Global lenders face 'killer losses' on Greek debt

[besilarius]

SOM, I'm going to take flak over this.
Spent two years in Greece, 72-74.  At that time, a junta of army colonels had taken over the country.  There was no real internal threat, and Turkey was not a real enemy because they were firmly in NATO.  However, the government view on everything seemed to be based on the violent civil war right after World War II ended.  There was no real threat (a few idealogues on motorcycles with sidearms carried out driveby assassinations), but they were positively expecting everything to fall apart any moment.
We were trying to figure it all out, or at least put it in terms that we could understand.
One of the staff boys who studied Greece told us it was history.
When the Othmanli Turks took over in the fifteenth century, they demolished the existing, Byzantine, institutions.
Everything was thrown out and made to work to fit the world views of a nomadic tribe out of the steppes.
For instance, Greece in the classical era was known for its woodlands and shipbuilding.
Nowadays, they have some very arid land with scrub vegetation. 
Two reasons, the Turks saw trees as a sign of wealth.  So they put a tax on how many trees people had on their farms.  Before long, it became very expensive to have a lot of trees and people started cutting them down.
Then after Lepanto, the Turks cut down every tree in sight to rebuild the galley fleet they had lost.
These two developments devastated the Greek landscape.  All the land eroded and lush farmland became subsistance in the space of a few years.
Then you have the recruitment of the Janissaries of the Emperor's personal slave troops.
These were young boys who were seized wholesale from Christian settlements within the Empire.  The lads were totally cut off from their families and indoctrinated into fanatical muslims who believed they were personal property of the Ottoman emperor.  (Think Hitler Jugend or Securitate of Romania.)
The Greeks started treating their young boys as virtual heroes.  No one knew when some new decree from Istanbul would wreck their existence or if the devshorme' (the child tax) would take their children away forever.
Boys grew up totally spoiled, and society fragmented.  No sense of loyalty to anything larger than immediate family.
There's still a lot of this attitude today, and it may help explain their "me first" attitude on everything.
They have a conditioning that keeps a lot from thinking about a global view.  To them, what happens to their family and themselves in the near term is what truly matters.

[Con]

The silver lining might be that the other economies that are trembling (ie Spain, Italy etc) and Germany that is enforcing the revised agreement will see how horrific the events are when crashing out (rampant hyper inflation of the drachma) coupled with steep recession for the EuroZone including Germany.  This could cause the politicians to finally deal with the problem instead of trying to avoid it or enforce something that the local population is against.

Still its a lot to ask for that in these times of desperation that international cooperation will trump nationalistic leanings and that politicians will do the right thing and leaders lead.

Con

[LongBlade]

Thanks, Bes. It's difficult to imagine how Greece could still let the events of half a millennium ago drive their culture, but apparently it does. I'm afraid their "us first" attitude is about to cost them dearly.

[Airborne Rifles]

I was in Greece in in 2005 and I was really surprised by the xenophobic and complacent attitude of the country.  I had a local explain to me why Greeks hated every country around them (Bulgaria for the immigrants, Albania for some trade dispute and religious reason, Turkey..., and Macedonia simply because they named their country Macedonia!).  He then told me, and this is an almost exact quote, that the attitude of Greeks is that they made their contribution to civilization 2500 years ago and know it's the rest of the world's turn to help them.  Not sure how reflective that is of the whole country but it does seem to fit what's going on over there.

[Gusington]

^Awesome posts. I never realized how strong the sense of entitlement is in Greece. Of course now I must read about what makes the present day Greeks tick, and I found this:

http://www.amazon.com/Greece-The-Hidden-Centuries-Constantinople/dp/1848850476/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_2

Appears to be a bit biased according to some reviews but what-he-hey.

[besilarius]

The whole Balkans is full of entitlement.
I always expect that Bulgaria will be the real powder keg.
Right after World War I, one of Woodrow Wilson's Peace Points was recognizing peoples who had lived on their land for the longest time.  If a village between say Germany and Czechoslavakia had been settled by Czechs, then they got the village.  If Germans founded the village, then Germany got it.  Nationalism had really broken out in Europe, and the statesmen were grappling with pleasing everyone.
Naturally, someone decided they could play this.
The Bulgars showed up at Versailles with a claim that they owned the entire Balkan Peninsula.
They claimed to be the direct descendants of the Avars, a tribe that blew into the Eastern Roman Empire and seized all the lands north of Greece during the sixth century.
They had been on the land the longest of any other people, so they should get it all.
Now as you can imagine, the people settling the borders all over Europe just shook their heads in disbelief.
What is really funny, is that the Bulgar delegation was furious that no one put any creedence in their claim.  It was so right!  So historical!
Then when they got home and told the story, a couple of the great families called for a blood feud with the panel that had "insulted" their honor.
Can you imagine Bulgar hitmen staking out Lafayette Square in Washington, waiting for Wilson to take his evening constitutional?
Or tossing David Lloyd-George out of Big Ben?
I imagine they were even more put out when their grumbling about a blood feud was also ignored.
It;s a little harder to carry out a vendetta if the targets are not in the valley across the plain.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

This is Sparta!

[Gusington]

^I have a t-shirt that says that. Love that shirt.

[Staggerwing]

^I have a t-shirt that says that. Love that shirt.

I bet it's mucho fun to watch people try to pronounce it.

[Gusington]

^The only people who have asked me what it is so far are my two daughters!

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

So do you think Greece will return to militant dictatorship? They will have to hire more police to prevent civil unrest. From there it is not a big jump to more aggressive paramilitaries, armies, blame the external forces, war. Other parts of Europe will demand their money back with increasing pressure. Somewhere
Will the people that cooked Greece's books in the first place end up like the end of the movie "Sum of all Fears"?

[Gusington]

I never saw Sum of All Fears. I have to admit too that I always thought of Greece as a bastion of civilization, not corruption...until this thread. Plus it's in a bad geographic neighborhood and the rest of Western Europe wants their heads so...who knows what could happen?

I bet the Serbs are glad that finally another country in their neighborhood is making the negative headlines.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I never saw Sum of All Fears. I have to admit too that I always thought of Greece as a bastion of civilization, not corruption...until this thread. Plus it's in a bad geographic neighborhood and the rest of Western Europe wants their heads so...who knows what could happen?

I bet the Serbs are glad that finally another country in their neighborhood is making the negative headlines.

The book was way better than the movie.

[Keunert]

^the writing in the sand says

Mormon Babe

???

Was this Mitt Romney as a young dude impressing his then girlfriend?

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

That is in marble under the statue of Leonidas. It was his reply to the Persians at the battle of Thermopylae.
Chances a current leader in any country will have such significance in 2500 years ~ 0.000001%