UPDATE: the game itself starts (as a test phase at first) downthread in this post (http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=18567.msg492556#msg492556).
UPDATE: Final Turn: http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=18567.msg500714#msg500714
Specifically, I'm checking if there's interest in, ideally, four players (plus me running the board and writing the ongoing DAR) teaming up against each other to play a full campaign of GMT's FIRE IN THE LAKE: Insurgency In Vietnam. For those who don't know, this is a highly regarded card/board game with four asynchronous sides, 2 vs 2, where influence tokens are used to represent the strategic fight for South Vietnam from 1964 to 1972, and a deck of cards creates the choices for players to manipulate those tokens around the map.
Why am I proposing this in the computer game section?
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Because someone has modded the game into Tabletop Simulator.
(For what it's worth, I would buy a copy from GMT if they still had one in stock, but it's both out of print and out of stock. So if this flies I'll be buying another game from the same designers instead that's still in stock. No point buying from Amazon, or Ebay, etc., since aside from price gouging the proceeds wouldn't go to help support either GMT or the designers. Nor has GMT created an official version for sale through TTS yet.)
Unlike Twilight Struggle (and its variants), which this game somewhat resembles, the players do not hold any secrets (aside from a special rule option to slightly randomize a few hidden variables, largely meant to make closely scoring players nervous whether they've actually won during a scoring round). Consequently, I can set up the board and play it with screenshots and open discussion with all players in a DAR thread (presumably in the forum games category); and if I ended up being one of the players, it wouldn't matter that I have direct access to all the pieces (because we just wouldn't use that special "deception" rule option -- which doesn't affect much anyway, it's just two small tokens randomly drawn from a pool).
No big rush on it -- many of us are still out of pocket for vacation -- but I thought I'd check on the level of interest. The four sides, as could be expected, are the USA, the Army of the Republic of Vietnam (South Vietnam), the North Vietnamese Army (North Vietnam), and the Viet Cong. The latter two would be on a shared team; the former on a shared team; but they play in separate cooperation with each other.
Here's a Grogheads review from 2014 by Michael Eckefels. (http://grogheads.com/?p=6429) "If this sounds like a sadistic version of the card game Spades or Hearts, you're getting the idea."
Edited to include the dang link this time. :crazy2:
I have the tabletop game and still have yet to play it. Although I read the rules and prepped the pieces quite awhile back.
So I'd be interested in a rookie game of Fire In The Lake at some point. Some of us were also talking about doing a Wing Leader Vassal game before long too.
Interested in topic. Don't have the game. No tabletop simulator too.
Quote from: jomni on December 29, 2016, 08:18:52 PM
Interested in topic. Don't have the game. No tabletop simulator too.
It's one of GMT's COIN series. Card-driven; one gets turned over every turn and has activation/action options for every player. Each faction has it's very own set of command options every turn, along with differing victory conditions, which is what makes the series really interesting IMO.
Each side plays a bit differently than the others. :bd: But the allied ones still play off each other for support, despite having their own individual objectives.
I've not really messed with Tabletop Simulator yet, despite owning it for quite awhile. It has many great games people have made modules for. I mainly got it in case we were going to do a multi-player game sometime, because I have a dedicated gaming table at the moment. But I can also see where it can be handy if you intend to play a long tabletop solitaire game (of which there are now quite a few newer ones) without leaving it set up on one of your tables at home.
Note: to participate in this game, you wouldn't need Tabletop Simulator. I'd just take screenshots of the board and post updates to various information: e.g. this card is active now, here's what it looks like, and the next card that will be played, NVA gets to make first choice whether to use the card or pass until next turn, okay NVA player took this option and played it that way for this effect (the only random effect is really the card shuffle), etc.
The thread would be totally open because, as noted, there is no secret information in this game; non-players could comment easily, ask questions, give advice, correct any mistakes they detect.
It's been a while since I played it, but I might be able to swing a game of this through TS. Or however you want to do it.
The game is basically played this way:
* During setup, various pieces are placed on the board in pre-ordained areas (depending on the scenario). No need to make choices at this point (I think). Various cards are randomly dealt out facedown into six decks, two each for roughly early / mid / late war (for the long scenario), and synched for the time period since we're using that option. Only half the event cards will ever be used in any game, which randomizes things even more. A (not always period appropriate) "Coup Card" is shuffled into each of the six event decks -- when that card is pulled, everyone compares their scores, probably with some adjustments triggered by specific Coups. If win conditions have been triggered, that could be the end of the game. If the final card of the final deck is played, then afterward will be the final scoring phase. So the game can end six semi-random times, before the formal game end.
* During each turn, an event card is drawn off the top of the active deck (early, middle, or late war, with the early war period lasting half as long as the other two). The next event card is also flipped over so everyone can see what event is coming next, but it isn't active yet. (This means everyone will know when a period's Coup is about to happen!) Each faction also has exactly one special event card which their player can substitute exactly once per game before a newly active card goes into effect. (Except against an active Coup card.) Each card has event effects for each team; so for example it's theoretically possible that the NVA player may get to trigger the event for "Arc Light" despite that being nominally a US card, but the effect will be different and beneficial for the NVA (or for the VC if that player gets to use the event). In this example, the NVA or VC player would benefit from the "Moonscape" effect (because the US bombed an area so hard that there has been a backlash in public support favoring North Vietnam).
* Only two factions, maximum, can play on any given turn; and the order of play each turn depends on the newly active event card, which has the faction play order printed left to right across the top. So if the USA is listed first, the USA player gets to choose first whether you will activate the card event; or choose one of four more generic operations which (usually) can be played any turn; or choose a generic operation plus one of three more generic special operation types. Or the USA can choose to pass this turn, giving first opportunity to choose how the card is played to the next player on that card's play-order list. Once any player commits to acting on the card (everyone could of course pass and the card just goes unplayed), the next player on the card's list must either pass or play a responsive action determined by how the prior player chose. So if the USA player plays the event, the next player who accepts the card must play an operation without a special additional op (or else pass). There's a little box on the board to help track how this goes, don't worry; it's easier than it sounds.
* Whichever one or two factions (if any) accept the card on a turn, will be locked out of being able to accept the card for the next turn! This is one reason why it's so important (and great) that next turn's card is always visible. You aren't only deciding how to play this turn's card, you're also deciding whether to give up playing next turn! All players who pass, though, will be eligible to play the next turn. (Coups also reset everyone to active.)
* Basically that's the game. In practice, players just decide where they want to put card effects (assuming those effects are possible) on the map, which boils down to placing or removing your or someone else's influence blocks in valid territories of your choice, and/or shifting your potential score and/or your resources available for conducting ops. If you play an event you may get to remove two divisions from a valid territory of your choice but also (because of the 'flavor' of the event) have to sacrifice two potential victory points. Or you may do an operation that improves the Ho Chi Minh trail so that next turn you'll get more income to do other kinds of ops -- some ops can be played for free, others cost resources. Some op choices for some players restrict what kind of special ops you can also play, if you or the prior player this turn chose in such a way that you can do special ops this turn. (Also there's a special hampering effect called the Monsoon, which coincidentally just happens to kick into gear the turn before each Coup, and which severely restricts ops available for all factions. This is a balancing feature to keep players from doing too much goofiness before the next scoring opportunity.)
Love FITL. Played it about a dozen times. I even have a copy of FITL and have Tabletop simulator. But no time for a real time match (also I am out on the West Coast so time difference issues as well).
I usually play by PBEM with Vassal.
But I am interested to see how it goes...
AzTank; it won't be a real-time match, so you could still do it if you want -- no different than checking in on the Grog forum a few times a day. O0 The game art is borrowed from the Vassal edition, btw.
Cool, if not real time, I'm in.
There was a Vassal game about a year ago with Ubercat / myself and a few others.
you might find some other possible players at this thread:
http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=10894.0
Screw it, if I wasn't clear before, I'm in too.
How are you going to assign sides, JP? I assume you're playing as well?
Quote from: JasonPratt on December 30, 2016, 12:59:04 PM
AzTank; it won't be a real-time match, so you could still do it if you want -- no different than checking in on the Grog forum a few times a day. O0 The game art is borrowed from the Vassal edition, btw.
BTW, I can usually check once per day, not much more than that.
B_C, if I can get four other players, I'll entertain myself by just doing the 'hosting' reports for the game.
But the fully open nature of the game means anyone (myself included) can jump in to take over a position if someone has to bail out.
I'm willing to assign factions randomly, or by the first to ask for a faction.
AzTank, I'll get emails from players via pmail, and ping players to check on the thread when it's time to make a decision. (Subscribing to the thread, which happens automatically by posting in it, can send alerts to your email on thread activity, too; but in my experience the alerts from this forum's engine are spotty.) I can also ping any player by Facebook Messenger if you prefer.
Jomni, did you decide you wanted to learn? I'd recommend teaming you and Nef separately with the two more experienced players.
The gamethread (which I presume would be this one, with a modified intro title, and a link downthread to gamestart) would be totally open for public discussion between teammates; or teammates can send each other private messages by various means as you arrange.
Would prefer to use TTS, or Vassal if need be. We'll see.
Nef does obliquely raise the question of how feasible this project is.
For that purpose, how about I set up a test round to play a few early turns, with AzTank (as evidently the most experienced) going first, B_C (as evidently the next most experienced) going next, then Nef, then either me or Jomni if you're still interested testing player 4.
Since I'm setting player order for test purposes, this means factions (and consequently teams) will be randomly assigned according to the first (and maybe second) card draw. (I'll explain that for fellow noobs once I get going.)
I don't care which side I play - just understand I'm going to be flippant and a smart ass. :)
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on December 31, 2016, 10:57:02 AM
just understand I'm going to be flippant and a smart ass. :)
Really gonna mix things up aren't you?
Depends on the faction I get. 8)
He'll obviously be the ARVN player.
Don't get me started, roundeye.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on December 31, 2016, 12:02:18 PM
Don't get me started, roundeye.
;D
Who was the Asian-American comedian that used to joke about, "you want cheeseburger, Roundeye?!" while peeling his eyelids back? Long time ago.
Hilarious.
:2funny:
Working on board setup this morning. You guys who have the physical game: how many US cubes should there be? (I mean the total number of "division" cubes, not the spec force cylinders nor the bases.) The TTS module has 46, but a comment on the mod thread says there should be 40. The final instructions don't say. They refer to a Force Pool on the Spaces List sheet, but I can't find a copy of the Spaces List (or the Force Pool) on the internet anywhere, including on BGG and the GMT page for the game.
I suppose strictly speaking, I ought to get a full Force Pool list just to double-check the mod numbers. I assume that would be easy to type out. (X US cubes, Y Specfor, Z Bases -- although bases are obvious, they're marked on the board.)
Okay, while a quick Force Pool check would still be a good idea, I did confirm from the process of deduction (based on the full game deployment schedule in the rules, comparing the starting US Vicpoints with the starting Saigon support + available bases) that there should indeed be 40 green cubes in the bag, not 46.
The first test turns will start soon!
Did you get a 4th person?
Not solid yet, no. Possibly not a solid 3rd person yet either, so if you stake a claim you've got room!
I plan to start the first test posts tonight, see how it goes. If we can't make it work well this way, I won't pursue it farther.
I shall relinquish my spot.
I really have way too much on my gaming plate to do. Not just digital gaming but tabletop too. Shouldn't be adding more to it. So backed up. :buck2:
Okay, let's run a few test hands, to see how well (or not!) the setup will work. Since I'm explaining things for new players and guests who don't know the game, this will take rather longer than a report normally would.
For this purpose, I've created a random 12 card 1964 deck plus one random Coup shuffled in -- if we decide this method works well enough, I'll start over with a new random deck of course.
For testing, I'm letting the most experienced players who have signed up so far (at the time of this test) go first; consequently, the factions (and thus the teams) will be decided randomly on how the first and maybe second cards turn up.
Turn One commences! -- the first card is drawn and made active; the upcoming card is also revealed.
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(The board has room, as shown, for players who prefer to put the upcoming card off the deck; but with my short-term memory I prefer the visual reminder of keeping it on the deck.)
The currently active card is LRRP (Long Range Recon Patrol); upcoming will be Brinks Hotel.
The tiny numbers in the upper left and upper right are the deck-year and the number for the printer to check that no duplicate cards were included. They have no gameplay value otherwise, and we shall never speak of them again. ;)
Next across the top are icons representing the factions: Green for US; blue for Viet Cong; yellow (with red star) for ARVN (Army of the Republic of Vietnam, i.e. South Vietnam); and red (with yellow star) for NVA (North Vietnam Army). The two teams are represented with squares and circles -- but remember, the team members are competing against each other, too!
The order of play for the turn runs left to right; so this card says the US will get to make the first choice of how to proceed. This also means AzTank will be playing the US faction, and Banzai_Cat will be playing the Viet Cong.
The US starts with 38 Victory Points, and needs at least 51 to trigger a win during scoring. The US scores and loses VPs by proportion of support or opposition for the Saigon regime (whichever one is in power, which on the full game always starts with Duong Van Minh -- a fact that mostly affects the ARVN player). The US also scores and loses VP based on how many divisions and bases are available or deployed (or lost). Ideally the US player wants South Vietnam to have a stable government that can protect itself without more than US advisory involvement: special force teams are fine, but not divisions and HQs. The US faction actually starts with two bases and ten divisions "out of play"; ideally he'll want to get those into being "available" but not deployed, if he can, which would represent the US growing in military power that can be deployed somewhere other than Vietnam.
Let's take a look at the US player's (and of course everyone else's) starting positions on the map.
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First, some quick errors: I know the Trail marker should be on 1; I simply forgot it. This will be fixed on a proper game start. Also, all those little colored circles with stars on the map, shouldn't be showing the stars -- those are the special force troops of the four factions (the Viet Cong are only specforcs), and they always start "underground". That'll also be fixed. However, it does make them a little easier to notice for a first time viewer.
Next, the US mostly ignores the point track going around the top and right edge -- except to steal resources from the ARVN! :D The colored cylinders represent the starting resources available to everyone for doing military operations and some other things. The US doesn't get one, because the US is super-rich and so doesn't have to be frugal with its resources (all its operations cost nothing in game terms).
My joke about stealing resources from the ARVN was true, though: the US can often take command of ARVN yellow troops (not the orange ones, though, so far as I recall), and doing that usually costs ARVN resources. So that yellow cylinder in the top right (on 30 points) is important for the US, too. The stronger South Vietnam is economically, though, the more they can resist the US spending their cash! So that little "Econ" chit on point 15 (top center of the snapshot) is important to the US, too: AzTank can only spend ARVN's money down to wherever that marker currently is.
(It's sharing the 15 point square with a chit for "Aid" and, slightly offscreen, "Patron", which are important for the ARVN. The red "NVA Control" isn't part of that group; it just happens to be sitting nearby.)
I suppose I should talk about the map layout, too. There are provinces (the big irregular map areas); cities (the big circular areas); Lines of Communication (dashed black and white lines of various thicknesses, typically on the borders of provinces) which represents roads mostly and (down south) the Mekong River branches; national borders (black and yellow dashed lines that can be mistaken for LoCs but which don't have their own little numbers); towns (small black circles at the joints of LoCs -- cities also act as LoC joints); and the ocean (which is one big blue thing to the east).
Each province and city has a name, two status squares, and a population number. Each province also has a terrain: dark green for jungle; light green for fields; brown for mountains. (Cities have a city terrain.)
Each LoC has a name (the most northern one is Route 9, between "North Vietnam" and Quang Tri) and a number. They don't have status squares, and bases can't be built on them, but they can have Troops and Specs put on them. None start the game on LoCs, though. By default, the ARVN player will get income from those LoCs during scoring rounds, if Team North forces aren't parked on them: that's what the little numbers (mostly 1) on the LoCs are for.
Each town has a name, and that's all. No military forces can be put in them (at this game's scale), but they can act as portals for Troops and Specs to get on and off roads. For example, those NVA special forces in Northern Laos could get on the Route 9 LoC by means of that little black dot (Khe San) and march to the city of Hue; ARVN troops (both military and police) in Hue could invade North Laos by the same route.
The two status squares above the population number in each province and city, indicate (left to right) support for Saigon and faction control. If Team South has more forces (of any kind) in a province or city than Team North, then the province or city will get a "COIN Control" marker (short for Counter-insurgent). If Team North has more forces of any kind, the area gets a "NVA Control" marker -- unless only VC forces are in the area. The VC can only help the NVA take control, or help deny control to Team South; they can't take control.
We can see two examples of this in the snapshot: look one province down from "North Vietnam" (which is just the southernmost NV province of course so doesn't need more distinction in-game), to "Quang Tri - Thua Thien". (About half the provinces on the map are combined from smaller pairs of provinces treated as one for the game. For brevity, often only the first name on the map is used.) AzTank as the US starts with a division (green cube) and a spec-ops group (green circle) in that province, but the VC player starts with a base and two specs. 3 to 2, the VC would take control except (in this game) the VC simply can't. But they're denying US and thus COIN (Team South) control. Bihn Dihn is another example toward the bottom of the snapshot.
So six areas (provinces and cities) on the upper half of the map start with COIN control -- in no case thanks to the US (in those cases)! Only two areas start with even passive Saigon support, near the bottom of the snapshot -- also not thanks to the US, but military presence per se isn't what wins those hearts and minds anyway. More on that later.
The NVA has control of three areas in this snapshot (and one more in the next one), but you may be surprised to see the support is "neutral". That's because none of those areas has any significant numbers of South Vietnamese population, so their opinion about the Saigon regime(s) doesn't count for or against support. Consequently, they also have a 0 pop. Theoretically either side could waste time and resources putting control in 0 pop areas, but no 0 pop area can provide practical support (used mainly by the US and the VC for victory points). Control of those 0 pop provinces does have practical uses, though! -- many of the NVA's few starting VPs come from controlling those areas!
(While I'm near the topic, Team South can never control that "North Vietnam" province at the top of the map, because no Team South forces can move there in the game. VC and, obviously, NVA forces can. It is entirely possible for the NVA player to lose control of that province by moving out all NVA forces from it! -- assuming Team South somehow used an event to get rid of the base there.)
Phew, okay! Caught up on understanding the map so far? Let's look at the bottom half.
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Yeek! Somehow this half is even worse!! (Note: the circles, as before, should all not show their stars, being blank and thus "underground" instead. Future snaps will adjust.)
Notice that the US starts with no forces at all in the southern half, except in Saigon (and outnumbered there by ARVN divisions, three orange "police" units and two yellow "military"). The VC don't just control the jungles north of Saigon, they "Active control" those areas -- that means the population numbers there count double for VC scoring (and some other purposes). Team South can get "Active support", too, but all their support starts out passive (where it exists at all) due to bungling by the regime(s) prior to 1964.
You can see the one NVA group down here, at the Parrot's Beak (named if I recall correctly for that salient jutting into South Vietnam from Cambodia). Also notice, in the middle of those jungle areas north of Saigon, is the province of Phuoc Long. Technically that's still South Vietnam, but it has a population of (in effect) zero, so while controlling it would be useful for some purposes trying to get support or opposition for Saigon would be impossible. My guess is that this is why their jungle is colored a little differently than other South Vietnam jungles (like those next door).
So, is that all clear enough? Next time I'll be going back to the first card, and explaining how the turn orders work, which has relevance to that rectangle down at the bottom of the map called "sequence of play".
(By then AzTank may already have decided what he wants to do, but if not that's okay.)
Quote from: JasonPratt on January 01, 2017, 08:52:54 PMFor this purpose, I've created a random 12 card 1964 deck plus one random Coup shuffled in -- if we decide this method works well enough, I'll start over with a new random deck of course.
