket them with relatively minor numbers and weakened divisions, and keep them bottled in that way. It doesn't matter how strong those armies are in men and tanks if they have no bullets, shells, food, and fuel.


Hey, here's where the failure of the northern sector of North Front happened! -- or the snapshot is endemic of it anyway.

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F905%2FN0DzoO.png&hash=f54bf4bee6d3a33bfe02d4422c331423bd62057a)

10.) I should not have tried to save Talinn. I know why I did it: to keep the mighty (!!) Finnish army out of the war. But with my reinforcement schedule not favoring North Front at all, I should have accepted that the Finns were going to get into the game eventually, and tried to adjust my plans on that. As it is, all I did was spread out my forces for Bart to eventually eat piecemeal. They should have been kept in a V shaped by (but not necessarily deeper than) the Narva / Luga / Novgorod line.


Not a new error but symptomatic of an older one still ongoing:

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F905%2FQZu0DN.png&hash=1d03451f5248fad71608ccf3f5383c72d158beb8)

Down south in the snapshot there, I'm superstacking forward still trying to prepare for a counter-thrust over the river (!?!?) or to snap the line directly at Dunaberg. They should have been deployed north of Polot around the curve of the swamp/creek line.

(The 48th conscript Army at Ostrov isn't a mistake, per se, nor the 24th Army next door, even though they're superstacked: I just can't move them to spread out yet. Not that I can credit myself with moving them to eliminate superstacking, since I've got a truly horrible one trying to hit Dunaberg, and one not much better right behind it. Also, very soon I'll be able to spread them out of their superstacks but won't. THAT'S an error.)


Here's how close I came to winning the game anyway despite my mistakes, btw:

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F910%2Fqj1hF5.png&hash=300cdafe6118f2e995a7248c29d10902aa612d73)

Those two armored divisions at the far left of the swamp road, ONE OF WHICH COULD HAVE MOVED BUT DIDN'T AARGGHH!, are open to Brest. Just like I had been hoping for. Their HQ is not in proper position yet to support them, and that will be one doom for this plan (already noted); the area I'm "kind of worried about" can't be protected at all, and that'll be the other doom.

(I'm pretty sure I didn't move the capable armored division forward because I didn't want to create two weaker stacks. As it happens, moving it forward by itself wouldn't have helped any anyway, so I don't regard this as an operational error: I did the right thing keeping them together for now.)

Here's a snapshot from the turn Bart closed off the Marsh-mellow pocket, where the labels show the key problem for advancing my quasi-panzers.

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F923%2FzRpiRk.png&hash=d2fc784558c01e7292bfad1341689a8a94b85f35)

See the problem? Most of the armored divs belong to 16th HQ, which is waaaaayyyyy back on the road. They can't feasibly advance beyond its control radius, which they're already at the limit of.

But enough of that. Let's take a look at a brand-new operational error, shall we?


(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F922%2FYpgL7c.png&hash=12482940d2a51b980486b7e4f38fda2501621836)

11.) No. No. No. No! NO! NO! NNNNOOO!!!!

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi0.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Fnewsfeed%2F000%2F272%2F014%2Fe6a.jpg&hash=419b6bd7fe76bc3ded0b9e23f8dbf22086a0f1c4)

Oh you utter moron, me! No, you should NOT be looking for a way to maroon {/bugsbunnyirony} your new conscript army behind a river, unable to escape, in an even-more-vulnerable superstack! You should be pulling back to try to secure the escape of your other somewhat more competent stacks!

But no. The game will give me my opportunity to ruin what little defensive value I've managed to create here. And I'll take it. Because I want so badly to hit back with an amazing genius of amazingosity. And my brain simply cannot be made to believe the Romanians are all that much of a muchness.


The next error is really an extension of a previous one, but it's so teeth-gnashing I'm going to give it it's own number:

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F923%2FfOZDKo.png&hash=552bb797f66e351b800be3b9a52c58e2e6f14775)

12.)Why. Why do I think my activations (or anything else) will allow me to get any farther. All I've done is trap a chunk of my defense on the wrong side of the river, while the German 30th Motorized Division (IN TRUCKKKSSS!!!) trundles ahead into the gap I've left wide open in my backside.

Not that it strictly matters yet: the Germans can't easily cross the front boundaries like I can (whence I conceived this idea in the first place). But still the principle trigger for the collapse of the Central Wall and my loss of the game, while set up much earlier, starts here.


But that's really an old error, albeit one so catastrophically bad that I gave it an extra number. Here's a new one in the planning.

