Author Topic: Giving Gaddafi His Due - CS: Middle East - Crisis in Sirte'85 (Libya Hypoth.)  (Read 11624 times)

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Offline Crossroads

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Re: CS: Middle East - Crisis in Sirte, a Libya 1985 what-if
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2017, 10:50:43 AM »
The Cunning Plan. Blackadder would've been proud

First, the Milan team duly plans their move. With Save AP for Firing and Reachable Hexes both toggled ON, they confirm they can move forward and fire. Milan team: one T-72 at 1500 meters, go at'em! "Firing position reached, firing... Deflection!" A Disrupt, but no kill. Not good.

: Step One • show


And it gets worse. Scimitars now report the intel's been wrong. To fire at the BMP-1 platoon, they can fully expect Op Fire not only from the disrupted T-72, but from a full strength T-72 platoon as well. Scimitars: Break Off! Break Off!

: Step Two • show


But I want that Strength 3 T-72 off the books this turn. So while I planned to have Lynx One save their remaining two ATGM loads for later, I order them to wipe out the BMP-1s instead.

With Lynx One, there's no surprises, the professionals they are. "Target locked. Firing... Target destroyed!" And back to reverse slope they go.

: Step Three • show


Next, Enter the Chieftain! Finally first blood with those mighty battle tanks! Now, if you paid attention, and I surely did not, in my Cunning Plan post I marked the hex where'd they engage the T-72s from. The only problem? The bloody hex is not visible from there! So having moved to the firing position, they report no LOS to the target, and in general are quite :tickedoff: about this.

Not prepared to let the Libyans get away this easy, I order them to move about a bit to find a proper firing position. As they do that, they are Op Fired by the very same T-72 platoon they are after, and roll a Retreat on the battle result.

Interim report on Cunning Plan: Lynx One down to one last ATGM load, Scimitars still in harms way, and Chieftains stuck in the open ground, in front of the elements of the Libyan Tank Battalion, and no Action Points remaining to go anywhere.

: Step Four • show


Man, they are so toast now. I might start writing letters home already  :-\

« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 11:57:10 AM by Crossroads »
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CS: Middle East 1948-1985 2.0

CS: Middle East AAR: High Water Mark (Syria 10/12/73) Me vs Berto | Riptide (Libya 8/6/85) Me vs Berto | The Crossroads (West Bank 6/5/67)  Me vs Berto

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Offline Crossroads

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Re: CS: Middle East - Crisis in Sirte, a Libya 1985 what-if
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2017, 11:03:53 AM »
Cunning Plan, cont'd

Trying to give the Chieftain Troop even a small fighting chance, I order my Milan team at "Cumbria" to step forward and destroy the other BMP-1 platoon, just one hex outside they LOS. They duly obey, and report the BMP-1s are not visible from there, as they're on a reverse slope. The Milan team is quite  :tickedoff: as well, for they are now left in the open. At least they've got the Action Points to Op Fire if something comes close enough to them.

: Step five • show


Sheesh. Never enforce a lost cause, time to call it a day...

The FV432s of the Outpost "Cumbria" forward platoon are ordered to make a hasty retreat to safety. "Cumbria", you're on your own now!

: step six • show


And that's how the Cunning Plan played out... Having ordered my Javelin team to retreat behing another reverse slope, my troops are all neatly tucked to withold the Libyan push on this sector. All but the Chieftain Troop.

: step seven • show


The Chieftain Troops position looks so suspect, maybe Berto expects a trap, and calls a general retreat here?  :crazy2:

And that's it for today, other sectors to be played and reported tomorrow! Here's hoping they will go better!
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 11:59:50 AM by Crossroads »
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CS: Middle East AAR: High Water Mark (Syria 10/12/73) Me vs Berto | Riptide (Libya 8/6/85) Me vs Berto | The Crossroads (West Bank 6/5/67)  Me vs Berto

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Offline Crossroads

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Re: CS: Middle East - Crisis in Sirte, a Libya 1985 what-if
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2017, 11:11:45 AM »
Saving their hinies

Picking up where I left, I reluctantly order Lynx Two to use one of their remaining two ATGM loads to assist the stranded Chieftain troop. Anything to better the odds of even one of those MBTs surviving to fight another day.

Professionals they are, they close in...

: Lynx Two Mission 3/(4) • show


... and return from their mission with two more T-72s knocked out. One got away, hopefully Disrupted, so less likely to cause grief come next turn.

