Author Topic: Graviteam Tactics: Mius-Front  (Read 123454 times)

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Offline sandman2575

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Re: Graviteam Tactics: Mius-Front
« Reply #375 on: September 01, 2017, 01:15:23 PM »
Don't see a contradiction. I did say it's better once you learn how to use it. Does the game do much to help in that regard? No -- although the tutorial scenarios in Mius Front are certainly the best effort Graviteam has made to give players something like a proper introduction to how to play the game. I also think some of the confusion boils down to translation issues -- and as well, Graviteam's sometimes pretty aggressive "our way or the highway" approach to user questions and complaints - i.e. their UI is the way they made it, and it's all on you, the player, to come to grips with it. I don't agree with that attitude, but it is what it is.

Completely agree with you about "clunky and labor intensive" as descriptions for CM's UI. Once you've given a platoon a "use roads" command to a destination in Mius Front, the completely ridiculous amount of clicks you need to achieve the exact same thing in Combat Mission will forever haunt you. It's a truly terrible UI.


Offline RyanE

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Re: Graviteam Tactics: Mius-Front
« Reply #376 on: September 01, 2017, 02:20:22 PM »
The road following, jump map, clickable notifications and messages, and all kinds of things to take the burden off commanding units far out weigh learning a new interface.  CMs menu interface feels comfortable to people that play mostly CM.  But once you have a jump map and clickable messages, its painful to go back to CM.  I absolutely hate playing CM in real time because you can't keep track of whats going on.   In the GT games, I forget its real time completely because there are so many tools available to keep track of everything.  Just a simple jump map would solve that for me.  But Steve's "damn the customer, full speed ahead" attitude will eventually doom the CM franchise.

Offline Moreb

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Re: Graviteam Tactics: Mius-Front
« Reply #377 on: September 04, 2017, 07:42:15 PM »
GT is a fantastic game/simulation that every wargamer should own and learn. It is to today what Combat Mission Beyond Overlord was to 1999. I just wish theyd port OP:Star winter battles.

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Offline mikeck

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Re: Graviteam Tactics: Mius-Front
« Reply #378 on: September 04, 2017, 08:37:59 PM »
Dunno, all I have to do in GT is click on unit, hit the target unit button and click on the enemy. Point is, GT UI is odd for sure, But, once you get used to it, it is as good as any other
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Offline jomni

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Re: Graviteam Tactics: Mius-Front
« Reply #379 on: September 05, 2017, 11:32:01 PM »
I don't think it's the amount of clicks. It's not knowing what the commands do and if your guys actually follow them is what prevents people from enjoying GT.  Some people like micromanagement and in CM you actually have a UI fit for micromanagement so they get a feel of more control. General logic is more control = good UI. Less control = bad UI. But GT shouldn't be judged this way as it plays differently by design. There is intentionally less player control and more on setting stances and let the tactical AI do their thing. One must not come into GT looking for the same amount of control as CM.  In CM the tactical AI is not as sophisticated so micromanagement is necessary to prevent them from doing stupid things.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 11:43:10 PM by jomni »

Offline RyanE

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Re: Graviteam Tactics: Mius-Front
« Reply #380 on: September 06, 2017, 06:30:06 AM »
That's weird, in GT, you have the ability to micro-manage a lot more than in CM.  Things like stances and ammo selection are great examples.  I am not sure I see where CM allows more.  In fact, CM takes a lot of stuff out of the players hands by making assumptions on how a unit reacts based on movement orders or the target it faces.  The difference is that in GT, you can either micro-manage or take a higher level of command...its your choice.

The main benefit to me for CM over GT is WEGO, turn saves, and its a sandbox.  GT is somewhat limiting in the battles they choose.

Offline Moreb

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Re: Graviteam Tactics: Mius-Front
« Reply #381 on: September 06, 2017, 06:46:22 PM »
So many replies by so many members here and I don't think anyone is incorrect in their statements. Not completely at least.

I find the Tactical Phase, including the UI, much easier to understand and navigate than the Operational Phase. The hardest and most arcane aspects for me include reinforcements and supply.
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Offline Iconoclast

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Re: Graviteam Tactics: Mius-Front
« Reply #382 on: September 09, 2017, 08:13:46 AM »
As a new member to the forum I am currently reading through the threads that I find relevant to me. I am somewhat closely monitoring its progression since it is a game that I really want to like. But every time I pick it up, I find it frustrating.