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F924%2Fcv4j9F.png%2Fimg%255D%253Cbr%2520%2F%253E%253Cbr%2520%2F%253E13.%29%2520Kursk%2520should%2520have%2520been%2520a%2520staging%2520point%2520for%2520arriving%2520armies%2520to%2520surge%2520%255Bu%255Dnorth%255B%2Fu%255D%2C%2520and%2520maybe%2520%255Bu%255Dsouth%255B%2Fu%255D%2C%2520not%2520%255Bu%255Dwest%255B%2Fu%255D%2520even%2520though%2520my%2520idea%2520here%2520is%2520to%2520relieve%2520the%2520marsh%2520pocket%2520a...%2520a%2520few%2520whole%2520%255Bu%255Dmonths%255B%2Fu%255D...%2520from%2520now...%2520%3Acrazy2%3A%253Cbr%2520%2F%253E%253Cbr%2520%2F%253E%255Bimg%255Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F922%2FoGUr5C.png&hash=fed976bb65e04cfeaf2c4938f0e4cecfaf8f86d5)

Barth's taunt is actually true. And so is consequently even more taunty! :D

(Note: I'm sure my code is right there, and the image shows up in the actual AAR thread. Huh. Until/unless it shows up, what he's saying is "Blitztreat... I like it... You should do more of it. :) "


This for example is the opposite of a blitztreat, yet demonstrates why my earlier most crucial operational error was so catastrophic:

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F922%2FC15sKy.png&hash=70ea401c148dc339a20499e98f12878812088a2c)

Since it is literally impossible for Soviet troops to walk anywhere, these armies will die where they stand. And deservedly so -- but I'm the one who opened the gate this way.


Here's a more subtle error:

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F923%2Fks5luI.png&hash=6ccfff2de53f6c1e7d6f14ae1b9e985c5f71d456)

14.) You might think, well, if I put a bunch of conscript armies on the rail line, that'll be helpful, right? Once I get them spread out?

No. No not really. Admittedly, I was trying to keep some supply open for the Rostov/Stalingrad area eventually, but Kursk should have been my base for that.

And there you can see that instead, I'm plodding most of the first army west 'to the rescue' up there. Those divisions left behind will be weaker without my HQ once it leaves range.

I should have been deploying my new recruit armies around Kursk up there (very top center of the next snapshot) and...

(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F921%2FJf3Fql.png&hash=9d47befd97ac12072a4aece67740bdeb8f0a55d6)

Down on the Rostov line. Yes behind my Front HQ in Stalino -- it would escape and move somewhere, no biggie. That would have slowed down Barth's push a lot more, as he either first would have to split his forces wide to deal with both Rotov and Kursk, or concentrated on the Kursk buildup first to keep them from punching back down into his supply line. {also strategy redacted here for next time maybe}


None of which matters because the total collapse of Central Wall is going to lose me the game, even if the South was his target (and remained that way). Any operational errors I made from here to the end of the game are ultimately meaningless.

Learn from my mistakes.

Learn them.

Great read Jason, as always.  O0

This game has such depth to it that it's great to read afterward what your opponent was agonizing over and see how it meshed, or didn't, with your own worries and concerns.

Every time I thought I had a large clear space to drive my panzers through, one of your conscript armies would appear! It seemed to me that you had a endless supply of men and divisions.  :pullhair:

But it is true that eh game pivotal moment is when you made the dash down the dividing line between my North and Central Army Groups. Up until then I had know idea how I was going to get by the Great Red Wall in the center.
I was able, at great expense, to reassign the 4th Army to Army Group Center to cut off that thrust and then swing 2nd and 3rd Panzer Armies up and around through that gap.
At which point, of course, my objective was switched from Moscow to Rostov!  #:-) But I had to continue, of course, and try to form the largest pocket ever.

It was a fun game and I am sorry it took so long. I had stretched myself too thin in real life and everything was falling behind.  :-\

If we start again I promise to play at a better rate. And I would really like to try again now that so much has been updated since we played.

Thanks Jason, what an excellent post mortem. I followed the DARs you guys did with great interest, but since I don't own this particular game was left guessing at times as why certain things happened, or got you worried at least.

From the point of a simulation, and this is not GG WitE, which I don't own either, how do you feel about it? I'm currently re-reading Glantz's excellent (and extremely tedious unless you enjoy reading Divisional war diaries) Barbarossa Derailed (https://www.amazon.com/Barbarossa-Derailed-Advance-Encirclement-Counteroffensives/dp/1911096095) I and II. What Glantz revealed in detail with his studies was the relentless counter attacking the Red Army put from the very beginning. No matter what, the commanders were told to ATTACK. And they did, often with catastrophic consequences, but always wearing the Nazis down. Until they were spent.

Yet, Jason, you mention that as part of the strategic mistakes you did. I assume it should not be too succesful, but is your experience not to counterattack at all?

I was thoroughly enjoying all the encirclements you guys saw taking place, great thing they happened, as encirclements and not certain geographics targets were the goal of Barbarossa, at least in the beginning.

Looking forward to August  :smitten:

Quote from: Crossroads on March 14, 2017, 04:00:15 AM

From the point of a simulation

I mean, not as a simulation simulation, but how did this feel as a Barbarossa game, ie. realistic enough to allow enjoying the Barbarossa as a whole?

I understand this game has a very user friendly approach compared to the vast scale of the battle it portrays.

Thanks, CR!

