German tanks vs Allied tanks

Started by acctingman, April 22, 2016, 12:00:51 PM

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panzerde

Quote from: acctingman on April 23, 2016, 02:00:32 PM
Love the discussion here gents. Much appreciated. You all are convincing myself that I need to expand my horizons and start reading some good books on battles and tactics used in WW2.

Any suggestions?


Atkinson's Liberation Trilogy to get a good sense of the progression of the war on the West Front: http://liberationtrilogy.com/  Does a great job of putting it all in perspective and explaining the main campaigns. Pair with Grigsby's War in the West from a gaming perspective.


The Stackpole Military History Series books are wonderful. My recommendation is to buy them as paper books rather than Kindle or PDF, because they are full of great illustrations and maps that are tough to see as ebooks.


Small Unit Actions During the German Campaign in Russia is a US Army publication that does a very good job of describing both German and Russian tactics up through the battalion. The link is to a free online version.


Osprey Publishing has a lot of great reference books on individual campaigns, units, and weapons.

"This damned Bonaparte is going to get us all killed" - Jean Lannes, 1809

Castellan -  La Fraternite des Boutons Carres

Crossroads

Battle of Arracourt

Combat Command A of the 4th Armored decisively knocks out the living daylights of 5th Panzer Army's armored assets. Panthers left and right, wiped out by your trusty M4 Shermans and TDs.  :knuppel2:
Campaign Series Legion | CS: Vietnam 1948-1967 | CS: Middle East 1948-1985

CS: Vietnam DAR: LZ Albany as NVA (South Vietnam 11/17/65)  
CS: Middle East AARs: High Water Mark (Syria 10/12/73) Me vs Berto | Riptide (Libya 8/6/85) Me vs Berto | The Crossroads (West Bank 6/5/67)  Me vs Berto

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bob48

I fully agree with panzerde - I have around 20 or so Stackpole books, most of which are new, but some I did get as 'very good' condition used books from amazon. Excellent books and not expensive.
'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers'

'Clip those corners'

Recombobulate the discombobulators!

panzerde

Quote from: Crossroads on April 23, 2016, 02:25:07 PM
Battle of Arracourt

Combat Command A of the 4th Armored decisively knocks out the living daylights of 5th Panzer Army's armored assets. Panthers left and right, wiped out by your trusty M4 Shermans and TDs.  :knuppel2:


+1, exactly what I was going to mention. By that stage of the war the Germans were putting 17 year olds in those Panthers. Tne M-18s took out 75 German tanks in four days. The Germans lost 200 tanks and assault guns, versus 75 American Shermans and 7 TDs. Of the 200 lost German tanks, 114 of them were broken down with either mechanical failure or damage.


Pretty much the entire Lorraine Campaign is that way.
"This damned Bonaparte is going to get us all killed" - Jean Lannes, 1809

Castellan -  La Fraternite des Boutons Carres

Crossroads

Quote from: panzerde on April 23, 2016, 02:40:07 PM

Pretty much the entire Lorraine Campaign is that way.

There's a nice book about 4th Armored by a fellow grognard and an all-around good guy Don M. Fox:

Patton's Vanguard: The United States Army Fourth Armored Division

On another note, related to the topic at hand, here's a nice if a bit high flying presenation about US-vs-German tank action in post-Normandy Europe:

Myths of American Armor. TankFest Northwest 2015

"Every German tank at Normandy was a Tiger"  ;)
Campaign Series Legion | CS: Vietnam 1948-1967 | CS: Middle East 1948-1985

CS: Vietnam DAR: LZ Albany as NVA (South Vietnam 11/17/65)  
CS: Middle East AARs: High Water Mark (Syria 10/12/73) Me vs Berto | Riptide (Libya 8/6/85) Me vs Berto | The Crossroads (West Bank 6/5/67)  Me vs Berto

Boardgame AARs: AH D-Day | MMP PanzerBlitz2 Carentan | OSS Putin's Northern War | GMT Next War: Poland | LnL Against the Odds DIY

Sparhawk

I wonder what the American Army of the latter war could have done with German equipment. What could they have exploited differently? What limitations would have been imposed? Would they have chosen the latest models of Pz IV's? Would they have gone with quantities of Panthers? With American industrial potential at the time, with experienced leadership and crews would the German armor have been a benefit or hindrance? I have never contemplated something such as this before reading this thread. It seems so much support for and against the different armor types hinges around quantities and crew experience.

bob48

My view is that a nation that could have produced a reliable and plentiful version of the Panther would have been onto a winner.
'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers'

'Clip those corners'

Recombobulate the discombobulators!

Pete Dero

Quote from: acctingman on April 23, 2016, 02:00:32 PM
Love the discussion here gents. Much appreciated. You all are convincing myself that I need to expand my horizons and start reading some good books on battles and tactics used in WW2.

Any suggestions?

