http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/14/florida-high-school-under-lockdown-after-reports-shooter-victims-police-say.html
Reports of 20+ injured.
Shooter still at large.
Just watched 3 students loaded into ambulance. One walked. Emts working on at least 3 others on sidewalk.
This is all too friggin familiar >:(
Video showing what looks like 1 student handcuffed and being placed into back of police car
Terrible.
This is just fucking horrible. The probable fatality count is up to 16.
I know a few people that have kids at this school. shit, I was working about 3 miles away today.
I hope and pray that your friends' kids are all safe.
as far as I know yes.
Quote from: Staggerwing on February 14, 2018, 06:36:51 PM
This is just fucking horrible. The probable fatality count is up to 16.
Just say 2 news updates, 17 dead.
Shooter may have been a former student.
Jesus Christ, when I was in school the worst you could expect was an ass whipping if you were on the wrong end of a fight. What the hell has happened to our society that these kind of shootings aren't uncommon anymore?
A possible shooting up in Everett (north of Seattle, WA) was prevented when some kids grandma turned him in. Sounds like he was days away from attacking a school there. This world has gone to total dogshit.
http://q13fox.com/2018/02/14/court-docs-everett-student-flipped-coin-to-choose-school-for-thwarted-shooting/
Quote from: Steelgrave on February 14, 2018, 09:49:56 PM
Jesus Christ, when I was in school the worst you could expect was an ass whipping if you were on the wrong end of a fight. What the hell has happened to our society that these kind of shootings aren't uncommon anymore?
+1
As a reminder, there is a gun control thread. Please don't restart the discussion here in this thread.
http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=4115.0
Quote from: Steelgrave on February 14, 2018, 09:49:56 PM
Jesus Christ, when I was in school the worst you could expect was an ass whipping if you were on the wrong end of a fight. What the hell has happened to our society that these kind of shootings aren't uncommon anymore?
Thinking about this a little more, not only did we never think about someone coming to school and shooting people, you didn't think about someone attacking another person with a knife at school.
Some of the kids I went to school with would've needed someone to show them which end of a gun to point at the other guy. A knife, maybe. But it still would've been close.
We should all consider ourselves lucky we went to school before these crimes became more common.
The kid who did this was a known quantity, which, to me, makes it even more heinous.
Quote from: Gusington on February 15, 2018, 01:16:30 PM
We should all consider ourselves lucky we went to school before these crimes became more common.
The kid who did this was a known quantity, which, to me, makes it even more heinous.
The killer had made a statement on a video posted on social media that he was going to be a professional 'school shooter'. It was reported to the FBI, but they never figured out who it was, according to a statement made by the FBI this morning.
Now I'm seeing that his name was posted with the video link. Not sure if that's true or not.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2018/02/15/he-died-a-hero-assistant-football-coach-among-17-dead-in-florida-school-shooting/
What bothers me almost as much as the deaths, is how this evil SOB's name and face have been made household news. The media should not ever print the name or face of this sort of inexplicable evil. Let them either suicide, be killed, or executed after trial and die in utter and complete obscurity.
Remember the innocent souls and not the face of evil itself.
Quote from: airboy on February 16, 2018, 11:12:11 AM
What bothers me almost as much as the deaths, is how this evil SOB's name and face have been made household news. The media should not ever print the name or face of this sort of inexplicable evil. Let them either suicide, be killed, or executed after trial and die in utter and complete obscurity.
Remember the innocent souls and not the face of evil itself.
This, x100. >:(
No Notoriety in the News is a movement that was started by a victim of the Aurora Colorado theater shooting.
https://nonotoriety.com/home/ (https://nonotoriety.com/home/)
The FBI received a second tip on Jan 5, 2018 that the murder was making threats on line, but failed to investigate that warning.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/16/alleged-florida-school-shooter-nikolas-cruz-was-reported-to-fbi-cops-school-but-warning-signs-missed.html
^That is the most enraging thing to me.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/no-there-haven't-been-18-school-shootings-in-2018-that-number-is-flat-wrong/ar-BBJbqgy?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp
A Washington Post article;
QuoteNo, there haven't been 18 school shootings in 2018. That number is flat wrong.