I suppose I should clarify for veterans of the game, that I know I'm supposed to have
two coups in there, for a total of
14 cards -- each coup shuffled randomly into half the deck. The remaining two larger decks get coups shuffled into quarter-decks, consequently a total stack of six small 7-card decks, each with a Coup card for potential scoring. This arrangement keeps the Coups from clumping up too much, so that it's also impossible to get more than two Coups at a time. In the event of any clump of two Coups, the event plays on the second Coup of the clump but not the scoring phases.)
I just didn't want to risk having a Coup in our test turns. Although, being stupid #:-) L:-) , I didn't
simply not put in a Coup at all, I only put in
one Coup. Because in my head I was thinking of
minimal risk instead of
no risk. :uglystupid2:
So I'll find and remove the coup from the test deck and reshuffle it (under the cards already revealed of course).
Also, I'm going to work on making the forces in the Available boxes more clear. Right now they're mostly in stacks or (even less visibly) in bags.
Also, when I go back to talk about the active and upcoming cards next time, I'll take snapshots of each independently so I can zoom in farther: the resolution on the card gfx isn't the best to begin with, which gives them a nice faded pseudo-used look, but that isn't so great for our purposes.
Good Morning. How do I access the game board? I will play the event.
Well, I'm testing how feasible it is to access it just from reading screenshots and data reports. I don't know of a way to keep it running on a persistent server (other than keeping my computer on constantly 24 hours a day with this game running in the background so players can log in, check things out, do their move, and leave).
I'm hoping you can basically say, "Okay yep there are the pieces I have on the map, and in Available, and out of play," (only the US and ARVN get out-of-play pieces, for those who don't know yet); "there's the card this turn, and the upcoming card; so I can choose to pass this turn, or to activate one of the card's two events or play an operation from my nation's list; annnnnd I choose thus, with these areas and those pieces as my targets for the action."
Then I report the results, adjust the map accordingly, you and whoever you affected jot down some quick notes to remind you of what happened on the track perhaps (e.g. you reduced three ARVN resources but the card says you increased their Aid by two immediately). I remind the next player what his options are since you chose X, and show him the currently adjusted map, maybe remind him of his current stats, he makes his choice, rinse and repeat for the next turn.
OK, got it. Too bad we can't "save state" somehow and pass that back and forth.
Anyway, my turn:
-play event LRRP
-place 2 US irregulars in southern laos
-place 1 US irregular in Parrot's beak
(the playbook description for this card defines "the South" as Laos or Cambodia)
-Free airstrike
-reduce trail to 0
-kill everything in Southern Laos (2 NVA and 1 base)
-hit Quang Tin for three hits. (2 VC, VC base). increase opposition by 1
That will shift to COIN control in Binh Dinh
Several victory point markers shift. VC lose one because of destroyed base, but gain it right back (so a wash) because of increase in opposition in Binh Dinh. NVA lose one because of lost base. My ARVN friends gain 2 because of COIN control of 2 population in Bihn Dinh.
Heh. Turn one nuke! :notworthy:
I know that seems overpowered -- and it kind of is, he's the US -- but each player gets to use their operations to affect any and all valid targets they choose. Unless they're going second in a turn, as B_C is about to do, in which case they sometimes have to limit their operational effect -- if they choose that -- to one area, be that a province, a city, or a road. (I'll be calling Lines of Communications "roads" sometimes until players and guests get used to what LoCs mean; but LoCs also include three portions of the Mekong river.)
B_C won't have this limit, however, because since AzTank chose to play an event, B_C must choose an operation -- and B_C won't be limited to only one valid target. Also, he can add a free Special Activity at his discretion (somewhat dependent on the operation he chooses).
I'll explain what AzTank is doing in more detail in my next post, and also show the adjusted map after his action.
Quote from: JasonPratt on January 02, 2017, 09:05:44 PM
Heh. Turn one nuke! :notworthy:
I know that seems overpowered -- and it kind of is, he's the US --
:) A couple of things about this game... military victory is rare... in the end, it's all about victory points. So very asymmetric. The game is also a marathon, not a sprint. The best players I have seen usually stay with the pack, hitting down the occasional nail that sticks up, but then sprinting that last lap at the end.
Quote from: ArizonaTank on January 02, 2017, 09:32:55 PM
The best players I have seen usually stay with the pack, hitting down the occasional nail that sticks up, but then sprinting that last lap at the end.
Worth noting: he means
hitting the teammate, too! -- where that's safe (and possible) to do without endangering one's own lead. For reasons I'll explain soon, he couldn't target ARVN troops this turn, but there are ways. :knuppel2:
That said, before I resolve the turn I'll have to question a couple of statements:
Quote from: ArizonaTank on January 02, 2017, 06:57:28 PM
-hit Quang Tin for three hits. (2 VC, VC base). increase opposition by 1
That will shift to COIN control in Binh Dinh
Several victory point markers shift. VC lose one because of destroyed base, but gain it right back (so a wash) because of increase in opposition in Binh Dinh. [etc.]
1.) You couldn't have meant targeting Quang Tin, because there are no COIN forces there (no troops, specs, or bases from either the US or ARVN). Not coincidentally, Quang Tin also already has maximum opposition to the Saigon regime! The VC forces you mention
are indeed in Binh Dinh, and if you destroyed the VC forces there it would shift both opposition and control as noted.
2.) The Air Strike special activity forbids targeting hidden/underground pieces, and all spec forces start underground. (I explained I had forgotten this as a map error when setting up; not your fault.) You can still blow that base off the map -- the LRRP actually forces you to hit any bases in selected target areas first, instead of normally last -- but you'll have to select other valid targets.
3.) You're limited to destroying 6 enemy forces with your Air Strike, and there are
three specs (not
two) and a base in Southern Laos (where you sent two of your specs per card event choice). You can't target the spec forces currently: they start underground (my starting map error, fixed in subsequent maps including for the 'real' game if we decide to go for it), and I can't find in the rules where a special force deployment like the one in this card automatically reveals them to active. Nor does this card indicate that's a result of moving your Irregulars into an area. You can still smack the base of course!
Since this could easily make a difference in your choice of deployment, you're free to choose where to put those three Irregulars again: I'll repost the two snapshots for convenience, or rather new ones with the special forces properly hidden. Since you were basing your choice partly on my previous map error, you may also rechoose your main action for the turn if you want (i.e. a general operation instead of the card event, although personally I can't imagine you
wouldn't choose the card! -- I'm just trying to be fair. O:-) )
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F922%2FSAM5iN.png&hash=68a51715e132ebad001c491ca9b65b70d720b9bf)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F921%2FwGBHXI.png&hash=a700f9e9d88e5cb61c658d4f02c89942da91c7dd)
Those snaps show the newly updated pre-move map, with hidden specs (no stars on the light colored smaller circles. I should probably try to make those proper hex cylinders someday, but this is what the map modder has gone with for now. In TTS itself it isn't a big deal, since players can zoom in and flip pieces around to check by 'hand'.) I haven't degraded the trail yet since those are the new fresh start snaps, but I remember that's an option you wanted to take for the strike package. O0
I'll explain to new players how and why AzTank can make these choices tomorrow. Meanwhile, take note that absolutely none of that combat was random! -- which is very normal in this game. If you want to fight, you don't have to guess about the results, you can calculate them precisely according to various factors.
...usually. >:D There are many special modifications, some permanent some semi-permanent, which can eventually be put into play, and a few of those require a random 6-sided die roll to resolve.
Good Morning, sorry I meant Binh Dinh.... but you rightly bring up that all guerrilla's (VC and NVA) start as underground (rule 1.4.3)
So about the only thing I can hit with airstrikes at this point are non-tunneled bases. Good enough!!!
So this would change my move. I'll put the 1 ea of the three US irregulars in Parrot's Beak, Southern Laos and Central Laos.
I will take out the bases in
Parrot's Beak, Southern Laos, Central Laos, Quang Tri, Binh Dinh and Pleiku.
Pleiku, Binh Dinh and Quang Tri will shift towards opposition. So a pretty big hit on ARVN score. Also a hit on VC and NVA scores for lost bases.
hopefully got it right this time.
Banzai_Cat (Biet_Cong? >:D ), your turn will be coming up soon once I validate Az's move. I should get an email for you (or you should register it live on the forum, like Az and I have) so I can send you a turn alert when the time comes.
Quote from: JasonPratt on January 03, 2017, 07:37:24 PM
Banzai_Cat (Biet_Cong? >:D ), your turn will be coming up soon once I validate Az's move. I should get an email for you (or you should register it live on the forum, like Az and I have) so I can send you a turn alert when the time comes.
Sorry JP, I was going to do this tonight but I got sidetracked. I gotta go in the office tomorrow and then the gym so I won't be back until later tomorrow night.
What do you mean by register live in the forum? Do you mean another thread? I've not read through everything but I will.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on January 03, 2017, 08:58:30 PM
What do you mean by register live in the forum? Do you mean another thread? I've not read through everything but I will.
No, I mean your forum profile doesn't have an email registered as visible, so unless you send me an email (you can click the email envelope under my avatar to do so) I can't send
you an email to alert you your turn is ready.
Your turn is ready now, btw! I'll be posting your initial information downthread though, after some discussion for new players about AzTank's move (and the US faction more generally -- and the Viet Cong's faction more generally!) I'll come back here and link down to it for your convenience once I've posted it.
http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=18567.msg492914#msg492914
Lots of posting to catch up on, so let's do this!
TESTING TURN ONE -- USA FACTION OVERVIEW
----------------------------------------
So, as noted, AzTank will be playing the US faction for our test, nominally teamed with whoever plays the ARVN faction for this test run. What does it mean to play the US?
1.) The US forces (except bases) have by far the most favorable combat rules. Not surprisingly!
2.) The US scores Victory Points by troops being home. And by Saigon being supported in South Vietnam areas, but having troops at home is a unique US scoring factor.
3.) The US has the third most numerous forces in the game, with 40 troops, 6 specs, and 6 bases. But they start with the fewest troops on the board (in a full game). They (and the ARVN) can have out-of-play troops, but the US alone can have casualties (reflecting their advanced hospital systems). Casualties in a roundabout way hurt their score, too.
4.) As mentioned previously, they don't need to ever spend resources on their abilities. (In effect they have bottomless resources so there's no point tracking the cost and expenditure.)
5.) They can often take command of ARVN forces. (Technically US specs are "irregulars", meaning native Vietnamese, like the Montagnards, who are being permanently led by US SpecForces.) This requires spending ARVN resources down to the limit of ARVN's Econ strength, which represents their ability to resist the US spending their money! -- but the ARVN gets most of its money in "Aid" from the US anyway.
6.) The US has the most permanent and "momentum" (semi-temporary) bonuses in the game, by far. But, each of those bonuses has an EEEVVILLL DARRRRK SIIIDDEEE! Which can be inflicted on the US by their enemies! (Including by the ARVN player!) So the US also has the most hurtful penalties in the game by far.
7.) Primarily to score, the US uses "Pacification" operations to increase support for the Saigon regime, and sends pieces home (to "Available") during the scoring rounds. For balancing purposes, the US can only do this after the victory check at the start of the scoring round! But this also means, if the game goes to the final Coup without a clear winner yet, the US can send a lot of troops home to rack up their points before the Final Score. There are also some events the US can play to accomplish similar scoring setups. This includes taking forces from "out of play" to "available"! -- basically building up new divisions back home.
8.) The US helps their ARVN teammate by doing military things to achieve COIN (Team South) Control in provinces and cities. This typically involves doing combat and strategic maneuvers; it also often involves bringing US troops out of Available and so lowering the US's score! On the other hand, the US can screw over the ARVN by evacuating areas and fighting ARVN "Patronage". (The ARVN has a game mechanic where they convert US "Aid" to "Patronage" -- they win by becoming more politically corrupt and less dependent on the US!)
9.) Like all four factions, the US gets a special event card, called "Pivotal Events", that only he can throw:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F922%2FejoNLp.png&hash=af4057fa03abe8dff6556e4aacb535bda0e991d6)
There are restrictions printed in red, so he can't play it on the first turn: specifically not until after at least the second Coup card is drawn; and not unless his Victory Point total is more than 40. (Also not if there's any Coup card upcoming, and not if he played the previous turn, as all four Pivotal Events are restricted.) Once those conditions are met, which could be pretty early in the game, he can opt to throw this on top of any active card, so long as the first player that turn (including possibly himself) hasn't started resolving his choice. (I think Pivotals can be declared once a choice has been declared, but I'll have to check. The rulebook text is a little unclear on this point: it only says the Pivotal thrower doesn't have to wait for the 1st player to make a choice on the new turn.)
This card makes the NVA choose two bases to sacrifice; reduces NVA resources by 15; and brings the US player's choice of forces back from one of those locations to Available (thus increasing his score). It also forces the NVA to skip the next turn.
Players can use Pivotal Cards to trump Pivotal Card events, too, except for the US; so the NVA could throw his Pivotal Card to beat this (if he still has it).
TEST TURN ONE -- USA OPTIONS
----------------------------
So, now that we've had that US faction overview, let's go back to look at AzTank's options. I'm posting this after he has already made his choices, but this will explain for newcomers what he chose between.
For that purpose, let's take a look at the Sequence block:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F922%2Fk9xt5l.png&hash=6a35f5ebf43514aee5884b2b920f7282a395b317)
This is at the bottom right corner of the mapboard, and gives a reminder of basic player options.
At the start of the game (and after each scoring round), all players start in the Eligible box; but the active card determines which player gets to make the first move this turn -- and only two players can move on any turn!
In this case, that means unless AzTank (playing the US) and/or B_C (playing the VC) choose to pass this turn, the other two players will have to wait until next turn. (Theoretically all four players could pass!) But whichever players don't pass, will be ineligible to play next turn.
So, as the player with first initiative this turn (thanks to the active card), Aztank's choices are:
1.) Pass. This is no small choice, because he can see the next card coming and he might see a way to take that event instead -- or prefer to avoid an enemy playing the upcoming event against him, compared to the currently active event! AzTank could try betting that the VC player will take the current event and so be ineligible to play next time, leaving the US with the initiative. As it happens, Az won't be doing this, so I haven't put his little cylinder marker there.
Any player who passes receives 1 resource, if they're Team North, or gives 3 resources to the ARVN if they're Team South. Someone desperate for cash might choose to pass for this reason, too -- though not likely the US unless they reeeaaallly want to move ARVN troops for some reason. Possibly to screw the ARVN player over and reduce his score! -- remember, only one player can win!
2.) The player with prime initiative (currently the US) can choose to do one of their general operations and not the card event. The US and ARVN share the same four general operation options, and to move things along I'll talk about those later.
3.) The "1st Faction" can also choose to do a general op plus a special activity (unless restricted by an event). Special activities are free (for the US regular ops don't cost anything either), and naturally they add to that player's power to affect the board! So why wouldn't a player do that every time instead of no special activity?! There's a reason but I'll have to get to it later.
4.) Last, the "1st Faction" player can choose to play one of the events on the active card. This is what AzTank chose to do, so I moved his tracking cylinder there in the snapshot.
Now, once a player decides to be the 1st Faction to act in a turn instead of passing, the second player to choose to act this turn instead of passing must follow the 1st Faction's choice over to the second column. In this case, B_C (playing the VC) will either choose to pass or play one of his general operations.
It basically goes like this: choosing a general op with no special activity, limits the next active player to also playing a general op with no special ability -- and further limits that next player to having only one area targeted for his op. (I'll get back to this soon.)
Choosing a general op plus a special ability, means the next active player has the option to play an event off the card instead of an operation with only one target area. Most players will go with the card events in that case, which are very powerful (but sometimes come with consequences).
Choosing to play a card event (as AzTank did), means the second active player this turn won't be limited to one target area for playing his operation, and the second player can add a free special action (unless otherwise restricted).
Once two players have chosen to act rather than pass this turn, no further players can choose to pass, and the one or two active players will be moved to the Ineligible box.
In summary:
AzTank was told by the active event card for Turn One that he had first choice about how to act this turn;
and he chose to act instead of to pass;
and he chose to play an event from the card. Next turn, he won't have the ability to act (or pass). The turn after that he'll be eligible again. (Assuming events don't alter this.)
Got it? Now let's look at what he chose to do.
TEST TURN ONE: USA'S CHOICE
---------------------------
Okay, AzTank chose to play an event off the active card this turn, effectively ceding his option to maybe play the upcoming event next turn. (Which is fine because the next event would only help the ARVN, and only one player can win: naturally Az wants to be the winner!)
What was this first turn's card? I'll repost with a zoom for convenience.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F922%2FuMfxwH.png&hash=1c86f2b8cc73ed1b31810f1e3ab3309689eeb4ca)
This card, like most event cards, has two options. (I think only Coup and Pivot Events have one.) The player choosing to play the event, can choose either option, shaded or unshaded; once chosen, that locks the other option out for the game. The "shade" is simply an easy visual way to distinguish between the two options; and sort of signals that the second option will usually hurt someone on Team South. The two options will be linked topically, in this case the fate of three Irregulars, US special force chips. If AzTank was stupid, he could choose the shaded option and so could take up to 3 of his Specs off the map and put them into the casualty box (to be dealt with later in various ways)!
Far more importantly, the ARVN player could choose this, too, if he thinks the US player is getting too far ahead! REMEMBER, ONLY ONE PLAYER CAN WIN!! But usually Team North players (NVA and VC) would choose the shaded option, which in this case would represent North forces (probably VC implied) ambushing and eliminating US specs, giving any South Nam populations in those affected areas (even cities, even Saigon!) a little more reason to think Team South is losing. This would affect the US and the VC scoring potential.
Naturally, AzTank chose the unshaded option. So he took up to 3 Specs from his Available box (where he happened to have 3), and deployed them on the map. There's a rule where (usually) if forces can be brought by and event or an op from available but the available box is empty, relevant forces can be teleported across the map any distance instantly to fulfill the event! (This can be a huge strategic redeployment move -- but risks instantly weakening an area.) AzTank can't do that this time, because he has the available specs; if he didn't have one or more available, he could move the unavailable ones around on the map but he'd have to seriously rethink whether he wanted to activate this event: of course, he could choose the event and then not move anyone, just go straight to the next part of the event, so as to block Banzai_Cat from getting access to a deadly event against him! -- the shaded version of this event would target US specs (Irregulars), not ARVN ones (Rangers).
(If no forces are "available" at home nor on the map, however, new ones can't be generated and deployed this way.)
Where can he put his Irregulars? The card says "outside the south", which is short for "in any of those dark green provinces on the left edge of the map", specifically Cambodia or Laos.
Az chooses to put one each in Southern Laos, Central Laos, and the Parrot's Beak (Cambodia):
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F923%2FGBzWB5.png&hash=081b222df5b8cdfcb0bf1705d81532f799792ee4)
That's just a quick snapshot for map context. (Note: the NVA score is wrong, it should be 8 not 4.)
The "LRRP" event card is meant to represent sending Long Range Recon Patrols out to the Ho Chi Minh trail to scout for air attacks, so the card also gives AzTank a free Air Strike operation.
Air Strikes are one of the three US special activities. Here they are, but I'll only talk about that one (Air Strike) one for now:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F921%2FyOmHvJ.png&hash=a4a7da7c6af92d9010f665839a6893852c1532bd)
AzTank can now choose any number of up to 6 active enemy forces on the map sharing any space (road, city, or province) with any of his forces (base, troop, or spec) or the ARVN player's, and wipe them off the map -- as long as those enemy pieces aren't underground, and as long as he first targets (not-underground) bases in any selected areas. Normally this special activity would require him to remove troops (the cubes, representing divisions) and specs first before bases, but this card's event actually forces him to remove bases first. (The text of the operation also signifies he can't target ARVN forces! -- they're on his team, so technically not the enemy.)
