https://www.foxnews.com/live-news/live-updates-miami-area-apartment-building-partially-collapses
Sounds pretty bad, 1 dead and 51 missing. :(
I'm not a religious person per se, but plenty of folks there are needing some prayers.
Hope they find 'em all alive.
Local building inspectors are going to have some explaining to do.
They managed to pull one boy from the rubble, hopefully they will find a few more.
Quote from: Gusington on June 24, 2021, 12:17:02 PM
Local building inspectors are going to have some explaining to do.
I'm wondering if the collapse was caused by a sinkhole, considering the area it is in. There is no explosion evident in the video, and with the Oklahomo City bombing, the very well designed building only lost one structural support column which prevented the whole building from collapsing.
The Miami building was built in 1980 well after the Ronan Point building disaster (London 1968) where a gas stove explosion blew out a poorly built supporting wall and the prefabricated concrete floors collapsed in the badly constructed building. It is doubtful that in the US the concrete was adulterated such as by using too much sand as the Italian Mafia is accused of, such as in the collapse of the bridge in Genoa in 2018.
However, mistakes can occur with design, concrete mixing and testing as well as the construction. Hopefully, if one structural support fails in a building the others should still support it.
Quote from: Gusington on June 24, 2021, 12:17:02 PM
Local building inspectors are going to have some explaining to do.
A lot more than local building inspectors are going to have to answer for this. I suspect the bodycount is going to climb sharply. This happened at 1:00 a.m. and the building is more than 80% occupied.
update: 99 missing. :(
I would like to know how a building gets to that state without any clues that something bad is imminent.
Quote from: Gusington on June 24, 2021, 04:12:52 PM
I would like to know how a building gets to that state without any clues that something bad is imminent.
Good question. Apparently it was due for a 40 year inspection. Guess they need to make it 20 or 30 year inspections.
Does that mean for the last 40 years, since it was built, there have been minimal or even no inspections?
Would guess that it may have something to do with higher water tables affecting foundation(s) & piles (or maybe sinkholes - there was that lake in Florida that went dry lately) moreso than dreamt of when the building was constructed - but I ain't no engineer, so I'm guessing like any other layman.
Certainly expect a serious amount of deep and detailed building inspections to happen now in the area, but don't think DeSantis is going to mandate anything.
Hell, could fully expect a Federal mandate to tighten up inspection times if more buildings prove to be in similarly poor condition.
There had to be some obvious telltale signs that something this catastrophic was going to happen, sinkhole, fatigue, rot, or whatever the cause.
Quote from: Gusington on June 24, 2021, 04:40:32 PM
There had to be some obvious telltale signs that something this catastrophic was going to happen, sinkhole, fatigue, rot, or whatever the cause.
Probably, but if there was such a long time between inspections by certified engineers, then who knows?
And even if there were telltales, then you are looking at the issue of money for repair and I daresay no one wanted to be saddled with that burden.
To wit; I help with bridge inspections in my State. We catalog faults and send them up the chain. Those guys up there at the State level then have to juggle with what needs fixing, how soon it needs fixing, and if they've the money to do such a thing now or later.
Do not envy anyone who has to make those decisions.
^We are definitely related. My grandfather was a civil engineer and bridge inspector, among other things, in Manhattan, from the 1930s - 1960s. I never really knew him because he died when I was very young but my own father told me he loved that job.
Anyway, without giving too much away, I work for the government now at the State level (in energy). Yes there are tons of red tape to get through for many decisions but sometimes there is a clear path to the right decision, even in government.
No idea what it's like in FL but I still believe that something like this is avoidable at many points and levels.
TV Reports of complaints from residents when another condo very close by was constructed that the construction was causing shaking inside the condo. There was roof work being done during the day but that could hardly cause building collapse. Surfside is just north of Miami Beach and the condo was close to the beach so a poor foundation is always a concern I would think. Where's Star when we need his professional opinion?
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/us/collapsed-miami-condo-had-been-sinking-into-earth-as-early-as-the-1990s-researchers-say/ar-AALoUP0?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531
If this is the cause of the collapse, I am shocked at the wanton disregard for life.
Quote from: Uberhaus on June 25, 2021, 01:02:41 AM
If this is the cause of the collapse, I am shocked at the wanton disregard for life.
I'm not, but I'm a jaded, old man.
And your avatar just clicked in my head and I giggled like mad.
^I just read that report literally 30 seconds ago. As early as the 1990s. At least 20 years. Unreal.
Damn, sounds like they knew something was up decades ago...and did nothing.
Number of missing is now up to...159...Jesus.
1. so the building had been sinking because of being built on reclaimed marshy ground. this isnt that uncommon down here due to the type of land and where it was built. all the newer building have piling that are sunk to some really deep levels to counter this.
2. there are reports and lawsuits about how the building has been maintained. these specifically deal with black mold and water damage. reportedly 1 owner has sued twice.
3. the complaints, imo, about the recent building in the area are valid. these are MUCH larger structures and sinking in the afoementioned pilings could definitely effect this building so close by.
4. there was roof work being done at the time and we've also had a shit ton of rain lately.
5. the section that collapsed wasnt part of the core building even though it was all built at the same time.
so heres what I think went down. the building already had water damage in the concrete but thats probably limited to the periphery around the building.
the work on the roof let more water/moisture get in between the core and periphery seam of the upper levels of the building so that when the upper section collapsed you had a 9/11 style pancaking down the side of the structure. being an older building in that neighborhood ment that its not seasonal so that explains the 80% occupancy. I'm actually surprised that pre-Andrew buildings don't have shorter mandatory inspection periods. I'm also sure thats about to change dramatically as we have some of the strictest building codes in the country. unfortunately this was built 12 years before those codes came into effect.
all around a fucking tragedy.
