(Merged Thread): Stolen Valor Act ruled unconstitutional

Started by Martok, June 28, 2012, 12:03:20 PM

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Martok

Between the rulings on Arizona's immigration law and now Obama's health care reform legislation, I'm almost surprised anyone even noticed this one


Quote

SCOTUS strikes down Stolen Valor Act
By Tom Curry, msnbc.com National Affairs Writer


The Supreme Court on Thursday struck down a federal law called the Stolen Valor Act which prohibits a person from falsely claiming that he has been awarded a military honor.

The case involved Xavier Alvarez who was an elected member of the Three Valleys Municipal Water District Board in Pomona, California. In 2007 Alvarez said at a public water district board meeting that he was a retired Marine, had been "wounded many times," and had been "awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor" in 1987.

In fact, he had never served in the United States armed forces.

He pleaded guilty to violating the Stolen Valor Act, but claimed that his false statements were protected by the First Amendment right of free speech.

In defending the law, the Obama administration had argued that "military awards serve as public symbols of honor and prestige, conveying the nation's gratitude for acts of valor and sacrifice; and they foster morale... and esprit de corps within the military.  False claims to have received military awards undermine the system's ability to fulfill these purposes" and "make the public skeptical of all claims to have received awards...."

But Alvarez's lawyers contended that the First Amendment freedom of speech protected "exaggerated anecdotes, barroom braggadocio, and cocktail party puffery."

His lawyers said that there was no evidence that false claims undermined the integrity of military medals, and to the extent they do affect their integrity, the government "should encourage counter-speech or legislate against actual fraud," – and Alvarez wasn't accused of fraud, only of false speech.


So now what?  There's gotta be some way to stop these douchebags from pulling this crap. 


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son_of_montfort

I, for one, am glad that the First Amendment protects "cocktail party puffery." I mean, what else are academics to do when they gather?!  ;)

The SCOTUS has had a busy week, and the seem bound and determined to rile people up. I guess I understand the idea of Freedom of Speech here, but it just seems so sleazy.
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Windigo

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My wife insists that it says dyslexia but what does she know.

Martok

Quote from: son_of_montfort on June 28, 2012, 12:09:04 PM
I guess I understand the idea of Freedom of Speech here, but it just seems so sleazy.
Yeah, I don't blame SCOTUS for ruling the way they did, but at the same time it's monstrous that there are those who would claim military service...and now we have no way to punish them for it. 


"Like we need an excuse to drink to anything..." - Banzai_Cat
"I like to think of it not as an excuse but more like Pavlovian Response." - Sir Slash

"At our ages, they all look like jailbait." - mirth

"If we had lines here that would have crossed all of them. For the 1,077,986th time." - Gusington

"Government is so expensive that it should at least be entertaining." - airboy

"As long as there's bacon, everything will be all right." - Toonces

Jack Nastyface

I don't have an objection to "exaggerated anecdotes, barroom braggadocio, and cocktail party puffery", when used in those type of social circumstances...but touting an imaginary service record as a matter of public record and in the hopes of receiving public accolades and / or support is anathema.  This law should be upheld.

I think the only difficulty I have is when it comes to those dishonorable few who falsely claim combat injury, emotional distress or PTSD.  Meaning:  if a army payroll clerk in Des Moines (who has never served in a combat theatre) claims emotional trauma because he saw a fictitious buddy take an RPG...is there / should there be a way to formally discipline this kind of attention seeking behavior?
Now, the problem is, how to divide five Afghans from three mules and have two Englishmen left over.

meadbelly

Having not served in the military or inculcated in that tradition, the offensiveness of faked military honors is less offensive to me than, for example, an anti-semitic or other racial online rant. (I do not mean to dismiss or demean anyone's disgust with fake militar honors.)

I think the Supreme Court did the right thing. I am loathe to invoke the slippery slope, but we need to retain freedom of speech as close to an absolute as possible. There is possibly no quicker path to a tyranny of the majority.

Having said that, any jackadoodle making up military honors deserves our condemnation and disgust. It's a slap in the face to anyone who has served, honoured or not. It's horribly, massively wrong.

If I were french, I would fart in their general direction.

Staggerwing

Quote from: Jack Nastyface on June 28, 2012, 01:09:15 PM
I don't have an objection to "exaggerated anecdotes, barroom braggadocio, and cocktail party puffery", when used in those type of social circumstances...but touting an imaginary service record as a matter of public record and in the hopes of receiving public accolades and / or support is anathema.  This law should be upheld.