So, to be clear, Az doesn't have to choose those provinces where he placed his Irregulars. He can choose anywhere that members of the two Teams are opposing one another, as long as there are active targets (not underground) -- which on the first turn means he can't target any VC specs at all, as they're hidden. Nor can he target NVA specs, also hidden at the start of Turn One.
Annnnnnd... actually, that means he can't target anything other than bases on Turn One! -- because the NVA doesn't have any divisions in the field yet in whatever vague date of 1964 this turn represents, and the VC never will have any divisions at all. (One of Banzai's VC bases starts underground, too!) Sometimes, an operation means that the acting troops will detect hidden enemy troops and "activate" them; but neither the Air Strike nor this Event allows that detection. It's supposed to represent US spec-ops sneaking up on a mountain or somewhere and stealthily calling down the strikes, so they aren't working to find hidden forces. Similarly, neither are AzTank's Irregulars revealing themselves to do this! -- but then again, he can use any force from the US or ARVN factions to spot for his strikes!
Anyway, Az calls out the six bases in Parrot's Beak, Southern Laos, Central Laos (all where he just moved some Irregulars), Quang Tri, Binh Dinh and Pleiku. Those last three are northern provinces where he happens to be facing the VC -- in fact at game start, only the US is opposing any Team North in the field!
Az also has the option to degrade the Ho Chi Minh trail one notch, which he takes. (I honestly don't know why the US player wouldn't take it, unless this was a two player game and players were keeping the freaky political goofiness by each playing a faction from North and South!)
This very much nukes NVA's Victory points -- I instantly deduct 3, and he only had 8 to start with! Why? Because his points are scored by NVA bases and NVA control: and he started with exactly 4 controlled territories, and 4 bases (in those territories, not coincidentally). He still maintains control there until and unless Team South can figure a way to remove the troop balance in Team South's favor (which is hard on the western provinces, outside South Nam, and even harder in "North Vietnam" where Team South troops can't go at all!) Anyway, as shown in the new snaps, NVA's score has dropped to 5. This also happens to be how many resources the VC start the game able to do ops with, coincidentally, so there's a blue cylinder there, too.
Because Air Strikes on South Nam territory are so traumatic, the local populations each move one notch toward opposing Saigon; and since they started at neutral, now all three of those provinces passively oppose the regime! This improves the VC's score, but he also loses exactly three for losing a base in each province, so the result for Banzai_Cat will be a wash.
Whoever ends up playing ARVN for our test could have had his score hurt by this action! But as noted, those areas all started neutral so that player hasn't lost anything yet.
(And there are no significant pops in Laos and Cambodia to support or oppose Saigon in any practical way; they all have populations of 0, so even though I could put "passive oppose" on them for interest's sake it wouldn't mean anything for scoring.)
With that, AzTank's first turn comes to an end. I'll save the new snaps for introducing Banzai_Cat's turn, so he'll have a more convenient reference.
TEST TURN ONE -- VIET CONG INTRODUCTION
---------------------------------------
Since Banzai_Cat (or B_C) is our second player, he has randomly gotten assigned the second spot from the first turn's active card, and that's the Viet Cong, nominally teamed (as Team North) with whoever plays the NVA faction for this test run. What does it mean to play the VC?
1.) The VC forces are the weakest in the game; not only because they have no divisions only special forces (little light round circles), but also because they only have 39 total forces (30 specs and 9 bases). However, all their forces have stealth capability, including their Bases; and they can be highly destructive when not engaged in a conventional fight.
2.) The VC scores Victory Points by putting bases on the board (anywhere, even Cambodia or Laos I think if they can finagle it), and by moving South Nam provinces to oppose Saigon. They start with 27 Victory points, and need at least 36 to trigger a potential win. (AzTank's first move could have shifted B_C's current score, but as it happens there was no result: he's still at his starting 27.)
3.) The VC, like their teammates the NVA, can never permanently lose forces. Any lost forces (like the 3 bases Az nuked with Air Strikes on his first turn) go back to being "Available".
4.) The VC starts off as the poorest faction, with only 5 resources to do operations with. They can grow to have a higher income than the ARVN's economy, though (partly by hurting the ARVN economy). That takes work, but the VC player has plenty of time in the long game.
5.) The VC can't "control" a province or city; they can deny control to Team South (aka COIN, the counter-insurgents). But they start out well-lodged into a lot of South Vietnam, and wherever they are unopposed (which is several provinces) they start with active opposition against Saigon which generates them double victory points based on the province population! (AzTank's first move has handed another three provinces over to passive opposition, i.e. points for VC's score although those points were equally nerfed by other actions. For now: B_C, or even the NVA player, could magnify that lead!) Where they do start with opposition, they are only facing US forces, not the ARVN. But then again, the US has the strongest fighting capabilities in the game.
6.) The VC has nearly the fewest permanent and "momentum" (semi-temporary) bonuses in the game: only three. But, this also means they have only three hurtful penalties in the game.
7.) Primarily to score, the VC uses "Terror" operations and "Agitate" special activities to increase opposition for the Saigon regime, and "Rally" operations to build bases. But Rally takes time, because it needs VC Guerillas to turn into Bases, and requires no support in the areas to start with. This also means the VC player will be looking to capitalize on these kinds of (shaded) events; on the other hand, the VC player faces hard choices between reliably building up their score with ops and letting the ARVN or US use devastating events (like AzTank's "LRRP" deployment!)
8.) The VC helps their NVA teammate by rallying up and maneuvering specs into areas to help achieve NVA Control. Sometimes this involves using special events and abilities to whack US and ARVN troops without fighting: the VC can "attack" but aren't strong against Team South, and anyone attacking the US loses at least one of their own forces automatically from defensive fire! On the other hand, the VC can screw over the NVA by evacuating areas, too.
9.) The VC earns resources by the "Tax" special ability; but because this is a special ability the VC doesn't get to use it often! They also earn resources from how many bases they've got on the map during scoring rounds.
10.) The VC are the only faction not required to redeploy during the scoring rounds.
11.) The VC player will win the game if sharing any tie!
12.) Like all four factions, the VC player gets a special event card, called "Pivotal Events", that only he can throw:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F923%2Fg2Fjxx.png&hash=3c9e3b57d47f82e6518bfab5432b534c03d9cd29)
There are restrictions printed in red, so he can't play it on the first turn: specifically not until after at least the second Coup card is drawn; and not unless he has deployed more than 20 of his specs in South Nam: Cambodia, Laos, or North Nam don't count. (Also not if there's any Coup card upcoming, and not if he played the previous turn, as all four Pivotal Events are restricted.) Once those conditions are met, which could be pretty early in the game, he can opt to throw this on top of any active card, so long as the first player that turn (including possibly himself) hasn't started resolving his choice. (I think Pivotals can be declared once a choice has been declared, but I'll have to check. The rulebook text is a little unclear on this point: it only says the Pivotal thrower doesn't have to wait for the 1st player to make a choice on the new turn.)
This card has three stages: first, any hidden VC specs (must) run as many Terror operations (at no cost) as possible (until Terror cards run out, VC player's choice on where to put the ops); second, 6 VC specs (must) be placed in any cities of VC player's choice (moving them around the map if he runs out of Available pieces -- this partly represents the NVA's secret plan to neuter the VC a little); and third, all VC and/or NVA specs must launch attacks where they share any spaces (provinces, cities, or LoCs) with Team South forces. If attacking US Troops (cubes) or Bases results, VC will be the ones suffering the attrition losses if possible. (Also partly representing the NVA's secret plan to neuter the VC a little!)
Players can use Pivotal Cards to trump Pivotal Card events, too, except for the US; but the VC Pivot Card trumps any other Pivots!
TEST TURN ONE: VC OPTIONS
-------------------------
So, now that we've had that VC faction overview, let's go back to look at Banzai_Cat's options. I'm posting this before he has made his choices, but this will explain for newcomers what he can chose between.
For that purpose, let's take a look at the Sequence block:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F922%2Fk9xt5l.png&hash=6a35f5ebf43514aee5884b2b920f7282a395b317)
This is at the bottom right corner of the mapboard, and gives a reminder of basic player options. I've put the player markers in descending order for this turn (based on what the active card dictated), and AzTank's US faction has already gone.
B_C, being the VC, gets the next choice of action, and being second initiative he has fewer options. He can pass and be eligible to try for next Turn's event -- and he has the first initiative on the upcoming card!
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F922%2FsU6tvx.png&hash=5fa07668baa26991ee557f4e21ed0cfaf5a85b66)
There's the upcoming card again for Banzai's convenience. If he opts for an operation on this first turn instead, he'll have to risk the ARVN player using that event -- but, that particular event only helps the ARVN, it doesn't hurt the VC (or the NVA). There's some chance that Banzai's NVA ally will get to play that event instead, so Banzai might want to take full advantage of his operational opportunities this turn to set up VC troops in some cities (implicitly preparing to "bomb the Brinks Hotel" or the equivalent thereof).
This leads to VC's other choice, which is to follow AzTank's lead on the sequence track: since Az chose to use one of the events on this turn's card (the one that helped him, obviously), Banzai can consequently choose to fully play one of his four general operations (affecting any or all valid targets), plus any valid subsequent special activity.
Here is the VC general operation sheet for Banzai's reference:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F924%2FCtv2PS.png&hash=b5327dc4efef78097c779c1f31c3842d0c7505be)
Since B_C is a vet of the game I won't explain all those unless he asks for some clarification; I'll only explain what he chooses (unless he passes). But he must choose either to pass or to play a full op (plus a special activity at his discretion).
If he passes, he gets one resource; if he ops, he has to spend at least one resource (and he only has 5 to start with). But -- really, he might as well play an op: passing to get initiative on the upcoming Brinks Hotel event only works if he has VC in any cities, which he doesn't right now (at game start). Whereas if he ops, then he can not only put VC into some cities (by Rallying would be the safest method), he could follow that up with a Subversion special ability and remove one or two ARVN cubes! Then he's prepared to take advantage if he lucks out and his NVA ally can and does play the Brinks Hotel event next Turn.
So, Banzai, here are the two map halves for reference:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F924%2FRqBypn.png&hash=df96caf59beb50243c60dbac45295c6bc64a6f28)
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To recap AzTank's move, he put his remaining 3 specs into Cambodia and Laos, and then Air Struck 6 bases off the map, including three of yours (Quang Tri, Binh Dinh and Pleiku) thus also ramping up those province to passive opposition to Saigon (thus in your favor).
(Note: I should have reduced the NVA score from 8 to 4, not to 5. This will be fixed in the next snapshot whenever B_C makes his choice.)
That's it for now until B_C makes his test move.
Bumpity bump-bump, bumpity bump-bump, hope for VC go...! :))
Okay, Banzai_Cat has chosen to pass this turn, so I'll make adjustments and then introduce the NVA player next. (Probably me since the NVA player has taken some hard licks out of the gate.)
If anyone wants to play NVA or ARVN, drop me a line!
To clarify: in order to move the game along, and give a fourth person time to choose the ARVN, I'm adjusting the turn order so that ARVN will go last and I'll take the initially hurt NVA faction -- for now. If someone still wants to play them, I'll move aside and you can take over the position!
If no one takes up one or both factions by Monday, I'll take ARVN, too: both AzTank and B_C are veterans of the game, so having a newbie playing teams against himself won't be too hurtful to them even if (very theoretically speaking) I thus double my chance of winning. This is a legitimate 3 player option, unless we play one faction as a bot. However, if anyone wants to take either the NVA and/or ARVN position I'll step aside.
TURN ONE -- NVA INTRODUCTION
----------------------------
With the Viet Cong (played by Banzai_cat) passing -- rather surprisingly to me -- that means the NVA faction has an opportunity to play a full operation this turn, plus even a special activity!
Before I introduce the NVA faction, though, let me clarify how B_C moved.
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B_C, the Viet Cong, is the blue cylinder, and he passed. So I moved his cylinder to the pass box. (Ignore the "Coup card" chit for now, that comes later with scoring.) Consequently, I'll also be moving up his resource marker one notch on the track around the board.
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Providentially, that corner of the board also holds my "available" box, and the "Trail" track (which is especially important for me). More on that in a minute.
It's important to distinguish between the square chits on the border track, which designate our victory points, and the cylinders which designate our available operational resources. B_C's score is currently a lot higher than his available resources, which is a reflection of his faction, the Viet Cong, having established themselves pretty well on the map before gamestart -- but they're inherently the poorest faction (not being a nation-state per se), so they don't have much operational cash. We'll discuss my characteristics in an introductory detail in a moment. Back to the turn track.
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I have gone ahead and moved my red cylinder to reflect my choice not to pass this turn. I'll explain why after my faction introduction. Since only two factions may act on any turn (normally, a scoring turn being abnormal), that means the ARVN faction must pass. However, since this turn the ARVN didn't choose to pass, they won't be getting any resources for making that choice. (Just to recall, in order to move things along and keep the ARVN slot open for another player to join late, I shifted the turn order so that they would play last. Normally ARVN would have played next, due to the order printed on the active card this turn.)
With that upkeep done, let's introduce the North Vietnamese Army. What does it mean to play the NVA?
1.) The NVA forces are the most numerous in the game. The ARVN have more divisions, but not more military divisions -- half their Troops are Police divisions. The NVA make up the lack in "cubes" with lots of available bases and spec-forces (called "Guerillas", as with the Viet Cong). They also thus have the second strongest military in the game, (distantly) after the US. Their bases have stealth capability, too, like the VC!
2.) The NVA scores Victory Points by putting bases (anywhere) on the board (even Saigon if they can finagle it); and by controlling provinces, something their Viet Cong teammates can't do. (They can help me control provinces, indirectly by denying control to Team South. VC forces count against COIN control, but they don't count in favor of NVA control: I have to outnumber VC troops, too.) The NVA starts with only 8 Victory points, but they also only need 19 or more to trigger a potential win. AzTank's first move raked back my Vic-points, though, down to 5, by air striking most of my bases off the board in the first turn! Fortunately...
3.) ...the NVA is the only faction in the game to have an almost-invulnerable province on the map, helpfully called "North Vietnam" although really it's just the southernmost NV province (for now, muahahaha! >:D ) Team South forces cannot enter it, although it can be the target of events; therefore, although I could theoretically lose control of it by moving out all my troops (even if Banzai moved some in, he can't hold control of a province by himself), Team South can't ever control it. Also fortunately...
4.) ...the NVA, like their teammates the VC, can never permanently lose forces. Any lost forces (like the 3 bases Az nuked with Air Strikes on his first turn) go back to being "Available".
5.) The NVA starts off as the second poorest faction, with only 10 resources to do operations. But like the VC, our operational costs are cheap, so we start out being able to do more. Which is good, because we also start out with the second-least presence on the board -- or arguably even the least, since we're the only faction with divisions who don't start with any divisions deployed!
6.) The NVA earns resources by putting bases in Laos and Cambodia (not in "North Vietnam"!) We also earn resources by keeping the Ho Chi Minh Trail up and running -- which right now is a problem, because AzTank burned the trail back to 0 as a side-effect of his Air Strike! This is a big problem because it means my bases on the west border of the map can't generate resources -- IF I HAD ANY BASES BUT I DON'T ANYMORE! You may be able to suspect a theme for why I chose to act instead of pass this turn... Anyway, the concept here is that the NVA has to keep the trail running in order to operate in South Vietnam; we're a nation state, we have the resources, we just can't get them anywhere useful without the Trail. If the US and ARVN concentrated together on shutting me down, I could run entirely out of operational resources to do anything in the game aside from occasional event cards.
7.) The NVA has only 5 permanent and "momentum" (semi-temporary) bonuses in the game; but that's the second most after the US! This also means we have only five hurtful penalties in the game.
8.) Primarily to score, the NVA uses "Rally" operations to place bases, and just about anything else to increase troops in provinces and cities in order to take control. Unfortunately, Rally takes time, because it needs NVA Guerillas to turn into Bases, and requires that there be no Support (for the Saigon regime) in the areas to start with.
9.) The NVA helps their VC teammate by... well, we don't have a direct method for doing that! Yay for asynchronicity! Using events that help the VC I guess?? On the contrary, we can use our special "Infiltrate" ability to turn VC forces (including bases, including tunneled bases) into NVA forces!
10.) The NVA gets beaten by everyone except the US in tie situations.
11.) Like all four factions, the NVA player gets a special event card, called "Pivotal Events", that only he can throw:
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There are the usual restrictions (can't play if a Coup is upcoming; can't play until after two Coups have happened, so basically not in 1964), plus the NVA needs more Troops (i.e. red cubes, divisions) than US Troops (green cubes) on the map. (Bases and specs don't count for this purpose.) The NVA player will get all the free "Marches" he wants, plus some extra moves on roads without enemy opposition, and then all NVA divisions must Attack somewhere -- but they attack for free (and can bring along NVA specs of course.) This pivotal event can trump the US pivotal "Linebacker II" event, but the VC and ARVN can both trump this.
TEST TURN ONE -- NVA ACTION!
----------------------------
So, on to my turn. I have a long row to hoe, made longer by AzTank's fortunate first turn draw and wise application: he zeroed out the Trail, and blasted all my Trail bases off the map, so both one way and another I have no economy generation now!
I do have a resource stockpile, and my operational costs are cheap, but obviously I need to be putting bases back on the map pronto. And fixing the Trail.
This simplifies my choice to pass and hope for the upcoming event next turn because I can already see on that card (1) it won't positively help me; (2) it only helps the VC in areas that Banzai_Cat declined to build up this turn (to be fair he probably expected the ARVN to claim that event, thus not me anyway); and (3) it's pretty unlikely the ARVN player won't play that Event, so even if it helped me (but it doesn't) I'd be almost certainly delaying my turn for less opportunity than I have now.
And what I have now, is the opportunity to select and fully play an operation on as many valid targets as I can pay for, plus a free special activity. Why?
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Because when AzTank (as the green faction) chose to play the event, anyone taking 2nd initiative would be slotted into choosing a faction op; and Banzai (as the blue faction) passed his turn. And God knows I need to put bases back on the west border!
So, here the NVA general operation options:
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I won't spend time explaining them all -- the only ones I need to concentrate on, are anything that gets me (1) bases; (2) guerillas to make bases with later; (3) repairing the Trail so that any bases on the west border can mean something; and (4) divisions.
Fortunately, all four of those come down to one operation and one special activity: "Rally" and "Infiltrate".
Rally has a couple of options in itself. If a target area already has at least one NVA base, I can add specs in it equal to the number of its bases plus the trail value. However, the only legitimate target for that option would be "North Vietnam", and I'd rather be making bases and growing guerillas elsewhere.
Option 2 involves putting 1 "available" spec (I currently have 8 ) into any population area (not a LoC) that doesn't support Saigon. That option covers a lot of the board at the moment! But I'll only be choosing two targets for this, because I'm going to be spending most of my resource points instead doing option 3.
Option 3 lets me convert two of my specs already in any province or city which doesn't support Saigon, into a NVA base. This is the one I'm going to mainly go with.
There are currently four provinces (no cities) with at least two specs in them: The Parrot's Beak (in Cambodia), Central and South Laos ("North Laos" is off the map and out of play), and North Vietnam. The latter already has a base, but any population area can support a maximum of two bases -- by any faction! Anyway, I need the points and the income later.
So out of my 10 starting resources:
4 resources to convert 2 specs to bases in the aforementioned territories.
2 resources to add 1 spec to "Northeast Cambodia" and "The Fishhook". NVA pieces there outnumber all other pieces (including VC), namely no other pieces, so I achieve NVA Control there.