The stunning number swept across the Internet within minutes of the news Wednesday that, yet again, another young man with another semiautomatic rifle had rampaged through a school, this time at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High in South Florida.
The figure originated with Everytown for Gun Safety, a nonprofit group, co-founded by Michael Bloomberg, that works to prevent gun violence and is most famous for its running tally of school shootings.
"This," the organization tweeted at 4:22 p.m. Wednesday, "is the 18th school shooting in the U.S. in 2018."
A tweet by Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) including the claim had been liked more than 45,000 times by Thursday evening, and one from political analyst Jeff Greenfield had cracked 126,000. New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio tweeted it, too, as did performers Cher and Alexander William and actors Misha Collins and Albert Brooks. News organizations — including MSNBC, ABC News, NBC News, CBS News, Time, MSN, the BBC, the New York Daily News and HuffPost — also used the number in their coverage. By Wednesday night, the top suggested search after typing "18" into Google was "18 school shootings in 2018."
It is a horrifying statistic. And it is wrong.
Everytown has long inflated its total by including incidents of gunfire that are not really school shootings. Take, for example, what it counted as the year's first: On the afternoon of Jan. 3, a 31-year-old man who had parked outside a Michigan elementary school called police to say he was armed and suicidal. Several hours later, he killed himself. The school, however, had been closed for seven months. There were no teachers. There were no students.
Also listed on the organization's site is an incident from Jan. 20, when at 1 a.m. a man was shot at a sorority event on the campus of Wake Forest University. A week later, as a basketball game was being played at a Michigan high school, someone fired several rounds from a gun in the parking lot. No one was injured, and it was past 8 p.m., well after classes had ended for the day, but Everytown still labeled it a school shooting.
Everytown explains on its website that it defines a school shooting as "any time a firearm discharges a live round inside a school building or on a school campus or grounds."
Sarah Tofte, Everytown's research director, calls the definition "crystal clear," noting that "every time a gun is discharged on school grounds it shatters the sense of safety" for students, parents and the community.
She said she and her colleagues work to reiterate those parameters in their public messaging. But the organization's tweets and Facebook posts seldom include that nuance. Just once in 2018, on Feb. 2, has the organization clearly explained its definition on Twitter. And Everytown rarely pushes its jarring totals on social media immediately after the more questionable shootings, as it does with those that are high-profile and undeniable, such as the Florida massacre or one from last month in Kentucky that left two students dead and at least 18 people injured.
After The Washington Post published this report, Everytown removed the Jan. 3 suicide outside the closed Michigan school.
The figures matter because gun-control activists use them as evidence in their fight for bans on assault weapons, stricter background checks and other legislation. Gun rights groups seize on the faults in the data to undermine those arguments and, similarly, present skewed figures of their own.
Gun violence is a crisis in the United States, especially for children, and a huge number — one that needs no exaggeration — have been affected by school shootings. An ongoing Washington Post analysis has found that more than 150,000 students attending at least 170 primary or secondary schools have experienced a shooting on campus since the Columbine High School massacre in 1999. That figure, which comes from a review of online archives, state and federal enrollment figures and news stories, is a conservative calculation and does not include dozens of suicides, accidents and after-school assaults that have also exposed youths to gunfire.
Five of Everytown's 18 school shootings listed for 2018 happened during school hours and resulted in any physical injury. Three others appeared to be intentional shootings but did not hurt anyone. Two more involved guns — one carried by a school police officer and the other by a licensed peace officer who ran a college club — that were unintentionally fired and, again, led to no injuries. At least seven of Everytown's 18 shootings took place outside normal school hours.
Shootings of any kind, of course, can be traumatic, regardless of whether they cause physical harm.
A month ago, for example, a group of college students were at a meeting of a criminal-justice club in Texas when a student accidentally fired a real gun, rather than a training weapon. The bullet went through a wall, then a window. Though no one was hurt, it left the student distraught.
Is that a school shooting, though? Yes, Everytown says.
"Since 2013," the organization says on its website, "there have been nearly 300 school shootings in America — an average of about one a week."