: Lynx two mission complete • show


In addition, I've got the Mortar APC with eyes on the ground, can't recall if I can fire a smoke mission as Direct Fire, that would be great. Alas, I can't, smoke is always an indirect mission with smoke available from next turn.

Too bad.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 09:38:23 AM by Crossroads »
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Offline Crossroads

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Re: CS: Middle East - Crisis in Sirte, a Libya 1985 what-if
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2017, 09:43:37 AM »
First Blood for the Chieftains

Word of the stranded Chieftain troop got around quickly, everyone's quite moody about that, so I order the 2d Troop to knock of the Libyan AC on a recce mission. That they do. No one's feeling any better really, but everyone agrees it's fun to blow things up.

: Strike one to Chieftains • show


And that's it. Things are certain to really heat up soon. I move any soft targets to rear area, and check the situation with my recces.

Oh, the western flank. I move the lone Scimitar section a few hundred meters forward, only to have the other track go up in smoke. Looks like a Sagger armed BRDM-2. The surviving Scimitar track quickly retreats behind the reverse slope.

: trouble in the west flank • show



What a proper finishing act for the turn that was not quite what it was meant to be.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 12:02:04 PM by Crossroads »
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Offline Crossroads

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Re: CS: Middle East - Crisis in Sirte, a Libya 1985 what-if
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2017, 09:51:53 AM »
EOP British Turn 6

Finally, checking everyone's outside Libyans LOS, time to finish the turn. Gained new ground with VPs, but could have dealt quite a crushing blow but did not.

The noise about the imminent loss of one Chieftain troop of three tanks seems maybe an exaggeration, but the Brits are really walking a thin line here. I mean, there's only 13 of them to begin with.

But, there's lot to be happy about too. Had the Libyans taken more time to learn about my troop positions, and used their Hind section to the same effect I've used my two Lynx sections, the overall situation might be perhaps quite a different one. And their Gunships don't run out of ammo, they can always retreat to Ghardabiya Air Base for reloads...

: EOP Brit turn 6 • show


So at the end of the turn: we are here because we're here. Turn over to Berto!

He should still not have many targets besides my stranded Chieftain troop, so perseverance is the order for their day. Once I've ran out of reverse slopes to hide, once they close in, well, we'll see how it will go.



I will miss my Chieftains though :'( Button up guys, button up! Incoming!
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 12:06:06 PM by Crossroads »
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CS: Middle East AAR: High Water Mark (Syria 10/12/73) Me vs Berto | Riptide (Libya 8/6/85) Me vs Berto | The Crossroads (West Bank 6/5/67)  Me vs Berto

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Offline mirth

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Re: CS: Middle East - Crisis in Sirte, a Libya 1985 what-if
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2017, 10:07:19 AM »
Good stuff, Crossroads.
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Offline Crossroads

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Re: CS: Middle East - Crisis in Sirte, a Libya 1985 what-if
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2017, 04:16:01 AM »
Good stuff, Crossroads.

Thanks  :)  The fun here is pretty much the non existent margin for error. The Brits continue to rule the battle field to the point they don't, just need to prolong that time as far towards the end of the scenario as possible.
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Offline Crossroads

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Re: CS: Middle East - Crisis in Sirte, a Libya 1985 what-if
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2017, 04:24:00 AM »
Turn 7 Opening Sitrep

Talking about margins of error, let us see then what happened. I fully expected to see this: a Chieftain graveyard



Amazingly that is not how it turned out. Hostiles left right and center, but in the middle, standing their ground: the stranded Chieftain troop  :o

I believe it was fired by two T-72 platoons and by a Sagger armed BMP-1, at 1 000 meter distance, they had the luck of the Irish. No kills, no disruptions, not even a retreat.  :hide:

This will be know as The Miracle of Cumbria. Too much of good luck? We're playing with betas, I need to check what happened. More of that later.

Meanwhile, unexpectedly, a full blown attack from the East. See my Scimitars hiding there, with Op Fire set to None. They observed the formation go by, but amazingly were not bumped into.

We'll have a full blown tank duel this turn, I'll have my Tank Coy heading to meet them, especially as I believe I noticed the Libyan Hind section (white circle with a "?" on it) leave the area to support the push in the middle?

What else? Oh yes, the Redeye MPAD team at Outpost "Devonshire" had the Libyan Mi-2 recce section (white circle with a Helo chit on it) at their sights, but did not score a hit. Libyans took off, fast, though, so mission accomplished. Trying to keep them blind as much as I can. Visibility is up to 9 (2 250 meters), so less chances to hide though.

