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Digital Gaming => Computer Gaming => Topic started by: acctingman on June 02, 2021, 03:48:40 PM

Title: A quick recommendation please
Post by: acctingman on June 02, 2021, 03:48:40 PM
Hey folks

Just a quick simple recommendation from you more experienced gamers. At some point I want to buy WitE2 and WitW2(when ever that might be) but both games are WAY over my head.

I was thinking of getting into a series of games that would help transition myself to tackle these larger more complex games.

Of these three, which would you recommend I get into first?

Unity of Command 2, Decisive Campaign series or Strategic Command WW2:Europe?

Thanks for your time.
Title: Re: A quick recommendation please
Post by: CptHowdy on June 02, 2021, 04:33:27 PM
I would just buy witw2 and wite2 and play the smaller scenarios. Why learn different ui's and rules. Would be confusing for me at least.
Title: Re: A quick recommendation please
Post by: Tripoli on June 02, 2021, 04:45:28 PM
The highly experienced players like myself (49 years in the hobby) tend to buy games and never play them at all. Then you don't have to worry about being overwhelmed by the rules :D  Seriously, if you are new to gaming, you might try something like War Plan or Campaign Barbarossa
Title: Re: A quick recommendation please
Post by: nelmsm on June 02, 2021, 04:54:37 PM
I would just buy witw2 and wite2 and play the smaller scenarios. Why learn different ui's and rules. Would be confusing for me at least.

Just go ahead and get WitE2 now and start with the smaller scenarios and work your way up.  Watch the tutorials from Strategy Gaming Dojo and you'll do fine.  None of the other games really have a system that is close so you had just as well start out with it.  You can put as much into it or as little into it as you want.  You can automate the air war and depot management which to me are the two hardest things to learn.  Play with those automated until you are comfortable with the ground war and then add on as you go.
Title: Re: A quick recommendation please
Post by: Geezer on June 02, 2021, 04:59:11 PM
Agree with nelmsm that Strategy Dojo has two excellent series on Youtube.  One is a tutorial and the other is a Let's Play.   They will help you get into WitE2 so if that's the game you want then go for it.
Title: Re: A quick recommendation please
Post by: acctingman on June 03, 2021, 12:45:00 AM
I know they're different scale games but would the John tiller campaign series be a little easier to digest?
Title: Re: A quick recommendation please
Post by: Destraex on June 03, 2021, 03:29:54 AM
acctingman you have been on this forum a very long time and I assume you play a fair few games. Having said this I imagine it is just this genre that is seemingly "opaque" to you. If I am right I know what you mean. Because grand strategies are turn based, I baulk at spending the time to familiarise myself with the common concepts for playing them. The modus operandum that applies to grand strategy games. I don't like what is usually very shallow underlying mechanics for deciding what happens "by the numbers". It would be different for a WEGO grand strategy. I'd probably be all over that even with the X + Y + officer training + other modifiers + dice for chance = result approach.

Having said all of this. If I was going to try to choose a game for you that showed you the genre's "modus operandum" and general way of doing things without being born of an opaque interface which made things hard to learn. I would have no idea what to choose. I simply cannot think of any simple grand strategy games that show you how the more complex ones do things.
Title: Re: A quick recommendation please
Post by: acctingman on June 03, 2021, 07:26:34 AM
acctingman you have been on this forum a very long time and I assume you play a fair few games. Having said this I imagine it is just this genre that is seemingly "opaque" to you. If I am right I know what you mean. Because grand strategies are turn based, I baulk at spending the time to familiarise myself with the common concepts for playing them. The modus operandum that applies to grand strategy games. I don't like what is usually very shallow underlying mechanics for deciding what happens "by the numbers". It would be different for a WEGO grand strategy. I'd probably be all over that even with the X + Y + officer training + other modifiers + dice for chance = result approach.

Having said all of this. If I was going to try to choose a game for you that showed you the genre's "modus operandum" and general way of doing things without being born of an opaque interface which made things hard to learn. I would have no idea what to choose. I simply cannot think of any simple grand strategy games that show you how the more complex ones do things.

