This is no meme. This is no April Fool's Joke.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/victoria-3-dev-diary-0.1475078/
It's about time!
Now i have to play Victoria 2 as well!
Interesting. I don't know that I trust modern Paradox to pull this off, being honest. The claims of "no mana" sound promising, but I'm going to be holding my excitement until we see some actual gameplay. I do wonder how they cracked the problem of nobody knowing how the economy worked in the original game, or if they just made a whole new system from scratch.
I'm excited for this.
Even with all of their flaws I still like the games Paradox puts out. I agree with the consensus that going public probably wasn't the best decision for them but the video game industry is tough.
Quote from: al_infierno on May 21, 2021, 03:31:25 PM
Interesting. I don't know that I trust modern Paradox to pull this off, being honest. The claims of "no mana" sound promising, but I'm going to be holding my excitement until we see some actual gameplay. I do wonder how they cracked the problem of nobody knowing how the economy worked in the original game, or if they just made a whole new system from scratch.
I like the idea, but like you I'm cautious as Paradox seem to have some serious problems at the moment. If they can pull it off and better than Vicky2 then I will be very excited about it.
Quote from: al_infierno on May 21, 2021, 03:31:25 PM
I do wonder how they cracked the problem of nobody knowing how the economy worked in the original game, or if they just made a whole new system from scratch.
Considering that they included a modified form of it in Imperator, I can't say I'm optimistic about this. ;)
Fortunately, the economy tended to work itself in Vicky2, at least in my experience.
Quote from: JasonPratt on May 22, 2021, 12:31:09 AM
Fortunately, the economy tended to work itself in Vicky2, at least in my experience.
Assuming you restarted the game semi-regularly.... :buck2:
Would like to see where they go with this title, after Crusader Kings 3 I have high expectations for it.
"Considering that they included a modified form of it in Imperator, I can't say I'm optimistic about this. ;)"
I have zero confidence that Paradox will get this right. I'm glad they're finally doing Vic 3 but after Imp.Rome
and Empire of Sin I just don't know about Paradox anymore. They seem to be drifting.
Quote from: gregb41352 on May 22, 2021, 08:44:03 PM
"Considering that they included a modified form of it in Imperator, I can't say I'm optimistic about this. ;)"
I have zero confidence that Paradox will get this right. I'm glad they're finally doing Vic 3 but after Imp.Rome
and Empire of Sin I just don't know about Paradox anymore. They seem to be drifting.
+1
Sad, because Vic is my favorite paradox title.
I'm a bit worried that they're going to try to sanitize much of the history in order to appeal to present day morality and avoid controversy now that they're publicly traded.
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on May 22, 2021, 11:27:31 PM
I'm a bit worried that they're going to try to sanitize much of the history in order to appeal to present day morality and avoid controversy now that they're publicly traded.
Paradox have dropped the ball a couple of times recently but I don't think CK3 could be said to have adjusted its gameplay mechanics to "sanitize much of the history to appeal to modern day morality" given the commonplace incest and familial murder plots !
I never played Vicky 1 or 2 though have just picked up Vicky 2 for a song to try and learn some mechanics and get into the game before Vicky 3 arrives. It is a period of history I love so I have no idea why I passed it by.
I have zero expectations given the trend of Paradox lately, but I will say they are at least saying the right things so far and Wiz is the only person I'd even remotely trust to do a decent job. The fact that there's no mana and no mission trees already removes two of the biggest knocks on modern Paradox design philosophy. My gut tells me the game will still pale in comparison to Vic 2 and I'd highly recommend not pre-ordering. Paradox really needs to learn to not take customers for granted and if they want my money then they'll have to knock this one out of the park on release. No more pay $60 and wait 3 years for another $100 in DLC, patches, and mods to flesh out the game.
Having bought Paradox games for almost 20 years, I'm pretty much done with the studio but I look forward to seeing the reviews on this after it drops. Until then it's not worth the time following given how many bridges they've burned.
Quote from: Bamilus on May 23, 2021, 10:44:03 AM
I have zero expectations given the trend of Paradox lately, but I will say they are at least saying the right things so far and Wiz is the only person I'd even remotely trust to do a decent job. The fact that there's no mana and no mission trees already removes two of the biggest knocks on modern Paradox design philosophy. My gut tells me the game will still pale in comparison to Vic 2 and I'd highly recommend not pre-ordering. Paradox really needs to learn to not take customers for granted and if they want my money then they'll have to knock this one out of the park on release. No more pay $60 and wait 3 years for another $100 in DLC, patches, and mods to flesh out the game.
Having bought Paradox games for almost 20 years, I'm pretty much done with the studio but I look forward to seeing the reviews on this after it drops. Until then it's not worth the time following given how many bridges they've burned.
Agree with all the points Bamilus made bere. Definitely no pre order from me either.
If I get into Vicky2 then I may try and hold out for a year or so post release so I can pick it up cheaper and more complete.
Quote from: Bamilus on May 23, 2021, 10:44:03 AM
I have zero expectations given the trend of Paradox lately, but I will say they are at least saying the right things so far and Wiz is the only person I'd even remotely trust to do a decent job. The fact that there's no mana and no mission trees already removes two of the biggest knocks on modern Paradox design philosophy. My gut tells me the game will still pale in comparison to Vic 2 and I'd highly recommend not pre-ordering. Paradox really needs to learn to not take customers for granted and if they want my money then they'll have to knock this one out of the park on release. No more pay $60 and wait 3 years for another $100 in DLC, patches, and mods to flesh out the game.
Having bought Paradox games for almost 20 years, I'm pretty much done with the studio but I look forward to seeing the reviews on this after it drops. Until then it's not worth the time following given how many bridges they've burned.
+1
Well said. Paradox titles are no longer day 1 must buy for me.
"I'm a bit worried that they're going to try to sanitize much of the history in order to appeal to present day morality and avoid controversy now that they're publicly traded."
This exactly!
Quote from: gregb41352 on May 23, 2021, 05:58:27 PM
"I'm a bit worried that they're going to try to sanitize much of the history in order to appeal to present day morality and avoid controversy now that they're publicly traded."
This exactly!
The newest dev diary has my hopes up that this won't be the case. It looks like the game will include a detailed and historically authentic slavery system.
Quote"Through our Pop system we are trying to represent every individual human on the planet from 1836," wrote Anward, "so what statement would we be making if we simply wrote all enslaved individuals out of history, or reduced them into an abstract set of modifiers?"
I like how, in addition to pops, this game looks to be including characters similar to the Crusader Kings series. Screenie below taken from the PCG article.
(https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/K6ad2NU9WQDZYmgxa3hraF-970-80.png.webp)
https://www.pcgamer.com/victoria-3-devs-on-handling-slavery-in-a-historical-strategy-game/
That slavery is represented makes sense. I would think as time marched on you would get penalized, or incentivised not to continue with slavery as a late-game mechanic.
I would consider this a day one purchase. I enjoy the fact that I would be forced to take a VIII non-military route to be successful. And in doing so make use of non-military game mechanics, where if it's the purely military focus, I would have naturally concentrated on.
Similar to CK3 focus on intrigue, spymaster actions.
Quote from: gregb41352 on May 23, 2021, 05:58:27 PM
"I'm a bit worried that they're going to try to sanitize much of the history in order to appeal to present day morality and avoid controversy now that they're publicly traded."
This exactly!
Exactly my thoughts as well.
Although I am after an economic simulator I am less interested in a political one though. I don't mind the war.
I wonder why politics is not covered more as a first person sort of deal in these games.
Necro thread... ARIIIISE!
1836 to 1936, just as we hoped. Epic WW1 simulator with lots of buildup, reborn! :coolsmiley:
(WW1 not guaranteed and probably not well implemented if so.)
I'm curious and hopeful for how the new war system will pan out
A few years ago I'd have wanted more control of individual units. But years of AI woes leads open to more abstraction
All the cool kids want Victoria III for all the WW1 aspects of it. 8)
Interesting. I'll wait and see on this one. I have yet to even crack open EU IV.
Didn't Vicky 2 have a Great War system? Is the expectation that the WW1 system in Vicky 3 will be different?
Quote from: al_infierno on June 14, 2022, 05:27:54 PM
Didn't Vicky 2 have a Great War system? Is the expectation that the WW1 system in Vicky 3 will be different?
Considering how massively the game seems to be abstracting and sidetracking war, I wouldn't heavily count in Vicky 3 making the Great War a focus.
Quote from: JasonPratt on June 14, 2022, 07:24:19 AM
Necro thread... ARIIIISE!
1836 to 1936, just as we hoped. Epic WW1 simulator with lots of buildup, reborn! :coolsmiley:
(WW1 not guaranteed and probably not well implemented if so.)