But since Everytown began its tracking, it has included these examples — in August 2013, a man shot on a Tennessee high school's property at 2 a.m.; in December 2014, a man shot in his car late one night and discovered the next day in a Pennsylvania elementary school's parking lot; in August 2015, a man who climbed atop the roof of an empty Texas school on a Sunday morning and fired sporadically; in January 2016, a man in an Indiana high school parking lot whose gun accidentally went off in his glove box, before any students had arrived on campus; in December 2017, two teens in Washington state who shot up a high school just before midnight on New Year's Eve, when the building was otherwise empty.
In 2015, The Post's Fact Checker awarded the group's figures — invoked by Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.) — four Pinocchios for misleading methodology.
Another database, the Gun Violence Archive, defines school shootings in much narrower terms, considering only those that take place during school hours or extracurricular activities.
Yet many journalists rely on Everytown's data. Post media critic Erik Wemple included the 18 figure in a column Wednesday night, and Michael Barbaro, host of the New York Times' podcast "The Daily," used the number to punctuate the end of his Thursday show.
Much like trying to define a mass shooting, deciding what is and is not a school shooting can be difficult. Some obviously fit the common-sense definition: Last month, a teen in Texas opened fire in a school cafeteria, injuring a 15-year-old girl.
Others that Everytown includes on its list, though, are trickier to categorize.
About 6 p.m. Jan. 10, a bullet probably fired from off campus hit the window of a building at a college in Southern California. No one was hurt, but students could still have been frightened. Classes were canceled, rooms were locked down and police searched campus for the gunman, who was never found.
On Feb. 5, a police officer was sitting on a bench in a Minnesota school gym when a third-grader accidentally pulled the trigger of his holstered pistol, firing a round into the floor. None of the four students in the gym were injured, but, again, the incident was probably scary.
What is not in dispute is gun violence's pervasiveness and its devastating impact on children. A recent study of World Health Organization data published in the American Journal of Medicine that found that, among high-income nations, 91 percent of children younger than 15 who were killed by bullets lived in the United States.
And the trends are only growing more dire.
On average, two dozen children are shot every day in the United States, and in 2016 more youths were killed by gunfire — 1,637 — than during any previous year this millennium.
listening to NPR talk about guns is like me describing how to build the atom smashing thingy at CERN.
I ran across a piece somewhere that stated 3% of the population in the US owns 100% of all the guns - it seemed highly suspect.
Quote from: MIGMaster on February 20, 2018, 08:51:55 PM
I ran across a piece somewhere that stated 3% of the population in the US owns 100% of all the guns - it seemed highly suspect.
Yeah, what're that 3% up to? Hmm...
grrrrrrr
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/21/business/media/youtube-conspiracy-video-parkland.html
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 22, 2018, 06:39:46 AM
grrrrrrr
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/21/business/media/youtube-conspiracy-video-parkland.html
With a little help from Russian troll bots maybe?
Quote from: Staggerwing on February 22, 2018, 07:58:47 AM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 22, 2018, 06:39:46 AM
grrrrrrr
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/21/business/media/youtube-conspiracy-video-parkland.html
With a little help from Russian troll bots maybe?
Ya think?
Quote from: mirth on February 22, 2018, 07:59:51 AM
Ya think?
I try not to do that... it only leads to trouble, fear, and madness.
WTF?!
Haven't seen this confirmed at other news sites but if true...
https://wsvn.com/news/local/sheriff-armed-officer-at-stoneman-douglas-never-went-in-during-shooting/ (https://wsvn.com/news/local/sheriff-armed-officer-at-stoneman-douglas-never-went-in-during-shooting/)
Yeah, I heard that earlier. The resource cop stayed outside for around 4 minutes until backup arrived. He was also old enough to retire so when the Sheriff was going to suspend him he opted for instant retirement instead.
This is a whole new level of wtf, including two other sheriff's deputies who were at the shooter's house repeatedly for a variety of calls that all led to nothing. I don't get it.