I need my morning caffeine to read this :D What I think you're saying is just buy the damn game and jump in?  :-\
Title: Re: A quick recommendation please
Post by: Jarhead0331 on June 03, 2021, 07:34:38 AM
acctingman you have been on this forum a very long time and I assume you play a fair few games. Having said this I imagine it is just this genre that is seemingly "opaque" to you. If I am right I know what you mean. Because grand strategies are turn based, I baulk at spending the time to familiarise myself with the common concepts for playing them. The modus operandum that applies to grand strategy games. I don't like what is usually very shallow underlying mechanics for deciding what happens "by the numbers". It would be different for a WEGO grand strategy. I'd probably be all over that even with the X + Y + officer training + other modifiers + dice for chance = result approach.

Having said all of this. If I was going to try to choose a game for you that showed you the genre's "modus operandum" and general way of doing things without being born of an opaque interface which made things hard to learn. I would have no idea what to choose. I simply cannot think of any simple grand strategy games that show you how the more complex ones do things.

I need my morning caffeine to read this :D What I think you're saying is just buy the damn game and jump in?  :-\

I think what he is saying, and which I agree, is that no other game is going to "prepare" you for a transition to a deeper game that is based off of an entirely different system.

What is it exactly that you struggle with? Is the mechanical aspects of a complex game (i.e. its rules, user interface, data management systems and interpretation of this data, etc.) or is it the more substantive strategic nuance of managing operational sized units across many fields of arms (i.e. land, sea and air)?  If it is the former, I think you're SOL and if you want to play games like WitE and WitW, you just need to bite the bullet and jump in. If its the latter, then perhaps you can gain some valuable insight by playing set piece portions of larger battles and commanding various size units that you can increase over time as you get more comfortable with the nuance of ever higher command.  In addition, historical study of OOBs, TOEs, and general staff decision-making as it happened during the war can be very helpful too. First try to recreate events as they transpired and then as you get more comfortable, try different things or experiment with different theories.

Remember...its only a game. If you lose, nobody dies and you can start over. Have fun!
Title: Re: A quick recommendation please
Post by: acctingman on June 03, 2021, 08:07:48 AM
acctingman you have been on this forum a very long time and I assume you play a fair few games. Having said this I imagine it is just this genre that is seemingly "opaque" to you. If I am right I know what you mean. Because grand strategies are turn based, I baulk at spending the time to familiarise myself with the common concepts for playing them. The modus operandum that applies to grand strategy games. I don't like what is usually very shallow underlying mechanics for deciding what happens "by the numbers". It would be different for a WEGO grand strategy. I'd probably be all over that even with the X + Y + officer training + other modifiers + dice for chance = result approach.

Having said all of this. If I was going to try to choose a game for you that showed you the genre's "modus operandum" and general way of doing things without being born of an opaque interface which made things hard to learn. I would have no idea what to choose. I simply cannot think of any simple grand strategy games that show you how the more complex ones do things.

I need my morning caffeine to read this :D What I think you're saying is just buy the damn game and jump in?  :-\

I think what he is saying, and which I agree, is that no other game is going to "prepare" you for a transition to a deeper game that is based off of an entirely different system.

What is it exactly that you struggle with? Is the mechanical aspects of a complex game (i.e. its rules, user interface, data management systems and interpretation of this data, etc.) or is it the more substantive strategic nuance of managing operational sized units across many fields of arms (i.e. land, sea and air)?  If it is the former, I think you're SOL and if you want to play games like WitE and WitW, you just need to bite the bullet and jump in. If its the latter, then perhaps you can gain some valuable insight by playing set piece portions of larger battles and commanding various size units that you can increase over time as you get more comfortable with the nuance of ever higher command.  In addition, historical study of OOBs, TOEs, and general staff decision-making as it happened during the war can be very helpful too. First try to recreate events as they transpired and then as you get more comfortable, try different things or experiment with different theories.

Remember...its only a game. If you lose, nobody dies and you can start over. Have fun!

Honestly, purchase anxiety!  :idiot2:

I've bought so many games over the years (not just wargames) that have been disappointing, but I really crave something with some depth. I did try HoT4 and I just couldn't get into that, hence my trepidation over WitE/W. I've tried the RTS games and even with slowing them down they just don't scratch that itch. I've realized I'm a turn based guy. The Panzer Corps and Battle Academy's of the world are just kind of boring these days. They have their place for sure, but I've done most of them.