I've often said that the toughest thing about designing a Barbarossa game focusing on Barba, is making the game fun to play as a game rather than only curbstomping the Russians, or only being curbstomped. But then unless Russia is being brutally curbstomped, how could it be a "Barbarossa" game?

Unity of Command, for example, gets around this by focusing their Barba missions on playing as Germany, and if you're playing as the Russians in mp (...I think UoC has mp??) you might find things rather too easy because the missions are set up as puzzles with very tight time constraints: you can game the system against the Germans. That can be a game but not necessarily a Barba experience from the Russian side. There's a reason that the DLC is called "Black Turn"; and why single-players aren't encouraged to play the missions as the Russians.

For War in the East, the devs have worked hard from day one trying to balance the game in such a way as to give a proper Barba feel in its early stages, but it really is a simulation and the Russian player is in a position where he can just do things less dumb! Trying to make the game balance out to being a Barbarossa situation anyway, can break WitE in other regards, and kind of requires re-breaking it later and ad hoccing a historical shape to the overall campaign. (I'm basing this on some comments I've read, having never played more than five minutes of WitE.)

There's a Barbarossa game based on the Panzer General engine (more closely so than UoC) from Matrix that I own two editions of but have never played, or ever heard much about, so I can't do any comparison here.



So, does DC3:B feel realistic enough? Yes, to me it did. The game has some clear granularity under the hood, and that helps a lot. The abstractions helped with focus instead of blurring things. The designers do haxor the game to produce a historical-ish result, but they're pretty clear about what the haxors are and why they're in the game and, importantly, the hobbles are reasonable to the situation.

For example, and related to your question about Glantz, the Soviet divisions in the Central and Southern Fronts (and the south part of North Front) start on attack stance, which gives them natural debuffs to defense. But their defensive debuffs are worse than you might otherwise expect, and their 20% attack buffs don't mean much due to the quality of the troops and the inabilities to get everyone moving together: if an army doesn't activate properly, its divisions aren't going to be able to launch effective attacks. Combine this with some generally weak troop types (including actual no-kidding horse-mounted divisions), and an inability for reasonable game reasons to shift easily to some other modes, and the Soviets get pushed around a lot and their attacks are largely worthless. But that wasn't quite enough to generate a generally Barbarish opening, so simulating the shock of the first month and the generals being afraid to go on the defensive at all, and there's a further defensive debuff which slowly reduces over time to the normal horrible debuff! -- which is also connected to their total inability to use entrenchments and fortifications at first, which slowly recovers over the same time period. That inability has a historical justification though: Stalin meant for them to be launching a pre-emptive attack on Germany which never materialized, and so they were caught outside their fine defensive positions and unable (and thanks to threats from Stalin unwilling, at a command level) to get back into them.

Now, comparing these factors to Glantz almost isn't fair, because he's doing cutting-edged research based on Soviet (and I think some captured Nazi) docs, which is greatly expanding our knowledge of what was happening in Barbarossa -- the top three largest tank battles in world history, and yet there remains hardly any direct evidence of their existence for example. If Glantz says their attacks weren't worth poo, and actually made a difference, then I'm inclined to believe him. The game, at the time we played it (and the patch notes I've seen don't seem to change this), simulates a more standard historical story of their counter-attacks being so worthless that all they could do was be punched back and encircled all the time.

So yes, despite his research, as far as the game goes I'd have to say that counterattacks at all in the first month are pointless, and not worth much more when the first serious waves of regular divisions start to arrive (without any lingering defensive maluses and set to neutral stance for no defensive debuffs that way either -- but the ones up near and past Leningrad start that way, too, and can't feasibly deal with the Finns!) Then the emergency recruit divisions start arriving, and they're a joke. The game is trying to set up a situation where the Soviet player is scrambling to slow down the Nazis, while preserving enough forces to attempt a true counter-attack in the winter of 41/42 when the Germans will be at their most defensively vulnerable. Until then, I cannot imagine the Soviets in this game wearing down the German divisions with counter-attacks.

I think Barth would agree with me from his perspective, and look forward to any additional comments from him along this line.

Could the game be updated to Glantz's discoveries? Probably, but this would require an increased German reinforcement schedule I think; and on the Russian side, a lot more early Soviet army activations at least.

Thanks Jason! I can imagine creating a proper Barbarossa feel at this scale is anything but easy  :crazy2: But given on one hand you say counter attacks are worthless but on the other hand the early Soviet formations are forced to stick to Attack stance, well that makes great sense.

And I especially liked the encirclements that took place, those looked properly epic, both from the point of view of how Barth tried to achieve them, and how you on the other hand tried to avoid them, while maintaining a as solid overall defence line as possible. Way epic.

And it looked liked it played quite fast too, given the scale.

I just may need to buy this one.

Crossroads you need to by this game if have even a passing interest in the subject. The way the Devs have woven the political interference into the game from both sides leaders and army structures in nothing short of amazing. As the Germans I was constantly fight both the Russians and my own leadership.

