Author Topic: Highfleet  (Read 689 times)

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Offline al_infierno

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Re: Highfleet
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2021, 12:33:55 AM »
^ Well this post convinced me to pick the game up and give it a whirl.  :buck2:
It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge.  War endures.  As well ask men what they think of stone.  War was always here.  Before man was, war waited for him.  The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner.  That is the way it was and will be.  That way and not some other way.
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If they made nothing but WWII games, I'd be perfectly content.  Hypothetical matchups from alternate history 1980s, asymmetrical US-bashes-some-3rd world guerillas, or minor wars between Upper Bumblescum and outer Kaboomistan hold no appeal for me.
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Offline Jarhead0331

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Re: Highfleet
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2021, 05:21:15 AM »

By every means, this is one of the most complex games available out there to a larger public in regard of gameyfying SIGINT & EW warfare. People say Command is complex - I never quite got that feeling myself (perhaps the hours spent playing Harpoon do pay some dividend afterall) but that? It's on another level.


Can you please explain this and shed a little more light on this claim? I’ve found the SIGINT aspect of Highfleet to be a cute diversion, but fairly trivial overall. Where is the complexity that in anyway could compare it to CMANO? Unless I am missing something, there is no challenge to it and the only signals to intercept are basic communications that are revealed in a scripted manner. Again, it’s a neat little gimmick, but nothing more in my view…where is the “complexity”? I am pretty early in the campaign and have only had the opportunity to intercept two messages, does the system change deeper into the game?
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Offline The_Admiral

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Re: Highfleet
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2021, 08:05:21 AM »
Perhaps complex as a word was badly chosen here - by there I did not mean an excess of depth or lack thereof, I meant an ease of access in regard of the systems simulated. Technically Command and Harpoon before it do muster all relevant information on the same interface as they integrate the flux of information coming from different sensors, whether they are active, passive or triggers all together on your situation map. In other terms, the CIC does its job and you, as a commander, get the information digested in real time. By Command not being complex to my eyes, I meant that it was very much familiar to my senses. It isn't a big departure from Harpoon for all the best reasons, and provides you with a pre-processed situational awareness which you would expect as a commander, at the required level of detail or control today even more than in the early days of CMANO (obviously it got better at that over the years too, and after that CMO was a big step forward in many regards when it comes to customizing the experience & taking into account the characteristics of the sensors feineding the info).

Here, first off, to make sure that I am not being misunderstood as being critical in that regard. It's not that I deem CMO easy or overly simplified, it's just that I tend to find it streamlined & intuitive by the standards of the milsim industry despite the cries I used to hear left & right about it being the GUI bogeyman.  :knuppel2:

Now, as for Highfleet, the comparison stands, and yet doesn't at the same time. Technically the result is the same - information will end up in the map - but it is not processed by your staff, it is processed by yourself. Hell, your staff doesn't collect it either, you do. You are the whole chain of command instead of only being at the top of it. For one, by my standards - and that's why I'd find CMO less complex of a business - its gameplay comparatively requires naturally attention, dedication & technical skills of a higher degree in order to make the most of it. It is, for all intents and purposes, not unlike what we have in the new Destroyer: The Uboat Hunter demo in its non-simplified, non-automated form. You end up doing the jobs of different specialized ratings so as to involve you further in the final result. Clearly Command is a command (!) game, a tactical affair. Highfleet, or Destroyer, are hybrids: to be allowed to make tactical decisions, you need to go through a simulation-like process first in order to provide yourself with the dope, and this is one of the first inherent, seminal characteristics of this game which might take a grognard by surprise (and involve a strong reaction).  :hide:

Now, when it comes to these mini games, or "little gimmicks" as you call them, they are aplenty, and I am a bit at a loss to explain to you how you should consider them to be complex. If you are to check a few vids online (just checked a few ones here) Caracal in particular certainly would make a better job of it, and he obviously covers areas that I didn't even get to play myself early on either, or understand fully. The man does.





But to summarize my thoughts
- Game covers air radar, ground radar, object radar signature, search vs tracking, radar signature damping, counter-detection, radar jamming, directional search & jamming, anti-radiation guidance, perhaps even home on jam, IRST, IR signature... Whatever the gimmicks are, some of them are surprising for a game with that sort of gameplay & story, and obviously another reason why one would be pleasantly - or unpleasantly surprised when he/she realizes there's a need to deal with all this if you want a winning, or even a fighting chance. Naturally, the fact that they tend to be based on soviet-inspired tech (as the IRST or the RWR will show it easily) makes them both alien & familiar at the same time, and relatable despite the completely fantasy system & situation. Not saying CMO doesn't have it, again it's apples & oranges: to a CMO player, all this amounts to a track number & a contact line with a color or a legend according to the relevant sensor - here it's all on you (so yes, by these standards I don't find myself particularly overwhelmed in front of my big blue CIC map  ^-^).