Quote from: steve58 on June 25, 2021, 09:26:41 AM
Damn, sounds like they knew something was up decades ago...and did nothing.
all large buildings settle as not everyone is lucky enough to build on a giant granite slab like NYC.
Quote from: Sir Slash on June 24, 2021, 09:32:15 PM
Where's Star when we need his professional opinion?
oddly enough I was in Miami hanging out with my brother before he left for California this morning.
the fucking joys of Miami International at 7am... ::)
I have BEEN there! :hide: Miami International is the original Cluster--uck. So, preventable in your opinion or Act of God?
it was never ment to service the number of people that are here now. Dade county really needs another airport.
also a clarification on the collapse I just thought of. if there was already water damage to the building that resulted in hairline cracks in the concrete then the close proximity construction would definitely make those cracks bigger due to resonance. a simple fact of construction is that water always finds a way. so hairline cracks allow water to get into and saturate the concrete which then eventually gets to the rebar which then starts to slowly rust and weaken. add in poor maintenance, 2 months of spring floriduh weather and roof replacement and POOF!
Is it much of a stretch to say that other buildings in the area are vulnerable? Or is this a very unique set of circumstances coming together for an 'unlucky lottery' type of thing?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57621774
QuoteThe engineer's report, which has just been made public, said the fault prevented water draining from the base of the seafront Champlain Towers...
The building consultant's report from three years ago came to light in a series of documents made public by the town of Surfside.
The engineer, Frank Morabito, said the lack of proper drainage was "a systemic issue" that stemmed from a flaw "in the development of the original contract documents".
He flagged what he called "major structural damage" to the concrete platform beneath the swimming pool deck. "The failed waterproofing is causing major structural damage to the concrete structural slab below these areas," he wrote. "Failure to replace the waterproofing in the near future will cause the extent of the concrete deterioration to expand exponentially."
The engineer also referred to "abundant cracking... of columns, beams and walls" in the parking garage.
His report didn't suggest the 40-year-old building was at any imminent risk of collapse but he urged that the concrete repairs be carried out in "a timely fashion"...
Kenneth Direktor, a lawyer involved in the work, was quoted in the New York Times as saying engineers had identified rusted steel and damaged concrete that needed repairing, but added that he saw nothing to suggest the collapse had anything to do with that review.
I have become a cynical man, but I am still shocked that this kind of structural deterioration would be treated like a can to be kicked down the road. It's not cracking concrete slabs in your backyard patio, it's the structural integrity for a large residential building. Now other news sources are reporting rescue efforts impeded by a fire probably from cars buried in the underground parking.
(Dammit Carl! I'm sending you a PM about my avatar.)
Same as the BBC article but these include pictures of the damage.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/26/us/miami-building-collapse-investigation.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage
https://www.thedailybeast.com/engineer-warned-of-major-structural-damage-to-champlain-tower-before-miami-condo-collapse?ref=home
A structural engineer hired by the Champlain Towers South in 2018 to review possible repair needs warned of "major structural damage" to the concrete foundations of the oceanfront condo.
The town of Surfside released the engineer's report late on Friday, as investigators and residents searched for answers on how a 12-story building could have suddenly fallen to the ground, leaving four people dead and 159 still missing under huge piles of rubble.
Morabito's report found that the waterproofing installed beneath the pool deck, entrance area, and planters was "beyond its useful life and therefore must all be completely removed and replaced."
"The failed waterproofing is causing major structural damage to the concrete structural slab below these areas. Failure to replace the waterproofing in the near future will cause the extent of the concrete deterioration to expand exponentially," it warned.
The issue stemmed from a "major" error made by the building's original architects and engineers, the report said. Rather than making the reinforced concrete slab beneath the pool deck and entrance to be sloped, it was made flat. Therefore, water had to sit on the waterproofing until it evaporated, instead of flowing freely to deck drains.
(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2021/06/26/world/26miami-mystery1/merlin_189908736_e52a6f94-5b5e-42bf-ad15-864df8842afa-superJumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp)
(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2021/06/26/world/26miami-mystery2sub/merlin_189909303_139af962-9c01-465a-b71d-36b4591ae91f-superJumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp)
This is why I live in central Texas, where we have no rain or water. This solves many problems.
It has been my experience as an engineer that few people really want to hear what we have to tell them because it usually requires them to spend money.
Quote from: Gusington on June 26, 2021, 11:12:22 AM
Is it much of a stretch to say that other buildings in the area are vulnerable? Or is this a very unique set of circumstances coming together for an 'unlucky lottery' type of thing?
Not a local or an engineer, but I'd wager that that wasn't the only building in such a state in that area.
Lord, those poor people. :-[
Sounds like the pool went first (https://www.foxnews.com/us/miami-condo-collapse-woman-told-husband-pool-cave-in) and may have caused/contributed to the rest of the collapse.
Governments and institutions, almost everywhere, wait for a crisis to occur before taking action to remedy a situation. Prevention is always a great talking point, but rarely practiced.
I worked for many years in a business that was yearly inspected by health and building authorities. We always knew when they were coming, and of course everything was more or less up to scratch on the day. Yes the day. It was a source of wonder that all could be inspected and approved in one day.
^All true but more and more reports are coming out on what ordinary people, either living in the building or visiting, saw or heard for months or even years before the collapse.