You hoped for an 1836 start, does EU 4 go to 1836 now? Did they mention an EU4-V3 converter?
Re 1836 start: it was more of the 1936 that we hoped for; and understandably they wouldn't kick off with the Nappy wars, and would have to start reasonably past those. I recall Vicky2 starting around then, too, but I haven't played it for a while and I'm too lazy to go look yet not too lazy to write rambling posts on a message board while correcting my speling.
:buck2:
Ditto EU4, I recall it goes farther than I was expecting, but I can't recall if that includes up to V2's start.
Quote from: al_infierno on June 14, 2022, 05:27:54 PM
Didn't Vicky 2 have a Great War system? Is the expectation that the WW1 system in Vicky 3 will be different?
Oh, it has SO MUCH Great War that the game often breaks out into three or four late game wars that it's eager to label as Great Wars!
Without the affectionate sarcasm directed toward the game: it has... period-appropriate kit wars during and past the time period (out to the nominal start for HOI). The Great Powers can get involved in these wars fighting directly against each other naturally. Is it World War I? .....answer unclear, try again later.
To be fair, the 80 years prep (and there wasn't a shorter scenario for it, focusing on WW1's direct setup and execution) naturally tends to diverge so much toward the end of the game period, that it might be difficult to even intentionally set up something recognizable as "World War I". A player can hardly get the ACW and other pre-20th century wars to trigger off recognizably, though the code is ready to recognize something as being those-wars.
^ Thanks for the clarification, I only vaguely remember Vicky 2 but I do recall really weird "Great Wars" happening in the 1890s, to the point that two or three had usually occurred by 1914 ???
Quote from: JasonPratt on June 14, 2022, 08:49:00 PM
Without the affectionate sarcasm directed toward the game: it has... period-appropriate kit wars during and past the time period (out to the nominal start for HOI). The Great Powers can get involved in these wars fighting directly against each other naturally. Is it World War I? .....answer unclear, try again later.
To be fair, the 80 years prep (and there wasn't a shorter scenario for it, focusing on WW1's direct setup and execution) naturally tends to diverge so much toward the end of the game period, that it might be difficult to even intentionally set up something recognizable as "World War I". A player can hardly get the ACW and other pre-20th century wars to trigger off recognizably, though the code is ready to recognize something as being those-wars.
And that's because Vicky 2 is a dialectic simulator.
It's entirely build and designed around a logical, computerized simulation of the Marxist dialectic.
Consciousness increases until there's a tipping point where the proletariat eventually can't be contained and will, always, overthrow the bourgeoisie and if the player tries to stop that he's in a mess of constant whack a mole on endless horeds of bomb throwing anarchists.
Great wars pop up over and over because everyone's in turmoil and the AI, and even the player can't really control it.
Or at least that was my experience on the builds I played.
It was a fascinating simulation of unrealistic pure Marxism with the pops making the logical decisions for their class position and utterly devoid of natural emotional impulse.
No wonder the game always made me so angry! :2funny:
A chaos simulator?
There are vids around of the new war system
No doubt, 3 or 4 years and we'll get a WW1 DLC
Edited- though vanilla is never going to be vert WW1 ish from a grog's trench
But paradox modders will shine so long as the game doesn't crash and burn
Release date is October 25rh....
Gameplay reveal stream...
I've watched a couple of videos now, and it seems like combat is abstracted. That may be OK because of the deep emphasis on economy, society etc.
But I would like to see at least the same level of combat detail seen in the other Paradox games. Vicky II was fine. Hopefully VIII is at least equal to that.
Quote from: ArizonaTank on August 31, 2022, 01:10:31 PM
I've watched a couple of videos now, and it seems like combat is abstracted. That may be OK because of the deep emphasis on economy, society etc.
But I would like to see at least the same level of combat detail seen in the other Paradox games. Vicky II was fine. Hopefully VIII is at least equal to that.
That is exactly what I had hoped had improved. Everything else did not really need an update.
^Well, the engine certainly needed updating.
Quote from: ArizonaTank on August 31, 2022, 01:10:31 PM
I've watched a couple of videos now, and it seems like combat is abstracted. That may be OK because of the deep emphasis on economy, society etc.
But I would like to see at least the same level of combat detail seen in the other Paradox games. Vicky II was fine. Hopefully VIII is at least equal to that.
I have heard the combat being more abstracted and not a big part of the game. Didn't play the other versions, was that the same in those? Any idea what that means is abstracted, do you have any control over wars at all?
Quote from: ArizonaTank on August 31, 2022, 01:10:31 PM
But I would like to see at least the same level of combat detail seen in the other Paradox games. Vicky II was fine. Hopefully VIII is at least equal to that.
+1
Dumbing combat kills the deal for me. The whole attraction of the period is the post CW to pre WW2 weapons set.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on September 01, 2022, 09:04:54 AM
Didn't play the other versions, was that the same in those? Any idea what that means is abstracted, do you have any control over wars at all?
No, it wasn't the same in the other versions.
Combat in prior versions was container army based similar to other paradox titles. It had a bit of issues with whack a mole, again a common Paradox issue, and it didn't quite handle the transition from movement based army warfare to large frontage combat the way you'd expect a 19th-20th century transitional game to do.
Rather than work at trying to fix that, they seem to have just totally gone over to the idea that wars are waged on fronts beyond the control of the nation's leader, so you're just assigning numbers and leaders to borders. It's very macro leadership level, imagining that a Emperor/King/PM/President would have very little say on actual military affairs and would largely leave that up to his assigned generals.
I'm not sure how popular this approach will be. It's put me off getting Vicky 3 at release, and that's unfortunate because I was a huge fan of the other titles.
Knowing Paradox they'll likely trash the entire system and totally redo it in a paid DLC or three later.
Quote from: SirAndrewD on September 01, 2022, 10:33:44 AM
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on September 01, 2022, 09:04:54 AM
Didn't play the other versions, was that the same in those? Any idea what that means is abstracted, do you have any control over wars at all?
No, it wasn't the same in the other versions.
Combat in prior versions was container army based similar to other paradox titles. It had a bit of issues with whack a mole, again a common Paradox issue, and it didn't quite handle the transition from movement based army warfare to large frontage combat the way you'd expect a 19th-20th century transitional game to do.
Rather than work at trying to fix that, they seem to have just totally gone over to the idea that wars are waged on fronts beyond the control of the nation's leader, so you're just assigning numbers and leaders to borders. It's very macro leadership level, imagining that a Emperor/King/PM/President would have very little say on actual military affairs and would largely leave that up to his assigned generals.
I'm not sure how popular this approach will be. It's put me off getting Vicky 3 at release, and that's unfortunate because I was a huge fan of the other titles.
Knowing Paradox they'll likely trash the entire system and totally redo it in a paid DLC or three later.
Sounds like it will be a 19th century "Democracy X"...might be interesting, but probably only on first big discount.
About a year ago I picked up an HOI4 Humble Bundle for about $20 with 3-4 DLC. I did the same for EU4 a few years before that. That's my model for Paradox titles: Wait about 4 years and get the main product and some DLCs for cheap. If I like it a lot, I might buy another DLC or two when it's on sale on Steam.
Homey don't play the $100+ for a functional game game.
EDIT: That said, I do look forward to this. I like the era and got a number of hours out of Vicky2.
Cheers,
CC
;D
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/93qjwCxemDVFCGI4nx/giphy.gif)
^
^^
Agreed!
Quote from: Commander Cody on September 05, 2022, 02:38:45 AM
About a year ago I picked up an HOI4 Humble Bundle for about $20 with 3-4 DLC. I did the same for EU4 a few years before that. That's my model for Paradox titles: Wait about 4 years and get the main product and some DLCs for cheap. If I like it a lot, I might buy another DLC or two when it's on sale on Steam.
Homey don't play the $100+ for a functional game game.
EDIT: That said, I do look forward to this. I like the era and got a number of hours out of Vicky2.
Cheers,
CC
That's been the way to handle Paradox for almost two decades.
I haven't even touched Vicky2 because I'm still wrapped up in Vicky1.
It's coming out in a couple days. Anyone gonna bite the musketball on this one?
Not me I am afraid. I was really keen until I found out they HOI IV ed the combat... i.e. downgraded it from the last one.
I played a little of vicky and loved the economic system and the combat system was not bad but could have really lightened up the game.... I guess I want to see pith helmets total war style with complex vicky economy. I might still pick up Vicky when it comes down in price. Maybe they will upgrade combat in a DLC.
That reminds me. The Pith Helmet is usually depicted as the hat of the silly British who know nothing of how to survive in hot climates. Was the helmet actually any good?
Quote from: Destraex on October 24, 2022, 04:17:58 AM
Not me I am afraid. I was really keen until I found out they HOI IV ed the combat... i.e. downgraded it from the last one.