This adds 6 Victory Points (NVA Control + NVA Bases) back to my score, reaching a total of 11: 8 points shy of triggering a win condition!
On top of that, "Rally" allows me to improve the Trail once for 2 more resources, which I do.
This leaves me 2 resources left over, with which I'll try to improve the Trail again if I can on some future turn before the scoring Coup arrives.
Finally, for my free Special Action! My options here depend on what main operation I chose, so (refer to the snapshot to see how I know this) I can choose "Bombard" or "Infiltrate". Bombard only works if I have a significant number of divisions in a province, though -- and right now I have exactly no divisions!
"Infiltrate" helps fix that, though. It gives me two options, one of which is to flip VC forces (even tunneled bases!) into being NVA; but I would have to outnumber the VC in an area first, which I don't, anywhere (we don't even share the same areas yet) and besides I don't want to hamper them right now. The main option is to use the Trail and my Bases to put divisions on the board, yaaay! Specifically, I can choose up to two areas, so long as each area has at least one NVA base, and put as many divisions in each targeted area as the number of my bases in that area plus the Trail status -- and then convert as many specs in those areas as I want with equal numbers of NVA divisions. This is totally free by the way!
So I could put three divisions into "North Vietnam", because I have 2 bases there + Trail status 1; and add another division because I have one spec there I can upgrade! That spec isn't doing anything for me in "NV"; besides, the specs go back into my Available pile for later.
So yeah, I'm doing that. :D
Southern Laos borders the most "South Nam" areas, so that will be my second target for "Infiltrate": I put 2 divisions in (1 base + 1 trail) and then upgrade its spec to a 3rd division.
With that, Turn One ends! Yay!
I'll move the VC and ARVN markers out of the "pass box"; but the US and NVA markers into the "Ineligible" box; and update the two map snapshots:
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TURN TWO -- VIET CONG INITIATIVE
--------------------------------
With processes going reasonably well so far, I have decided to shuffle our first (randomly shuffle-drawn) Coup card into the Turn deck, representing the first half of 1964.
We already could see the upcoming card for this Turn, so I'll repost it here:
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Banzai_Cat, playing the VC, passed last turn; and the ARVN didn't get a chance to choose an action at all. So they're the two up for Turn Two, and the card (reading left to right above the photo) tells us the VC will get first initiative.
What will be the upcoming card?
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Oy. I promise, that was a random draw: we had a 1 in 5 chance of getting it. (A 2 in 7 chance of having drawn it in the first or second turn!)
A coming coup card means next Turn will be a scoring round; it also will change the special bonus the ARVN player gets for doing various things -- until the next successful coup! But that will be at least five turns later, no earlier than the second half of 1964.
(Unlike the main event cards, Coup cards aren't dated, and are meant to be randomly assigned; but someone could 'date' the events on the coups to the proper periods and shuffle them randomly in somewhere appropriate.)
What this means for Banzai, as the VC, and for whoever the ARVN player turns out to be, is that this turn will be a Monsoon: which will limit various options they could take.
Banzai, being a vet, knows the options, but I'll recount them briefly for any new players or visitors:
1.) Banzai could pass again. He doesn't know what the event coming after the coup will be, and all players will be eligible for it anyway, so all he'd get from this is an extra resource.
2.) He can play the "Brinks Hotel" card. However, the unshaded option on the card will only help the ARVN (not the VC); and while the shaded event would help him he doesn't have any specs in any cities to capitalize on it! He could play the event anyway, as a non-effect, just to keep the ARVN player from getting it, but then the ARVN could play a full faction op plus a special event (Monsoon permitting).
3.) He could play a full operation for the VC faction without a free special activity. This would lock the ARVN out of playing the event, too, and limit how far they could play a matching faction operation. Some operations are going to be limited or excluded by the Monsoon anyway! -- but as it happens, Monsoons only keep the Viet Cong from Marching. Banzai can do anything else.
4.) He could play a full operation plus a free special action, none of which are hampered (for the VC) by the Monsoon. If he does this, the ARVN will have the option of playing the "Brinks Hotel" event, or doing a limited faction op.
Here's the current map again for reference, Banzai:
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Fixing an error in NVA scoring: while their victory points do count provinces and cities under NVA control, this only counts for population areas in South Vietnam, in effect provinces and cities that have population numbers greater than zero printed in squares below the "support/control" boxes. Nope, not even the "North Vietnam" province counts! -- it has zero population that might even theoretically support Saigon! Ditto for any of the west-border provinces (in Laos and Cambodia).
Consequently, while the bases there still count for score (and especially for econ purposes in Laos and Cambodia -- apparently not in North Vietnam though, which is more than a little weird but probably nixed for fine balance purposes), and while they do have control markers which may count for other technical purposes; for scoring purposes I cannot count any of the current "control" areas.
Therefore, I have adjusted NVA's score chit back to 5. AzTank had actually wiped my score back to 1! -- i.e., because I only had one base left on the board. He took off three bases, I put back four, net total five bases on the board, so a score of 5 bases plus 0 South Nam population controls equals 5 total score.
Note that the South Nam province of Phuoc Long, which currently has no forces in it at all, also doesn't have enough population to count for affecting "support" or "control". So it might as well be in Cambodia or Laos for this purpose.
Future map updates will show the fixed NVA score.
While we're waiting for Banzai_cat, I'll take the opportunity to get the last piece of faction introduction out of the way, which could also be helpful if anyone (Panzerseast?) is thinking of playing them.
TURN TWO -- INTRODUCTION TO THE ARVN
------------------------------------
Our final faction for the game is the Army of the Republic of South Vietnam, aka "ARVN". However, this is somewhat misleading because the player actually plays the government, less than the military arm, and rather more the national government than any other player -- for the natural reason that the war is being fought for governmental control of the territory they claim. Consequently, this faction should really be called GVN, the Government of Vietnam! -- and on at least a few event cards that's the acronym used (including the "Brinks Hotel" event this turn). Everywhere else, whether on cards or the map or references or rulebooks, the faction is called the ARVN. So for consistency's sake, I'll stick with that: what does it mean to play the ARVN?
If the NVA has the most conventional rules in the game, ARVN has the most variations to the rules.
1.) ARVN forces, being one of the two most local government, are technically tied with NVA as the most numerous; but they have the fewest available bases in the game (only 3, and two of those start out of play entirely), and the fewest available special forces (6, like the US, but three of those start out-of-play entirely). ARVN has the most divisions (cubes), at 60, but half of those are only large paramilitary police groups: useful for a lot of "divisional" activities in the game, but not really for fighting. The ARVN police divisions can fight, but use the worst results in the game -- and while ARVN regular divisions are technically a match for the NVA in strength, they lack the NVA's ability to fight well in mountain provinces. Beyond those problems, a full ten divisions of their regular military divisions start the game completely out of play, not available for deployment! Due to the nature of the conflict, though, the ARVN starts with by far the most forces on the board -- mostly in the cities.
2.) The ARVN scores Victory Points in an unusual way. They need control of "populated" provinces and cities (ones with enough population that might consider supporting the regime), and control established by US forces works just as well; so if any number of US and/or ARVN forces outnumber any combination of Team North in such an area, it gets a "COIN control" marker. In this respect the ARVN is competing against the NVA, except with the advantage that Team South can cooperate in achieving this while the Viet Cong can only help deny COIN control, not help provide NVA control!
The other way the ARVN score victory points, is by scoring Patronage. They start with 15 Patron points. But Patron points are (pretty much?) only worth scoring. In a way they're actually poison, because Patronage basically counts as political corruption!! :O So when the ARVN does things to increase Patronage, they tend to also reduce support and/or Aid. Reducing support for the regime, indirectly hurts the regime in various ways -- and helps the Viet Cong player! -- but technically, reflecting the ruthless regimes struggling for control in South Vietnam, the ARVN don't really care whether population centers support them so long as the ARVN has control of them! The US allies, ladies and gentlemen. {clap clap} {clap}
Speaking of Aid...
3.) ...the ARVN is the richest team in the game that tracks its budget. (The US is so rich that they don't have to track expenses, and so in effect their forces operate for free!) But there's a catch: only 15 points of resource, at most, come from South Vietnam's own capabilities. ARVN starts the game with this maximum Econ, which is why there's an "Econ" chip on the 15 point mark of the track going around the board. These points come directly from controlling the fifteen most important "Lines of Communication" on the board, almost all of which are worth 1 point. These are the major highways radiating out of cities, marked like "double lane highways" on the map and often acting as boundaries between provinces, as well as creating a coastal road from Hue in the north (traditionally the capital of unified Vietnam) and Saigon in the south. In the far south, the Mekong river branches also count as 1-point LoCs; except for the branch between Can Tho and Saigon which also has a double-lane highway and so grants 2 points. (There is no practical distinction between LoC types otherwise; and some LoCs are worth 0 points, like the southernmost road in the game, between Can Tho and the coastal city of Bac Lieu.)
LoCs (as explained long ago) are special map areas without population to affect "support" and "control", which also cannot support base placement by any faction, but which otherwise can have divisions and spec-ops in them, and which also grant some special move bonuses between areas. No one starts in any LoCs, and none of the players have moved into them yet. As along as no one is in a point-value LoC, and as long as the route hasn't been sabotaged, ARVN gets its economic benefit. ARVN also gets the benefit if the number of Team South (US and/or ARVN, "COIN") forces outnumbers Team North (NVA and/or VC, "insurgent") forces in a LoC, and if the LoC hasn't been sabotaged. Otherwise, ARVN's potential economic income per scoring-turn goes down point by point.
Economic power also limits how much of ARVN's resources the US can spend ordering ARVN forces around! -- the US player cannot spend ARVN's money any lower than wherever the "Econ" chip currently sits. That isn't actually theft, though, because this represents the US spending money they gave to the GVN in the first place through Aid.
Wait, I still haven't talked about Aid yet, have I...?
4.) The ARVN faction gets its other income in the game from United States support, which is tracked as "AID". This starts out at 15, along with Econ and Patronage, and there's also a chit to track it. "Aid" (a little roughly speaking) reflects money that either the ARVN or the US can spend on operations that use ARVN forces.
But there's a catch. However corrupt the US government is (and was) by US moral standards, we're significantly less corrupt and less tolerant of it than in many other countries, and South Vietnam is essentially a military junta against which the communist North Vietnam is struggling to rebel! In fact historically, North Vietnam wanted to model itself on the United States constitutional republic, and wanted (and really expected) the US to be its ally! -- but for realpolitik treaty reasons, originally having to do with respecting our World War 2 ally France, we turned them down and found ourselves supporting a succession of oppressive regimes. To get past this, the NVA made deals with communist superpowers (mainly Russia, but also their hated enemy China) for support, which meant also trying to live by communist standards to keep that support. By association, capitalistic standards became associated with the two traitorous opponents, the ARVN... and the US.
That said, the US does want South Vietnam to clean up its act and be good to its people. So game mechanics will often involve reducing increasing Aid if Patronage is reduced. But the ARVN needs Patronage points to win! -- consequently, to win, the ARVN actually has to reduce Aid from the US to fight against NVA and VC insurgency.
5.) The ARVN, like their teammates the US, can permanently lose forces: losses during fighting put them "out of play", not (usually) sent back to "available". (Events can bring them back into play of course.) Unlike the US, the ARVN don't have the advanced field medic technology to treat some of their destroyed forces as recoverable "casualties".
6.) The ARVN don't start out with "active support" anywhere, but they do start with a lot of COIN control (and the victory points those provide), and with no trivial amount of "passive support" for the regime. While support for the regime doesn't help them directly in score, and technically the ARVN doesn't need it at all in order to win, it does help in other ways.
7.) The ARVN has the fewest permanent and "momentum" (semi-temporary) bonuses in the game: only two. But, this also means they have only two hurtful penalties in the game.
8.) Primarily to score, the ARVN uses "Govern" operations (and some related special events) to increase patronage, and otherwise a bunch of troop movements to take and secure COIN Control.
9.) They can help their US ally, and indirectly help themselves, by Pacification operations to increase support. (This also can help COIN control.) However, "governing" reduces support in areas! -- so the primary means of increasing Patronage victory points for ARVN also reduces Vicpoints for the US! (It also reduces Aid from the US, giving the ARVN more difficulty in affording operations.)
10.) The ARVN player will win any tie or pivotal trump event, as long as the other player isn't the Viet Cong.
11.) There's a special box on the game board called "RVN Leader". This starts out as Duong Van Minh, and provides the ARVN player with a special ongoing bonus ability -- initially, each ARVN "Train" operation increases "Aid" by 5 points. Out of the six coups in the game, 4 feature new governments taking over the regime, and when that happens the new Coup cards go here after their scoring Turns instead of being discarded. When that happens, the ARVN player gets new ongoing bonuses, typically ones that reflect tension with the US. (Two of the coups will "fail", and this doesn't change the current regime; the "fail" card gets slid under the active regime card. Scoring still happens though.)
12.) Like all four factions, the ARVN player gets a special event card, called "Pivotal Events", that only he can throw:
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This features the usual restrictions: can't play it if a coup is upcoming (like now), and can't play until there have been at least two scoring turns (whether the coups were successful or not). It also needs at least 20 US Troops (i.e. divisions, green cubes) on the map.
The event, unlike the other Pivotal events, doesn't involve attacking but rather building up potential to do things: all out-of-play ARVN forces go to their Available; 4 ARVN cubes can be placed out of Available anywhere on the map (or teleported around the map anywhere if no more troops are available anymore); ARVN gets 12 more resources to do operations in the near future; and ARVN Aid increases by 12 thus improving longer-term income for doing operations. (And for diverting Aid to corrupt Patronage for the win! :D )
With this, we've introduced all the factions, so once Banzai_cat (as the Viet Cong) chooses his action for this turn, it'll be the ARVN's turn. If no one else has arrived yet to play them, I'll take their slot as well, playing the NVA and the ARVN against each other, muahahahahaaaa. 3:>
Nice! I'll definitely be following this. I've got the first 3 games in the COIN series, and I'm trying to score this one and/or Falling Sky. :D
You're certainly welcome to join in with a faction!
Yeah, I'll be getting both "Falling Sky" (and its expansion whenever that comes out) and "Pendragon". I'd get this, but only if GMT ever reprints. (I suppose I could speed that up by registering for a P500 copy...)
Maybe AB should take over the VC; I'm having trouble keeping up. :-[
I would be pretty amused by a two player game where the two players were each running opposite teammates! :D ;D
Oh, wait, you meant Arctic Blast. I read that as an abbreviation for AzTank somehow. :crazy2:
What say thou, Az? Care to play both the US and the VC? While I take the NVA and the ARVN? We'd have some amusing political goofiness going on, working at cross-purposes not only to each other but to ourselves!
(Note: you could still hand off the VC to someone who wanted to play them, of course.)
Quote from: JasonPratt on January 10, 2017, 09:28:36 AM
I would be pretty amused by a two player game where the two players were each running opposite teammates! :D ;D
Oh, wait, you meant Arctic Blast. I read that as an abbreviation for AzTank somehow. :crazy2:
What say thou, Az? Care to play both the US and the VC? While I take the NVA and the ARVN? We'd have some amusing political goofiness going on, working at cross-purposes not only to each other but to ourselves!
(Note: you could still hand off the VC to someone who wanted to play them, of course.)
Hi Jason, sure I can take the VC and US. But I think the preferred split is ARVN / US then VC / NVA. I am good with either.
Thanks, AT.
Sorry, Jason. :(
I'm fine with either, of course; it's just that having the teams split would add more of the weird political flavor.
How about, whoever puts in a VC move first gets to play their faction? :D
TURN TWO VC ACTION
------------------
Well, at this point it's a two-player match, and while I'd like to see the weirdness involved in antithetical teams (VC + US; ARVN + NVA), I guess I'll go with the VC to move things along.
So! -- Banzai didn't move anyone into cities last turn so that the NVA could activate his card, but the NVA really needed to rebuild after AzTank's opening Long Range Recon Alpha Strike as the US. That's true for the VC, too, so meh.
I don't really care if AzTank uses the "Brinks Hotel" event, since it won't hurt either of my factions (only help him); so I'm going to choose a full op plus a special action -- specifically I want that Tax special action!
Rally allows me to do any of four things, in as many valid targets as I want, so long as I can afford the 1 Resource per action.
1.) Place 1 spec anywhere on the map that isn't supporting Saigon (and isn't an LoC).
2.) In any area without Saigon support but with a VC base, I can flip all specs there back underground. Useless at the moment, and my specs will all flip underground anyway during the upcoming scoring phase.
3.) In any area without Saigon support but with a VC base, I can place specs up to that area's number of VC bases plus that area's population.
4.) In any area without Saigon support but with at least two of my specs, I can replace them with a base.
The choice between option 3 and option 4 is actually quite hard (I can do both of course -- the question is how much of one and/or the other); for reasons I don't want to talk about since strategy is the only secret thing in this game!
However, in the end I choose to spend four resources Rallying up my four bases, so that I will have more specs to do things with later. So:
* Reduce my resource marker on the outer track from 5 to 1 (= 4 spent)
* Put 3 specs (1 base + 2 pop) in Quang Tin; 2 specs in Quang Duc (1 + 1); 2 specs in Binh Tuy (1 + 1); and 3 specs in Tay Ninh (1 + 2). As usual, the specs enter play 'underground'. Az knows they're there somewhere, but can't target them by normal means.
(None of those provinces have COIN forces, so increasing my forces in any of them can't shift out COIN control. Nor can I take control for the NVA.)
That finishes the Rally. For my special action option, I'm taking Tax. I can choose up to four areas, whether LoC or province or city, so long as they don't have COIN control and they have at least one underground VC spec. I activate one spec in those chosen areas, meaning it's visible and can be targeted now, and take twice the pop level in resources from each targeted area -- or only the "econ value" of any targeted LoC. (Not double the value there, but also those targets wouldn't suffer the next effect; besides I haven't moved onto any LoCs yet anyway.) Last, the taxed area move one notch toward Saigon support.
So in order:
* I flip a spec in Kien Giang; Kien Phong; Tay Ninh; and Quang Tin. The latter two areas have a base and lots of specs still hidden; the first two areas only have a VC spec. They each have a pop of 2.
* I take 4 resources from each area (because each has a pop of 2). 4x4 = 16, so move my resource marker up to 1 + 16 = 17.
* Increase support for Saigon one notch in each province. They all started with Active Opposition to the regime, so they all shift up to Passive Opposition. AzTank's US faction won't benefit yet.
* Each of those areas was giving me 2 pop x 2 active opposition = 4 victory points. Notching up to passive support means they're only giving me 2 vic-points now, so I've lost 2 points x 4 provinces = 8 points: I must reduce my score chit by 8 to 19. That's a pretty big drop, but I should be able to recoup those points with a profit later using the new resources.
Here are the two adjusted map halves, with changes marked (and also the NVA score error fixed). Green up arrows show support for Saigon rising (which will help the US score eventually, but not yet); little blue dots with "n" are newly placed VC specs; I didn't have any active specs before, so the ones with stars are newly active; and I've put some blue movement arrows showing my resources and score shifting on the track:
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The lower half shows my turn marker in the box for the full op plus special activity.
Consequently, the ARVN player (presumably AzTank unless or until someone else takes over!) has three choices:
1.) Pass the turn and pick up 3 extra resources. This would be silly, but possible.