I hate to bring politics into this discussion but you know somebody would. ;D Broward County is a Liberal bastion here in Fla. They are a sanctuary city and ALWAYS vote democrat-- nothing wrong there. But they reject the whole 2nd Admenment thing and are very much against the whole 'Conceal & Carry', 'Stand-Your-Ground' laws etc. It doesn't surprise me that Law Enforcement is on a short leash there and if given the option to carry a weapon on school grounds most teachers there would refuse. Probably even sue to stop it. Only one armed guard at a school 46 acres in size and 3200 students in size reeks to me of the non-judgemental 'Gun-Free Zone' policy so out-of-date today. I bet if this kid tried to carry a Bible into school instead of an AR-15, he would've been tackled, hand-cuffed, and drug by his thumbs into the next county.
I know this may offend some, and I don't mean to. But this county is as Left Wing as it gets here in Fla. and their behavior supports that. Not the kids you understand. They are still victims and no one can blame them for this tragedy. My 2 cents. :peace:
Quote from: Gusington on February 23, 2018, 09:15:38 AM
This is a whole new level of wtf, including two other sheriff's deputies who were at the shooter's house repeatedly for a variety of calls that all led to nothing. I don't get it.
He might not have actually committed an arrestable offense. Can't really blame the cops for not busting him if there was nothing to nab him for. The deputy who didn't go in, though...that's not a good look at all.
I don't know...there were about 20 calls from different members of the shooters family, people who knew him, who said he was close to exploding and a true threat...and that he was armed.
Quote from: Gusington on February 23, 2018, 08:41:53 PM
I don't know...there were about 20 calls from different members of the shooters family, people who knew him, who said he was close to exploding and a true threat...and that he was armed.
True, but did he do anything that he could actually be taken into custody for?
Is there really any comparison between deputies conducting home visits that may or may not have provided enough to warrant further scrutiny, and an armed cop choosing to stay outside a school while shots were being fired inside? I cannot pretend to know what was going through that cop's mind but I also cannot help but wonder how it could have gone, had a different cop been on duty at that school that day.
^^There are now some reports that there were FOUR deputies who wouldn't go in.
I can somewhat understand one, since a cop is typically not going to be trained to just wade in to a situation on his own that he doesn't know the extent of. But FOUR? If that's true, it's utterly indefensible.
Four deputies? Haven't heard that yet.
There was a lot of info on Cruz that both the local sheriff and the FBI had as well as social services and the people charged with taking care of him.
How he was ever able to acquire firearms is beyond me.
Quote from: Gusington on February 23, 2018, 11:02:12 PM
Four deputies? Haven't heard that yet.
There was a lot of info on Cruz that both the local sheriff and the FBI had as well as social services and the people charged with taking care of him.
How he was ever able to acquire firearms is beyond me.
Yeah, that's the problem part.
Quote from: Arctic Blast on February 23, 2018, 10:25:50 PM
^^There are now some reports that there were FOUR deputies who wouldn't go in.
I can somewhat understand one, since a cop is typically not going to be trained to just wade in to a situation on his own that he doesn't know the extent of. But FOUR? If that's true, it's utterly indefensible.
depends on the SOP ordered?
a decade or more ago German police changed SOP after a school shooting, IIRC it was the Erfurt event
before generic patrol car cops first at the scene had order to wait for specialist cops (doesn't had to be full blown SWAT unit but cops with a special training and a certain number of those before going in)
Now the SOP is: the first patrol car cops (usually 2 officers) at the scene go in immediately and 'aggressive'
...even so those cops only get a 30 hours of special training (including hand to hand) with evaluation a year, included are only 6h on the shooting range (of course a high tech range police shooting cinema with situations unfolding)
in Germany Police is a federal state thing, so numbers may wary a bit from state to state
Quote from: Gusington on February 23, 2018, 11:02:12 PM
Four deputies? Haven't heard that yet.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies/index.html?sr=twCNNp022318parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies0436PMStory&CNNPolitics=Tw
A shocking expose on the Broward County Sheriff's Dept and school system, and how their backroom deals to pad numbers have affected their behavior:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/966854507744374784.html
Quote
1. <..> People don't understand how Broward County School Sheriff Officers operate. I'll explain.
2. I spent about 18 months in 2012, 2013 and 2014 investigating Broward and Miami-Dade school policies and how those policies transfer to law enforcement practices.