: Opening Sitrep Turn 7 • show


Middle sector will need to hold, I'll leave them to close in, I have the Milan teams and the surviving Chieftain troop to snipe at them. I'll have Lynx One and Lynx Two pull back, saving their final ATGM loads for a near term crisis I am sure is soon to break out.

We're on! One third of the scenario down, two thirds to go.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 04:45:03 AM by Crossroads »
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CS: Middle East 1948-1985 2.0

CS: Middle East AAR: High Water Mark (Syria 10/12/73) Me vs Berto | Riptide (Libya 8/6/85) Me vs Berto | The Crossroads (West Bank 6/5/67)  Me vs Berto

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Offline Crossroads

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Re: CS: Middle East - Crisis in Sirte, a Libya 1985 what-if
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2017, 04:36:45 AM »
Turn 7 Opening Sitrep

Talking about margins of error, let us see then what happened. I fully expected to see this: a Chieftain graveyard

Amazingly that is not how it turned out. Hostiles left right and center, but in the middle, standing their ground: the stranded Chieftain troop  :o

I believe it was fired by two T-72 platoons and by a Sagger armed BMP-1, at 1 000 meter distance, they had the luck of the Irish. No kills, no disruptions, not even a retreat.  :hide:

This will be know as The Miracle of Cumbria. Too much of good luck? We're playing with betas, I need to check what happened. More of that later.

Well I decided not to wait, but created a quick Test Bed with Scenario Editor, using the existing Sirte MAP and ORG files as a basis.

Here we are, three Libyan Tank Coys with one BMP-1 bottom of stack, facing four Chieftain troops at 3 and 4 hexes (750 and 1000 meters, respectively).

And this is how it played out:
  • Left, at 1000 meters: two kills, a few disruptions on the way, a couple of retreats until they were out of LOS
  • Center, at 750-1250 meters (as it retreated): only one kill, several disruptions and retreats until out of LOS
  • Right, at 750-1250 meters (as they retreate too: first troop two kills, disruption + retreat. One final parting shot was available to the 4th troop, which took a disruption and a retreat.


So given this was a 3x test on Libyan TC vs a Chieftain troop, all troops ended in disrupted state, having taken casualties...

: Tank Duel, recreated • show


And another go at this leaves just two thoroughly shell shocked tracks to retreat to safety on their next turn. I mean, it takes numbers to take those Chieftains out, but they are not immortal. Which is good. I was worried for a while.

: and again • show


As for our PBEM game, I was hoping one of the tanks would live to see a day, something supported perhaps by this recreation. No bugs as far as I can see, the Libyans had the most rotten luck on die rolls, while I had the luck of the Irish.

And I guess using those two Lynx missions to improve the odds (3 T-72s and 4 BMP-1s out of equation) was the saving grace here. Angels on our shoulders!

We have made some changes to Adaptive A/I parameter coding, so I was worried for a while. Something to test more before 2.0 rolls out.

« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 04:21:03 AM by Crossroads »
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CS: Middle East 1948-1985 2.0

CS: Middle East AAR: High Water Mark (Syria 10/12/73) Me vs Berto | Riptide (Libya 8/6/85) Me vs Berto | The Crossroads (West Bank 6/5/67)  Me vs Berto

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Offline Crossroads

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Re: CS: Middle East - Crisis in Sirte, a Libya 1985 what-if
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2017, 04:40:19 AM »
To be continued later today, or tomorrow latest with counter attacking their attack  :)
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Offline -budd-

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Re: CS: Middle East - Crisis in Sirte, a Libya 1985 what-if
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2017, 04:55:44 AM »
Crossroads I'm having a little trouble believing those scrimtars weren't spotted. Is this the case of they didn't fire or get bumped into and Berto doesn't spot until next turn. Man I have hard time fixing that idea in my head, so when moving during your own turn you will spot nothing unless they fire on you or you bump into them..Is that a correct interpretation,Just trying to explain the scrimtars.
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Offline Crossroads

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Re: CS: Middle East - Crisis in Sirte, a Libya 1985 what-if
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2017, 06:02:27 AM »
Crossroads I'm having a little trouble believing those scrimtars weren't spotted. Is this the case of they didn't fire or get bumped into and Berto doesn't spot until next turn. Man I have hard time fixing that idea in my head, so when moving during your own turn you will spot nothing unless they fire on you or you bump into them..Is that a correct interpretation,Just trying to explain the scrimtars.