- I can understand one would call all these features trivial & cute (not just them - same with the landing phase, or even combat), at the end of the day I don't find them any less or more repetitive than, say, acquiring your XXXXth contact on your FCR display in any modern flightsim environment. To me it's as much part of your job as it is in any simulation. I don't complain about sweeping my antenna in my Falcon or my Flanker, why should I find problematic to do so in Highfleet? Only reason, again, would be chiefly due to a misunderstanding on my part of what this game is, and a clear disagreement between that direction picked by the creator, and what I think it should be.

- As for SIGINT, it's just another game in the game indeed. But it answers to the same logic as above, and to me it's all the same thing: it's not less a feature than having to look for a radar contact myself, the difference being that you can find yourself without a radar - but never without a radio (or radio intercept gear, that is). The way it is being simulated gives it a distinct "vintage" feel not unlike that of what radio intercept teams had to deal with and in that regard I have much respect for what was achieved here. Between the mechanical part & the decoding part, and its ramifications (especially when coding keys need to be acquired, or when the contents of a message reveal juicy intel that you might deduct from casual chatting) I'd say you end up with a rather meaty mini game that is not inferior to the rest. But the real complexity comes in with the array of strategic options you have in your hands, what you can dynamically decide to do based on the contents of a message, or even the fragments of a message. The mere fact that you can act decisively & smartly based on the contents of the intel you collect is the sort of thing few other games can recreate, and for a change it's all part of the command part of the game - and add tremendously to the depth of the options you have at your disposal. There again, Caracal made an efficient presentation that deals with the topic under 10mn, up to you to tell me if you managed to catch on all the possible applications of this mini-game by yourself by now. If you did, then congrats  :)



But as a side-note, at the end of the day, if you don't find it - or the rest - much enjoyable at all, I am afraid Jarhead that you might not be the public to begin with - which is, by any means, quite alright. At some point, if this (very much assumed) collection of mini-games put together in the larger narrative & gameplay package that is Highfleet reveals itself to be unable to retain your attention, it's not shocking at all. We're all at different stages of our own, personal journey into our (necessary) suspension of disbelief when faced with games that attempt overly immersive environments. Sometimes it hits home - and sometimes it's a dud. :coolsmiley:

Here! Hope it made my point & my opinion a bit clearer :pullhair:
Cheers.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2021, 08:26:28 AM by The_Admiral »

Offline W8taminute

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Re: Highfleet
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2021, 08:27:39 AM »
You have some very good points Admiral in favor for the game.  I can see the appeal here to the right kind of player. 

One thing you did mention which hit the nail on the head for me is there is a lot of stress in this game.  For some that may be exhilarating.  For me I prefer not to be stressed out from a game that is supposed to help calm me down and let me escape the every day life stresses.   

Again though you are correct.  Personal preferences apply.  If my rage rant offended anyone I'm sorry.  Some clearly do like this game but if my shared experience helps someone on the fence then maybe I can save someone some grief and loss of money on a game that might not be for them.
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Offline Gusington

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Re: Highfleet
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2021, 08:39:25 AM »
^Don't apologize, especially after the fully fleshed out review you just posted above!
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Offline Jarhead0331

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Re: Highfleet
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2021, 08:46:09 AM »
Thanks for your post Admiral. I was unaware that those kind of EW systems were modeled in anyway. I guess I just haven't made it that far into a game. I feel like I ran into a wall at Ur, I think, where i come against a very large enemy fleet. I feel like it is too early in the game for this to happen, so I'm afraid I'm missing something.

In any event. Glad to see those details included, even if they aren't from a technical standpoint, "complex".

Cheers!
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Offline The_Admiral

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Re: Highfleet
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2021, 10:13:24 AM »
You have some very good points Admiral in favor for the game.  I can see the appeal here to the right kind of player. 

One thing you did mention which hit the nail on the head for me is there is a lot of stress in this game.  For some that may be exhilarating.  For me I prefer not to be stressed out from a game that is supposed to help calm me down and let me escape the every day life stresses.   

Again though you are correct.  Personal preferences apply.  If my rage rant offended anyone I'm sorry.  Some clearly do like this game but if my shared experience helps someone on the fence then maybe I can save someone some grief and loss of money on a game that might not be for them.

You're quite the gentleman W8, no offense given nor taken, there's absolutely no reason to apologize.
No worries, everyone again is obviously entitled to his own opinion and path. One man's glory can very well be another man's dud.

It ain't a perfect game either (which is? especially in these days), I say it as a player & a dev both, but I have to admit that in the latter case, I do hope that TFA will be at least half as "complete" in regard of our own extreme, complete vision as Konstantin has gone in regard of his own project. He delivered what he dreamed of, and it holds it own. It is certainly a polarizing game with a very steep learning curve, but most reviews do agree on the fact that it has a soul, and a novel outlook on things. Nothing was like it before. Whether it is destined to inspire other makers or remain a unique animal forever is a story for another day. One cannot say he hasn't been scared by it, positively or negatively that is - but what we can agree on is that it sure leaves a mark  8)

Cheers gents!