I agree that most of Jason's early counter attacks were not too much of a nuisance and most of my worries early on were maintain enough forward momentum that I can get far enough to be able to rest and change my army stances. So most of his units were merely speed bumps. But not all. There were times when he made some attacks that IF he'd been able to sustain them it would have caused me lots of trouble. Also if he'd attacked into my very weakened 4th Army the massive game ending encirclement would not have been possible.
Also even though Jason felt that he was not wearing down my units he actually was (hint fer Jason ;) ) . It's not just material that I had to worry about but the build up of fatigue. Each battle, not matter how small, added to the fatigue of my units which in turn makes them less capable in battle. So even though my body count was way ahead of his, my men and vehicles were wearing out at an increasing rate the entire game... well until I rested them and the bug kicked in.

So overall the campaign felt like a very plausible telling of the actually history. The ebb and flow of the battles and front lines felt right for what we were recreating.

Looking forward to a rematch.

Cheers Barth! So those counter attacks were wearing the Germans down  :smitten:  :clap:

I still have my Matrix Anniversary Coupon around somewhere... now where is it again...

So that's why I haven't bought this yet. Been here before. Go to the Steam store. Begin to contemplate about really wanting to start with Warsaw To Paris instead. Then procrastinate more, as that one is so much older of a version... Help me out here guys

DC1, and DC2 for that matter, are quite different games. The battle mechanics are similar, but the interactive politics in DC3 are waaaay different. I have never played anything like it.

I would love to see DC1 and DC2 upgraded to DC3's level. Not sure that's possible without a massive code rewrite.

I've played games like DC1 and DC2 before. They're great examples of that genre. DC3 isn't just another example of that genre. It builds upon that genre into a new kind of game.

DC1 is a great game. I still play it. The full France campaign is a lot of fun from either side.

DC2 was just too many units for me. The scale was just not fun for me.

DC3 uses similar base mechanics but the new political level added is a fantastic addition. I think it's the best in the series.

Quote from: Barthheart on March 14, 2017, 06:09:44 PM
DC1 is a great game. I still play it. The full France campaign is a lot of fun from either side.

DC2 was just too many units for me. The scale was just not fun for me.

DC3 uses similar base mechanics but the new political level added is a fantastic addition. I think it's the best in the series.

Cheers Barth, that's the one to begin with then  :)

I loved DC 1 AND DC 2. I like pushing all those counters around that gorgeous map with real roads and rivers to cross. Case Blue also has a reasonable attempt at a Naval Element in the game and, is a lot to deal with, but is quite the challenge and fun. I'm not sure I like the change to larger scale units in DC 3. Give me back my all my hundreds of regiments please!

Quote from: Sir Slash on March 15, 2017, 09:55:25 AM
I loved DC 1 AND DC 2. I like pushing all those counters around that gorgeous map with real roads and rivers to cross. Case Blue also has a reasonable attempt at a Naval Element in the game and, is a lot to deal with, but is quite the challenge and fun. I'm not sure I like the change to larger scale units in DC 3. Give me back my all my hundreds of regiments please!

Ended up buying both Barbarossa and Warsaw To Paris. Damn Matrix store put a hefty discount to latter with DC3 placed into the cart. How could I resist... :hide:

 :bd:

Quote from: Sir Slash on March 15, 2017, 09:55:25 AM
I loved DC 1 AND DC 2. I like pushing all those counters around that gorgeous map with real roads and rivers to cross. Case Blue also has a reasonable attempt at a Naval Element in the game and, is a lot to deal with, but is quite the challenge and fun. I'm not sure I like the change to larger scale units in DC 3. Give me back my all my hundreds of regiments please!

In Soviet Russia, divisions hundreds you!

Quote from: Sir Slash on March 15, 2017, 09:55:25 AM
I loved DC 1 AND DC 2. I like pushing all those counters around that gorgeous map with real roads and rivers to cross. Case Blue also has a reasonable attempt at a Naval Element in the game and, is a lot to deal with, but is quite the challenge and fun. I'm not sure I like the change to larger scale units in DC 3. Give me back my all my hundreds of regiments please!

We need to play a game of Warsaw to Paris.... I'll even take the French?  :D

Quote from: Barthheart on March 15, 2017, 01:45:11 PM
:bd:

Finished with installing all three games, as I downloaded the DC Community Project beta as well.

So far so interesting, have just had the time to launch each game, poke around the tutorials a bit, looked at the manuals, launched the campaigns too to see the large picture. Looks really interesting, I've really not found an operational home since TOAW III, this just might be it. 

Go read this thread I created back when I was helping out on the first DC with Vic. It'll get you started on the mechanics of the first game and is somewhat helpful for the whole series.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2561038

That was my go-to post back when I first got clobbered by the AI in DC 1. It got me straightened-out and on the winning side.

Quote from: Barthheart on March 15, 2017, 05:02:22 PM
Go read this thread I created back when I was helping out on the first DC with Vic. It'll get you started on the mechanics of the first game and is somewhat helpful for the whole series.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2561038

Thanks Barth, most excellent! And what an example for me with my current DAR on how to ease the learning curve of a game system.