I played a little of vicky and loved the economic system and the combat system was not bad but could have really lightened up the game.... I guess I want to see pith helmets total war style with complex vicky economy. I might still pick up Vicky when it comes down in price. Maybe they will upgrade combat in a DLC.
That reminds me. The Pith Helmet is usually depicted as the hat of the silly British who know nothing of how to survive in hot climates. Was the helmet actually any good?
Well considering they were wearing leather shakos in europe, I'd say pith helmets would be quit appropriate for tropical climates. Steel helmets came in during WWI due to the horrendous artillery casualties. Remember Victorian period was a carry over of the pomp and circumstance of the napoleonics.
Not sure what to make of the army and combat system. I'm leaning toward disappointment, but depending on how the rest of the game is structured and balanced out, it might not be too bad.
Also disappointed they decided to make it a steam exclusive and not be available on Game Pass like most other Paradox titles...
It looks like they took the HOI 4 system a few steps further and removed the little dudes with muskets off the map entirely. Not sure I like the idea of controlling a "frontline" instead of individual armies. Makes sense for the WW1 era of the game, but not for Civil War fighting for example.
Quote from: al_infierno on October 24, 2022, 02:07:59 PM
It looks like they took the HOI 4 system a few steps further and removed the little dudes with muskets off the map entirely. Not sure I like the idea of controlling a "frontline" instead of individual armies. Makes sense for the WW1 era of the game, but not for Civil War fighting for example.
Or colonial and imperial conquest. That is my biggest concern.
Not to worry, maybe Paradox will give natives a +50% combat bonus for "Guerrilla Warfare" and call it a day ;D
They did do a dev diary on the America Civil War. I'm cautiously optimistic. Again (after Superpower 3).
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/dev-diary-43-the-american-civil-war.1521383/
I guess we'll find out soon in a few hours. Seems most reviews have been reasonably positive so far, but not sure I can really rely on them as my mind finds it difficult to wrap around. I pre-ordered it myself, but I fully expect it to be very complicated and something that I'll likely struggle at, but worth a shot.
Working my way through the early tutorial and I have to say I'm a little bit worried.
I'll continue and hopefully it will start to impress but if I had to give my opinion
as it stands I'd say they screwed the pooch. I still have some time left to refund
and at this point, I might.
:(
Oh dear.
According to reviews there actually IS a mana system in this game despite Paradox proudly proclaiming there wouldn't be one >:(
Yeah...despite being really tempted, I think I'm going to try to holdoff. The war and combat system seems to be inexcusably shallow.
^A lot of reviews on Steam saying the same about the combat, even with early reviews being 'mostly positive.'
al_infierno, what do you mean by mana system in terms of PDX? I don't quite understand.
I don't get PDX sometimes. Why do they do this? Is it to just get some stupid memes on you tube?
Ok I've played a little more and can say the following:
This is not a map painting exercise. I think that's a good thing.
More of an internal improvements and internal political focus.
I haven't gotten into any war yet so I can't comment on that area.
My 2 hours is almost up. I don't think I'll refund the game. It seems
there might be a decent'ish game in here. It's not Imperator for sure.
I think I might have been too quick to judge as in not knowing what
you're doing doesn't necessarily make it a bad game. That said, the
tutorial sucks so I'm resorting to just exploring for myself.
Quote from: CJReich46 on October 25, 2022, 02:26:53 PM
al_infierno, what do you mean by mana system in terms of PDX? I don't quite understand.
I don't get PDX sometimes. Why do they do this? Is it to just get some stupid memes on you tube?
Check out Rimmy Down Under's video on the topic, he explains it a lot better than I could:
I don't know to what extent this type of mechanic is included in Vicky 3.
As for your second question, I think you're spot on about youtube memes. That's the only explanation I can give for why Crusader Kings 3 leaned so heavily into incest to the point that you can literally create the Engineers from Prometheus by inbreeding enough, which is just freaking bonkers. :idiot2:
Thanks for that al_infierno.
I'm really going down the rabbit hole with this. They may have messed up the warfare part but
I haven't gotten into a war yet so no opinion on that.
But this is a pretty epic economic and political simulator.
So many levels of detail with how your society is set up.
Pretty damning review on Steam:
Quote
After 1.1k hours of Victoria 2, 2.7k hours of EU4, 1.1k hours of CK2 and 400 hours of CK3 I can confidently say that this is by far the worst Paradox game i have ever played.
It disappoints in every aspect and there is absolutely nothing here that wasn't done better in Victoria 2.
Many are saying that this is some complex deep Economy/Society builder games. Seeing those comments i really have to wonder if they played more than 10 minutes.
Let's talk about the game's most important feature, the economy, which also happens to be its core gameplay mechanic.
If you click on the market tab, you can see the supply/demand of goods in your market.
Sort this by demand and then build the buildings producing high demand goods, or import them.
Rinse and repeat for the entire ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ game because that is all there is to do.
Low iron? Let's build some iron mines! Low grain? Let's build some grain farms! Low infrastructure? Let's build railways!
That is literally all there is to do economically in this game, mind numbing building micro tedium.
Click trade tab --> check demand --> build high demand goods --> repeat.
But what about society? If you click on your government tab, you can see reforms you can pass. Go ahead and put the interest groups that support the reform you want into the government, then start passing it.
There isn't really a limit as to who can join the government. Which party wins an election doesn't matter because you can just invite the opposition into your government anyways.
When passing reforms, the most important thing is RNG. You will be spammed with events (Wickedness must be stamped out!) that either lower or raise pass chance. Initial pass chance doesn't matter. I passed a reform that had 10% chance to pass which eventually increased to 50%. I failed to pass a reform with 25% chance (it dropped to 0%).
In Victoria 2, you can clearly see who votes for what. High militancy will make your Upper House more likely to vote on stuff. Not a perfect system but at least you're not spending 20 years as the USA trying to pass universal suffrage.
Diplomacy doesn't seem to work well. When playing as Korea, i was unable to get any allies or help in diplo plays even though the relevant countries had attitudes that made them want to cooperate with me.
I tried allying japan who had very high relations and according to tool tip wanted an alliance or defensive pact. But no,
their ruler's focus on defending their borders made them not want a defensive ally for some reason...
Same with the USA, i was unable to do literally anything diplomatically because every AI kept saying no.
The diplomacy is comparable to EU4 on very hard difficulty, but at least the EU4 AI will ally you if it's friendly toward you.
As the USA, i started a diplo play to annex my vassal, the indian territories. For some ungodly reason France, who had good relations with me, joined the Indian territories in their war against me.
After that, despite improving relations, they kept hating me and eventually took a treaty port in Virginia. I was unable to retake the treaty port because the USA apparently has no claim to Virginia.
V2 had dynamic diplomacy with often changing alliances, and an actually somewhat intelligent diplo AI that would seek out
beneficial allies. You'd have Germany and Italy allying against France and Austria, France and Russia allying against Germany, UK and Germany allying against France etc.
On topic of AI behavior, I noticed some interesting things. Italy forms in 1840 without Modena and Lucca, and the just sits there doing nothing and not conquering any of their cores. This happened in both games i played and also in every YT video on Victoria 3 I saw where the player doesn't interfere in Italy. The NGF isn't formed in 1870 and a bunch of random North German minors are still independent. Austria never collapses or loses any territory because of their massive army.
Tai Ping rebellion happens in North West China where the muslim minority is even though it was caused by a christian sect. ACW is nonsensical with states like NY joining the CSA.
Forming Germany in V3 is worse than in V2. In V2 you fight Denmark for Sleswig-Holstein, then Austria to get all German minors in your sphere, and finally France for Alsace-Lorraine. This is pretty much how Germany formed irl.
Meanwhile in Victoria 2 you just passively annex German minors with high relations and can form Germany without even fighting any wars. It makes for a much less engaging experience than V2.
The war system is horrible, you have no control over your armies. Fronts will split up randomly, there is only ever one battle per front, said battle can have dumb numbers like 30 vs 5 brigades even if both sides have large armies, said dumb battles aren't reinforced so you lose territory because of bad RNG. Navy doesn't seem to do anything, i set my Navy to patrol coast yet still got naval invaded without a naval battle happening, i did my own naval invasion and it just never happened for some reason.
A warfare system without the ability to move armies on the map offers some interesting possibilities such as having multiple armies in the same province without them fighting a decisive battle, which would finally allow for asymmetric warfare in a paradox game.
Of course paradox hasn't taken advantage of any of these possibilities. After all, you're supposed to micro your buildings...
But I'm sure there will eventually be a 30$ DLC to address these concerns...
To summarize, this game is horrible with the only somewhat developed mechanic being the very basic and boring economy 'gameplay'. It fails in every other aspect and makes for a much worse experience than Victoria 2 with GFM, HFM, CWE, DoD or similar mods or even vanilla.