Time to take the plunge and mentally prepare myself to take things slow and know I'm going to get my ass handed to me...a lot.

Thanks for the sage advice all.
Title: Re: A quick recommendation please
Post by: Gusington on June 03, 2021, 08:10:08 AM
^I feel that way occasionally too and then I remember, as JH said, no one died, and the only answering I have to do is to The Wife and The Wallet.

'You're gonna be ok, say the Goddamned words...'
Title: Re: A quick recommendation please
Post by: solops on June 03, 2021, 08:14:18 AM
I am saving my money for WitE3.
Title: Re: A quick recommendation please
Post by: acctingman on June 03, 2021, 08:16:20 AM
^I feel that way occasionally too and then I remember, as JH said, no one died, and the only answering I have to do is to The Wife and The Wallet.

'You're gonna be ok, say the Goddamned words...'

Oh shit....the wife! :o
Title: Re: A quick recommendation please
Post by: acctingman on June 03, 2021, 08:17:40 AM
I am saving my money for WitE3.

Solops..not a fan of WitE2? I feel I'll be dead by the time 3 comes out. I prefer the Western theater over the Eastern theater, so I might go that route.
Title: Re: A quick recommendation please
Post by: Gusington on June 03, 2021, 08:30:25 AM
^So much for 'nobody died.'
Title: Re: A quick recommendation please
Post by: Father Ted on June 03, 2021, 11:53:20 AM
Remember...its only a game. If you lose, nobody dies and you can start over. Have fun!

My twopennorth would be to reiterate JH's comment above and also to suggest that you try to include the learning process in the fun.  Both WitW and WitE are often on steep discounts, so giving them a go doesn't have to be too painful wallet-wise.
Title: Re: A quick recommendation please
Post by: Phantom on June 03, 2021, 12:22:22 PM
I tend to disagree here. Jumping into a complex game (especially WitE, which I'd define as a spreadsheet type game) may well put you off for life. Until you have all the mechanics of the game tied down it could be a real chore and you'll find yourself reading the manual more than playing the game just to find out what the hell happened & why you lost all those men.
Personally I'd go for Decisive Campaigns - probably Warsaw to Paris, which IMO you can play with limited knowledge of the internal engine as, if you do something logical militarily, it will normally pan out well in the game. Also 90% of the info is up front on the counters, so following even a multi hex combat is fairly simple. Its just more of a fun gaming experience, and if you enjoy & master it AND feel the desire for another level of detail, then by all means try something harder (though if you're keen on the engine the next step may be DC Barbarossa - which has a fantastic strategic/political overlayer).
That said, with regard to transitioning to WitE, on my gaming path I discovered more complex doesn't mean better, and since then I've gone for better designed games that give similar outcomes for less rules overhead & less micromanagement.
That's me however - different strokes & all that!
Regards
Title: Re: A quick recommendation please
Post by: acctingman on June 03, 2021, 12:51:25 PM
I tend to disagree here. Jumping into a complex game (especially WitE, which I'd define as a spreadsheet type game) may well put you off for life. Until you have all the mechanics of the game tied down it could be a real chore and you'll find yourself reading the manual more than playing the game just to find out what the hell happened & why you lost all those men.
Personally I'd go for Decisive Campaigns - probably Warsaw to Paris, which IMO you can play with limited knowledge of the internal engine as, if you do something logical militarily, it will normally pan out well in the game. Also 90% of the info is up front on the counters, so following even a multi hex combat is fairly simple. Its just more of a fun gaming experience, and if you enjoy & master it AND feel the desire for another level of detail, then by all means try something harder (though if you're keen on the engine the next step may be DC Barbarossa - which has a fantastic strategic/political overlayer).
That said, with regard to transitioning to WitE, on my gaming path I discovered more complex doesn't mean better, and since then I've gone for better designed games that give similar outcomes for less rules overhead & less micromanagement.
That's me however - different strokes & all that!
Regards

Phantom...I'd be interested to know which games you prefer over the WitE/W series. Thank you for your comments.