Dunno, all I have to do in GT is click on unit, hit the target unit button and click on the enemy. Point is, GT UI is odd for sure, But, once you get used to it, it is as good as any other

I don't think it's the amount of clicks. It's not knowing what the commands do and if your guys actually follow them is what prevents people from enjoying GT.  Some people like micromanagement and in CM you actually have a UI fit for micromanagement so they get a feel of more control. General logic is more control = good UI. Less control = bad UI. But GT shouldn't be judged this way as it plays differently by design. There is intentionally less player control and more on setting stances and let the tactical AI do their thing. One must not come into GT looking for the same amount of control as CM.  In CM the tactical AI is not as sophisticated so micromanagement is necessary to prevent them from doing stupid things.

Both comments, I find, strike at the core of the problem, at least from my perspective. The scenarios I played in GT involved incredibly little involvement on my behalf. I clicked a bit around and watched the action unfold. There were little to none tactical considerations involved on my behalf. formulated a bit more sharply, I felt strongly reminded of me playing Age of Empires 1 as a 10-year old, setting up massive battles in the Editor and then just left my Hoplites do their thing while I just watched. I also felt not very incentivized to make any of these decisions, since I think little of the tools that are available would help me in reproducing results that I would expect in the real world. Unit placement is absolutely wild, Units can't enter buildings (?), not a small portion of the battles are fought on absolutely uniform woods maps, Platoon behavior is...."odd", Guns/Tanks in important firing positions start moving and turning whenever they feel like, ....the list would go on.

The point is: I am a strong proponent of macro-level "as in real life" command. But then I would like to have the approximated tools to give orders as in real live (i.e. boundaries) and have AI subordinates that know how to do their job. Until that is the case, I gladly stick to CM. In that instance, I wear multiple hats at once and am responsible for 99% of the failures (of course not the ones that lose me the scenario in the end  ^-^)

I want to like GT. I really do. I look at the maps and want to dive right into waging war on that beautifully designed area. I love so many features, for example, the C3 simulation, the detailed Tank models, the Indirect Fire Mechanics, and quite a few more.

But every time I jump into it, the game frustrates me on a very basic level. And so long that is the case, I gladly lurk around it, fire it up every few months, and wait for it to to be the game I hope it will be one day.

Question: Is it worth picking up Mius, when I only own OS? Are the differences so remarkable?

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Offline Moreb

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Re: Graviteam Tactics: Mius-Front
« Reply #383 on: September 11, 2017, 03:41:46 PM »
I'd say given your post above, no. It is still the same engine although with some notable improvements. Stick it out and play through a campaign. There is much in the way of fluid tactical movements in most battles. Granted, you could have been playing a fixed defense battle that just doesn't warrant much movement after contact but many of the battles involve searching out the enemy, forming up and pushing for the attack, sometimes at night.

P.S.. If you choose the Defend order and place it on a building, that unit will occupy that building, and often others as is needed, and setup at the windows.

Try playing  without the option that constrains your orders. I'm not front of a computer right now but I think it might be realistic orders?

Whenever I tried operation star I was in the same boat. Picked it up and put it back down. Until one day I muscled through and had the most incredible experience in a war game to date. The series is my favorite that I've ever played, warts and all.

And welcome. I'm fairly new here myself
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 03:43:45 PM by Moreb »
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Offline Moreb

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Re: Graviteam Tactics: Mius-Front
« Reply #384 on: December 20, 2017, 11:14:10 PM »
Newest DLC is out along with a patch for the engine.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/616290/Graviteam_Tactics_Final_Offensive/

Massive 23 turn operation on a new 150 km map.

It's a must have for any fan of the series.

EDIT: WHERE IS ASID? I JUST REALIZED HE HAS BEEN ABSENT FOR OVER A YEAR. THAT GUY HAS ALWAYS BEEN HELPFUL. HOPE YOU ARE FINE ASID.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 12:17:42 AM by Moreb »
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Offline Pete Dero

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Re: Graviteam Tactics: Mius-Front
« Reply #385 on: December 21, 2017, 02:17:13 AM »
EDIT: WHERE IS ASID? I JUST REALIZED HE HAS BEEN ABSENT FOR OVER A YEAR. THAT GUY HAS ALWAYS BEEN HELPFUL. HOPE YOU ARE FINE ASID.