Quote from: Sir Slash on March 15, 2017, 09:50:00 PM
That was my go-to post back when I first got clobbered by the AI in DC 1. It got me straightened-out and on the winning side.

And cheers to Sir Slash as well for giving the nudge to get the Warsaw to Paris as well. I am a shameless early war fanboy, so spoiled now. Fall Weiss, Winter War via Community Project, Fall Gelb, Barbarossa.  :smitten:  I'll play them chronologically, so to be sure I am fully up to speed once Jason and Barth continue with the renewed hostilities on eastern steppes.  :nerd:

Sorry, did not want to steal the thread. Back to post mortem  :knuppel2:

Quote from: Barthheart on March 15, 2017, 01:52:08 PM

Quote from: Sir Slash on March 15, 2017, 09:55:25 AM
I loved DC 1 AND DC 2. I like pushing all those counters around that gorgeous map with real roads and rivers to cross. Case Blue also has a reasonable attempt at a Naval Element in the game and, is a lot to deal with, but is quite the challenge and fun. I'm not sure I like the change to larger scale units in DC 3. Give me back my all my hundreds of regiments please!

We need to play a game of Warsaw to Paris.... I'll even take the French?  :D

!!MASSIVE

JEALOUSY!!  :tickedoff:

Although if we do a sequel Case Blue game I would be mollified.  :coolsmiley:

Quote from: Crossroads on March 16, 2017, 01:25:13 AM
I am a shameless early war fanboy, so spoiled now. Fall Weiss, Winter War via Community Project, Fall Gelb, Barbarossa.  :smitten:

I'm writing up mission list descriptions for the Command Ops 2 volumes, and "The Foothills of the Gods" provides a little-known late-blitz set of scenarios. I've known this for years since Conquest of the Aegean of course, but when I sit down to finally and definitely get into the system I'm starting there. (It also features the lowest unit-count per mission on average, and the three or four fewest unit missions in the series so far.) Watching the Germans trying to put their honed blitz strategies into the valleys and mountains of Greece (with Italy trying to follow suit from over the Albanian border), while ANZAC troops from half a world away desperately trade their blood to protect fleeing outmatched Greek troops -- who end up surrendering while the shattered Commonwealth groups hold the gates of Thermopylae in order to evacuate the country...  :smitten: :smitten: :smitten: :smitten:


I forgot to mention I'm doing this to help Panther market their dang games, since they're too busy to explain to potential buyers what the hell missions are even in the packs.  ::) :knuppel2:

Quote from: JasonPratt on March 16, 2017, 10:55:28 AM

Quote from: Barthheart on March 15, 2017, 01:52:08 PM

Quote from: Sir Slash on March 15, 2017, 09:55:25 AM
I loved DC 1 AND DC 2. I like pushing all those counters around that gorgeous map with real roads and rivers to cross. Case Blue also has a reasonable attempt at a Naval Element in the game and, is a lot to deal with, but is quite the challenge and fun. I'm not sure I like the change to larger scale units in DC 3. Give me back my all my hundreds of regiments please!

We need to play a game of Warsaw to Paris.... I'll even take the French?  :D

!!MASSIVE

JEALOUSY!!  :tickedoff:

Although if we do a sequel Case Blue game I would be mollified.  :coolsmiley:

I'll play you Warsaw to Paris if you'd like. And I'll even take the French.  :D

Quote from: JasonPratt on March 16, 2017, 11:06:02 AM

Quote from: Crossroads on March 16, 2017, 01:25:13 AM
I am a shameless early war fanboy, so spoiled now. Fall Weiss, Winter War via Community Project, Fall Gelb, Barbarossa.  :smitten:

I'm writing up mission list descriptions for the Command Ops 2 volumes, and "The Foothills of the Gods" provides a little-known late-blitz set of scenarios. I've known this for years since Conquest of the Aegean of course, but when I sit down to finally and definitely get into the system I'm starting there. (It also features the lowest unit-count per mission on average, and the three or four fewest unit missions in the series so far.) Watching the Germans trying to put their honed blitz strategies into the valleys and mountains of Greece (with Italy trying to follow suit from over the Albanian border), while ANZAC troops from half a world away desperately trade their blood to protect fleeing outmatched Greek troops -- who end up surrendering while the shattered Commonwealth groups hold the gates of Thermopylae in order to evacuate the country...  :smitten: :smitten: :smitten: :smitten:


I forgot to mention I'm doing this to help Panther market their dang games, since they're too busy to explain to potential buyers what the hell missions are even in the packs.  ::) :knuppel2:

Yessir! I've poked at Command Ops 2 while at LnL store, have not swallowed the bait yet, but if (when) I do, Foothils of the Gods would be the way to start  :bd:

Quote from: Barthheart on March 16, 2017, 11:48:02 AM

Quote from: JasonPratt on March 16, 2017, 10:55:28 AM

Quote from: Barthheart on March 15, 2017, 01:52:08 PM

Quote from: Sir Slash on March 15, 2017, 09:55:25 AM
I loved DC 1 AND DC 2. I like pushing all those counters around that gorgeous map with real roads and rivers to cross. Case Blue also has a reasonable attempt at a Naval Element in the game and, is a lot to deal with, but is quite the challenge and fun. I'm not sure I like the change to larger scale units in DC 3. Give me back my all my hundreds of regiments please!