Not at all saying the person is wrong, but always find it interesting how all these conclusions can be drawn so quickly with these types of games, the person had played it 3.5 hours. Maybe all his past experience helped but I admire people who can wrap their heads so quickly and figure this all out so quickly.
I'll be lucky to even get out of the tutorials in that amount of time....
Most games these days aren't released in truly finished state. Depending on the title, you often have to wait six months or a year to reach a final conclusion on how good a game might be.
This can be especially hard for games where we loved (and had grown accustomed to) the eventually polished prequels. None of those observations mean that the author of the review above is incorrect. But there's always a flood of backlash against newly released game that seeks to follow in the footsteps of a beloved prequel. I've started planning to mostly buy games 3-6 months after release, just to save myself the heartbreak.
I've also missed out on a couple games that ended up playing quite well because they had a bumpy start (e.g., Master of Orion III).
Hmmm, how he came to that conclusion after 3.5 hours of gameplay escapes me.
I'm about 3 hours in and I'm still doing the tutorials. To each their own.
Quote from: gregb41352 on October 25, 2022, 06:00:55 PM
Hmmm, how he came to that conclusion after 3.5 hours of gameplay escapes me.
I'm about 3 hours in and I'm still doing the tutorials. To each their own.
I mean, I get that 3.5 hours isn't a great deal of time in the grand scheme of things, but I think its more than enough time to develop an overall impression of the major systems, like economy, diplomacy and war...particularly in comparison to the other titles in the series.
I'm not saying the guy's opinion is the end all be all, but he isn't the only one leveling these concerns and I don't think 3.5 hours of play time is too little to justify writing off the opinion completely.
I'm certainly glad to hear that you are enjoying it and have high hopes, so I'm looking forward to your ongoing impressions!
I just still can't bring myself to get this.
It's impossible to convince me that in a year's time the combat system along with a large percentage of the game won't be an entirely different experience with DLC.
The current Paradox system has put me off getting vanilla releases pretty much from now on.
Quote from: SirAndrewD on October 25, 2022, 06:49:27 PM
The current Paradox system has put me off getting vanilla releases pretty much from now on.
This, Paradox have set us up to expect game-changing DLCs that add whole new (often sorely lacking from vanilla) features, so I might as well wait and see until the game mechanics are fully developed before springing.
The game is not broken. The reviews on STEAM are mostly generally positive, with some negative reviews from players not happy with the military changes, the GUI etc. I've seen this response with every new Paradox release. However, it is possibly the most daunting Paradox game I've seen so far. The depth is a little intimidating, and I think understanding how to play properly will require some investment of time.
Proper tutorials will help.
Quote from: Ian C on October 26, 2022, 05:04:29 AM
The game is not broken. The reviews on STEAM are mostly generally positive, with some negative reviews from players not happy with the military changes, the GUI etc. I've seen this response with every new Paradox release. However, it is possibly the most daunting Paradox game I've seen so far. The depth is a little intimidating, and I think understanding how to play properly will require some investment of time.
Proper tutorials will help.
Can you explain what is so "deep" about it? Many seem to be suggesting that there is no basis for this claim and that the game is wide as an ocean, but about as deep as a puddle. At least with respect to the military system, this seems more accurate than not.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on October 26, 2022, 05:28:14 AM
Can you explain what is so "deep" about it? Many seem to be suggesting that there is no basis for this claim and that the game is wide as an ocean, but about as deep as a puddle. At least with respect to the military system, this seems more accurate than not.
Did they say what kind of depth they were expecting or wanted? Did they want it simpler or more complex? The way I see it, 'Deep' as in that there are a lot of systems at work that interact with each other to contribute to success (or not). There are a lot of buttons sliders and levers to pull. It looks 'deep' to me, as I expect that to master the game you have to learn the relationship of a lot of different things in order to achieve success. Or maybe I'm being blinded by those buttons and levers.
The military 'system' in my view, at first look, is rather shallow. It's the most simplified system for warfare I've ever seen in a strategy game. It's like Paradox didn't want to give military gamers anything to enjoy. As a diplomatic/economic/demographic sim, it does the military basics - it displays fronts, gives battle statistics, casualties, but that's it. If you are role-playing a head of state, then it achieves that role - you give the general war orders and watch them unfold, but I'm not sure if this kind of gamer is the typical Paradox strategy gamer. I agree it's an odd decision they made. I would have thought warfare could have been really enjoyable for Vicky 3. Especially since the map looks gorgeous.
I've played for under 2 hours. I'm not firing it up again until more reviews come in and then maybe I'll keep it, or refund it and then repurchase after DLC, but for now, I'm keeping an open mind.
Me too. The only reason I'm being critical is because I really want an excuse to get it. I mean, I want it to be a great successor, I want it to succeed. I want it to be supported and developed over time rather than abandoned like some of the less popular titles.
But I've got concerns based on what I'm seeing in user reviews and I'd like to see these negative points either refuted or confirmed by reliable sources. I understand that may take time.
I decided to take the plunge... Mostly because I am such a big Vicky I and II fan.
I am just at the 2 hour point. I am happy to keep the game. So far, it is what I expected and wanted.
Some very initial notes / impressions...
-I wasn't real happy about the price. There have been so many great strategy games in recent years that are down around the $29 - $39 range. But the game does have a polished feel to it...so I am not going to complain too much...but I reserve the right to complain about it...am a "grognard" after all.
-The game meets my definition of "deep." There are so many moving parts to understand. Two hours in, and I feel I have just scratched the surface.
-So far, all the detail, buttons and drill down info displays seem to be there for a purpose...not just chrome.
-From what I have seen of military and war (my experience is very limited), it is kind of like a super charged version of risk. Not a bad thing, unless you wanted more "wargamy" play.
So far, the game is what I wanted and expected. But I am also pretty easy on games in general. So far, the game is a nice ride. But I am still very early in my experience with it.
I WAS interested in buying it right away, but after watching some reviews on Youtube comparing 3 to 2, I've decided to sit on the fence for probably quite a long time to see how the game is further developed.
The problem with early reviews of highly-anticipated new releases are that they are a mixed bag of people with ruined expectations, technical issues, personal nitpicks, euphoria, disappointment, elation, anger, and then there are fanboys and haters. We need level-headed people with no preconceptions or expectations to report back.
EDIT: I'm going back in. I've decided that there isn't enough negativity surrounding the game to make me get a refund or prevent me from playing further.
I've played about 3 hours so far and there is a lot to learn. Took Sweden and have just concentrated on keeping the economy running and the people happy and that is task enough for now. Lot of wheels turning on the economy in your country and your trade with other countries.
Quote from: WallysWorld on October 26, 2022, 10:18:59 AM
I WAS interested in buying it right away, but after watching some reviews on Youtube comparing 3 to 2, I've decided to sit on the fence for probably quite a long time to see how the game is further developed.
Can you link the videos you mentioned? I did a quick search and only found one by an economist comparing the two, and it's from months before release.
Vicky wiki:
https://vic3.paradoxwikis.com/Victoria_3_Wiki (https://vic3.paradoxwikis.com/Victoria_3_Wiki)
I have to admit I'm still really tempted. I'd love to sink my teeth into a new economy and diplomacy focused grand strategy, even if the war aspect is ostensibly sub-par. And if there's one thing you can count on for Nu Paradox (aside from waves of DLC completely overhauling the game), it's that you'll have a good and easy time getting into the game relative to the amount of numbers and stuff to keep on top of.
I just reinstalled EUIV but I'm just not a real big fan of that time period in comparison to the 19th century.
^I'm still tempted too. lol :crazy2: :idiot2:
Quote from: al_infierno on October 26, 2022, 02:51:39 PM
Can you link the videos you mentioned? I did a quick search and only found one by an economist comparing the two, and it's from months before release.
I watched this review (opinion) in its entirety: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDZVMbCaeHI
I mean, I talk a big game but I had it in my cart for a time yesterday.
Staying strong.
Quote from: SirAndrewD on October 26, 2022, 04:48:39 PM
I mean, I talk a big game but I had it in my cart for a time yesterday.
Staying strong.
Watch the video WallysWorld posted. It will bring you back from the ledge.
Yeah, ouch... That review is damning. Sobered me right up!
This seems to be a continuing trend with Paradox. Strip down and assimilate all nations into one "player nation" blob with different outfits.
Also in that video, I lol'ed at "New York Utah front." WTF?
Hi everyone, it's been a while!
May I suggest you check out this review as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68dr_pPlAlw&t=242s I think it does a good job of staying level-headed, gives the game 7.5 out of 10 which is I think fair, and importantly, it reviews the game systems for what they are and does not approach it with the question: "is this exactly like Victoria 2?"
