http://www.strategyinformer.com/news/16322/paradox-sword-of-the-stars-2-was-a-big-failure
Fascinating.
I'd still like to know what exactly happened. Was it simple greed on Paradox's part, as so many feel to be the case? Were they somehow duped and/or misled by Kerberos into believing the game was more or less complete (until it was too late)? I'm really curious as to what actually precipitated this whole fiasco.
I'm not privy to any inside details, but as a general observation Paradox has operated on the basis that it will release games in what many have argued is an unfinished state.
The quid pro quo of this is that Paradox has almost always delivered a series of patches to fix, upgrade, and improve the game - often several years after release.
Religious wars, of course, have broken out all over the web on the wisdom of this strategy, but clearly Paradox has stumbled in this instance.
Why? Money is the lifeblood of any business. By releasing games knowing they will need patching, cash flow helps offset the cost. A trust was established between Paradox and its customers where Paradox gave assurances that anything that didn't work at release would be fixed.
This apparently has strained that relationship enough that Paradox is changing its strategy - at least with regard to 3rd party devs. Whether products developed internally will be affected isn't clear from what I read.
Meanwhile the rest of us will plug along happily on version 1.8 of all the expansions to SotS1. (And buy the Distant Worlds series. {g})
Who cares why it happened...I want to know what they are going to do about it.
I just read the article...more important than stating that the game was a failure, I think is the admission that releasing it in that kind of a state was a "big mistake."
My sense is that by declaring this a failure, they've admitted the code is dead. Irreparable.
I hope not, but what else could it mean?
Quote from: LongBlade on February 01, 2012, 05:13:14 PM
My sense is that by declaring this a failure, they've admitted the code is dead. Irreparable.
I hope not, but what else could it mean?
OK...but how do you reconcile it with the other comment about the release?
Still...I really truly hope you are wrong. There is such tremendous potential in this game.
Quote from: LongBlade on February 01, 2012, 05:13:14 PM
My sense is that by declaring this a failure, they've admitted the code is dead. Irreparable.
I hope not, but what else could it mean?
Kerberos abandons the engine and releases Sword of the Stars 3 on the Paradox Clausewitz engine :o
Quote from: Bison on February 01, 2012, 05:18:10 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on February 01, 2012, 05:13:14 PM
My sense is that by declaring this a failure, they've admitted the code is dead. Irreparable.
I hope not, but what else could it mean?
Kerberos abandons the engine and releases Sword of the Stars 3 on the Paradox Clausewitz engine :o
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wargamer.com%2Fforums%2Fsmiley%2F00000622.gif&hash=184d8e7ed4b54ca9aad473e166b7d7e4d2a4dfd0)
I own the game and its a strange amalgamation of amazing features and broken features. Thankfully I got it on sale and with a giftcard at that. Even after all the patches, it feels like a beta or a tech demo. I am a huge fan of the original SOTS and 4x games in general and I think SOTS2 has some fascinating twists on old themes...but I'm afraid if they don't get it up to par soon it will be abandoned.
I know Kerberos and Paradox have stated they are committed to finishing it, but I can't see them throwing a lot of money into something that was already probably a small moneymaker. I fear they'll just end up abandoning and refunding.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 01, 2012, 05:11:47 PM
Who cares why it happened...I want to know what they are going to do about it.
+1000
I agree with JH, there is still a lot of potential here. I hope they aren't admitting the code is dead. And if they are, they need to provide a refund to those of us that stuck it out.
If they abandon this game, Kerberos is dead to me. I'm not sure what I'll do to Paradox, but it will be creative.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 02, 2012, 07:10:54 AM
If they abandon this game, Kerberos is dead to me. I'm not sure what I'll do to Paradox, but it will be creative.
Heh. Paradox dropping support for the game would almost be worth it, just see what you'd do. :P
...Almost, that is. For as much as the original SotS isn't my cup of tea (and the sequel similarly didn't appeal to me, even before its disastrous release), it would be a shame if they simply stopped bothering to fix it. It's clear a lot of thought and care went into the game's design & development (despite the results), to say nothing of the potentially disappointed/furious customers who purchased it.
Quote from: republic on February 01, 2012, 11:16:32 PM
but I can't see them throwing a lot of money into something that was already probably a small moneymaker.
This is the problem.
I hate to say it, but it was probably inevitable. When your policy is to release games that are not at 100% (taking into account that no game is perfect and all games are patched) then you handicap yourself right out of the door. It is likely that everyone underestimated how much effort it would take to get the game up to speed. Now they've got a problem.
You guys are right - admitting it is the first step but it's what they do next that will make a difference.
I'm admitting I made a "Big Mistake" when I preordered SotS2.
JH, I hate to say it, but I think Kerberos is already on my black list. I feel pretty betrayed, I was an avid fan over there and chatted with the devs pretty regularly. So when they dropped that bomb, it was almost like a personal insult!
Quote from: son_of_montfort on February 02, 2012, 10:19:38 AM
I'm admitting I made a "Big Mistake" when I preordered SotS2.
JH, I hate to say it, but I think Kerberos is already on my black list. I feel pretty betrayed, I was an avid fan over there and chatted with the devs pretty regularly. So when they dropped that bomb, it was almost like a personal insult!
If you had some kind of a rapport with them, do you think you could get some information on their future plans? I just cannot accept that they are abandoning the entire project. To me, this is unthinkable.
Has anyone actually looked at the actual code to see whats going on underneath the hood. Is this even possible to do? Is it something that could eventually be fixed by modders, similar to MOO3?
The total confusion that seemed to be the aftermath of release tells me a lot of people were on very different pages in terms of where the game was at, possibly to the point that they were reading different books.