We need to play a game of Warsaw to Paris.... I'll even take the French?  :D

!!MASSIVE

JEALOUSY!!  :tickedoff:

Although if we do a sequel Case Blue game I would be mollified.  :coolsmiley:

I'll play you Warsaw to Paris if you'd like. And I'll even take the French.  :D

Go guys! DARs mandatory of course  :bd:

I'd buy a ticket to see a Jason vs Barth DC 1 match-up. Maybe even Pay-Per-View.

Full campaign, or just Case Yellow then?

(For those who don't know, DC1 consists of three scenarios which can be linked together in an ongoing campaign -- and this linked campaign can be played mp. It's also possible to co-op a side against the AI.)

Just Case Yellow would be my choice.... although Case White is a really good fight too... but Yellow is still my favourite.

Which side do you wish to take?

I would think Case White might not be a fair fight MP though I'd love to see an entire campaign played out. The Poles really have a hard time trying to stop the Germans especially against a veteran player. Or am I wrong about this?

The victory conditions for this game are setup really well. The Germans have a very tight schedule to maintain, they must do at least as well as history, and if the Poles can derail their drive even a little the Germans will lose.

For the Poles it's about where and when to put up a fight and where else to just throw units as speed bumps. It's one of the best games versions for this campaign that I've ever played.

The Battle for France on the other hand is extremely hard to win as the French even for a veteran player. It can be done but it's very rare.... hence the challenge!  >:D

Part of the point to doing a linked campaign (of only White and Yellow if you wanted, no SeaLion or optional), would be to use a successful Polish delay to help France prepare to parry the Germans and ruin their plans. Case White helps balance Case Yellow, in other words.

I'd be okay with skipping SeaLion if we did a linked campaign, just stop with historical. But if you really just want to do Yellow, or only White-or-Yellow, for time's sake, that's okay.  O0

Interesting..... sure White and Yellow it is.

No variants.

Who's who?

I'd still be the Germans. The intention is still so you can play the French.  O0 Weiss would be the strategic preliminary to that, and so an extension of the French campaign.

No variants is fine.

 O0

Well... the pressure to do this seems to be building so maybe we should just do it. When do you want to start? I guess anytime is good for me.

Oh and which version? 1.52g or the 1.60b beta?

Putting my Life on hold, severing all ties to friends and family, and making a doctor's appointment to ensure I don't croak and miss anything.

I am definitely not playing the beta, just to be safe. (Edited to add: unless they're saying the beta will ruin saves once it goes to the main version.)

PBEM ++ via Matrix again? I think that worked okay last time; we just need to be sure NOT to turn on the autocheck for alerting to a reload (vs save scumming). Otherwise we'll be caught unable to save during a turn again, which will limit how often we can send in turns (as we wait for long enough time blocks to open up to run a full turn).

Ok, PBEM++ without the PBEM security. Version 1.52g. Me allies, you bad guys.

Set'er up and let'er rip.   \m/

Quote from: JasonPratt on March 17, 2017, 12:14:40 PM
I'd still be the Germans. The intention is still so you can play the French. Weiss would be the strategic preliminary to that, and so an extension of the French campaign.

Yes, YES!

Quote from: Barthheart on March 17, 2017, 12:17:04 PM

Well... the pressure to do this seems to be building so maybe we should just do it. When do you want to start? I guess anytime is good for me.

Yes, LOTS of pressure. Do it.

Quote from: Sir Slash on March 17, 2017, 12:26:56 PM
Putting my Life on hold, severing all ties to friends and family, and making a doctor's appointment to ensure I don't croak and miss anything.

All that, plus stocking on Mac'n cheese cans so don't need to leave house either. Ever.

Quote from: Barthheart on March 17, 2017, 12:45:26 PM
Ok, PBEM++ without the PBEM security. Version 1.52g. Me allies, you bad guys.

Set'er up and let'er rip.   \m/

:clap: :clap: :clap:

(Note to self: set up game, or check to see if Barth has set it up, after work.)

(Note to self 2: learn how to play DC1 soon-ish.  ::)  :crazy2:  :hide:)

Readers should be aware that there will necessarily be some delay between the start of hostilities and the start of AARs. I have trouble foreseeing an AAR entry by me this weekend even if we play a turn or two. Partly because I will be trying a new AAR format design.

I need to go see what the updates bring as well... it's been a while... :D

No, No, NO! We demand instant gratification!

Quote from: Sir Slash on March 17, 2017, 02:02:51 PM
No, No, NO! We demand instant gratification!

You mean there's other types of gratification as well? But we can wait. At least for a few minutes more.