I think a lot of criticism is coming from this weird nostalgic picture of modded Victoria 2 that lives in people's heads. Missing things like not necessarily having to build factories on your own, forgetting that the "autonomous" factory building in Vic2 made little sense. Victoria 2 was great because there was literally no other attempt (apart from Victoria 1) to simulate the 19th century. But both as a game and as a simulation it was deeply flawed and broken. It was played despite the way it worked, not because of it.
And I think it is the "simulation" part where the key Victoria 3 advantage lies. Sure, the human and AI players select the factories they build, but thanks to the underlying fairly complex supply/demand system, the resulting economic environment feels FAR more realistic and engaging than Vic2's universal global market.
On the political front there is no contest I think. In my one game as Sweden/Scandinavia played to 1907, I had to engage with the political situation in my country more than ever in Vic2 - there are levers to pull, again, abstracted, but engaging ones.
Overall, in everything but war, I have more to do, more depth to consider than in Vic2.
Victoria 3 may handle more like a game than a simulation when compared to Victoria 2, but the result of those "more game-y" systems is a much more authentic simulation of 19th century economics and politics and how they interconnected.
War kind of fits into the same theme. This is the Paradox game with the least focus on war when it comes to manual user input. That has its drawbacks. Personally, I am glad to be rid of whack-a-stack gameplay from their other titles, but I understand if others feel differently.
However, the Vic3 war system is more in line with the overall simulation, not less, when compared to Vic2 or any other Paradox game. It has a profound effect on one's economy and population, and because it is not possible to overcome the AI by mouse-driven maneuvering, it fits much better into the game's scale - if I prepared for my war well, I will win it (barring misfortune). If I rushed into something ill-prepared I will get punished.
Now of course I am not saying the game is perfect, there are plenty of things to tweak (most especially the fairly common AI tendency to overcommit to what should be minor "win quick or get out" wars), but what's there now is fun, engaging, deep, and already miles ahead of what even modded Victoria 2 was for me, let alone vanilla.
Quote from: Tamas on October 26, 2022, 05:57:00 PM
I think a lot of criticism is coming from this weird nostalgic picture of modded Victoria 2 that lives in people's heads. Missing things like not necessarily having to build factories on your own, forgetting that the "autonomous" factory building in Vic2 made little sense. Victoria 2 was great because there was literally no other attempt (apart from Victoria 1) to simulate the 19th century. But both as a game and as a simulation it was deeply flawed and broken. It was played despite the way it worked, not because of it.
Thanks for sharing the video. I'll definitely check it out. In my mind, the issue is not with the execution of Vicky 3's systems but the philosophy behind them. What you described about Vicky 2 is precisely
why people love it. If it weren't for those unique and broken mechanics, it would just be another obscure back-catalogue Paradox game. I would 100x prefer the devs to focus on building a new system with that same philosophy, while making it more slick and polished and "modern," rather than throwing out the baby with the bathwater and stripping away the unique qualities to make it "Paradox game but in the 19th century."
They could have named this something else if they wanted to make a 19th century game with a completely different design philosophy than Victoria 2. I guess what really disappoints me is knowing now we'll never get a Victoria sequel with the same design philosophy as 2.
I'm also just a weirdo that prefers old, wonky games with fun and unique ideas over polished, mass-produced modern AAA games that are identical except thematic gimmicks and window-dressing. :crazy2:
I get that sentiment and I would agree with it fully if it was applicable to this game, but it is not.
Vic3 is not making any compromises on the attempted simulation front, quite the opposite. If you want to look into it in more detail or need to learn the game before playing, this a very long but excellent video: https://youtu.be/XWSoyOlVVfk
Thanks! I will check out both videos before I make up my mind O0
Who made those youtube videos and did they receive a free copy of the game?
I see that the game is basically fueling a big storm on Steam between those who like it and those who don't as it was when Imperator was released. I must admit I'll probably pull the trigger much sooner than I told myself before about waiting. Just an FYI the game is 16% off at Green Man Gaming, but of course with that store, no refunds once activated.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on October 26, 2022, 04:51:43 PM
Watch the video WallysWorld posted. It will bring you back from the ledge.
Yes...it did. Especially because I'm familiar with the channel and respect the reviewer, and I can see and understand every issue he's talking about as problem for someone like me that played Vic 1 and 2.
Quote from: WallysWorld on October 26, 2022, 04:24:33 PM
I watched this review (opinion) in its entirety: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDZVMbCaeHI
Just to play Devil's Advocate: From the start he makes it clear that it's a critique of the game measured against how Vicky 3 isn't Vicky 2. I want to know objectively how the game stands on it's own merits, not hear a litany of disappointment from a Vicky 2 fan who reports what they have dismembered from the previous game. I played Vicky 2 a few times. I can't remember it. Maybe for me, ignorance is bliss?
He says that capitalism has been completely removed from the game, yet, there are local and world markets in Vicky 3 in which you can invest, buy, sell, manipulate prices, trade and so on. I stopped watching at that point.
I'd like to be convinced that I've bought a stinker so I can have good gripe about it, but no one has put me off yet.
Quote from: Destraex on October 26, 2022, 08:20:53 PM
Who made those youtube videos and did they receive a free copy of the game?
Listen if you are not keen on trying the game that's fine, I just feel like people here might miss out on something they would enjoy because of what seem to me like overly emotional and negative reviews of people who wanted their ideal dream of Vic2 to materailse.
I am a bit concerned that if the most innovative and complex desigm by Paradox since, well, probably ever, gets tanked by the coalition of grumpy old people and meme-hungry young people, then we will not see such games again for quite a while.
But that aside, all I can tell you is that I was a very active beta tester on Victoria 1, a less active on Victoria 2 and played both games to death, and Victoria 3 is a more complex and comprehensive simulation than either of them. Yes, even the war system, because its valid to argue that not having little dudes to order around the map is less fun, but it certainly was in no way realistic.
Quote from: Tamas on October 27, 2022, 03:31:34 AM
Quote from: Destraex on October 26, 2022, 08:20:53 PM
Who made those youtube videos and did they receive a free copy of the game?
Listen if you are not keen on trying the game that's fine, I just feel like people here might miss out on something they would enjoy because of what seem to me like overly emotional and negative reviews of people who wanted their ideal dream of Vic2 to materailse.
I am a bit concerned that if the most innovative and complex desigm by Paradox since, well, probably ever, gets tanked by the coalition of grumpy old people and meme-hungry young people, then we will not see such games again for quite a while.
But that aside, all I can tell you is that I was a very active beta tester on Victoria 1, a less active on Victoria 2 and played both games to death, and Victoria 3 is a more complex and comprehensive simulation than either of them. Yes, even the war system, because its valid to argue that not having little dudes to order around the map is less fun, but it certainly was in no way realistic.
I just want people to be wary of what they watch being impartial is all (your videos probably were impartial, I did not click on them), but there are a lot that are paid to promote and generally referred to as a result as shills. Also wish links resolved here so I could see the preview here with the name as I don't click on everything and like a youtube summary. I am not trying to be difficult. But I do express my opinions rather bald faced. I know the reputation for the internet being toxic, I am not trying to be that guy that is negative for the sake of it, glass always half empty rather than full. I only have so much money to spend on games and must be frugal and judge things well.
If you like it for what it is. Cool. No issue here.
Quote from: Tamas on October 27, 2022, 03:31:34 AM
But that aside, all I can tell you is that I was a very active beta tester on Victoria 1, a less active on Victoria 2 and played both games to death, and Victoria 3 is a more complex and comprehensive simulation than either of them. Yes, even the war system, because its valid to argue that not having little dudes to order around the map is less fun, but it certainly was in no way realistic.
While your opinions are most certainly valid, informative and helpful, statements like this come across as disingenuous and extremely biased. You are literally the only person who has claimed the war system is "more complex and comprehensive". The only one. Virtually everybody else, even those who are giving the game favorable reviews, acknowledge that the war system is stripped and watered down to the point of being almost arbitrary in ways. I don't think it's fair to belittle criticism of a system in a strategy game that has no system of unit organization and control on a map, army or navy. To say that having such a system is "unrealistic" is illogical. From that perspective, just about every system in every game could be criticized as unrealistic in one way or another. Most importantly, is it fun? Realism or not? I think that this is the biggest problem that some people are having. The war system in Vicky 3 just doesn't seem enjoyable.
I'm glad you like it and are defending it and I want to continue to see your impressions. But don't get put off by people who have a different take, have concerns or criticisms. The most common ones definitely seem to have support and merit.
OK, the part about the war system was not clear: the simulation factor of it is better than in Vic2, in my opinion but of course in terms of complexity of options and player input Vic2 had more.
It's just that lessening (in this case removing) RTS-level control of the military pushes toward realism in the scope of these games, not away.