Maybe this might be be a good start  :


Publications by The U.S. Army Center of Military History   (all publications are available for free)

WWII - European-African-Middle Eastern Theater  http://www.history.army.mil/html/bookshelves/resmat/ww2eamet.html

WWII - Asiatic-Pacific Theater  http://www.history.army.mil/html/bookshelves/resmat/ww2apt.html

panzerde

Quote from: bob48 on April 23, 2016, 04:29:29 PM
My view is that a nation that could have produced a reliable and plentiful version of the Panther would have been onto a winner.


Which is more or less the M26 Pershing.


"This damned Bonaparte is going to get us all killed" - Jean Lannes, 1809

Castellan -  La Fraternite des Boutons Carres

bob48

Yeah, true. I've seen that sequence before. Its incredible, innit.
'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers'

'Clip those corners'

Recombobulate the discombobulators!

magnus

 The American TDs armament was based off of our excellent anti-tank guns.

They could slice and dice anything on battlefield at that time.

Yes, the problems with both the fires and the original armament were fixed in the later part of the war.

I don't think the OP mentioned what year the battle would take place.

I have also read that the Panthers reliability was fixed by the time of DDay.

Would I want to go to battle in a 1943 Panther or Sherman, hell no.

A JS2 is sometimes touted in books as the " best tanks of WW2". It only carried twenty two shells originally and they were so big it was in two pieces like a battleships. The time between shots was ridiculous.

The T-34 is also listed as " best" the seats for the turret were attached to the tank. So how effective could you be if you had to turn the turret?

There are pluses and minuses to all tanks. The Sherman's great advantage was easy of production and reliability. On the strategy scale that is excellent. The poor grunts in it might and did have a different view.

Having tons of models of all types, my opinion is that in the heat of battle it would not be to hard to confuse a PanzerIV with a Tiger. With the skirts on the turret.

bob48

One point here being that the T-34 really became important with introduction of the T-34/85 model. Not only did it have a powerful gun, but a 3 man turret which made a big difference. Again, like the M4, the T-34 was simple enough to be produced in huge quantities.
'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers'

'Clip those corners'

Recombobulate the discombobulators!

RyanE

Here is the pdf version of the SMALL UNIT ACTIONS DURING THE GERMAN CAMPAIGN IN RUSSIA book...

http://www.history.army.mil/html/books/104/104-22-1/CMH_Pub_104-22-1.pdf

btw, I see a lot of myth and legend thrown around here.  I would suggest jumping into the BFC CM archives and look for some of the discussions that went on when CM1 was at its peak.  Many of the myths a that have been perpetuated about German armor and "The Cats"...I hate that reference.  I remember one of the myths was on the propensity of Shermans to catch fire.  I think it was a British study of battlefield wrecks that determined that, on penetration, a panther was as likely to brew up as a Sherman.  The Sherman got the reputation because they got penetrated more often.  Not only did they have weaker armor, but they were more likely to be on the offensive and lead by less experienced senior leaders.

You always have to keep in mind logisitcs also.  The cargo ships could haul more than 3 Shermans for the weight of two Pershings.  If the majority of your combat is offensive operations,  a middling tank that has good mobility and good HE power is good.  And having 33% more of them is better.

And then there is manufacturing change over and crew training.  Its easy for us to look back in hindsight on decisions to not replace the Sherman, but even the US didn't have unlimited resources.  They had carriers, trucks, fighters, and bombers to make also.  Not upgunning the Sherman was a bad decision, but you should underestimate the logistics of those types of decisions when looking back.

mikeck

Quote from: Staggerwing on April 23, 2016, 02:13:12 PM
Quote from: magnus on April 23, 2016, 12:20:46 PM
Reliability I will give you.

However, I would not want to fight in a "Ronson" or a "Tommy cooker".

The M4A3 from mid-production on had wet stowage to reduce ammo ignition on penetration and this was continued on later models. As a result the percentage of M4 burnups reduced dramatically, down to approx. 10% from 80%.

The reason the M4s "brewed up" was because the gunners would improperly stow the ammo around the turret for easier access. But yeah, if your going to narrow it down to which tank I would rather be inside of if I was shot by another tank, I would take the tiger or Panther. But my point is that doesn't make them better tanks and as to the OPs question, doesn't mean that a group of panthers could defeat 4 times their number in Sherman's. Of course, it's anyone's guess
"A government large enough to give you everything you want is strong enough to take everything you have."--Thomas Jefferson

mikeck

Quote from: Sparhawk on April 23, 2016, 04:11:16 PM
I wonder what the American Army of the latter war could have done with German equipment. What could they have exploited differently? What limitations would have been imposed? Would they have chosen the latest models of Pz IV's? Would they have gone with quantities of Panthers? With American industrial potential at the time, with experienced leadership and crews would the German armor have been a benefit or hindrance? I have never contemplated something such as this before reading this thread. It seems so much support for and against the different armor types hinges around quantities and crew experience.

One of the biggest problems with the Panther and Tiger were reliability. The Sherman was reliable and easy to repair. That helped the logistics situation considerably. Frankly, if I'm Omar Bradley, I would stick with the Sherman. I don't want my armored divisions slowed or inactive due to mechanical issues. Of course, the PZ-IV was good...so who knows
"A government large enough to give you everything you want is strong enough to take everything you have."--Thomas Jefferson