You can be working on finishing the Lybia fight, CR. ;)

Also, we mustn't distract Barth from finishing out his other more modern war on terror (http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=18727.0).

Hrm... As Germany I'll have to start the campaign, and I see how to do that for mp, but what I don't see is how to connect with PBEM ++...

Ah.  :buck2:

On further research, PBEM ++ isn't supported, and not much chance of its functionality ever being added to the code.

This isn't necessarily a problem. Except that the manual is SINGULARLY UNHELPFUL about how exactly to run a mp game; ditto the in-game texts. We may have to experiment.

(Ditto the Matrix forums.)

Ditto Youtube.

Ditto Google generally.

Ditto VR Systems' website.

Tried starting a mp game and ending a turn -- went straight to hotseat! Closed out (without looking around, no spoilers), went to see if there was a file generated to send for loading, and there wasn't.

Tried starting a mp game and ending a turn with autosave on. Same difference, except it generated an autosave for me as the Germans before turn-end. So loading that loads my turn, not Barth's.

:pullhair:

It looks a lot like only hotseat is supported... ??????????????????????????????????/

OK then. Guess we'll have to lock you two in a room for about 6 months. Motel 6?  ;D

Quote from: JasonPratt on March 17, 2017, 07:18:48 PM
Ditto Youtube.

Ditto Google generally.

Ditto VR Systems' website.

Tried starting a mp game and ending a turn -- went straight to hotseat! Closed out (without looking around, no spoilers), went to see if there was a file generated to send for loading, and there wasn't.

Tried starting a mp game and ending a turn with autosave on. Same difference, except it generated an autosave for me as the Germans before turn-end. So loading that loads my turn, not Barth's.

:pullhair:

It looks a lot like only hotseat is supported... ??????????????????????????????????/

From the product page
Team play options to allow up to 9 people to PBEM it out against each other or the AI

the unwashed masses want our AAR entertainment..AAR,AAR,AAR,AAR :clap:

Oh, I can quote even better than that (with some paraphrasing): the manual goes so far as to explain how many human players can play co-op against the AI -- and it's different for different factions!

It just remotely begins to start explaining HOW to do this -- with exactly one piece of information (the leader of a side uses an HQ power to assign different "regimes" by HQ to different players) that sounds like it's useful until you realize there's no way for other players to get into the game, or if so it gives you less than no idea how.  :pullhair:

Barthheart should be able to help out he did a PBEM AAR awhile ago.

More experimentation reveals some non-useful clarity.

1.) Starting one of the three scenarios opens up the option for a human to play the Allies against AI Germany. This is not an option in the campaign.

2.) It also opens up options for multiple German and Polish players in that scenario, and up to ELEVEN human players in the French scenario. (Haven't looked at Sealion.) The Allied players can be assigned directly to human or AI at the France setup; the German players, and Allied players in the Poland setup, can only be assigned in-game. From the evidence (haven't tested this yet, but in-game and the book both point this way strongly), choosing the proper checkmarks will unlock one of a set of otherwise similar starts (plus chosen historical variances, plus some random minor variances) with different fixed numbers of "slots". At that point the leader of each side uses HQ powers to set any slots on his side to human, otherwise they default to AI and behave as normally integrated. None of this can be done in the campaign: one human controls all Axis, one human (in mp) controls all Allied.

3.) None of this matters unless you have up to eleven players hotseating. Because the game still doesn't save an turn-ended file anywhere for the start of the next player to load up. I know, I tested it: from what I can find so far, the only mp option is hotseat, even on the separate scenarios.

Well... strictly the only mp option I can find so far, is to send a save or autosave file at the end of a turn, which the next player can totally look at as much as he wants before ending the previous player's turn.

So I go first, I save the game or I hit end-turn to generate an autosave (doesn't matter), then I quit with the X mark in the upper right corner. If I generated the autosave by ending my turn, I could go on and click through to check out all of Barth's dispositions, although I couldn't make any changes that would stick.

Then I email the save (pre-end or autosave either way doesn't really matter) to Barth. He loads it up, and is looking at the end of my turn when I saved it, or before I hit end-turn. He can check out anything he wants. Then he ends my turn, hotseats over to his turn, makes all his choices and moves (except that there are supposed to be pre-game strategic card choices for him and there aren't in the campaign -- I tried out of curiosity), and then repeats the process back: he can end his turn, and check my positions, or he can save (or do both) and then email me the save, I load up at the end of his turn and either scope out as much as I want or try to ignore any data on the screen while clicking his button to end his turn. (I think it loads up in the same map position each time, which unfortunately happens to be near an evacuation zone so parking the camera on an unimportant map place won't shield anything. I haven't tested that with a manual save, tho, yet.)

Hm, nope. When I load up a manual save, after putting my map down bottom left in Czech off-map (all black), it loads as close as it can get to OKH in center map. Granted, OKH is kind of useless in this game. (???) And where it's sitting if I leave it there will quickly become unimportant. Otherwise if I ever decide to move it around, my guess is that the load-camera will follow it.