If one is looking for a wargame (even strategic) covering the 19th century, this game most certainly isn't it.
*sigh*
I got it. I settled a big case today and felt entitled to some new toys. I picked it up on CDKeys.com at a 36% discount. $30 even.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on October 27, 2022, 06:37:49 PM
*sigh*
I got it. I settled a big case today and felt entitled to some new toys. I picked it up on CDKeys.com at a 36% discount. $30 even.
Why the sigh? Has Paradox ever let you down?
On second thought, don't answer that...;)
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on October 27, 2022, 06:37:49 PM
*sigh*
I got it. I settled a big case today and felt entitled to some new toys. I picked it up on CDKeys.com at a 36% discount. $30 even.
Congrats! Looking forward to hearing what you think.
Well, one thing's for sure. The map is beautiful.
Just working my way through the tutorial. Pleasant thus far.
Ditto. I never got into Vicky I remember when the demo for Victoria II came about but that was it.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on October 27, 2022, 06:37:49 PM
*sigh*
I got it. I settled a big case today and felt entitled to some new toys. I picked it up on CDKeys.com at a 36% discount. $30 even.
You know what...... Maybe it's the Thursday night beers talking, but for $30 how can I say no?
I generally enjoy Nu Paradox games despite all my complaints. Except Hearts of Iron 4, since that's ostensibly a war game so having a crappy war system defeats the whole purpose. But aside from that, I can dig my teeth into stuff like Stellaris and CK3 despite my grogginess.
Honestly if it were $30 base price it would have been no question in my mind.
EDIT - My first thought is that I really have to commend Paradox for making this game and CK3 so tooltip/documentation oriented. As a tech writer myself, I really appreciate being able to hover over something and drill down to all these different terms and figure out what anything is on a whim. It's extremely slick and well done.
Now begins the Jar-Head Empire spanning multiple continents and oceans. All funded by cornering the market for pop-top beer cans. :bd:
Quote from: Sir Slash on October 27, 2022, 10:39:04 PM
Now begins the Jar-Head Empire spanning multiple continents and oceans. All funded by cornering the market for pop-top beer cans. :bd:
One thing I can say for sure is that this is not Drunk Me's definition of simple. I can't state if it's "deep" or not, but it's definitely complex in that there are a lot of systems working together. If you go around stabbing plus buttons like I did, you'll end up in debt and screwing yourself over. It's not quite as simplistic as some of the negative reviews make it out to be.
EDIT - I will say that I'm disappointed by Paradox's doubling-down on the lack of start dates. Part of my love for older Paradox games is being able to start at different points of time, but as far as I can tell you can only start at 1836 here. I'm sure there will be an ACW DLC down the line, but egh.... I'm not a fan of the path Paradox is taking.
DRUNK EDIT 2 - I love 19th century strategy / war games because I just wanna play as fuggin AMERICA! \m/ Yeah, yeah, you can play as America in EU4 but that's only for like the last 3 or 4 decades of game time.
DRUNK EDIT 3 - Before I go pass out and feel like absolute crap tomorrow, my final note is that this doesn't seem like the kind of game you can accurately assess with less than a dozen hours of serious play time. I like it enough so far that i don't regret spending $30 on it. But, it definitely lacks much of the character and uniqueness of Vicky 2.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on October 27, 2022, 08:52:36 PM
Well, one thing's for sure. The map is beautiful.
Control + F9 to remove/restore GIU and click hold mouse right button and move mouse to rotate the map.
Quote from: Ian C on October 28, 2022, 05:16:35 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on October 27, 2022, 08:52:36 PM
Well, one thing's for sure. The map is beautiful.
Control + F9 to remove/restore GIU and click hold mouse right button and move mouse to rotate the map.
God bless you, sir.
I'll hold off on buying it for six months (or six years), as I've mostly learned to do with Paradox titles. At first glance, the game seems to have pretty good bones but still needs some fleshing out. I'll be curious to see what they can do with the combat system to keep it high level, but perhaps make it more challenging and a slightly more important part of the game.
Al_infierno, in terms of deep games, I've picked up Shadow Empires again after a six month hiatus, although I've definitely enjoyed the 100+ hours I'd spent playing it previously. And once again, I find myself getting drilled seven ways but sideways for reasons I can't understand, even with the game set on "Regular" difficulty! ;D
I'm not sure if I'm being too choosy about trying to get the right characters into the right roles, or if I'm not paying enough attention to how my culture choices are affecting my political parties, or if I just need to be spending more money on something that I'm missing. But even before I get to the point in the game where I have to go back and figure out why I don't have enough logistics, I'm getting my ass kicked every time I play on a Medusa planet.
I finally shifted to an ice world and am having a little luck at least getting out of the starting gate. With any luck, I'll eventually reach the inevitable stage that I reach in every successful game of Shadow Empires: My Empire gets big enough that I have to go back and figure out what I need to fiddle to get my logistical network running efficiently without spending 5,000 steel and 2,000 industry points! :bd:
Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the Vicky 3 thread. As you gents were!
Vicky 3 definitely doesn't compete with Shadow Empire, nor with Vicky 2.
My sober thoughts: If this were the start of a new franchise, it would be 80%+ Steam reviews. The association with Vicky 2 drags it down 10-15%.
I have to say I'm liking it a lot so far (as a $30 game). On its own merits, it's a fun economic/political simulator that basically captures the spirit of the 19th century while still being a pretty streamlined experience. From what I understand, different nations don't really play all that differently aside from geographic location (similar to CK3).
It's fun for what it is, but the war system absolutely sucks and needs to be overhauled.
Thanks for all your thoughts on it so far. I'm confident that Paradox will address the issues mentioned (combat system?) in future patches. It sounds playable at the moment and it has a lot of positive aspects to it. Maybe not a day-one buy for me, but definitely keep an eye out for Christmas sales.
At the moment happy playing CK3, as my Paradox fix.
ps I think drunk-post reviews should be mandatory from now on.... ;D
Sober Edit: I don't have the baggage experience of past Victoria's, as I never played them. So would be a new experience for me. Would be a shame if the v1 and v2 fanboys' reviews stop new players from buying the game.
Quote from: fran on October 29, 2022, 10:29:41 AM
ps I think drunk-post reviews should be mandatory from now on.... ;D
They're not already?
Not mandatory but certainly appreciated.
More of a pastime, perhaps?
For some around here much more than a pastime.
Drunken posts are a specialty
Shpeshialty
^Heh ;D
Painful. This guy still absolutely hates it. I don't know him really, but he talks funny. :crazy2:
I don't know. He makes some good points but his actual gameplay while
he's talking is awful. Like he doesn't know what he's doing. Nobody would
queue 64 buildings.....I get that he's just demonstrating the game but geez.
On the other hand, his comment about a DLC heaven is probably sadly spot on.
The problem is DLCs will probably vastly improve the game. Even radically
change it (warfare system, I'm looking at you). So this could be a vastly different
game in a year or two.
Which is the problem. I miss games that came out complete. Here it is, we're
finished with it, have at it. And if it's modable, all the better. But Paradox's
philosophy......release a half baked game and make your customers pay indefinitely
if they want the most current and updated version, is not something to be admired.
I'm enjoying "3" and I'll probably buy all the damned DLCs but sheesh, I feel almost
taken advantage of. Now I'll get back to my Vic 2 save.
So what do you think of the game JH?
Quote from: gregb41352 on November 02, 2022, 03:20:12 PM
I don't know. He makes some good points but his actual gameplay while
he's talking is awful. Like he doesn't know what he's doing. Nobody would
queue 64 buildings.....
On the other hand, his comment about a DLC heaven is probably sadly spot on.
The problem is DLCs will probably vastly improve the game. Even radically
change it (warfare system, I'm looking at you). So this could be a vastly different
game in a year or two.
Which is the problem. I miss games that came out complete. Here it is, we're
finished with it, have at it. And if it's modable, all the better. But Paradox's
philosophy......release a half baked game and make your customers pay indefinitely
if they want the most current and updated version, is not something to be admired.
I'm enjoying "3" and I'll probably buy all the damned DLCs but sheesh, I feel almost
taken advantage of.
So what do you think of the game JH?
I haven't had the time yet to really formulate an opinion. I went away this past weekend and have been swamped at work. The new DCS patch and a couple of other new and shinnies have also gotten in the way. I've honestly enjoyed what I have seen though, and I think some of the stuff he is complaining about, although totally legitimate, is probably not stuff that will really bother me at the end of the day if the game is otherwise enjoyable. Sometimes having too much complexity, too many limitations on what the player can do or not do, etc. hurt the experience and make it less fun and approachable for me. Like ok, Vicky 2 still exists. It is still on my hard drive and I'll play it when I want. Vicky 3 is different. There is no question...but that doesn't mean it can't be good in its own right. That is the mentality I'm trying to approach it with.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on November 02, 2022, 12:47:12 PM
Painful. This guy still absolutely hates it. I don't know him really, but he talks funny. :crazy2:
I'll give Paradox credit, their games certainly create passion.