I think the only difficulty I have is when it comes to those dishonorable few who falsely claim combat injury, emotional distress or PTSD.  Meaning:  if a army payroll clerk in Des Moines (who has never served in a combat theatre) claims emotional trauma because he saw a fictitious buddy take an RPG...is there / should there be a way to formally discipline this kind of attention seeking behavior?

My understanding is that the Military itself can and will punish those in the Military who lie about these type of things. The law was aimed at civilians who, if citizens of the USA, are constitutionally not subject to military law and punishment.
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mirth

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bayonetbrant

^^^  there is absolutely no way to legally justify that law under the Constitution.

I'm all for hammering guys with fraud charges if they use 'stolen valor' for personal gain.  And I'm all for merciless and extensive public shaming for 'tards who try to puff up their records.

But illegal?  Absolutely no way to justify it at all within the bounds of our Constitution.  I'm a 14-year veteran who's the son of a 30-year veteran, who was the son of a WWII veteran, and I couldn't find any way at all to support this law.
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son_of_montfort

Do note, there is already a short discussion of this in CE:

http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=2002.0

As I said there, I like the protection of Cocktail Party Puffery, given it is a trained skill for most academics.  ;D
"Now it is no accident all these conservatives are using time travel to teach our kids. It is the best way to fight back against the liberal version of history, or as it is sometimes known... history."

- Stephen Colbert

"The purpose of religion is to answer the ultimate question, are we in control or is there some greater force pulling the strings? And if the courts rule that corporations have the same religious rights that we humans do, I think we'll have our answer."

- Stephen Colbert

Arctic Blast

Quote from: Martok on June 28, 2012, 12:03:20 PM

So now what?  There's gotta be some way to stop these douchebags from pulling this crap.

If there's any justice, I'd say a severe beating is the answer.

bayonetbrant

I merged 2 threads, so there might be some disjointedness between the messages.
The key to surviving this site is to not say something which ends up as someone's tag line - Steelgrave

"their citizens (all of them counted as such) glorified their mythology of 'rights'...and lost track of their duties. No nation, so constituted, can endure." Robert Heinlein, Starship Troopers

Windigo

Quote from: bayonetbrant on June 28, 2012, 11:38:38 PM
I merged 2 threads, so there might be some disjointedness between the messages.

don't you have a PBEM game going on or something
My doctor wrote me a prescription for daily sex.

My wife insists that it says dyslexia but what does she know.

mirth

Quote from: bayonetbrant on June 28, 2012, 11:27:57 PM
^^^  there is absolutely no way to legally justify that law under the Constitution.

I'm all for hammering guys with fraud charges if they use 'stolen valor' for personal gain.  And I'm all for merciless and extensive public shaming for 'tards who try to puff up their records.

But illegal?  Absolutely no way to justify it at all within the bounds of our Constitution.  I'm a 14-year veteran who's the son of a 30-year veteran, who was the son of a WWII veteran, and I couldn't find any way at all to support this law.

I fully agree with this portion of Judge Alito's dissenting opinion:

Quote"By holding that the First Amendment nevertheless shields these lies," Justice Alito wrote, "the court breaks sharply from a long line of cases recognizing that the right to free speech does not protect false factual statements that inflict real harm and serve no legitimate interest."

The law was clearly written for false statements made about having been awarded military honors. I do not see that as protected speech, nor do I see it opening a pandora's box on other forms of legitimately protected speech.
"45 minutes of pooping Tribbles being juggled by a drunken Horta would be better than Season 1 of TNG." - SirAndrewD

"you don't look at the mantelpiece when you're poking the fire" - Bawb

"Can't 'un' until you 'pre', son." - Gus

bayonetbrant

^^ So I can't dress up in a Halloween costume and slap a bunch of ribbons on my chest?

Quotethe right to free speech does not protect false factual statements that inflict real harm and serve no legitimate interest.

And that is why fraud laws will cover "false factual statements that inflict real harm"

What pray tell should one do about a false factual statement that inflicts no harm but also does not serve a legitimate interest?
The key to surviving this site is to not say something which ends up as someone's tag line - Steelgrave

"their citizens (all of them counted as such) glorified their mythology of 'rights'...and lost track of their duties. No nation, so constituted, can endure." Robert Heinlein, Starship Troopers