Budd, my guess is that during the previous turn where visibility was 6 both sides had at least that much space between them. I did not see anyone in front of me, I am assuming Berto neither. I take care to move outside LOS of any enemy Recce out there, or where possible eliminate that Recce which has eyes on my units.

When Berto moved ahead for his #6 turn, during the turn he moves to new positions he does not spot from the destination hex(es) until from the beginning of their next turn, not during the movement turn. 

My Scimitar on the other hand stayed put, and as the Libyans moved into its LOS it was able to spot what it did, and beginning my turn #7 the replay shows any units that passed my LOS, in addition to what stayed there. Hence I saw the Hind flightpath.

Scimitar section had its Op Fire set to None against all target types so did not fire at anything thus revealing itself (firing units are spotted in most cases), and was lucky enough to be not bumped into. If you bump into something in a manner you were to move to that hex, or beyond, the unit that stands there is spotted. If you just move next to one, but do not have the AP to move over the unit, or do not try that, you don't see it.

Since you can see both DAR reports, you can perhaps see what happened. First, check my EOP #6, then check Berto's opening view to his turn #6 as he moves second. Then check his EOP#6 view, and my opening #7 view.

I hope this makes sense.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 06:05:13 AM by Crossroads »
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CS: Middle East 1948-1985 2.0

CS: Middle East AAR: High Water Mark (Syria 10/12/73) Me vs Berto | Riptide (Libya 8/6/85) Me vs Berto | The Crossroads (West Bank 6/5/67)  Me vs Berto

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Offline Crossroads

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Re: CS: Middle East - Crisis in Sirte, a Libya 1985 what-if
« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2017, 06:07:28 AM »
So yes, during the turn #6 IGOUGO timespan, he did not see me in the beginning of his turn, did not bump into me (somehow!), and I did not fire at him  :hide:
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Campaign Series: Vietnam 1948-1967 - COMING SOON FROM MATRIX GAMES
CS: Middle East 1948-1985 2.0

CS: Middle East AAR: High Water Mark (Syria 10/12/73) Me vs Berto | Riptide (Libya 8/6/85) Me vs Berto | The Crossroads (West Bank 6/5/67)  Me vs Berto

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Offline Crossroads

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Re: CS: Middle East - Crisis in Sirte, a Libya 1985 what-if
« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2017, 09:51:29 AM »
Chieftains Nine Lives

Shaken from all the shelling, but saved by the deflections, the Chieftain troop considers their odds.

The Libyan TB as that's what seems to be making the noise here has now deployed into battle formations. Screened by infantry, if only by one hex at this time, they've got two Shilka platoons protecting them against enemy air activity (the other one is below the two T-72 platoon chits).

Chieftain troop has visuals to the lone T-72, the BMP-1 platoon, and the Sagger team hastily deploying in for protection. I will not loiter too much around, I'll take my chances the T-72 has already used its Action Points last turn (so no Op Fire but full AP as of their beginning of turn), I am guessing the Sagger team just rushed in and won't be available either, so will take out the BMP-1s and retreat to reverse slope the friendly Javelin team is occupying, and then get the hell out of there and quickly.

: shoot and scoot! • show


And so it played out. The thin skinned BMP-1s stood no chance.

I then use the Double Time option to get the Javelin team out of there as well.

Here they all are, neatly tucked behind my main defense line, as the reverse slope provides it.

: getting outta there part II • show


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Offline Crossroads

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Re: CS: Middle East - Crisis in Sirte, a Libya 1985 what-if
« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2017, 09:57:31 AM »
The Great Tank Battle

I'll just have the time to have a look at the unexpected Libyan TC flanking me from the East.

My, if it wouldn't have been those Scimitars, I'd have no idea what would be coming from there! The guys at outpost Devonshire don't see a thing moving in that plateau the Libyans are arriving from.

Again, I have the initiative to strike first. What rotten luck for the Libyans. They were doing everything right here. Leading with their Recce, keeping their distance to hit at anything the Recce spots.

: They dont get a break do they... • show


To be continued.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 12:32:22 PM by Crossroads »
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Campaign Series: Vietnam 1948-1967 - COMING SOON FROM MATRIX GAMES
CS: Middle East 1948-1985 2.0

CS: Middle East AAR: High Water Mark (Syria 10/12/73) Me vs Berto | Riptide (Libya 8/6/85) Me vs Berto | The Crossroads (West Bank 6/5/67)  Me vs Berto

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