3. My interest was initially accidental. I discovered an untold story of massive scale and consequence as a result of initial research into Trayvon Martin and his High School life.
4. What I stumbled upon was a Broward County law enforcement system in a state of conflict. The Broward County School Board and District Superintendent, entered into a political agreement with Broward County Law enforcement officials to stop arresting students for crimes.
5. The motive was simple. The school system administrators wanted to "improve their statistics" and gain state and federal grant money for improvements therein.
6. So police officials, the very highest officials of law enforcement (Sheriff and Police Chiefs), entered into a plan.
(CONTINUED..)
Lots of documents and info at the link.
Bureaucrats.. ::) :knuppel2:
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 24, 2018, 07:35:33 AM
Quote from: Gusington on February 23, 2018, 11:02:12 PM
Four deputies? Haven't heard that yet.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies/index.html?sr=twCNNp022318parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies0436PMStory&CNNPolitics=Tw
Holy shit. How do you stay outside while kids are being slaughtered?
Cheque cashes the same whether you go in or not.
Doesn't being in a building negate a lot of the advantages that an AR-15 has over a pistol.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fla-shooting-survivor-cops-dont-want-to-face-down-ar-15s/ar-BBJxlH6?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp
From The Hill
QuoteA student at the Parkland, Fla. high school where 17 people were killed in a mass shooting last week told MSNBC on Saturday that police officers should not be judged for not wanting to face down an attacked armed with an AR-15 when armed with handguns.
In an interview on MSNBC, student David Hogg defended Scot Peterson, the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School school resource officer and Broward County Sheriff's deputy accused by President Trump and local law enforcement of not entering the building during the shooting.
Three other officers from the same department were also reported by CNN to have arrived on scene and taken cover behind their vehicles before deputies from a neighboring department arrived.
"He just like every other police officer out there at heart is a good person. He didn't take action in this event, and I can't explain why...there are no words to explain why he wouldn't take action to take out this individual, but I think it's a good example of if he didn't take action and four others didn't, I mean, who does?" Hogg said.
"Who wants to go down the barrel of an AR-15, even with a glock? And I know that's what these police officers are supposed to do, but they're people too," he added.
Peterson has been the subject of intense criticism in the days following last Wednesday's shooting, after Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel told reporters at a press conference this week that Peterson was outside the building but on campus for the duration of the attack, but "didn't go in."
"Scot Peterson was absolutely on campus through this entire event. He was armed. He was in uniform," Israel said at a press conference.
"After seeing video, witness statements and Scot Peterson's very own statement, I decided this morning to suspend [him] without pay pending an internal investigation," he continued. "We're not going to disclose the video at this time, and we may never disclose the video, depending on the prosecution and the criminal case," Israel said. "But what I saw was a deputy arrive at the west side of building 12, take up a position - and he never went in."
Peterson's alleged conduct was noted by Trump on Friday, who told reporters that the officer didn't have the "courage" to confront the shooter.
"When it came time to get in there and do something, he didn't have the courage or something happened, but he certainly did a poor job.
There's no question about that," Trump said of Peterson.
"He didn't turn out to be too good, I'll tell you that. Turned out to be not good, not a credit to law enforcement, that I can tell you," he added.
Quote from: OJsDad on February 24, 2018, 10:55:25 PM
Doesn't being in a building negate a lot of the advantages that an AR-15 has over a pistol.
depend on the building in question
... if it has long halls, a big atrium, wide open stair cases and areas of approach with no cover its bad, and the rifle may have some aiming stuff mounted in addition.
it also depends on the opponent.
i would not like to go against a battle hardend Iraq/Stan vet, who had seen it all... in opposition to a student who just got the rifle (in case of Germany from that obscure Darknet) and all his falls 'tactical' knowledge from Call of Duty, some paintball and a little softair play... difference between cover and concealment is a treachery bitch in RL
Quote from: mirth on February 24, 2018, 12:48:06 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 24, 2018, 07:35:33 AM
Quote from: Gusington on February 23, 2018, 11:02:12 PM
Four deputies? Haven't heard that yet.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies/index.html?sr=twCNNp022318parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies0436PMStory&CNNPolitics=Tw
Holy shit. How do you stay outside while kids are being slaughtered?