I seem to recall that Vicky1 players were very miffed at the changes in Vicky2...HOI2 players (myself included) thought HOI3 was unforgivable...and so it goes with Paradox.
In general, Vicky2 does have some advantages IMHO, but so does Vicky3.
I can't explain it, but Vicky3 has better immersion for me. I feel like those little virtual countries actually need me to guide them. Whereas Vicky2 seems a little cold.
But Vicky2 has a more efficient interface, better tutorial and a more logical market system...Vicky2 is 300% better on the military front...so what is one to do?
I don't mind the 'Paradox Way' as far as DLCs are concerned. I know I will be paying for Vicky3 DLCs until my 2 year old grand son gets to college. As long as those DLCs are adding good things, I am fine with that.
Develop a strong opinion, project it forcefully on everybody and everything, and when discussing the topic with other players, use those feelings as your strength. Embrace the power of the Dark Side!!
Quote from: FarAway Sooner on November 02, 2022, 05:43:53 PM
Develop a strong opinion, project it forcefully on everybody and everything, and when discussing the topic with other players, use those feelings as your strength. Embrace the power of the Dark Side!!
I know, I know, I keep forgetting... :bd:
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women!
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on November 02, 2022, 12:47:12 PM
Painful. This guy still absolutely hates it. I don't know him really, but he talks funny. :crazy2:
I watched it in its entirety and he made a lot of interesting points about the game. Thanks for posting.
Developers posted the post-release plans on areas of focus........
The first of these areas is military: The military system, being very different from the military systems of previous Grand Strategy Games, is one of those systems that has gone through a lot of iterations. While I believe that we have landed on a very solid core of how we want military gameplay in Victoria 3 to function and we have no intention of moving back towards a more tactical system, it is a system that suffers from some interface woes and which could do with selective deepening and increasing player control in specific areas. A few of the things we're looking into improving and expanding on for the military system follow here, in no particular order:
Addressing some of the rough edges in how generals function at the moment, such as improving unit selection for battles and balancing the overall progression along fronts
Adding the ability for countries to set strategic objectives for their generals
Increasing the visibility of navies and making admirals easier to work with
Improving the ability of players to get an overview of their military situation and exposing more data, like the underlying numbers behind battle sizes
Finding solutions for the issue where theaters can split into multiple (sometimes even dozens) of tiny fronts as pockets are created
Experimenting with controlled front-splitting for longer fronts
The second area is historical immersion: While we have always been upfront with the fact that Victoria 3 is a historical sandbox rather than a strictly historical game, we still want players to feel as though the events unfolding forms a plausible alt-history, and right now there are some expected historical outcomes that are either not happening often enough, or happening in such a way that they become immersion-breaking. Again, in no particular order, some areas targeted for improvement in the short term:
Ensuring the American Civil War has a decent chance to happen, happens in a way that makes sense (slave states rising up to defend slavery, etc), and isn't easily avoidable by the player.
Tweaking content such as the Meiji Restoration, Alaska purchase and so on in a way that they can more frequently be successfully performed by the AI, through a mix of AI improvements and content tweaks
Working to expose and improve content such as expeditions and journal entries that is currently too difficult for players to find or complete
Ensuring unifications such as Italy, Germany and Canada doesn't constantly happen decades ahead of the historical schedule, and increasing the challenge of unifying Italy and Germany in particular
General AI tweaks to have AI countries play in a more believable, immersive way
We're balancing cultural/religious tolerance laws by having more restrictive laws increase the loyalty of accepted pops, so there is an actual trade-off involved.
The third area is diplomacy. While I think what we do have here is quite good and not in need of any significant redesign, this is an area that could do with even more deepening and there's some options we want to add to diplomacy and diplomatic plays:
'Reverse-swaying', that is the ability to offer to join a side in a play in exchange for something
The ability to expand your primary demands in a diplomatic play beyond just one wargoal (though this has to be done in such a way that there's still a reason for countries to actually back down)
More things to offer in diplomatic plays, like giving away your own land
Trading (or at least giving away) states
Foreign investment and some form of construction in other countries, at least if they're part of your market
Improving and expanding on interactions with and from subjects, such as being able to grant and ask for more autonomy through a diplomatic action
While those are the major areas targeted for improvement, there are other things that fall outside the scope of either warfare, historical immersion and diplomacy where we've also heard your feedback and want to make improvements, a few examples being:
Making it easier to get an overview of your Pops and Pop factors such as Needs, Standard of Living and Radicals/Loyalists
Experimenting with autonomous private-sector construction and increasing the differences in gameplay between different economic systems (though as I've said many times, we are never going to take construction entirely out of the hands of the player)
Ironing out some of the kinks with the late-game economy and the AI's ability to develop key resources such as oil and rubber
Making it more interesting and 'competitive' but also more challenging to play in a more conservative and autocratic style
One of the first mechanics we're tweaking is Legitimacy, increasing its impact and making it so the share of votes in government matters far more, especially with more democratic laws.
The above is of course not even close to being an exhaustive list of everything we want to do, and I can't promise that everything on the list is going to make it into the first few patches, or that our priorities won't change as we continue to read and take in your feedback, only that as it stands these are our plans for the near future. I will also remind once again that everything mentioned above is something we want for our free post-release patches. At some point we will start talking about our plans for expansions, but that is definitely not anytime soon!
What I can promise you though, is that we're going to strive to keep you informed and do our best to give you insight into the post-release development process with dev diaries, videos and streams, just like we did before the game was released. I'll return nex
Having not played vicky 2 enough to really care back in the day, the youtubes of the new game kind of sold me on getting vicky 3. It could be really fun for someone like me that has no attachment to the old game. In fact, I agree with the design path of the new game.
Quote from: Skoop on November 04, 2022, 01:45:33 PM
Having not played vicky 2 enough to really care back in the day, the youtubes of the new game kind of sold me on getting vicky 3. It could be really fun for someone like me that has no attachment to the old game. In fact, I agree with the design path of the new game.
I am having fun with Vicky 3... Damn the torpedoes and all that...
I've put about 9 hours in according to Steam, and I have to say I think it's pretty good for what it is - a 19th century economic simulator that bears little resemblance to Vicky 2 in which the "flavor" of the game is pretty much uniform no matter what nation you play. Nothing really special about playing Russia instead of China except you have different regions and different window dressing for your little characters.
That said, the really, really big issue with the game is the AI seems to back down from conflict more than not. In my current Russia playthrough, I conquered a good chunk of central Asia including Persia and Afghanistan without a single fight, even though both nations had the support of surrounding neighbors. I understand that the little landlocked nations with no support give up easily, but freakin' Afghanistan? No way.
Anyway, if you want to play easy mode, play a nation like Russia or China which has an ungodly amount of manpower and make sure you just use it wisely.... you know, against the grain of the Russian/Chinese tradition. :cowboy: War itself is barebones as hell and basically just an RNG fest, so having a ton of weight to throw around makes things a bit easier. The front system is absolute doggy doodoo.
Seriously, someone do their best to explain WTF is going on here because this "front" GUI is incomprehensible to me:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FgxEJ7zUoAAfgYN?format=jpg&name=large)
I have no idea but that sure is a purty map.
Easy. You've got 174 hats that have been run through with swords vs 23 something-or-others backed up a whole lot of zeroes. Also there's a lake.
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on November 05, 2022, 11:52:06 AM
Also there's a lake.
:2funny: I can't tell you how relieved I am that the game thought to provide such a helpful tool-tip! O0
The more I play with the front system the more I absolutely despise it. It really is just glorified whack-a-mole, but with "fronts" instead of dudes on a map. I'm just constantly reshuffling generals around, and there's no way to actually assign division to a general. The enemies have 200 divisions stacked on one front and 2 on another? Too bad, you're forced to split your forces 50/50! It seems like the AI intentionally just keeps opening new fronts to screw around with the player. I also somehow ended up getting St Petersburg navally invaded and got NO warning (!!!!!)
Teleporting troops with absolutely no control over which divisions are assigned where? Yeah, real awesome immersive stuff!
In HOI4 the only time I used fronts was for amphibious invasions, since I'm pretty sure that's the only way you can do it. Otherwise I was moving divisions individually. It's a lousy system and I'm sorry to hear Vicky 3 has it. I'll pick this game up on Humble Bundle in five years for $16 with five DLCs like I did with HOI4.