In fact, thank you all for the comments/suggestions. I might just go the route of the DC game then WitE/W. I've read so many good things about the DC games and while I get that each game is different it wouldn't hurt me to chew on a nice t-bone before I try and eat a filet mignon!
Title: Re: A quick recommendation please
Post by: Phantom on June 04, 2021, 12:26:44 PM
I tend to disagree here. Jumping into a complex game (especially WitE, which I'd define as a spreadsheet type game) may well put you off for life. Until you have all the mechanics of the game tied down it could be a real chore and you'll find yourself reading the manual more than playing the game just to find out what the hell happened & why you lost all those men.
Personally I'd go for Decisive Campaigns - probably Warsaw to Paris, which IMO you can play with limited knowledge of the internal engine as, if you do something logical militarily, it will normally pan out well in the game. Also 90% of the info is up front on the counters, so following even a multi hex combat is fairly simple. Its just more of a fun gaming experience, and if you enjoy & master it AND feel the desire for another level of detail, then by all means try something harder (though if you're keen on the engine the next step may be DC Barbarossa - which has a fantastic strategic/political overlayer).
That said, with regard to transitioning to WitE, on my gaming path I discovered more complex doesn't mean better, and since then I've gone for better designed games that give similar outcomes for less rules overhead & less micromanagement.
That's me however - different strokes & all that!
Regards

Phantom...I'd be interested to know which games you prefer over the WitE/W series. Thank you for your comments.

In fact, thank you all for the comments/suggestions. I might just go the route of the DC game then WitE/W. I've read so many good things about the DC games and while I get that each game is different it wouldn't hurt me to chew on a nice t-bone before I try and eat a filet mignon!

I started playing computer wargames years ago, and one of my first (possibly THE first) was Gary Grigsby's 2nd Front, I think I was playing it on the Commodore Amiga then - shows how old it (& I!) am. This was the forerunner of War in Russia then WiTE IIRC. I played 2nd Front for hours & hours at a time, at the time it was easily the best "grognard" game out there. Since then its been improved/expanded/enhanced, but its roots are still visible. Here's where me & the game diverged - as it evolved it became far more complex and whilst I suspect I could still play & enjoy it, it would take a large investment in time, and whilst I suspect its very accurate, its a little dry for my taste now.
So in a nutshell, I tend to enjoy simpler games (though not too simple) with more flavour & colour. TOAW is about my grognard limit these days. My favourite WW2 games are the DC series - Warsaw to Paris for straight combat, Barbarossa for a clever nuanced game with a political element, which, when dealing with the war in the east is a crucial (arguably THE crucial) element. I've not played WiTE so maybe I'm doing it a disservice, but I don't think it includes this. DC also includes a lot of colour - bio's on commanders which ties into their usefulness, plus card play - a great innovation in board games, and IMO a great one in PC games too.
I also like the Command Ops games as you can delegate a lot of micromanagement to your sub-commanders, though I appreciate watching the game play out and the very sketchy intelligence isn't to everyone's tastes, but IMO it does realistically represent that upper command perspective. At the tactical level I play Combat Mission & Tigers on the Hunt, again for a good balance of realism & playability.
Hope that helps and that you enjoy whatever you settle on.
Regards
Title: Re: A quick recommendation please
Post by: ArizonaTank on June 04, 2021, 11:55:00 PM
You might also look at Matrix's The Operational Art of War IV (TOAW IV for short).  You can play without diving too deeply into the rules, but there is plenty of detail when you are ready for it.

What is nice about the game is that there are many, many, many scenarios (over 200) of very diverse size and length. There is also a very robust scenario editor if you get ambitious.   

TOAW IV is an older game however, so you might want to wait for a sale if you decide to pick it up.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/792660/The_Operational_Art_of_War_IV/ (https://store.steampowered.com/app/792660/The_Operational_Art_of_War_IV/)

Also +1 on the Decisive Campaigns series...also by Matrix/Slitherine.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/337760/Decisive_Campaigns_The_Blitzkrieg_from_Warsaw_to_Paris/ (https://store.steampowered.com/app/337760/Decisive_Campaigns_The_Blitzkrieg_from_Warsaw_to_Paris/)

https://store.steampowered.com/app/354600/Decisive_Campaigns_Case_Blue/ (https://store.steampowered.com/app/354600/Decisive_Campaigns_Case_Blue/)

https://store.steampowered.com/app/454530/Decisive_Campaigns_Barbarossa/ (https://store.steampowered.com/app/454530/Decisive_Campaigns_Barbarossa/)