You can find him here : http://dogsofwarvu.com/forum/index.php/board,18.0.html  (that forum has a familiar look to it)

Offline Zulu1966

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Re: Graviteam Tactics: Mius-Front
« Reply #386 on: December 21, 2017, 04:09:19 AM »
EDIT: WHERE IS ASID? I JUST REALIZED HE HAS BEEN ABSENT FOR OVER A YEAR. THAT GUY HAS ALWAYS BEEN HELPFUL. HOPE YOU ARE FINE ASID.

You can find him here : http://dogsofwarvu.com/forum/index.php/board,18.0.html  (that forum has a familiar look to it)

I have bought every game and DLC in the series and whilst I do believe CM is way above in may ways - especially in control and simulation aspects - I think much of what people like are non related to that - the interface in the graviteam games is maddening - by way of example I have just spent 2.5 hours trying to figure out how to make an on map mortar lay down a smoke screen ... after all that time it comes to this

select platoon leader - i think thats the only one
select a spot on the map
then a circle appears with a percentage (think that is accuracy and increases over time - not quite sure if it needs LOS still though)
Then you have to set the mortar to AI fire control (think thats all)
then you have to make sure it is set to stay concealed (this seems to relate to nothing other than it appears to be a free selection combination given that stay concealed normally affects unit posture not ammo selection)

That seems to do what is required - but is baffling in its opaqueness - when you compare to how its done in CM there is no contest.

Aircraft are a compete mystery at the moment and as for the strategy map god knows.

I love the more visceral nature of the game compared to CM but its biggest plus - the strategy layer remains a complete mystery to me. It seems to some extent these guys built a game for themselves so know what to do but forgot about the rest of us.
I still have yet to figure out what the AI is doing in certain circumstances - and while I would kill for a similar formation command to use roads in CM - its not perfect in graviteam - i think sometimes the AI is confused as to the path - as for example i sent a bren carrier on a move use roads commend and it took more than half an hour to reach the spot i set because it insisted on zigzagging all the way to its destination from one side of the road to the other. There are other oddities around the tac AI that I notice all the time - such as getting people into buildings rather than mincing around outside it. A bunch of my guys ran into a minefield yesterday and whereas in CM they would go to ground the entire squad got killed running around like headless chickens - i think trying to get in a formation based on the loss of the men getting killed - setting off a chain reaction...so there is a certain rose tinted spectacles feel about some of the comments and i generally find cm more convincing in this area. Generally the defensive ai in graviteam is awful with the enemy insisting on sending men blindly forward eventhough they are in posession of all the vp locations

It is a good game - i like the models and the graphics flourishes but generally dont think it does anything of much in a better way than cm and whenever I fire it up for a couple of hours it only serves to remind me how much more i like cm.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 04:23:00 AM by Zulu1966 »
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Offline Zulu1966

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Re: Graviteam Tactics: Mius-Front
« Reply #387 on: December 21, 2017, 04:14:14 AM »
GT is a fantastic game/simulation that every wargamer should own and learn. It is to today what Combat Mission Beyond Overlord was to 1999. I just wish theyd port OP:Star winter battles.

Thats going a bit far - BO was a revolution - graviteam is nothing like that.
"you are the rule maker, the dictator, the mini- Stalin, Mao, Hitler, the emperor, generalissimo, the MAN. You may talk the talk and appear to be quite easy going to foster popularity, but to the MAN I say F*CK YOU." And Steve G is F******g rude ? Just another day on the BF forum ... one demented idiots reaction to BF disagreeing about the thickness of the armour on a Tiger II turret mantlet.

Offline Jarhead0331

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Re: Graviteam Tactics: Mius-Front
« Reply #388 on: December 21, 2017, 04:45:25 AM »

EDIT: WHERE IS ASID? I JUST REALIZED HE HAS BEEN ABSENT FOR OVER A YEAR. THAT GUY HAS ALWAYS BEEN HELPFUL. HOPE YOU ARE FINE ASID.

Asid is doing just fine. I speak to him on occasion about new games. He has his own forum and gaming group and has made a decision not to post here anymore.

He can be found at the link Pete posted or on the DoW teamspeak server.
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Offline sandman2575

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Re: Graviteam Tactics: Mius-Front
« Reply #389 on: December 21, 2017, 05:21:07 PM »
Graviteam is on a roll

http://store.steampowered.com/app/742790/Tank_Warfare_El_Guettar/

Had no idea about the new dlc for Mius Front, and no idea this new module was in the works for the North Africa campaign ....  in addition to the recent Longstop Hill and Operation Pugilist dlcs...

All of which I'll be picking up on the Steam sale.