2.) Play a limited faction operation with no special activity. Since we're in a Monsoon (i.e. before a scoring turn), he isn't allowed to do a Sweep, but he can do any of the other three main ops (Train, Patrol, or Assault). However, as a "limited op" he can only choose one target area for the action to 'land on' so to speak -- although he may choose any number of valid areas capable of focusing that action into that one area. For example, if he chose Patrol, he could only choose one LoC or City as a target for the action, but he could move any number of Troops or Police (his yellow or orange cubes) from areas adjacent to his target area, so long as he pays for the move. (For a Patrol he only has to pay 3 resource total anyway.) Normally he could do a Patrol for any number of target LoCs or Cities. (Normally he'd also be trying to activate my specs in the way, whether VC and/or NVA, but I don't have any in cities or LoCs yet. But he could still do it for a limited strategic movement.)
3.) He could choose one of the events for this turn's card "Brinks Hotel", which hasn't been claimed yet. For reference, here's that card again.
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And here's the Coup coming up, which will also provide an ongoing event affecting the ARVN player:
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Second initiative now goes to the ARVN, to end out this turn!
Quote from: JasonPratt on January 09, 2017, 11:02:33 AM
You're certainly welcome to join in with a faction!
Yeah, I'll be getting both "Falling Sky" (and its expansion whenever that comes out) and "Pendragon". I'd get this, but only if GMT ever reprints. (I suppose I could speed that up by registering for a P500 copy...)
Nah, a bit late to be figuring out the ins and outs of how this particular COIN title works. ;D
Heck, at this rate I may end up playing a four-way game against myself for the lulz. ::) :nerd:
Sorry, I can generally get to this once per day, but was doing some work related travel.
For the ARVN turn, will take the event for the 4 Patronage
So noted! -- will update soon.
TURN TWO -- ARVN ACTION (mistaken interpretation by both me and Aztank, so revised downthread)
-----------------------
AzTank as the ARVN chooses (a little surprisingly to me) to pass, picking up the three resources.
Edited to remove the final results of the turn until later; leaving behind my mistake about what he meant so that subsequent posts will make sense! Sort of. ;)
Quote from: JasonPratt on January 13, 2017, 10:32:18 PM
TURN TWO -- ARVN ACTION
-----------------------
AzTank as the ARVN chooses (a little surprisingly to me) to pass, picking up the three resources.
This ends Turn Two with no further map change.
Sorry, ARVN took the event, did not pass. On the card, ARVN has the option to take 4 patronage. Patronage is the victory point "air" that ARVN needs...
Oh God, I'm retarded :hide: :crazy2: Shouldn't have done that late at night before sleeping!
Will fix prior post accordingly, and adjust gameboard.
Quote from: ArizonaTank on January 14, 2017, 01:34:30 PM
Sorry, ARVN took the event, did not pass. On the card, ARVN has the option to take 4 patronage. Patronage is the victory point "air" that ARVN needs...
Hm, I'll check when I get home, but I think the text means you can convert 4 Patronage points to Resources -- not pick up 4 Patronage. The theory of the unshaded version of the event is that the bombing of the Brinks Hotel (or some equivalent) helps the US and the government of (South) Vietnam, the GVN, reconcile to cooperate with each other better.
Adding Patronage runs
against that idea, since that represents corruption in the ARVN which the US opposes (usually by reducing Aid) -- and the ARVN often increases Patronage by diverting Resources to it. Converting
Patronage to resources runs in favor of the US and ARVN cooperating more.
The official Playbook entry on this card doesn't clarify the interpretation (although it talks about other things). The relevant card text reads: "Aid +10, or 4 Patronage to ARVN Resources." Aid +10 means the option of moving the Aid marker up the track 10 notches. 4 Patronage to ARVN Resources has to involve the Resources
somehow, so if you think it means taking 4 resources and putting them into Patronage (a typical ARVN corruption move to increase their score, consolidating their government's political power), then I'll have to reduce you by 4 resources.
I won't make any adjustments yet either way -- let me know your thoughts on this!
I see what you mean...I am good with taking 10 aid then.
TURN TWO -- ARVN ACTION (revised)
----------------------------------
AzTank as the ARVN chooses the "Brinks Hotel" event card; and (logically) the unshaded version of the event that helps the ARVN; and of the two options there he increases Aid +10 rather than sacrificing 4 Patronage points (which he needs to help trigger a victory) to gain 4 Resources.
This ends Turn Two with no further map change.
Going into the next turn, which will be a Coup and thus also a scoring round, the scores and related tracks (double checking everything for Turn end) stand as follows:
The US is 13 points from a win trigger, with a score of 38 (Support for Saigon + Available Troops/Bases back home).
The NVA is 14 points from a win trigger, with a score of 5 (Bases + NVA control in South Nam). We have 2 operational resources.
The VC is 15 points from a win trigger, with a score of 21 (Bases + Opposition to Saigon in South Nam). We have 17 resources.
The ARVN is also 15 points from a win trigger, with a score of 36 (COIN pop control + Patronage); 30 resources; 15 each of Patronage and Econ; and 25 Aid. (Note that the resource mark goes back to 30 after I misunderstood him to be passing to gain three, when instead he took the event. By taking Aid +10, he bumped his prior aid up from 15 to 25. Resources and Patronage unchanged.)
It's a close game after the first two turns; but with two players now ensuring close cooperation between Team North (the insurgents) and Team South (the counter-insurgents), this could change pretty drastically if one of us sees a way to sacrifice one of our factions for a Team win!
TURN THREE -- FIRST COUP (phases 1 and 2 of 6)
----------------------------------------------
For Turn Three we drew a Coup from the Event Deck. To recoup (yes I intended that pun) prior discussion in agonizingly more detail >:D : "Coups" are when we check to see if any faction has won the game. On the rare occasion when two coups are drawn back to back, the second coup's win/score phases are ignored although the 'event' still happens. That certainly can't happen for this Coup, because it wasn't the final card in the first portion of the Event deck. (It is impossible due to how the event deck is shuffled together to pull more than two coups in a row.)
Phase one of a Coup is checking if any factions have advanced their scores enough to trigger a win. This being the first Coup, that might be practically impossible, and anyway none of us are there: the US is closest at 13 points short; then the NVA at 14 short; the VC and the ARVN both at 15 short. Which is quite a close game.
Phase two has a bunch of subphases that happen automatically:
2.1.) Check if any Lines of Communications (the road network and the Mekong River branches) have Team North forces parked on them. If so, mark them as Sabotaged based on various criteria which currently don't apply because Team North hasn't moved anyone anywhere yet, including onto LoCs. This would affect ARVN's "Econ" when-if-ever it applies, though, and therefore their income.
2.2.) Check if any Laos or Cambodia province (the western map edge) has COIN (Team South) control. {checking} Nope, the US has some specs there but I made sure the NVA still has control. The Trail would have been degraded otherwise. This, by the way, is why I track Control of those provinces even though they have no South Nam population and so can't count for NVA or ARVN score.
2.3.) ARVN gets income! And a lot of it. All the LoCs are clear, for a maximum possible 15 Econ, so they get +15 in Resources. The Aid marker stands at 25 currently, so +25 from that. That pumps ARVN Resources from 30 + 15 + 25 = 70! That's almost off the track!! (Keep in mind, the US can use ARVN resources to order ARVN forces around sometimes.)
2.4.1.) The VC gets income! -- one point of Resource for every VC base on the map, which currently totals 4. So from 17 + 4 = 21 Resources. Coincidentally, this is also the VC total score at the moment.
2.4.2.) The NVA gets income! -- one point of Resource for every NVA Base in Laos and Cambodia (but not South Nam or even the "North Vietnam" province!) + 2x the Trail value (which is 1). So 2x1(Trail) + 5(West Bases) = 7 + 2 current Resources = 9 Resources.
2.5.) Finally, if the US has any Casualties then Aid would be reduced by 3x their number; but there aren't any casualties yet so that isn't a problem. (Note that this wouldn't affect ARVN income -- this time!)
Now comes the Support Phase, and here AzTank will have to make some choices before we continue.
3.1.) The US and ARVN players, with the US going first, have to decide how many of up to four population areas they're going to spend ARVN Resources pacifying. Since AzTank is playing both factions, this is simply a single Team action for him.
Pacification sounds ominous, especially considering that South Vietnam is rather an oppressive revolving door of corrupt autocrats! But from the US perspective this means winning the hearts and minds of the South Vietnamese people, and while the ARVN player can abuse it (and doesn't strictly need it to win) it really does mean helping the people.
The US can choose up to four populated areas (provinces or cities) and spend ARVN resources there increasing Support for the current regime. (Keep in mind a Coup is going on. ;) Insert irony as appropriate.) Support for Saigon is a major way the US scores to win (in a later coup, never the current one -- that's why victory points were checked first!) Once the US has made their choice, if they didn't choose a full list of four, the ARVN get a chance to fill out the list of four pop areas under the same rules. (So if the US player chooses 3 areas, the ARVN can choose one more for 4 areas total. Or vice versa.) Since AzTank is playing both factions, and since it makes no difference whether the US or the ARVN is doing this, he's just making the choice straight out.
The rules are these: in each selected pop area, AzTank can spend 3 ARVN Resources up to 3 times per area (for a maximum of 9 per area or 9x4=36 absolute total). The first expense in an area would remove any Terror markers, and can only be used for that; but there aren't any yet. The second and third expense per area shifts the Support one notch per expense toward Active Support (max shift of two notches up per area). This can also be used to sooth Opposition to the Saigon regime, and so erode the VC's score (and capabilities in those areas!)
So, AzTank: here are the two current map halves:
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(The Coup isn't finished so I haven't replaced the ARVN leader yet. ;) )
Choose up to 4 populated areas to spend ARVN resources increasing Support (and how many notches up, up to two per area since there's currently no Terror.)
Oh, almost forgot: the areas must have current COIN control; must have at least one ARVN police division (orange cube); and must have at least one of either US or ARVN military divisions (green or yellow cubes). (The US would be limited to choosing areas with green cubes, and the ARVN to areas with yellow cubes, but ARVN orange police divisions would be necessary for either faction!)
That means eligible map areas, roughly north to south, west to east, are: Hue City; Da Nang City; Kontum City; Qui Nhon City; An Loc City; Cam Ranh City; Can Tho City; and Saigon City.
(Note: not provinces Quang Nam, Phu Bon, Khan Hoa, Ba Xuyen nor Kien Hoa, because there aren't any yellow or green cubes there. Not provinces of Quang Tri, Binh Dinh, Pleiku, because no Police divisions and/or no COIN control.)
While that may seem overly limited (currently to the South Nam cities), AzTank can utterly crush the ball forward on US score here! :coolsmiley:
Edited to add: and in case it's helpful for your planning during this Turn, here's the upcoming event for next Turn:
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While AzTank is thinking about that move, he might as well consider the upcoming ARVN Redeployment, too: he doesn't have any ARVN Troops (the military divisions, i.e. the yellow cubes) that he must move somewhere this time (possibly during the next Coup); but...
1.) he may move as many deployed ARVN Troops (the yellow cubes on the map) as he likes to any cities without NVA Control (currently all of them); to Saigon regardless of any other factors; or to any area with a COIN base (currently only Pleiku Province, Saigon having the only other COIN base on the board and already a valid move -- there's an ARVN spec in Quang Nam, not a base);
and
2.) he may move as many deployed ARVN Police divisions (the orange cubes on the map) as he likes to any LoC at all without restriction, and/or to any COIN controlled South Nam area: currently all the cities, plus the provinces listed roughly north to south, west to east, of Quang Nam, Pleiku, Phu Bon, Khanh Hoa, Ba Xuyen, and Kien Hoa.
(Note that positions at game start, which for the ARVN haven't changed much in this game yet if at all, follow these deployment rules validly!)
I don't think any Viet Cong Support shifts (we get to spend resources on that, too, but the US and ARVN first) can possibly affect these options (because support shifts don't affect COIN control nor COIN Base existence, nor erase Saigon from the map ;) ), so you don't have to wait for my choices there. (I think the only place I could affect Support that's a valid redeployment move is Pleiku, so if you want to wait to see what if anything I do there, that's fine. ;) But I'll let you re-redeploy again after my VC support phase if you want to save time and make most or all of your redeploy moves now.)
Remember, however, although it won't affect your ARVN redeployment either, that your US specs currently in the western border provinces (Laos and Cambodia) will be sent back to Available automatically as part of the redeployment phase. (Had there been any other Team South forces over the border, they would be automatically sent to Available boxes, too -- except for US Troops, the green cubes, which would be sent completely out of play! Not before messing with the NVA Trail however.)
You could go ahead and consider your US Commitment moves, too, although you might want to wait for my VC Support phase. (I don't think my NVA Redeployment phase will mean anything relevant to your Commitment this time, but theoretically it could so you can wait if you want or I'll let you re-commit as you like after I make any NVA troop movements.)
US Commitment is, in effect, a special version of Redeployment unique to the US. Those rules are:
1.) Some Casualty rules which would automatically apply except he doesn't have any casualties yet.
2.) AzTank can move up to 10 US Troops (the green cubes, but not the little round specs) and up to 2 US Bases (the larger green circles) as he likes, off the map into the Available box, or onto the map from the Available box to any LoC, to any COIN controlled space (regardless if Team South has a base there or not), or to Saigon.
This could hugely affect US victory points up or down based on Available Troops and Bases (not specs being Available which is why the US alone has a separate box for them). It won't affect NVA or COIN control, unless Saigon is uncontrolled or NVA controlled, so it won't affect those scores.
Also, in case it's helpful, here's the upcoming card for the next Turn:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F922%2FEHV7XS.png&hash=4457a530a2976e6761dca302eab3e4f7010c48a4)
I'll also update your Support options post with this.
As you note, pacification is not that easy since I have to have troops, police and coin control. Turns out I only have this in some of the cities.
-US Pacification: Spend six to increase support by two in Kon Tum. Spend six to increase support by two in Da Nang
-ARVN Pacification: Spend six to increase support by two in Hue Spend three to increase support by one in Saigon
Back to you Next up, VC agitation
TURN THREE -- FIRST COUP (phase 3 of 6)
----------------------------------------
As noted, phase 3 of the Coup (the scoring turn) lets the US and then the ARVN (both together since AzTank is playing both) spend ARVN resources in up to four populated areas, total (US gets first pick, since it's largely their money anyway and since doing this helps their score directly), to raise support for Saigon by up to two notches in each of the four areas. (And eliminate Terror markers there first, but Team North hasn't put any yet.) Each notch upward costs, as usual for Team South, three ARVN resources each.
Since AzTank just hauled in almost the maximum resources allowed for ARVN in the game (70 out of 75 max), he has money to burn baby! :D And he by God spends nearly the maximum amount allowable this phase.
In Kon Tum, 6 raising support by two notches. (70-6=64). US score goes up population 1 x 2 (for new active support) = + 2, from 38 to 40.
In Da Nang, same thing. New resources, 64-6=58. New US score 1(pop) x 2(actsup) = + 2, from 40 to 42.
(Note that the "US" player technically has to do this since the ARVN doesn't have military divisions in either city yet.)
In Hue, same thing. New resources, 58-6=52. New US score 2(pop) x 2(ActSup) = + 4, from 42 to 46.
(Technically the ARVN had to make this move because the US has no divisions there yet.)
Saigon is already passively supporting the regime (whoever that is ;) ), so Az only needs to raise them one notch to maximum support. Thus he only spends three ARVN resources, 52-3=49. But Saigon has a population of 6, so this adds another 6 points to the Support total (on top of the 6 points which "Passive Support" was already adding), from 46 to 52.
The US faction has now passed the trigger for a win condition! Fortunately for me, we only check win conditions once during a coup, and that's at the start. (There's an exception for the sixth coup, but this is the first. The US has a lot of capability for arranging a last minute win at the end of the sixth coup, for this reason!)
Now comes the VC's turn to adjust Support. (The NVA doesn't get an opportunity to do this.) I don't have as many resources, only 21 (also coincidentally my current VC score total). But my expenses are cheaper, at only 1 resource usually, including for this action. By that metric, I have close to proportionally the same 'buying power' as the ARVN did, 21x3=63!
As with Team South, I can choose up to four populated areas (no LoCs, and population greater than 0), as long as I have at least one Base or Spec there (active or hidden doesn't matter in this case), and no COIN (Team South) control. As with Team South, I can spend to remove any Terror I've caused (not applicable this time), and then notch support down twice toward Active Opposition.
I don't have any valid city targets, so I choose:
1 notch down to Active Oppose in Kien Giang;
same in Kien Phong;
same in Tay Ninh;
and same in Binh Dinh.
That's -4 resources from my 21 = 17.
Each of those already had Passive Opposition, so they all tick down one notch to Active Opposition. Each of them had 2 Pop, so each adds another 2 to the VC score: 2(Pop) x 4(areas) = 8 + 21 = 29 total VC score.
Now we move to Phase 4, redeployment! The VC are the only faction who aren't forced to redeploy (and also can't) during a coup. The US essentially redeploys twice, but the second time will be special and we'll get to that in Phase 5.
4.1.) All Team South forces are automatically removed from all western border provinces (Laos and Cambodia). Any US and ARVN specs and bases, and any ARVN divisions (whether police or military) are sent to the respective faction Available pools. All US divisions over the border, however, are sent entirely out of play! Fortunately for AzTank, he wasn't caught with US divisions in a different foreign country. ;) But his specs over there go home, for now.
4.2.) Now it's AzTank's turn as the ARVN. (I'll be redeploying the NVA, as necessary, in phase 4.3.)
I went over those rules in my prior post in case AzTank wanted to go ahead and make this decision (since the VC Support operations weren't going to affect his choices here), but I'll repeat them here for convenience.
He doesn't currently have any ARVN Troops (the military divisions, i.e. the yellow cubes) that he must move somewhere this time (perhaps during the next Coup); but...
1.) he may move as many deployed ARVN Troops (the yellow cubes on the map) as he likes to any cities without NVA Control (currently all of them); to Saigon regardless of any other factors; or to any area with a COIN base (currently only Pleiku Province, Saigon having the only other COIN base on the board and already a valid move -- there's an ARVN spec in Quang Nam, not a base);
and
2.) he may move as many deployed ARVN Police divisions (the orange cubes on the map) as he likes to any LoC at all without restriction (those are the roads and the Mekong river branches), and/or to any COIN controlled South Nam area (currently all the cities, plus the provinces listed roughly north to south, west to east, of Quang Nam, Pleiku, Phu Bon, Khanh Hoa, Kien Hoa, and Ba Xuyen.
Here is the currently updated map, Az.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F924%2FZhb6pY.png&hash=00308d85fb98f3bba998e30a6d559ef930caa7d1)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F923%2FN0oMqi.png&hash=79ee780a5bc5fc3997e7457b061d5e781bb49bcd)
Also, here's the upcoming event next Turn as a reminder, in case that makes any difference:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F922%2FEHV7XS.png&hash=4457a530a2976e6761dca302eab3e4f7010c48a4)
Note: I feel like an ad/mod should move our thread now to the Digital (or perhaps to the Tabletop) AAR section. 8)
ARVN will not redeploy any troops
ARVN will only move one police from Qui Nhon to Bhin Dinh and one police from Saigon to Kien Phong
I gotta wonder, if the Justice League or even the Super Friends, led by Batman (I mean the JLA 1990-era version, possibly) were part of the US faction, they'd be able to bring the NVA to task in no time, boy howdy.
Dr. Manhattan won the Vietnam War for America.
Well, Iron Man and the Avengers couldn't, so factor that into the fan-wars. >:D
It's culturally interesting that the Marvel Universe is largely a creation of the Vietnam era (and in Stark's case, literally a creation of the Vietnam war -- once upon a time that was true of the Punisher, too); and to a much smaller but still important sense (mostly but not entirely Captain America), a creation of WW2.