My own person read on it was that Kerberos realized as release approached just how far behind they really were. Then it became a choice of either delaying release, continuing development spending, and throwing more money down the rabbit hole...or releasing it in the state it was in. That might not have been so bad had someone stepped up right from the start and admitted "Yeah, it's a mess."
@ Arctic Blast: Apologies for the OT comment, but I dig your avatar! It got a "LOL" reaction out of me. :D
Quote from: Arctic Blast on February 04, 2012, 03:43:30 AM
The total confusion that seemed to be the aftermath of release tells me a lot of people were on very different pages in terms of where the game was at, possibly to the point that they were reading different books.
My own person read on it was that Kerberos realized as release approached just how far behind they really were. Then it became a choice of either delaying release, continuing development spending, and throwing more money down the rabbit hole...or releasing it in the state it was in. That might not have been so bad had someone stepped up right from the start and admitted "Yeah, it's a mess."
I'm wondering if that's more or less what happened. Perhaps development was taking a lot longer than Kerboros realized (and/or wanted to admit to themselves), but were hoping -- albeit deludedly -- they could somehow still get things done within the alloted time frame?
Not that Paradox doesn't deserve its own share of blame for what happened, of course. But I am increasingly starting to wonder if Kerberos (hopefully unintentionally) put them in a lose-lose situation.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 02, 2012, 10:23:25 AM
Quote from: son_of_montfort on February 02, 2012, 10:19:38 AM
I'm admitting I made a "Big Mistake" when I preordered SotS2.
JH, I hate to say it, but I think Kerberos is already on my black list. I feel pretty betrayed, I was an avid fan over there and chatted with the devs pretty regularly. So when they dropped that bomb, it was almost like a personal insult!
If you had some kind of a rapport with them, do you think you could get some information on their future plans? I just cannot accept that they are abandoning the entire project. To me, this is unthinkable.
Has anyone actually looked at the actual code to see whats going on underneath the hood. Is this even possible to do? Is it something that could eventually be fixed by modders, similar to MOO3?
Unfortunately I do not have any sort of rapport that would cause them to say any more than the "party line" they have given out thus far. As a member of the gaming press, one of use could attempt an interview, but I don't know where that would go.
Well they just released another fairly large patch, so my faith is a little restored that work on the project will continue.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 04, 2012, 12:13:35 PM
Well they just released another fairly large patch, so my faith is a little restored that work on the project will continue.
I think they are committed to patching, yes... but your other question bothers me the most - is the code and the AI just too borked to ever be workable. I have no doubt the mechanics can be fixed, what I worry about is if the mechanics will have a framework that is sound and if the AI can understand that framework.
Monty...Have you tried playing at all recently? I've ran a few turns and it does seem stable. I'm just apprehensive about jumping in head first if its still missing a lot of promised features.
Quote from: son_of_montfort on February 04, 2012, 11:05:17 AM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 02, 2012, 10:23:25 AM
Quote from: son_of_montfort on February 02, 2012, 10:19:38 AM
I'm admitting I made a "Big Mistake" when I preordered SotS2.
JH, I hate to say it, but I think Kerberos is already on my black list. I feel pretty betrayed, I was an avid fan over there and chatted with the devs pretty regularly. So when they dropped that bomb, it was almost like a personal insult!
If you had some kind of a rapport with them, do you think you could get some information on their future plans? I just cannot accept that they are abandoning the entire project. To me, this is unthinkable.
Has anyone actually looked at the actual code to see whats going on underneath the hood. Is this even possible to do? Is it something that could eventually be fixed by modders, similar to MOO3?
Unfortunately I do not have any sort of rapport that would cause them to say any more than the "party line" they have given out thus far. As a member of the gaming press, one of use could attempt an interview, but I don't know where that would go.
I have worked with Paradox for a long time. I certainly wouldn't be able to find out any more than they were willing to say to anyone else, but I will say that with a substantive patch apparently released, now might be a good time to give them the opportunity to discuss what is going right with the game. If y'all want to work up some questions and email them to me, I'll be more than happy to get it to them.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 04, 2012, 05:15:34 PM
Monty...Have you tried playing at all recently? I've ran a few turns and it does seem stable. I'm just apprehensive about jumping in head first if its still missing a lot of promised features.
I haven't recently, bit the other boards I frequent have some players who report the AI having problems with the newly fixed features. I keep meaning to boot it up, but February is the month of releases (and finishing my dissertation), so it is on the back burner until I see some reports that the game is where it needs to be.
LB, I think that is a great idea, if JH wants to spearhead that, I'll try to think of any additional questions I might have. An interview would be a good feather-in-the-cap for this new venture!
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on February 04, 2012, 05:15:34 PM
Monty...Have you tried playing at all recently? I've ran a few turns and it does seem stable. I'm just apprehensive about jumping in head first if its still missing a lot of promised features.
For whatever it might be worth, I know one gal (whose strategy game tastes run similar to my own) who's played
Sword of the Stars 2 just within the last couple weeks, and she remains unimpressed (despite really wanting to like it).
On the plus side, she concurred the game seemed pretty stable overall. However, she also said it still felt very incomplete with lots of missing/broken features still, and that it also suffered from a lack of adequate information/feedback.
Her overall impression was that SotS2 was only now finally entering a beta state (as opposed to the alpha state in which the game was released)...and that it was still far from being a polished, fully fleshed-out product. Saw lots of potential like you guys have, but that it was almost wholly unrealized at this point. Said she'll *maybe* pick up the game again in six months or so, presuming Paradox/Kerberos keep patching it.