Cheers,
CC
OK, this Reddit post made me laugh. :2funny:
https://old.reddit.com/r/victoria3/comments/z0f7ip/i_understand_imperialism_now/
Quote
Like most people, I always believed imperialism was an inherent evil. I understood why the powers of the time thought it was okay due to the times, but I believed it was abhorrent on moral grounds and was inefficient practically. Why spend resources subduing and exploiting a populace when you could uplift them and have them develop the resources themselves? Sure you lose out in the short term but long term the gains are much larger.
No more. I get it now. As my market dies from lack of raw materials, as my worthless, uncivilized 'allies' develop their industries, further cluttering an already backlogged industrial base, I understand. You don't fucking need those tool factories Ecuador, you don't need steel mills Indonesia. I don't care if your children are eating dirt 3 meals a day. Build God damned plantations and mines. Friendship is worthless, only direct control can bring prosperity. I will sacrifice the many for the good of the few. That's not a typo
My morality is dead. Hail empire. Thank you Victoria, thank you for freeing me.
Gave me a chuckle as well. Thanks.
^They should put that post on the Steam page as an endorsement :nerd:
'Victoria opened my eyes to what the world lost when imperialism died.'
Is anybody playing VIC III currently?
Quote from: fran on November 24, 2022, 12:44:00 PM
Is anybody playing VIC III currently?
Waiting for a couple of patches. Maybe a couple of DLCs.
Quote from: fran on November 24, 2022, 12:44:00 PM
Is anybody playing VIC III currently?
I still fire it up from time to time, but in its current state it feels rather empty and disappointing. Especially the god-awful war system. This one definitely needs some DLC before I'd consider it a solid game IMO.
Does it 'play itself?'
Quote from: Gusington on November 29, 2022, 07:58:34 PM
Does it 'play itself?'
Yeah, at a certain point it feels a bit like Cookie Clicker but you can choose your strategic goals. :crazy2:
I felt that way all the way back in EU1... :/
Update 1.1 "Early Grey":
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/victoria-3-update-1-1-earl-grey-is-now-live-checksum-0d2e-not-for-problem-reports.1560487/
Quote
Features
- Reworked Morale to inflict a base loss for every round of battle, modified by the difference in casualties inflicted between the sides as well as various other modifiers
- Reworked Legitimacy to provide bonuses and penalties to countries at different Legitimacy levels
- Added a new Legitimacy modifier based on Votes in Government
- Replaced Legitimacy Penalty from Government Size with a Legitimacy Penalty from Ideological incoherence
- Treaty Ports will no longer function if the owner's Power Rank isn't greater than the market owner's, ensuring Great Powers cannot use them to get access to the markets of other Great Powers
Quote from: al_infierno on November 05, 2022, 01:06:54 PM
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on November 05, 2022, 11:52:06 AM
Also there's a lake.
:2funny: I can't tell you how relieved I am that the game thought to provide such a helpful tool-tip! O0
The more I play with the front system the more I absolutely despise it. It really is just glorified whack-a-mole, but with "fronts" instead of dudes on a map. I'm just constantly reshuffling generals around, and there's no way to actually assign division to a general. The enemies have 200 divisions stacked on one front and 2 on another? Too bad, you're forced to split your forces 50/50! It seems like the AI intentionally just keeps opening new fronts to screw around with the player. I also somehow ended up getting St Petersburg navally invaded and got NO warning (!!!!!)
Teleporting troops with absolutely no control over which divisions are assigned where? Yeah, real awesome immersive stuff!
I don't buy brand new Paradox games anymore and you just reaffirmed this for me. This new front system sounds terrible. I hate whack a mole games.
Anybody playing this at the moment?
Not bought it but would like to know your thought a few months in
Thanks
Could not bring myself to buy this in spite of this being my favorite time period, next to ancients. Just too many dodgy sounding mechanics, not to mention a general displeasure with Paradox's releases the last couple of years.
Just give it time and about 15-20 DLC releases and it'll be fine. :tophat:
Quote from: solops on April 15, 2023, 09:37:27 AMCould not bring myself to buy this in spite of this being my favorite time period, next to ancients. Just too many dodgy sounding mechanics, not to mention a general displeasure with Paradox's releases the last couple of years.
I understand completely the above sentiments. From someone who loved EU3 and the early years of EU4 I have seen a company that at least gave the impression of being run by wargame enthusiasts to one who now seem in thrall to the marketing dept.
Victoria III (along with the absolute shambles that was Empire of Sin that was published to great fanfare by Paradox and then abandoned) is the latest manifestation of a severe downward trajectory in quality in the interests of dlc bloat.
I have consigned Paradox to "the dustbin of history) in sadness more than anger but it is a cautionary tale for other developers.
Quote from: devoncop on April 15, 2023, 03:31:10 PMQuote from: solops on April 15, 2023, 09:37:27 AMCould not bring myself to buy this in spite of this being my favorite time period, next to ancients. Just too many dodgy sounding mechanics, not to mention a general displeasure with Paradox's releases the last couple of years.
I understand completely the above sentiments. From someone who loved EU3 and the early years of EU4 I have seen a company that at least gave the impression of being run by wargame enthusiasts to one who now seem in thrall to the marketing dept.
Victoria III (along with the absolute shambles that was Empire of Sin that was published to great fanfare by Paradox and then abandoned) is the latest manifestation of a severe downward trajectory in quality in the interests of dlc bloat.
I have consigned Paradox to "the dustbin of history) in sadness more than anger but it is a cautionary tale for other developers.
I know what you're talking about but take care re the baby/bathwater situation. CK3 is as good a game as I have ever played.
Empire of Sin never got the development/post release care it deserved?
Yeah, I agree with the general sentiment on Paradox's current business model.
There's no way I will ever buy one of their base games at release price, ever again. At this point it's hard to argue that they're not just releasing bare bones engines as Day 1 releases, barely fully games. There's a touch of hyperbole in what I say but only a touch.
I mean, maybe if they released a fully haptic Margo Robbie adventure game in VR I'd get it.
That's about it.
Or Hearts of Iron V. (Kidding)
Quote from: glen55 on April 15, 2023, 04:04:13 PMQuote from: devoncop on April 15, 2023, 03:31:10 PMQuote from: solops on April 15, 2023, 09:37:27 AMCould not bring myself to buy this in spite of this being my favorite time period, next to ancients. Just too many dodgy sounding mechanics, not to mention a general displeasure with Paradox's releases the last couple of years.
I understand completely the above sentiments. From someone who loved EU3 and the early years of EU4 I have seen a company that at least gave the impression of being run by wargame enthusiasts to one who now seem in thrall to the marketing dept.
Victoria III (along with the absolute shambles that was Empire of Sin that was published to great fanfare by Paradox and then abandoned) is the latest manifestation of a severe downward trajectory in quality in the interests of dlc bloat.
I have consigned Paradox to "the dustbin of history) in sadness more than anger but it is a cautionary tale for other developers.
I know what you're talking about but take care re the baby/bathwater situation. CK3 is as good a game as I have ever played.
I take your point re CK3 Glen. I do own the bare bones base game but once again it is really a skeleton upon which (large amounts of) dlc are designed to add flesh.
It is not a sales concept I can warm to.
If I compare it to the Pathfinder games, for all of their quirks they are huge fully fleshed out games on release.
Quote from: glen55 on April 15, 2023, 04:04:13 PMQuote from: devoncop on April 15, 2023, 03:31:10 PMQuote from: solops on April 15, 2023, 09:37:27 AMCould not bring myself to buy this in spite of this being my favorite time period, next to ancients. Just too many dodgy sounding mechanics, not to mention a general displeasure with Paradox's releases the last couple of years.
I understand completely the above sentiments. From someone who loved EU3 and the early years of EU4 I have seen a company that at least gave the impression of being run by wargame enthusiasts to one who now seem in thrall to the marketing dept.
Victoria III (along with the absolute shambles that was Empire of Sin that was published to great fanfare by Paradox and then abandoned) is the latest manifestation of a severe downward trajectory in quality in the interests of dlc bloat.
I have consigned Paradox to "the dustbin of history) in sadness more than anger but it is a cautionary tale for other developers.
I know what you're talking about but take care re the baby/bathwater situation. CK3 is as good a game as I have ever played.
I agree CK3 does not disappoint, and was playable from day one
Quote from: Gusington on April 15, 2023, 04:53:36 PMEmpire of Sin never got the development/post release care it deserved?
Empire of Sin promised so much. Did not buy it, and unfortunately that it was a flop
^Yeah that game really did look to promise so much, sad to see it languish and die.
Although I understand people don't like the dlc model, but really? The base games not worth the cost? I think they contain plenty to make it playable and worth a purchase. What other games offer more and same type?
I never felt empires of sin was ever going to work or be successful for Paradox. I think a better example is Imperitor Rome as a game that failed but shouldn't. And as such only received 1 dlc before it was abandoned.
I'll never buy one of their games full price again but I still get enjoyment out of them and will play occasionally