Anyway, at the moment the US doesn't even need Aquaman! :coolsmiley: They are definitely crushing the win, right out of the gate, thanks to that early LRRP draw. If I can't figure out a way to knock them down sufficiently before next coup (minimum 5 more turns, maximum 12 more), this game will be over: Saigon will have enough support in the South for the US to declare Mission Accomplished and go home, leaving the ARVN to be steamrolled later on their own recognizance. ;)
(An amusing extension to the game from a US win would be for the ARVN to keep playing without them and see how far they can hold on. In real life, the NVA and the VC had been quite beaten and wouldn't have been able to come back for the post-US win without a lot of Soviet help.)
Quote from: ArizonaTank on January 18, 2017, 08:14:48 AM
ARVN will only move one police from Qui Nhon to Bhin Dinh and one police from Saigon to Kien Phong
I can understand wanting to move them there; but neither of those provinces are COIN controlled. (I've double-checked both in the save and in the map shots.) Consequently they aren't among the valid province list either.
For ease of reference, the current valid Police deployment moves are:
1.) Any Line of Communication (road or the Mekong river branches).
2.) Any city (because none of those are NVA controlled -- though you could go to Saigon in any case).
3.) These provinces (because they're COIN controlled and/or have a COIN base): Quang Nam, Pleiku, Phu Bon, Khanh Hoa, Kien Hoa, and Ba Xuyen.
If you haven't chosen by this afternoon when I'm off work, I'll be where I can repost the current board snapshots with special marks to show the valid province moves, in case that helps. O:-)
Quote from: JasonPratt on January 18, 2017, 09:38:19 AM
Well, Iron Man and the Avengers couldn't, so factor that into the fan-wars. >:D
It's culturally interesting that the Marvel Universe is largely a creation of the Vietnam era (and in Stark's case, literally a creation of the Vietnam war -- once upon a time that was true of the Punisher, too); and to a much smaller but still important sense (mostly but not entirely Captain America), a creation of WW2.
Anyway, at the moment the US doesn't even need Aquaman! :coolsmiley: They are definitely crushing the win, right out of the gate, thanks to that early LRRP draw. If I can't figure out a way to knock them down sufficiently before next coup (minimum 5 more turns, maximum 12 more), this game will be over: Saigon will have enough support in the South for the US to declare Mission Accomplished and go home, leaving the ARVN to be steamrolled later on their own recognizance. ;)
(An amusing extension to the game from a US win would be for the ARVN to keep playing without them and see how far they can hold on. In real life, the NVA and the VC had been quite beaten and wouldn't have been able to come back for the post-US win without a lot of Soviet help.)
Yeah, but what if the Sovs send in Red Guardian? That could be a game changer! I mean does the US counter with Cap? Is that kind of escalation wise? A fascinating strategic question...
(https://brainstomping.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/captain-america-vietnam-2.jpg)
The entire thing is ludicrous, gents. Captain America alone could have turned the tide. Consider that Iron Man team up he did. Even with Iron Man retconned into the next century any one of the Avengers could have pulled apart North Vietnam with their bare, manly fists of justice.
The Mandarin would not have stood idly by while the Avengers pummeled the NVA.
No, he definitely WOULD have. Remember, Mandarin is Chinese. They've wanted to occupy Vietnam for years. He would have just waited and then swept in. The time it took a few superheroes to conquer North Vietnam would have given him plenty of time to plan a failproof strategy.
Which would probably have led to a Chinese coup (issue 137, March 1967) where Mandarin inserted himself as a new Khan. The Western superheroes would have been drawn in quickly. We're talking World War III here, potentially. The Soviets wouldn't have sat idly by letting Mandarin dominate Asia; they'd have struck in Western Europe quickly.
Who would have held Western Europe? The Black Panther? The Black Cat? Booster Gold? Pfft. All B-teamers at best.
No, not a general war in Europe. If the Mandarin takes control of China, the Sovs would have invaded to put him down. Then you likely have Western superheroes fighthing side-by-side with Commie heroes to end the Mandarin threat. Leads to detente between the super powers.
You're being way too DC in your view of the universe, mirth. Rocket Red types working with the JLA is the stuff of fantasy and comic books. I'm talking real life here.
Pffft...you would know a real life situation if it bit you in the ass.
Quote from: mirth on January 18, 2017, 10:46:08 AM
Pffft...you would know a real life situation if it bit you in the ass.
I guess you would know better than me, Sir Bitten-In-The-Ass-A-Lot.
Besides, DC > Marvel all day long, son.
Sorry I never got back with Jason because of some projects.... my miss. Congrats on the play!
Maybe Falling Sky or Liberty or Death I can jump in on....
PzE
Quote from: JasonPratt on January 16, 2017, 06:07:14 PM
Note: I feel like an ad/mod should move our thread now to the Digital (or perhaps to the Tabletop) AAR section. 8)
done
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on January 18, 2017, 10:38:28 AM
You're being way too DC in your view of the universe, mirth.
Says the guy who put Booster Freaking Gold on the Marvel lineup... : ::)
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on January 18, 2017, 10:26:49 AM
No, he definitely WOULD have. Remember, Mandarin is Chinese. They've wanted to occupy Vietnam for years. He would have just waited and then swept in.
If he wasn't already secretly in charge of the NVA! -- the North Vietnam leaders regarded themselves as Mandarins. (Ditto the South Nam leaders to some lesser extent.)
Considering Fu Manchu had the Chinese under his thumb (the Chinese rank the Mandarin as a serious threat, and he hates and opposes the government there), the Mandarin might have been rather well advised to get control of a neighboring nation (or two or three, given Cambodia's and Laos' relation to the problem), as a safer base of operations to work from.
Sorry, I need to do a better job of reading the rules before I move. Looking at the map, there is not really any place that I have COIN control where I want to move police yet. So no police redeployment.
So NVA redeploy
TURN THREE -- FIRST COUP (phase 4 of 6)
----------------------------------------
So, to recap and complete Phase 4
4.1.) All three US Specs across the western border (in Laos and/or Cambodia) go home (back to US Available), for now. This happens automatically, and doesn't affect anyone's score one way or another. (ARVN and US cubes or bases across the border would be also moved to available or, for the US, out of play, but none were there this time.)
4.2.) The ARVN didn't have any cubes (yellow military and orange police divisions) that necessarily had to be redeployed this time, and Aztank elected not to voluntarily redeploy any.
That brings us to...
4.3.) The NVA doesn't necessarily ever have to redeploy any Troops. (Only Troops, red cubes, i.e. military divisions, can be redeployed for the NVA.) But we have the option of shuffling as many red cubes as we want, from anywhere with red cubes, to areas with NVA bases -- even if those areas are COIN controlled. As it happens, thanks to Az's lucky first turn draw, I don't have as many bases on the map as I otherwise would have by now, nor as many divisions.
Consequently, I'm only going to move one division, from "North Vietnam" down to the "Parrot's Beak". This doesn't change anyone's score or otherwise alter map statuses.
At this point, if we were on the final coup, the game would end here with a final check and comparison of victory points! This is worth noting because the game would end before Phase 5, where the US player gets an option to radically affect his score again. ;) But if this was the final scoring, the US would win now as the only faction to have met their victory requirements.
But since this isn't the final coup, we go on to prepare for Phase 5 of the first scoring turn. This is called "Commitment" but it also functions as the US's true deployment phase.
5.1.) All US Bases in the Casualty box would now be removed completely out of play! -- but he doesn't have any. It is generally a good idea, if given a chance by an event, for the US to get any Bases out of the Casualty box before a coup!
5.2.) 1 out of each 3 US Troops in the Casualty box (rounded down) would be removed out of play, and the rest sent back to Available (which would increase his score) along with any US Specs in the Casualty box. But he doesn't have any. (Notice that Specs cannot be destroyed out of play this way.)
Those two parts happen automatically
5.3.) The US can now voluntarily move up to 2 Bases and up to 10 US Troops (the green cubes, the military divisions) between...
(1) the Available box (which will increase or decrease his score if moving them in or out respectively);
(2) any Line of Communication (i.e. roads or the Mekong river branches) without restriction (except that Bases cannot be put on LoCs);
(3) Saigon;
(4) any COIN controlled space.
In other words he can shuffle those bases and troops around the map as noted, or from those map areas to Available, or from Available to those map areas. He doesn't have to choose one or the other; it's a strategic redeployment. This is the main way for the US to put Bases and Troops on or off the map! -- but Az has a tough balancing choice (like most choices in this game ;) ), because putting more of the most capable forces on the map will reduce his score. And increasing his score by taking them off the map (where possible) will proportionately reduce his ability to affect the map.
This is a little less of a dilemma when we're playing as two teams: if someone had decided to play ARVN, Az's choice would be much harsher because only one faction can win and Az could be messing up his score while improving ARVNs. Or vice versa! >:D
Anyway, here is the currently updated map, Az -- including the one Redeployment move either of us made (my NVA division down to the Parrot's Beak.)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F923%2F52hTTh.png&hash=bc2486674b961f339b4383a865ebe286abf4433f)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F922%2F0PTRZy.png&hash=c2c8712350fec660bab2f49d921fd010d66b732f)
Also, here's the upcoming event next Turn as a reminder, in case that makes any difference:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F922%2FEHV7XS.png&hash=4457a530a2976e6761dca302eab3e4f7010c48a4)
I will take from the available box, 1 US base and 2 US troops and put in Ba Xuyuen (COIN controlled). THe US commitment increases.
Confirmed as a valid move! -- I'll update and finish out the automatic parts of the rest of the Turn this afternoon, and move along to Turn Four. (Which being the VC I am definitely going to take the event on, for reasons I'll explain to readers later.)
TURN THREE -- FIRST COUP (phases 5 and 6 of 6)
----------------------------------------------
So, AzTank increases the US faction's commitment by three pieces, a base and two divisions, put into Ba Xuyen, almost the southernmost province of South Nam, just south of the city of Can Tho. (You can see it on prior snapshots, or on the coming snapshots for Turn Four.)
With that, Phase 5 is done, and we move to Phase 6:
6.0.) (Technically I should have done this first thing before checking victory, but this time it didn't matter. Will remember next time.) Put the new Coup card on the RVN Leader slot. This stops the initial ARVN capability, which was a rather nice one of gaining +5 Aid for every ARVN Training operation. But as things turned out, AzTank never got around to using it. :'(
Now, with the "Young Turks" wagging the US dog, ARVN will get to add +2 Patronage for free any time ARVN runs the Govern special activity. That's no small bonus either! -- Patronage is one of the ARVN's victory points, and Governing is a major way for them to farm Patronage; but adding Patronage usually involves some kind of tradeoff in Aid (so fewer resources from the US to work with later) or Support (which takes vicpoints back), or something like that -- because Patronage basically means cronyism and nepotism, consolidating power corruptly among friends at the expense of the people. For a while (until the next successful coup), AzTank as the ARVN player can gain some extra Patronage victory points without paying a negative cost for them.
(Note: for some reason the cards aren't large enough to completely cover over the RVN Leader slot, under normal conditions, so I've "scaled" them up a little in Tabletop Simulator.)
6.1.) Normalize the Trail a little. The Trail naturally degrades, and some work on repair is done automatically to keep it minimally open, so if the Trail has gone to 0 it now goes to 1; if it had gone to 4 it would now go to 3. The Trail was already at 1, so nothing happens.
6.2.) Remove all Terror and Sabotage markers. There aren't any to remove.
6.3.) Flip all "specs" (US Irregulars, ARVN Rangers, and Team North Guerillas) to "underground". A few were active, mostly VC, and now they're hidden again.
6.4.) Put any active Momentum cards into the discard pile, but there aren't any yet.
6.5.) Put all factions into the Eligible Box. (I've sorted them according to the order of initiative on the upcoming Event card.)
6.6.) Make the upcoming Event card active and draw the next upcoming Event. I'll talk about that when I start Turn 4, since it happens that my Viet Cong get first initiative and I'm dang well going to take it. ;)
Until then, let me finish Turn Three by recapping the current track positions going into Turn 4:
The US Faction is very solidly in the lead with a combined score of 49, needing only another 2 to trigger a win condition.
The VC holds a solid second place with a combined score of 29, needing another 7 to trigger a win condition. We also have 17 resources.
The NVA is close to last with a combined score of 5, needing another 14 for a win trigger. We have only 9 resources. In a four-player game, the VC player and I could bargain with each other about transferring resources either direction as much as we wanted. In a two-player game, I'm forbidden from transferring resources, so... yeah, I'll talk about this harshness when it's the NVA's turn again.
The ARVN is last, but almost tied with the NVA, with a combined score of 36 (15 of that being Patronage), needing another 15 points (of either Control or Patronage) for a win trigger. ARVN currently has by far the most resources, at 49. Their Aid level from the US stands at 25, and their Economic base currently stands at the maximum possible 15.
Something for both AzTank and I to remember next time a Coup is here: I only need one of my Factions to win for my Team on a normal Victory check, but AzTank needs BOTH his factions to win on a Victory check. However, if we go into the final Victory check, only my lower of the two victory margins counts (even if my higher score is past the victory trigger) vs. the lower of Az's team. This is meant to balance cooperative efficiencies on each Team (since we aren't competing against our teammates for the win), as well as balance for the US/ARVN team having more of an advantage in their cooperation.
I'll also talk a moment about drawing a Coup card this early. I certainly didn't do it on purpose, because this early in the game an early coup gives Team North more disadvantages than Team South. It's true that neither of us may have enough forces on the board to exploit the strategic redeploy options (which the Viet Cong lacks anyway). But Team South will typically be in a position to pick up a more massive resource boost than on later coups (which notice is exactly what happened), whereas I'll have proportionately fewer bases out (which generates my income during Coups, and which is the only sure way the NVA can generate war income at all).
Lastly, since we're moving on from the test phase without problems into the full game, I have randomly drawn out and thrown away 6 cards from the 1964 deck, shuffling in a randomly drawn coup card; and then I've randomly shuffled and drawn out to throw away unseen 24 cards from the 1965 and 1968 decks, cutting those into four stacks of 12 and shuffling a coup card into each of them. Those have now been stacked (in their proper timing order, remaining 1964 cards first, then '65-'67, then '68- ), into the full Event deck for this game. So if the deck seems taller in snapshots from here out, that's why.
On then to Turn Four, very soon!
TURN FOUR -- VC FIRST INITIATIVE
--------------------------------
As I've been showing for a while, the upcoming card for Turn Four is:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F922%2FEHV7XS.png&hash=4457a530a2976e6761dca302eab3e4f7010c48a4)
The card shows that the VC gets first initiative, and that's me. This is a fine card, but to weigh whether I want to play it or pass, I'll need to check the upcoming card next turn which turns out to be:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F922%2F1aQMLS.png&hash=130551628ef1009e41ae6e0d62672f0baca5f844)
...h'oh crap,
it's the Hopocalypse!:wow: :timeout:
Strictly speaking, this is an event that really ought to predate 1964, but I'm not going to complain. "Uncle Ho" is really an awesome card for Team North, although Team South gets some pretty great options if one of them gets to play it -- so AzTank can expect that I'll
probably be passing the NVA initiative if it comes to that on
this turn. >:D
Consequently, I feel safe enough playing the Cadres event, and obviously I'm going to take the "shaded" version which will benefit the VC greatly from now until the end of the game, woo! <:-)
"Cadres" is meant to affect the VC, positively or negatively, and historically it represents something the VC accomplished which is why it gives us first initiative. To quote from the game's playbook on the historical context:
QuoteAs famously described in Frances FitzGerald's book, VC tactics emphasized the insertion of politicized cadres into the countryside villages, where they worked to first ingratiate themselves to the local population and later mobilize them for the conflict. The core of the US hearts and minds campaign revolved around neutralizing this potent guerrilla infrastructure.
In game terms this means by taking the Event, I'm going to set up a VC "Capability": that's an ongoing event that (so far as I know) will stay permanently in play for the rest of the game. Notice that had one of my enemies (including, theoretically, an NVA player!!) played the unshaded option of this event, the VC faction would have been hit with a poisoned version of the same effect
for the rest of the game!So what's the effect? Well, remember back during the Coup Turn, there was a phase called "Agitation" where the VC player got to spend resources reducing Support even to Active Opposition? Now, if I do a Rally operation, and one of my target areas has a VC Base, I can do an Agitate there, too. I still have to spend resources, it isn't free; and if there's a Terror marker then I'll have to spend to get rid of that first; but I can take it down two notches if I want (and can pay to do it), and I can do it
even if there's COIN Control which normally I can't for Agitation.
This is a nice permanent ability; although the unshaded option would have hurt me more than this helps me, so I'm glad to avoid that, too!
AzTank's ARVN gets the second initiative this Turn, and broadly he has two options:
1.) Pass, and pick up 3 Resources.
2.) Play a full ARVN operation, plus a free special activity if he wants.
Here's a reminder of the ARVN general operation options and special actions.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F923%2F3dmTi4.png&hash=ca01f9217866403bf3c0d41b0595130dd57ca9e6)
I've added a little "coup" card to "Govern" to remind you of a bonus you'll get doing that (for now).
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F924%2FcT7UQY.png&hash=73a0051561f68145bb41054020862644dfbe723b)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F924%2FYbKlKm.png&hash=8cfbe77ca53400c589f72c1c74ef8284028f269b)
If anyone still remembers his deployment move, the two new divisions and base for the US can be seen down in Ba Xuyen now.
ARVN will take an OP and Special Op
For the OP, they will train. I can't see the number of available troops, but I believe there should be enough. If not enough troops, then use police. Place 2 ARVN Rangers in Can Tho, Place 5 ARVN troops and 1 Police in Saigon, Place 5 ARVN troops and 1 police in Ba Xuyen. All this for 9 resources. Then spend 3 points to move Ba Xuyen to Active Support.
For the Spec Activity, Transport. 5 of the new ARVN troops from Saigon to Kien Phong
You had 8 Troops Available. Due to difficulty in clearly showing cube availabilities, I'm stacking them in pyramids with a base four across, then three, two, one, for a maximum stack of ten; the photo thus shows the top cube and one of the two-row cubes missing. (I don't know if I had explained that earlier but if so it was muccccch earlier, so it would be very easy to forget.)
Four military and two police divisions in the areas noted, then? You'll still be able to Transport your five Troops (yellow cubes) from Saigon to Kien Phong; you'll just have one less Troop in Saigon afterward than you were expecting. But you can adjust that order, too, if you like.
For upcoming Turns, I'll make a note to report Troop and (for ARVN) Police divisions available. (The specs and bases are obvious enough, I think?)
Quote from: JasonPratt on January 21, 2017, 12:44:54 PM
You had 8 Troops Available. Due to difficulty in clearly showing cube availabilities, I'm stacking them in pyramids with a base four across, then three, two, one, for a maximum stack of ten; the photo thus shows the top cube and one of the two-row cubes missing. (I don't know if I had explained that earlier but if so it was muccccch earlier, so it would be very easy to forget.)
Four military and two police divisions in the areas noted, then? You'll still be able to Transport your five Troops (yellow cubes) from Saigon to Kien Phong; you'll just have one less Troop in Saigon afterward than you were expecting. But you can adjust that order, too, if you like.
For upcoming Turns, I'll make a note to report Troop and (for ARVN) Police divisions available. (The specs and bases are obvious enough, I think?)
Hi yes, Specs and bases are easy to figure.
Yes on the four troop two police in each of the areas. Will still transport the five troops from Saigon
TURN FOUR -- ARVN INITIATIVE
----------------------------
AzTank as the ARVN elects not to pass, and since I as the VC played an Event he gets to play a full operation plus, at his discretion which he takes, a special activity.
