The importance of simulated logistics in game design.

[JasonPratt]

Meanwhile, may I suggest the Kohan games as perhaps the greatest example of RTS logistic/supply implementation? Extending supply through a series of forts is absolutely crucial to winning most maps, and the game tracks net resource expenditure (somewhat like Total Annihilation used to do) at any given moment, so you can focus on what needs improving and on what any purchase will net-cost you. And while resource nodes are important to exploit, the game minimizes and automates (without simply abstracting) the peasant/worker units.

Rise of Nations (plus its expansion) is the only RTS I know of that almost approaches the same logistic/supply balancing act.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

No, that is the name of the set. Each 'episode' ,4 to 5 per disk, 5 disks, has part of the intro reading from a book which is probably the autobiography you mention. The passage sounds like its his voice reading the highlighted part. I seem to remember there were also a few clips where the camera is on Eisenhower where he gives part of the intro. Its been a few years since I watched it so I could be hazy on that, i might be remembering another set. I have 5 or 6 dvd sets on WWII.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Just looked it up
http://www.amazon.ca/Battle-for-Europe-Ww-II/dp/B000929UNW/ref=sr_1_11?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1329970878&sr=1-11


I'd rate it worth watching.

[Toonces]

I definitely don't have the wargame experience of you all, but the more I have played WiTP:AE, the more I have realized that the game really is more of a logistics exercise than anything else.

The combat is also important, of course, but it seems that you spend most of your time effecting combat in order to escort/protect/sieze logistics resources. 

I've heard the game referred to as "Logistics in the Pacific" and I would tend to agree with that.

A game that could greatly benefit from an improved logistics model (IMO) is the Falcon 4 (series).  Theoretically you should be able to win a campaign in Falcon through attrition of the enemy's supply and logistics; for example, destroying all of his factories and depots would should have an effect on his supply/weapons/fuel, etc.  However, this part of the code doesn't seem to be implemented, or it is implemented poorly.  I've never been able to make a dent in the enemy's logistics in Falcon, although such a model of warfare is critical in most of the real and fictional modern warfare books I've read.

[besilarius]

Ah, the good old Red Ball Express.
This is one of those great DOH! moments which makes one think of Homer Simpson at strategy..
To keep the german buildup down in Normandy, the Allies went after the French Railroad System.  Very effective, it really crippled the armies fighting against the allies.
When the allies brfoke through during Operation Cobra, suddenly, there were no rail lines to forward supply to the advancing spearheads.
The Communications Zone planners had never forseen such a phenomenal advance right after all the bocage fighting.  They came up with the Red Ball Express and using C47s to airlift gas.
Surprisingly, it was the british army that caused the most pain.  Something like half of their truck companies were equipped with a new 3 piston engine.  These broke down in alarming numbers once they had to travel over twenty miles from the Normandy beaches.  In effect, about twenty-five percent of the lift capability vaporised off the planner's boards within two weeks.
Then during the advance into the Netherlands, Monty was so focused on Market Garden that he ignored the importance of clearing the Antwerp approaches.  The Eleventh Armored division seized the city and the intact docks with a rush, but to get into Antwerp, ships had to travel through a twenty-five mile waterway.
Ther germans dug in on this, and kept the supplies from being unloaded so close to the need.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

The section of this article called logistics problems is worth reading.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Market_Garden


This looks like a good reference at the end. I'll have to check it out.
Ruppenthal, Roland G (1953), Logistical Support of the Armies: Volume I, May 1941– September 1944, Washington, DC: Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of the Army

• Ruppenthal, Roland G (1959), Logistical Support of the Armies: Volume II, September 1944 – May 1945, Washington, DC: Office of the Chief of Military History, Department of the Army

[jomni]

This games are purely about logistics.  ;D

Fueling the Force

Fueling the Force is an operational-level decision making simulation.  During the simulation, the BLUFOR player will manage petroleum supply units, fuel, trucks, and trailer assets in order to successfully fuel land forces involved in various types of combat operations. The object of the simulation is to keep the force fueled.  Fueling the Force was designed for and used by the U.S. Army's Command and General Staff College at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.

http://www.decisive-point.com/portfolio/fuelingtheforce.html

Forward into Battle

Forward Into Battle is an operational-level decision making wargame that allows students to explore some of the logistics challenges posed while conducting Reception, Staging, Onward Movement, and Integration (RSOI) using a simulated conflict environment.  During game play, the BLUFOR player will manage fuel, transportation assets, and security forces in order to successfully deploy land forces and fuel from sea ports of debarkation to their tactical assembly areas and logistical support areas. The OPFOR will manage various attack means to prevent the BLUFOR player from accomplishing his mission. Forward Into Battle was designed for and used by the U.S. Army's Command and General Staff College.

http://www.decisive-point.com/portfolio/forwardintobattle.html

[bayonetbrant]

^ yes, and designed for completely different purposes than just having a good time after hours  8)

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

This games are purely about logistics.  ;D

Fueling the Force

Fueling the Force is an operational-level decision making simulation.  During the simulation, the BLUFOR player will manage petroleum supply units, fuel, trucks, and trailer assets in order to successfully fuel land forces involved in various types of combat operations. The object of the simulation is to keep the force fueled.  Fueling the Force was designed for and used by the U.S. Army's Command and General Staff College at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.

http://www.decisive-point.com/portfolio/fuelingtheforce.html

Forward into Battle

Forward Into Battle is an operational-level decision making wargame that allows students to explore some of the logistics challenges posed while conducting Reception, Staging, Onward Movement, and Integration (RSOI) using a simulated conflict environment.  During game play, the BLUFOR player will manage fuel, transportation assets, and security forces in order to successfully deploy land forces and fuel from sea ports of debarkation to their tactical assembly areas and logistical support areas. The OPFOR will manage various attack means to prevent the BLUFOR player from accomplishing his mission. Forward Into Battle was designed for and used by the U.S. Army's Command and General Staff College.

http://www.decisive-point.com/portfolio/forwardintobattle.html

No web store? :(


Several of their titles look worth trying.

[bayonetbrant]

Jim sells his stuff through HPS. He designs for CGSC and other military customers and retains the commercial rights

[LongBlade]

We're still early in exploring the game, but log plays a fairly significant role in Wargame: European Escalation.

[Jarhead0331]

We're still early in exploring the game, but log plays a fairly significant role in Wargame: European Escalation.

Damn it!  You beat me to it...how timely this thread really is.

[LongBlade]

We're still early in exploring the game, but log plays a fairly significant role in Wargame: European Escalation.

Damn it!  You beat me to it...how timely this thread really is.

When you can snatch this pebble from my hand, Grasshopper...

[ronswanson]

very interesting