Also, on further consideration I'm going to infer that if we check a historical start, then all his potential cards, and most of my starting cards, are useless anyway. I can still burn political points for all of mine even though they're mostly useless, but all of his would be useless so there's no point even giving him the option. (Why the game would even give me an option to burn points on cards that are worse than useless for a no-variant start, I have no idea, but then the game start button itself is a strategy card, so...)


Edited to add: I'm not actually worried about Barth intentionally looking up things before switching out the turn-ends, and I know I would choose not to intentionally look. But it could be hard not to see some map dispositions in passing that might be important. It's an equal risk anyway.  O:-)

Ummm... wow ... dude....  :o

It's been a while since I played an MP game of this but it was no where near as hard as you seem to be making it.... ???

I'm pretty sure there is a simple way for us to just use regular email to send files back and forth. Let me fist get rid of this hangover then I'll test it out.
PM me the email you want me to use for this.

OK, I'm still hungover but here's what you need to do.

1. Choose Start Campaign from the main screen.

2. Click on the word "Allies" in the Opponents box. It should change from Ai to Human. Make sure Fog of War is checked. Check Passwords and Historical Campaign. Then click Start.

3. Read all the dialog boxes. Choose whatever cards you want to use at the start. Then play the Go to War card.

4. Choose Login to set your password. Then choose Login again to start your turn.

5. Play the game. If you want to save in the middle of your turn then use the Save icon, not the End Turn icon, to save your progress. When you start the game up again choose Load Saved Game in the main menu. This will take right into your turn.

6. When you actually finish your turn and want to send me the file, use the End Turn icon. You'll go to a screen that says "Poland, it's your turn. Please login". Click the "Save+Quit" button. You then get to save the game in a new file. Choose a name with our names in it and a turn number so we can keep track. You won't see anything of my units.

7. Email me this new file. I'll set my password and play my turn and send the file back to you. Then we're off and running. You can't login to Poland and I can't login to Germany so all our info is safe.

I'll PM you my email address.

Quote from: Barthheart on March 18, 2017, 07:03:37 AM
OK, I'm still hungover but here's what you need to do.

The only thing I didn't do in that list was set up passwords at start. There was, of course, not the slightest inkling anywhere that this was how to set up a pbem game.  ::)

I'll test this soon to make sure I'm doing it right.

Yay, everything went as described!  :bd:

(That wasn't my actual turn, tho, I just sped thru everything fast to test it out.)

 \m/

Quote from: JasonPratt on March 18, 2017, 08:46:45 AM
Yay, everything went as described!  :bd:

(That wasn't my actual turn, tho, I just sped thru everything fast to test it out.)

:clap:

Now stop being nice to each other and start killing each other instead  :knuppel2: :smitten:

I have begun production.

Soon, there will be blitzing. I'm aiming to get Barth's first turn to him by this afternoon.

Don't rush Jason. He's a 'crafty' devil.  :hide:

"Don't rush" is my blitzkrieg motto!  :bd:

...


..........

:hide:

"Festina lente."  Augustus Caesar.
(Hasten, but slowly.)

Quote from: JasonPratt on March 18, 2017, 02:48:43 PM
"Don't rush" is my blitzkrieg motto!  :bd:

O0

There was no Blitz in the Krieg yet in Fall Weiss. In Fall Gelb, there was, perhaps, but they did not realise it at the time then either. 

edit typos. Damn cellphones, Germans had them they'd never conquered anything

True, they only kinda discovered blitzkrieg by accident after the fact, including for Fall Gelb. Even though they had a daring strategic thrust plan for demonstrating a Schiefflinesque attack into the Lowlands and then racing some panzer troops across the Ards to cut off the French marching up to help (and still flanking the Maginot that way), the Germans still expected the conquest of France to take basically all winter and maybe next spring. They were as surprised as anyone at how quickly France collapsed. Come to think of it, this might have informed their expectations of what the Bulge would accomplish (even if on a lesser scale against stiffer opposition): the Blitz had never really failed them before.

Anyway. Haven't done my first turn yet; I've only been working on the introduction so far. My loose plan is now to do the first turn tomorrow morning and send it in before continuing with AAR production.

Jason, you're right at the german's being surprised at the success of blitzkrieg.  But they earned that success.
Arguably, the biggest factor was that early on Guderian insisted on a dedicated corps for panzer divisions.
If the divisions had been put into a regular army corps, with infantry walking to contact, the speed of blitzkrieg could not have occurred.  Each corps commander would hold back the panzer division to not outrun his other formations.
After a few training exercises as a mechanized corps, he realised it would be revolutionary.

Quote from: besilarius on March 19, 2017, 08:24:11 AM
Jason, you're right at the german's being surprised at the success of blitzkrieg.  But they earned that success.

True. I'm not gonna lie, I squee'd when I randomly clicked on Guderian -- whose mechanized corps is sitting around ready to go (with arty and engineering support from the 4th Army.)

Whew! 1st Turn sent off. Going to be a while before my AARs start coming in, but material has been generated!