In passing, the ARVN shares the basic suite of faction operations with the US, with some variance in how they work out, but their special activities are different. So the ARVN can do a Training operation rather (but not entirely) like the US; but they can't do an Air Lift special activity -- they can do a more limited-effect Transport instead. I'll zoom in somewhat on his option sheet to show the details (also for Patrolling and Governing as it happens).
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F922%2FESFzBV.png&hash=4f441e88cce458c51b4d91d46251ec66217bf286)
Az spends 12 resources on training (bringing ARVN's total resources down to 37 now) with the following effects:
1.) Place two Rangers (specs) in the city of Can Tho, west of Saigon. These are his last two Available specs (for now, the others being out-of-play which in this case means they need to be trained into existence); and as usual they'll deploy concealed.
2.) Four Troops and two Police added to the province of Ba Xuyen, directly south of Can Tho (where Az also recently deployed a US base and two US divisions as part of his escalation).
3.) Four Troops and two Police added to the city of Saigon.
None of these moves changes anything on the track yet.
4.) Az chooses to do a Pacification in one of the areas he Trained, so upticks the province of Ba Xuyen to Active Support. This adds one victory point to the US total, raising it from 49 to 50 (out of 51 needed for a win trigger).
The special activity is always free (though if I recall correctly it can occasionally lead to resource expensing anyway). In this case, for Transport to work, a path must be traced from the starting area (which can be a province) through LoCs and/or Cities to the destination (which can be any area), unhindered by Team North forces (and I don't have any on the LoCs yet anyway) -- otherwise distance is not a factor. In this case LoCs don't matter because he chooses to move 5 ARVN Troops (the yellow military division cubes) from Saigon, west into the directly adjacent Kien Phong.
Since I only have one VC spec there at the moment, this massssively asserts Team South control of Kien Phong, and its 2 population points, so adds 2 Victory Points to ARVNs total, bringing them up to 38 (out of 51 needed).
This brings Turn Four to a close, with "Uncle Ho" now becoming the active card:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F922%2F1aQMLS.png&hash=130551628ef1009e41ae6e0d62672f0baca5f844)
The eligible factions this turn are the NVA and the US, in that order of initiative according to the card. The upcoming card for Turn Six will be:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimagizer.imageshack.us%2Fv2%2F1024x768q90%2F924%2F3BNcvW.png&hash=2c963167c1a844f8991cf52a510012d85abd6f84)
...uh, yeah, I am definitely going to play the Hopocalypse rather than ho'pelessly attempt to get this (for me) rather weak event.
But I'm going to need some time to plot, and it's late here, so I'll save my move for tomorrow.
TURN FIVE -- NVA FIRST INITIATIVE
---------------------------------
Release the Ho'pocalpse! :D
This is one of the cards that Team North players (whether NVA or VC) hope make the 50/50 shuffle cut when setting up a deck for a new game. How great it is?
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So very great. It does have some limitations, because "Limited Operations", duh. What does that mean? Technically two things: I can't use special activities; and I'm restricted to one target space per operation. I emphasize "target" because I can often bring effects in from multiple valid spaces. Otherwise, the Ops can affect any valid space; Ops can be repeated as desired, including in the same target space; and I can select the Ops as I go along instead of declaring them all at once. Also, despite the NVA taking the lead on this card, the VC get to do their 3 LimOps first; and since they're cooperating as a team under my player leadership, I can make sure they won't be competing too much against each other. (Rather in the gist of the card! -- in a normal game, however, the two players could be messing each other up on purpose, since only one player can win!)
Best of all, all six Limited Ops are entirely free! :D (...unless there are exceptions against free application mentioned in the Op rules.)
So, VC first. I very heavily debated whether to concentrate my efforts to try to match Az's southern escalation near Saigon, but eventually I decided to put my operations in the north (-ish).
The sequence of the ops becomes important. So...
1st VC Limited Op: a Rally in the Quang Tri-Thua Thien province (the northernmost South Nam population area), to convert the two Guerillas to a Base. This increases VC score by one (from 29 to 30). I can still Agitate (thanks to my new Cadre VC capability) in a limited op, but I need both a base and... hey, I have a base here now, woo! Pay 1 Resource (from 17 to 16) to reduce Support down one notch from Passive Oppose to Active Oppose. The VC was already scoring 2 points here for the population of 2 at Passive Oppose; now we score another 2 points for the population at Active Oppose, raising our score from 30 to 32!
I just scored 3 points with only one resource spent! :D
2nd VC Limited Op: another Rally in Quang Tri, this time with the Base which allows me to bring in specs totaling the population number (2) plus the number of bases there (1) = 3 specs, which as usual enter hidden. There would be no point to Agitating further here, so I don't.
Technically, my first Op briefly turned the province over to COIN control, thanks to the US spec and division there; but my Cadre ability allows me to Agitate even where there's COIN control, as long as I'm doing it with a Rally. And the COIN control doesn't affect VC Rally validity, so the game allows me to bring in more specs -- which then solidly nerfs COIN control away again. Net result for the ARVN score is nothing, although technically their score went up 2 and back down 2.
Also, Agitation needs only one of either a VC spec or a VC base, and does not 'activate' the piece unlike many other such moves.
3rd VC Limited Op: a Rally in Quang Tin-Quang Ngai province (the farmland valley in the mountains south of Da Nang). I trade two specs there for a Base, ticking up VC's score by a point again (from 32 to 33). And I spend one resource again (from 16 to 15) to Agitate here, notching the Support down to Active Oppose, which with the population of 2 ticks up the VC score another 2 points from 33 to 35 -- that's only one point shy of the VC win trigger! :bd:
After very heavily debating myself over whether to build up strongly in the Parrot's Beak down south, I finally decided to work on the North with my NVA, too.
1st NVA Limited Op: Rally in North Vietnam. I have two Bases there, so I can deploy specs up to the Trail value (1) plus the bases there (2) = 3 specs. I decline to build up the Trail, since I'll be needing my precious few resources later for other things (stays at 9, Trail stays at 1).
2nd NVA Limited Op: March with Central Laos as my target space. I bring in all 3 Troops from Southern Laos, plus all three Troops and all three Specs from North Vietnam. (There's an NVA spec already in Central Laos, for a new total of 4 there.) This is a Limited Op so I can't March my forces again as part of this Op.
3rd NVA Limited Op: March with Quang Tri (the northernmost South Nam province) as my target. All 6 NVA divisions, and all 4 specs, go in.
Note that by doing this I concentrate force, and I also go around the Route 9 LoC between North Vietnam and Quang Tri, which would have slowed me down just as much (because that's a space, too!) for less forces at the end of my three Ops.
Team North forces in Quang Tri greatly outnumber COIN forces there, and my NVA forces outnumber VC forces, so I gain NVA Control of Quang Tri, which increases NVA score by the population of 2 points (from 5 to 7 total score). The area was uncontrolled so ARVN's score doesn't drop.
Since there was no support for Saigon in this province, my specs can move in still hidden, even though it's a mass move. (If Team North specs aren't sneaky enough they get noticed and flipped to active. Since this space isn't a LoC, and it doesn't have Support for Saigon, my specs can sneak in. AzTank can see they're there, but still has to flush them out or whatever.)
This ends my part of Turn Five. AzTank as the US has second initiative.
I'm going to try tipping the camera a bit this time to help show stacks better.
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Let me know if that helps, Az!
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The US can either pass (for 3 ARVN resources), or run a full US Operation plus Special Activity.
The ARVN has 5 Police divisions in that Available stack. The US has 19 military divisions in their Available stacks.
Here's the upcoming card for Turn 6 again:
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"When a nail sticks up..."
The US hammer falls.
US will take Special then OP in that order
First, airstrike on Quang Tri. Destroy all six NVA troops there. Also, degrade trail by 1. Since the locals already hate me, no effect on opposition.
Then train in Quang Tri. US can select any province with US pieces. Since I don't have ARVN troops available to train, I can take them from the board. Put 6 ARVN troops in Quang-Tri by taking 3 from Ba Xuyen and 3 from Kien Phong. This will take away NVA control in Quang Tri. Will cost 3 resources for the training. I can't pacify since no COIN control.
You have a spec, not a base, in Quang Tri, so you can't train/strat-move ARVN cubes. You'll have to revise that part.
(Note to self: this mod made the specs little circles, instead of hex cylinders. I should work on trying to fix this for easier viewing reference. Maybe stacks of six chits = 1 spec cylinder? I don't think I can convert the little circles to something else and keep the art on them. But I can copy-paste as many of the specs as I want to 'build' an ad-hoc cylinder... Update: that didn't work, so I decided to scale down all the specs by five steps. They should still be visible and countable on the snapshots, but are highly unlikely to be mistaken for bases now!)
You're free to revise the Air Strike, too, if you really reaaally want to. :-" But it can be used with any move if you want to do something other than Train.
The Airstrike as given still removes NVA Control, since it leaves over an equal number of VC pieces, plus your spec and division: I'd have to have 7 NVA pieces there for control.
Quote from: JasonPratt on January 22, 2017, 02:18:03 PM
You have a spec, not a base, in Quang Tri, so you can't train/strat-move ARVN cubes. You'll have to revise that part.
Maybe I am reading it wrong, but rule 3.2.1 "Train" does not mention COIN control as being needed for the US to train. It only mentions that US pieces need to be present. This is reinforced by the player's aid card that states the location as: "cities or provinces with US pieces" COIN control only comes into play in the second part of the "train" operation. You do need COIN control to do the pacify action. So I can bring in troops, but I can't do the pacify part afterward.
If this was the ARVN turn, I would not be able to train there without the airstrike. ARVN can't train where there is NVA control. But note that COIN control is not required even for ARVN. So with the airstrike, NVA lose control of the province since as in 1.7: "The NVA alone Control a Province or City if NVA pieces exceed all other pieces (including VC)." After the airstrike there are 4 VC and 4 NVA pieces.
So if you agree with my rationale...I will keep my turn as originally messaged....
Quote from: ArizonaTank on January 22, 2017, 03:56:53 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on January 22, 2017, 02:18:03 PM
You have a spec, not a base, in Quang Tri, so you can't train/strat-move ARVN cubes. You'll have to revise that part.
Maybe I am reading it wrong, but rule 3.2.1 "Train" does not mention COIN control as being needed for the US to train.
I agree (and agreed) with your rationale regarding COIN control, but my point was that you needed
a US base for the US to put something more than a 1-2 Irregulars, but let me check...
Quote(3.2.1.) PROCEDURE: First, in those selected spaces desired, if US, place 1-2 Irregulars or, at US Bases, 1-2 Rangers or up to 6 ARVN cubes (any combination of Troops and Police)
And then rules allowing you strategic movement when you're out of the cubes you want to deploy, of course. But you have to have a US base there and you don't. You have a US special force Irregular. If you want to train 1-2 Irregulars there, that's fine: "The US may select any Provinces or Cities that have US pieces," regardless of COIN control or support -- I wasn't disputing that point. But you have to have a US Base to deploy ARVN cubes (whether military or police, your choice of any mix up to 6 total).
I've made the specs smaller now (more like specks! :)) ) to keep them from being mistaken for Bases when flipped underground; they'll show up smaller on the next snapshots. But that's an Irregular, not a Base.
There is a similar rule preventing me from training more than one Guerilla if I don't have a base in the training area; similarly I can only bring red cubes onto the map, and upgrade red specs to cubes, in areas where I have one or two NVA bases. I can't replace those cubes you're airstriking out except where I have at least one base: I can't do a special "Infiltrate" activity and put cubes directly back into Quang Tri, for example, because I don't have a base there (yet).
The rule has some variation between factions, but the basic principle is the same.
To clarify the account, the US has a maximum of 6 potential bases. You started with two out of play (they'll have to be constructed in effect); two Available (constructed and ready to deploy but starting 'at home'); and two on the map (at Saigaon and Pleiku). Since then you've recently put one base from Available into Ba Xuyen.
1 Base at Ba Xuyen
1 Base at Saigon
1 Base at Pleiku
1 Base at home (Available)
2 Bases out of play (need constructing)
-------------------------
6 total bases
The US can only train ARVN military and police divisions (yellow and orange cubes) at Ba Xuyen, Saigon, and Pleiku currently; or since you've deployed all yellow cubes already, you can strategically redeploy up to 6 yellow cubes at one or more of those places if you do a Training op there.
The ARVN is more restricted because it needs to avoid NVA control areas, but it's also more flexible because it can train divisions (Troops or Police) at cities and at ARVN bases as well as at US bases. The US can only train ARVN cubes at US bases.
I see it now:
3.2.1
"PROCEDURE: First, in those selected spaces desired, if US, place
1-2 Irregulars or, at US Bases, 1-2 Rangers or up to 6 ARVN cubes
(any combination of Troops and Police);"
So I will modify my move to place 2 US irregulars in Quang-Tri instead of the ARVN troops.
I believe that is legal.
Yep, that's valid. Will mark up and proceed.
I won't be able to do a full Turn report to end Turn 5 and start Turn 6 until this afternoon when I can get back to my computer that can take snapshots. But if you want to plot ahead for Turn 6 and 7, and maybe even take the Turn Six Event: the newly active card will be Ambassador Taylor (with ARVN and then VC having initiative sequence), which you can see a snapshot of upthread.
The upcoming Turn Seven card will be Sihanouk, card 75 in the playbook list, with ARVN, NVA, US, and VC initiative order.
Have fun making that choice eventually! >:D
TURN FIVE -- US CHOICE
----------------------
Hmm... in hindsight I'm wondering if I should have kept some NVA troops back in Laos. Ah well.
Note that players doing a Special activity can play it and the Op in any order they choose; Az could have even put his Air Strike in the middle of his Training if he wanted! Or vice versa: he could have Air Struck my forces, trained some forces, and then degraded the Trail.
As it is, he zorched all six of my wave of NVA divisions going into Quang Tri, and in hindsight I really should have thought that out better. :P If I lose eventually, I'm going to blame this, kthx?
Anyway. AzTank had the US play a full op with a special activity; his special activity was Air Strike against up to 6 total targets in any of several areas which also had US forces spotting for the strike -- and he put all that rolling thunder into Quang Tri, vaporizing my entire corps of NVA divisions which I had been carefully building up for several turns. This left me 4 NVA specs, but that wasn't even enough to outnumber the VC forces much less them plus his two US forces in the province, so I lost NVA control, nicking my NVA score back 2 points from 7 to 5. Also, he bombed the Trail back past the Stone Age again (from 1 to 0), and I'll have to spend precious resources doing something about that eventually. The hell of it is that had I gone with my other main plan, I would have had the Trail up to its maximum level 4, and a bunch of forces ready to kick butt more safely. Live and learn. Or die and learn in this case.
Az also Trained in the same province, but since he didn't have a base he could only add 2 more special forces, for a total there of 3 US specs and a US division. That wasn't enough for COIN control, so he couldn't spend cash increasing support for Saigon. His single Training target cost 3 ARVN resources (from 37 to 34), and his special activity as always was free.
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Here is the horrifying tally we brave and poor communist terrorists national patriots must struggle against, featuring my new tilt-o-vision (for showing stacks of cubes better); smaller special troops (so they'll be much less likely to be confused with bases); and spec rows in fives (so it's easier to count them at a glance in their Available boxes).
I suppose it was, indeed, a ho'pocalpyse, now -- just not the one I was ho'ping for. :uglystupid2:
But a new turn starts next, and... boy howdy, things aren't going to get better for me soon, are they?
ARVN and the VC are the two eligible players for the Sixth Turn, and in that order according to the new active card:
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Event context from the official Playbook: "General Maxwell Taylor was a decorated veteran who commanded the US 101st Airborne division during WWII. He was General Ridgeway's Chief of Staff during the Korean War and President Kennedy appointed him the fifth Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in 1962. After his second retirement from active military service in 1964, Taylor became the US Ambassador to South Vietnam through 1965."
Ack! -- anyone who commanded the 101st Airborne in WW2 is not to be trifled with!
The ARVN, with first initiative this turn, has the full spectrum of choices available: Pass (which I feel safe betting Az won't do this time); take his choice of Event options; play a full ARVN op with a special activity; or play a full ARVN op with no special activity (which would limit my VC options later).
For reference, this is the upcoming card:
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That's a bit of a harsh choice. I said I'd bet against AzTank passing for ARVN, but he might pass just to scotch me from getting this event: between the two, I'd benefit quite a bit more operationally from this one than I could punch him down strategically by taking the other card.
ARVN will take the event. +9 AID and Resources. 2 out of play US troops to Quang Tri
Seems valid; since my move(s) for the next two initiatives will likely involve a lot of map update, I'll have to wait until this afternoon. You can expect the US to be getting a full operation + special for the second half of Turn 7 (probably).
Maaaannnn I'm regretting marching all those NVA divisions into range of your airstrike... :pullhair:
TURN SIX -- ARVN and VC CHOICES
-------------------------------
AzTank's ARVN faction, as first initiative, takes the Event "Ambassador Taylor: Interventionist", as expected. That means the ARVN (and the US by extension) picks up 9 Resources from 34 to 43; and ARVN's also goes up by 9 from 23 to 32. From this point the US could actually mess with ARVN by taking away some Patronage! -- but since they're a cooperative team under AzTank, he elects instead to muster two US divisions into existence from out-of-play, and deploy them onto the map at his choice of Quang Tri. This potentially gives him a higher score later if he can get them home, and meanwhile they can be stomping and defending with superior American pwnage. He still needs another two forces in Quang Tri to control it, but he's making a stab at it!
My VC now have the option of passing for resources, or playing a full operation plus special; and I take the latter since I already have plenty of resources and my NVA partner is guaranteed to have first initiative (and the event) next Turn.
For my full operation... well, I fully expect AzTank to pave the mountains in Quang Tri with my dishonored guts or the equivalent thereof, at his first opportunity. So I am definitely going to eliminate a division; but punching any US Troop (or Base) is suicidal, and they're naturally more powerful than his specs anyway if he decides to attack.
Fortunately, this is where my special Ambush ability comes in. I could also trigger it with a March, but its primary purpose is to convert any Attack on US Troops or (if possible) Bases into a safe elimination. Here's how it works:
Step 1.) Choose up to two spaces to attack. (I could in fact choose more, but I can only Ambush in two and for various reasons I'd rather not pay to attack farther this turn.) I choose Quang Tri (duh!), and also Binh Dinh while I'm at it, because it also has a US division sitting in a space with some underground VC.
Step 2.) Pay 1 resource per target space. Two targets = 2 resources deducted from 15 to 13.
Step 3.) Declare I'm Ambushing there instead of Attacking. (If I was Moving, the Ambush could precede or follow the Move(s) in any order; but for Attacks the Ambush replaces the designated Attacks.)
Step 4.) I activate one and only one underground spec per target space. (Otherwise I'd have to activate them all, rendering them all susceptible to counterstriking!)
Step 5.) I choose one target COIN piece per space, and I choose one US division each space.
Step 6.) Those two green Troop cubes go to the US Casualty box. Eventually they'll go home, and back to Available, thus upping Az's US score! -- unless I can figure a way to remove some more Troops before the next coup. (1 out of 3 US casualties are removed out of play during coups.)
Step 7.) Ignore the usual US attrition that would force me to take off one of my attacking pieces from each space.
Step 8.) Profit. No, not really: I had already taken away COIN control, and my four NVA specs in Quang Tri still don't outnumber everyone else. Nor does the action in Binh Dinh change anything on the track.
This brings us into the start of Turn Seven.
TURN SEVEN -- NVA CHOICE
------------------------
Here's a recap of the newly active card, plus revealing the upcoming Event for Turn Eight:
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From the Playbook's historical context: "The Sihanouk trail was the portion of the Ho Chi Minh trail that operated inside of Cambodia and supplied operations in the Mekong Delta region of South Vietnam. The Sihanouk trail received supplies from the north via Laos and the coast. Prince Norodom Sihanouk of Cambodia sought a balanced policy between East and West blocs that led him to tolerate NVA presence on Cambodian territory and North Vietnam's use of Sihanoukville port and a 'Sihanouk Trail' from there into South Vietnam."
Had I not chosen to build up NVA divisions in the north (and then marched them all into a virtual Khe Sahn elimination :P ), but rather had I built up Parrot's Beak and the Trail, I could be spitting out quite a few more NVA specs now! As it is, eh. Oh, I'll take the "Sihanouk: Sea Supply and Sanctuary" Event -- the alternative is spending my few NVA resources for less effect than taking these free actions benefitting both VC and the NVA. I'm just bummed that things aren't better. My own fault and Az's good play (and luck).
So, for the VC:
1.) I Rally one spec each (the maximum under the circumstances) into "North Cambodia", "The Fishook", "The Parrot's Beak" and "Sihanoukville". This doesn't change scores anywhere. None of these provinces have South Nam population, much less a VC base, so my Agitation capability would be useless. The Event allows each Rally province to have a March with the first destination free; Normal Marching rules apply otherwise. As far as I can tell, "Marches" do not allow me to move beyond one area per March, even if I could pay for it.
2.) So, the VC spec in Sihanoukville marches into Kien Giang (to join its fellow lone spec). This effects no change.
3.) The VC spec in the Beak Marches through the town of Chau Doc (which being a town is not a space but rather an access point where no one can legally stop), and onto the Upper Mekong Line of Communication. This is a LoC, which could trigger activation on the move, but there aren't any COIN forces here so I stay underground. This won't immediately change the ARVN's Econ level, but I'm threatening it for later!
4.) My spec in the Fishook has a number of exit options, and after a lot of internal debate I choose to send it onto the Route 14 LoC. This threatens the ARVN's Econ level for later.
5.) Finally my spec in Northeast Cambodia moves into Pleiku Province (its only South Nam option, although I could have moved it north into Laos or south into the Fishook.) This puts Team North forces in the province equal to Team South forces, and nixes COIN control, reducing ARVN's score by 1 point from 38 to 37.
6.) Next up, the NVA's share of this Event. I Rally one NVA spec each for the same four Cambodian provinces. (Theoretically I could have brought more into the Parrot's Beak with my Base there, but the Trail is currently kaput.) This changes no track marks.
7.) After a lot of debate, I decide to only March one spec, from Sihanoukville to the Parrot's Beak. This changes no track marks.
8.) This Event, as far as I can tell, only counts as one Rally (per faction) with any or all of four free target provinces. Consequently, the NVA cannot improve the Trail four times. But I can improve it once! -- which I do, increasing its level from 0 to 1 and deducting 2 NVA resources from 9 to 7.
With this, initiative goes to AzTank's US faction. He has the choice of passing (not likely) or doing a full operation and special activity (which scares me).
Since we're now starting to cram a bunch of cubes into single provinces, I am experimenting with reducing their scale by five clicks. This should also help when-if-ever we start putting multiple specs and divisions onto the LoCs.
Az, here are the updated board snapshots (incorporating your previous ARVN action and my VC and NVA actions):
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Oh, argh, I forgot to move my NVA cylinder to the Event for that snapshot. Just pretend it's there. #:-)
US will do an op and special op
First, sweep. two parts
-move 2 US troops from Ba Xuyuen to Kien Giang, and activate the two VC Guerrillas there.
-sweep in Quang Tri (surprise, surprise). I have five units there, so activate 5 Guerrillas
For special,
The hammer again. Air Strike.
Kill the 2 Guerrillas in Kien Giang. Kill 2 VC and 2 NVA guerrillas in Quang Tri. Degrade the trail back down to 0
I see I shall have a busy afternoon when I get home in a few minutes... :knuppel2:
TURN SEVEN -- US 2nd CHOICE
---------------------------
As expected the US doesn't pass (darn!), but instead OH GOD I HATE AMERICAN FIREPOWER SO VERY VERY MUCCHHHH!!!!
(...um, I mean playing as the NVA/VC. Go USA! If you can see it you can hit it; if you can hit it you can kill it! O0 )
AzTank chooses to make his first Sweep of the game now as his main operation, and implementing this before his special op. What's a sweep?
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Well, as with his other ops it costs nothing for him to do and can affect as many valid targets as he wants. For nothing. His target areas can be any areas on the map within reach of his military divisions. He can only move those Troops (green cubes), not his Specs, and he can only move each of those cubes one area in any direction, but (unlike my typical VC and NVA moves) he can effectively ignore or rather make convenient use of any Lines of Communication to extent his reach, so long as I don't have any forces on the LoCs he's trying to use. Alternately, he can also just target those LoCs (within his reach)! (I gather he cannot however stop in the LoCs unless I have forces there -- he has to end at a nominal population area otherwise. I say "nominal" because he could end up in zero pop areas, too, except in "North Vietnam".)
Once his Troops arrive at his target areas, his Troops -- possibly working with Irregulars (his green specs) already in the target area -- will automatically flip over one Guerilla (my red or blue specs) per US cube or spec. This sets them up to be shot at later, unless I can hide them again (or eliminate his spotters) before he gets a chance.
So specifically he moves 2 US cubes from Ba Xuyen (that province southwest of Saigon where he has been building up power) across Route 4 (a zero-point LoC between the city of Can Tho and the coastal town of Bac Lieu) into Kien Giang - An Xuyen province (the southernmost area in South Nam, and on the game map); to flip up my two VC specs there...
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...and then up in Quang Tri - Thua Thien (that northernmost South Nam province we've been tussling over), he doesn't even have to move anyone in to Sweep it! He activates 5 of my specs there; but since he neglects to mention precisely which ones, I'll be interpreting that (slightly) in my favor soon. >:D (Don't worry, I can assure you it sure won't be much... :buck2: )
I'll get no opportunity to scurry my little roaches away again either: his special activity is that dangnable Air Strike again! As always, he can choose up to a total of six targets in any of up to six spaces where he has US forces, so naturally he chooses the 2 revealed VC specs in Kien Gang, 2 revealed VC specs in Quang Tri and 2 revealed NVA specs in Quang Tri: that's 6 targets in 2 provinces. (He can't target my VC base yet since I still have specs guarding it.)
Now for the logic parsing. ;) He says he uncovers 5 specs in Quang Tri, but he didn't say which ones and he only specified which four he chose to destroy. I had four red and two blue underground, plus one VC spec already active. I must turn over at least 2 red specs, since he destroys those. And I must turn over at least one blue spec, since he destroys two of them (and one can already be targeted). That leaves two specs undetailed. So I can either turn over my remaining two NVA specs and keep my remaining VC spec hidden; or I can turn over one NVA and my remaining blue spec. On the balance I'd rather keep at least one NVA spec hidden than a remaining blue spec, so since he didn't specify I choose you, blue...speckachoo.
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Oh, and he bombs the Trail back to the stone age again because why not do that for free when he can? :P
Quang Tri now has more Team South forces than Team North, so gains COIN control, ditto Kien Giang, giving both of the 2 population points (for total) to ARVN's score from 37 to 41.
Thus ends Turn Seven, and I trust you can see a hellish dilemma for me: I pretty much need those Events, but if I take one when the US has second initiative then he can Air Strike me into oblivion. I also pretty much need my special activities if I get a chance, but if I do then he can take the Events -- which are often things like that LRRP which he nuked me with on Turn One.
Annnnd... now I have a crushing dilemma choice coming up next Turn. :hide:
TURN EIGHT -- VC 1st CHOICE
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Well, what I really don't need now is... is...
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AGH DANGGGGITTTT!
I mean, sure, that'll be a debuff for Team South when it comes into play, but still. This means I can't try to prep further as the NVA for harvesting resources. sigh. It also makes my choice for the VC this turn more painful if anything.
After a ton of thinking, I realize: I'm thinking about all this the wrong way.
For reasons I may make apparent soon. Ahem.
Here we go:
1.) Spend one resource (from 13 to 12) Rallying in Tay Ninh, to convert two VC specs to a Base. This increases VC score from 35 to 36 -- putting them into the win trigger.
2.) Spend one resource (from 12 to 11) Rallying Binh Dinh to convert two VC specs there to a Base. VC's score goes up again by one from 36 to 37. (The Base here is likely to be vulnerable to the US spec later, but I don't much care.)
I'm going to hold off putting my last Base down, in case I haven't understood properly and this strategy doesn't work (but even then this will be helpful later.) Note that my expenses so far will be recovered totally next Turn (1 per base).
3.) Spend one resource (from 11 to 10) Rallying Quang Tri to bring in 2 (pop) + 1 (VC Base) = 3 hidden VC specs. This makes Team North outnumber Team South again, taking away COIN control again, reducing ARVN's score by 2 pop points from 41 to 39.
I want to save 4 specs for Rallying onto the board somewhere later. So I'm only going to put down another 3 (out of my maximum of 30 specs). Where?
4.) Spend 3 resources (from 11 to 8) putting 1 VC spec in each of Quang Nam (just south of Quang Tri); Kien Phong (which has a much of ARVN divisions but no support for Saigon); and one in Kien Giang (the southernmost province, where Az just knocked me out. But I'll be sneaky about coming back, tee hee.)
So Az! -- here's the new updated screenshots:
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Here are the current and upcoming cards again:
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You have 5 Police divisions Available; and ten Troop divisions out of play (if that makes any difference).
Your options are to pass to gain 3 Resources, or to play one Limited Op without special activity.
Sorry for the delay, was traveling.
After much deliberation, ARVN will pass.
TURN EIGHT -- ARVN 2nd CHOICE
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I'm a tad surprised that AzTank passes the ARVN's choice. But not too surprised. ARVN picks up 3 Resources, from 34 to 37.
That ends Turn Eight, and we might as well segue straight into Turn Nine.
TURN NINE -- 2nd COUP (Phase 1 of 6)
------------------------------------
The second Coup card of the game now goes active as Turn Nine starts: Air Marshal Nguen Cao Ky takes over the regime.
Phase 0.) (Officially it isn't called that, but this check still happens before the scoring phases start, so it might as well be its own phase. ;) ) There are no immediate effects, but a new lasting effect starts: ARVN or US Pacification efforts will now cost 4 Resources instead of 3. This will last until game end or until the next successful Coup. The prior effect, which grants extra Patronage if ARVN manages to take a Govern special action, stops.
Phase 1.) Checking the victory point track, the Viet Cong have triggered ours with a score of 37 out of 36!
Is the game over? Well, no one else has passed their mark (although the US is close, sitting at 50 out of 51 -- they have to pass 50 like the VC have to pass 35.) But we're playing a Team game, so does that make a difference?
For the US and ARVN, yes: both factions must have each passed 50 points in order for their Team to win a victory check, and even then they use the lower victory margin between the two as their official score.
For the NVA and VC, however... kind of. If this was the final possible scoring check, we would use the lower of our relative scores (the NVA in this case) to compare with the lower of Team South's scores. But in a normal victory check, if either of us has passed the post, Team North wins: and the Viet Cong has passed the post!
(Technically, if either or both of us have passed the post, we win if both of Team South haven't or if they both have but our higher margin beats their lower margin. Team North gets a special debuff to balance out this preferential scoring: we can't share resources with each other, when both factions are controlled by the same player.)
Just to double check things:
NVA = 0 (NVA pop control) + 5 (out of 9 possible Bases anywhere on the map) = 5 points minus 18 = -13 victory margin.
ARVN = 15 (Patronage) + 24 (COIN pop contro) = 39 points minus 50 = -11 victory margin.
US = 19 (available Troops at home) + 1 (available Bases at home) + 30 (active and passive population support for Saigon) = 50 points - 50 points = 0 victory margin.
VC = 8 (out of 9 possible bases anywhere on the map) + 29 (active and passive population opposition for Saigon) = 37 points - 35 points = +2 victory margin.
Annnnd... much to my surprise, that's the game! An early VC win!
Incidentally, there was some kind of weird error where the NVA lost a base completely off the board. I suspect it happened when I was adjusting the spec sizes for the NVA. That's why in the most recent north-map snapshot, there's a red Base piece missing from slot 7 of the NVA's Available box. I didn't even notice until I was checking the score! I combed the map thoroughly, but only found 5 Bases deployed, which are also the only 5 bases I recall being deployed. It's also possible I lost the base when working out an alternative NVA move a few turns ago, when I considered building up southern infrastructure and specs down at the Parrot's Beak: I would have ended up with two bases there, and a sizeable number of specs. But I decided not to go with that plan and to march my NVA Troops (together with some gathered specs) up north into Quang Tri instead. Whereupon AzTank nuked them off the map from orbit. ::)
...so, I guess that's the game? Az, does your tally reach the same conclusion?
If it does, I'll open the floor for post-game analysis.
You win...wow, caught me by surprise. I keep having to remind myself how asymmetrical the game is. Military victory doesn't always translate into winning. Congrats!!!
I'll write up some analysis later tonight when I get back. Of course anyone is free to comment (especially you Az), ask questions of us, etc.
JRP'S POST-GAME ANALYSIS
------------------------
I adore this game and this game system. I wish GMT would hire someone to create a legitimate Tabletop Simulator module for it. The 'real' game is necessarily pricey, and might take a while to get reprinted -- and even then, who knows when I'd ever get a chance to play it with anyone? Plus it's not a game I can feasibly put out on a table physically where I live and solo, although it does have at least two solo options. I'm seriously thinking of doing a video series of JRP vs JRP vs JRP vs JRP, playing all four factions against each other, for the lulz. (The normal solo option would be to use the "bot" rules for three of the four factions.)
The current TTS module, should anyone want to play it, contains a few errors that I've detected and fixed in my own copy. Drop me a line and I'll explain where they are and how to fix them (easily done). I'm hoping since it's based on the Vassal module that GMT is okay with its existence, but if they take it away I won't blame them. BUT GET A LEGITIMATE VERSION DONE FOR TTS, BRING IN SOME MONEY WHILE YOU'RE AT IT! :bd:
In regard to the strategic commentary for this particular playthrough:
1.) Obviously AzTank caught a lucky break on the first draw where he could use the US to punch the NVA badly off the map out of the gate. I had to spend several turns trying to rebuild the NVA into being able to do anything worthwhile at all. This effort wasn't helped by...
2.) Drawing the first Coup card so early. This did hurt the ARVN faction, too, as it meant Az couldn't farm Aid increases by early Training. But ARVN starts out swimming in cash already, and the early Coup allowed him to harvest a ton more (nearly the max 75 resources allowable!) and then spend them profligately. This actually pushed the US past their win trigger briefly, and while that wasn't going to win without ARVN, too, Az's yellow team wasn't very far behind at the time. Moreover, there aren't many ways for the NVA to get resources to work with, especially in a 2-player game: in a 4 (or 3) player game, Team North can negotiate resource trades, which notice will usually be to the benefit of the Viet Cong (since they have more resources to trade favors for). In a 2 player game, the NVA is stuck with whatever they can eke up. And with my bases blasted off the map, I couldn't eke much!
It wasn't all doom and gloom though.
3.) I pulled a few good cards in a row, enough to even get the NVA back up to something like speed in time to try... well, something.
4.) Walking my hard-spent six whole NVA divisions into range of AzTank's Air Strike was a rookie mistake. It did end up contributing to my win in a backhanded way, but not on purpose. I mean, I would have done it on purpose, too, had I seen reason to do so! -- but I can't honestly say I even saw them being obliterated that quickly. In a four player game, I would have lost. Hard. But then, in a four player game, I wouldn't have been supporting the VC so much, and would have been acting against them a little. (Not a lot, because I didn't have much opportunity to do so, but a little.)
5.) The VC can't fight much or well, so I just concentrated on using my good initial Full Campaign starting situation to...
5.1.) Secure high population areas as much as I could -- and I started with most of them. That meant dropping specs in when given some good opportunities, and then converting those to bases on the board with spec support.
5.2.) Take advantage of high opposition to tax for a good early resource boost.
5.3.) Spend that resource boost Agitating, both during the early Coup and with my lucky "Cadre" permanent ability draw. This directly helped my score, in high population areas notice, and also indirectly helped me fund more taxing since there's a profit to be made in that exchange.
5.4.) Use those resources, and some good card draws, to also put as many of my forces on the board early as I could. I was going to need specs to accomplish much of anything, and Bases of course translated directly to my score -- plus allowing me to get specs more effectively onto the board, in high pop areas remember which also helped.
It shouldn't be any surprise I won quickly with that plan: if I'm left alone in my high pop starting areas, those convert directly to a high score by opposition, and then bases on the map to put me over the top.
...except it did kind of surprise me. I wasn't expecting to be left alone that long! When the second coup arrived, I was legitimately annoyed that this was going to hobble my NVA plans agaaaaiiinnnnn!! But I had also forgotten that Team North only needs one faction past the post to trigger a win during a coup.
I have to say, it's a classic soft-win by the VC. Ideally this is how they would have won the civil war historically, too! -- except for, y'know', the murder and terror they just couldn't help inflicting on their fellow south Namians. ::) You may have noticed I didn't bother with terror tactics, only taxation. However:
6.) Not realizing how close I was to winning already, and expecting to feel the burn any time now, I was already starting on my first intentional plan: moving out to harass the Lines of Communication and mess with ARVN's economy. Not a terror tactic exactly, but still sabotage. I would have started targeting US Troops in ambushes, too (and bases if I could get them), in order to get as many as possible off the map and out of play altogether. That was a lonnnng term plan: but I had actually debated hard with myself over whether to spend my Eighth Turn ambushing at least one more US cube so that at least one would be sent out of play during the relevant scoring phase. (Plus this would mess with ARVN's aid.) Then I realized I was close enough to putt in for a win, maybe.
I thought I couldn't see anything for ARVN to do about it, with the Limited Op I allowed him, but I wasn't sure. Even if I had been wrong, though, I would have been okay about it: getting blue forces on the map was still my first priority.
7.) Basically, Team South lost by not paying the VC enough attention quickly enough; but also somewhat randomly as the VC did get some good draws even if not galactic destruction ones. Az was starting to deal with the VC problem toward the end, but that should have started sooner. How, and how sooner?
8.) I'm going to say there were two crucial mistakes in hindsight, one much more important than the other. I'll be curious if Az agrees.
8.1.) The minor mistake was blasting my NVA cubes off the map. Yes, letting them stay a turn or more was going to be trouble, but if he had put his Air Strike to work elsewhere along with more extensive sweeping on that turn, he could have removed one or more VC bases, knocking my build-up off the rails. If you're thinking "Wait, I really can't see how Az would have done that, because he didn't have enough US forces on the map to get to your less protected VC bases..."
8.2.) The major mistake, was trying to keep his US score in range to putt in, when he needed both factions up to win. Specifically, he should have taken the opportunity of that early first Coup to dump the maximum US Troops on the map, in strategic areas for rolling out after the Coup. Yes, that would have tanked his score, but he needed to be tanking mine by taking the fight to the VC bases and working on pacifying hearts and minds -- which would have not only tanked my score but brought his score back up by the same proportion eventually! He might not have won on Turn Nine, but he would have kept me from winning (I think), and put Team South on a path to crushing my opposition across the map; converting that to support for the US score (in high pop areas remember because I had drummed up a lot of opposition there); and increasing COIN control (for ARVN's score) while also setting up ARVN to convert some of that eventual Support to Patronage a few times.
In short, I think that in Team play if the Team South factions don't have about the same score at any time then the South player isn't playing as effectively as he could. Team North can sacrifice one faction position to advance the other and win: when the hammer is falling on the NVA nail, it isn't falling on the VC nails.