This thing wouldn't have happened if there'd been someone trained in the use of firearms onsite to protect the students.
Quote from: Father Ted on February 25, 2018, 06:18:16 PM
This thing wouldn't have happened if there'd been someone trained in the use of firearms onsite to protect the students.
There was. The SRO was trained, armed, and on-site. He did nothing.
I don't think it's an issue of basic firearms training or not, I think that the cop in question let his adverse situation training skills atrophy during the years he was a school resource officer. Day-in and day-out he was probably doing nothing more than greeting kids and giving talks with the occasional hallway fight to break up. When the moment came he locked up in confusion and doubt.
This is my main concern with arming teachers. To be effective in a crisis they would need to constantly challenge their own fight-or-flight instincts through some kind of semi-monthly simulation training similar to what is offered to soldiers and cops on the beat- training that the school officer had also probably neglected. If we have armed teachers they need to be more like air marshals than regular educators who happen to be armed.
^Great post.
Quote from: Staggerwing on February 25, 2018, 06:47:31 PM
I don't think it's an issue of basic firearms training or not, I think that the cop in question let his adverse situation training skills atrophy during the years he was a school resource officer. Day-in and day-out he was probably doing nothing more than greeting kids and giving talks with the occasional hallway fight to break up. When the moment came he locked up in confusion and doubt.
This is my main concern with arming teachers. To be effective in a crisis they would need to constantly challenge their own fight-or-flight instincts through some kind of semi-monthly simulation training similar to what is offered to soldiers and cops on the beat- training that the school officer had also probably neglected. If we have armed teachers they need to be more like air marshals than regular educators who happen to be armed.
There's a difference between being a teacher inside a classroom with a gun man coming to get you versus a cop that's outside deciding not to go in. If that teacher has a gun, whether they've gone through all of the training you describe, they're going to use that gun.
Also, at the end of the day, people are relying on the police to be there when they are needed. We all know that cops cannot be everywhere all the time, but when they are, we expect them to put them selves in harms way to protect the people they swore to protect. Not hide outside and retire to collect their retirement check.
^There's no way to know if any of what you said is true until the moment occurs.
Quote from: OJsDad on February 25, 2018, 09:14:55 PM
Quote from: Staggerwing on February 25, 2018, 06:47:31 PM
I don't think it's an issue of basic firearms training or not, I think that the cop in question let his adverse situation training skills atrophy during the years he was a school resource officer. Day-in and day-out he was probably doing nothing more than greeting kids and giving talks with the occasional hallway fight to break up. When the moment came he locked up in confusion and doubt.
This is my main concern with arming teachers. To be effective in a crisis they would need to constantly challenge their own fight-or-flight instincts through some kind of semi-monthly simulation training similar to what is offered to soldiers and cops on the beat- training that the school officer had also probably neglected. If we have armed teachers they need to be more like air marshals than regular educators who happen to be armed.
There's a difference between being a teacher inside a classroom with a gun man coming to get you versus a cop that's outside deciding not to go in. If that teacher has a gun, whether they've gone through all of the training you describe, they're going to use that gun.
Also, at the end of the day, people are relying on the police to be there when they are needed. We all know that cops cannot be everywhere all the time, but when they are, we expect them to put them selves in harms way to protect the people they swore to protect. Not hide outside and retire to collect their retirement check.
We shouldn't expect police to always come charging to the rescue just because they are armed. The USSC ruled that they are not obligated to come save your life with their weapon(s). Apparently those are for self-protection.
If any of us were in the shoes of a teacher, or even a student, cornered in a room by some mass murderer with a gun, I'd bet nearly all of us would wish we had armed ourselves beforehand, at that moment. The Columbine shooting is a perfect example of kids & teachers cornered and helpless in their rooms while a couple killers just leisurely walked around shooting them. While hordes of police were outside. It's not the only one.
It's obvious that the current teenage murderer fad for racking up a large body count, and getting your newly infamous name & face plastered across worldwide news for quite awhile, is to target a "gun free zone" school. It's also obvious that the mental health issues driving such behavior is increasing, and the attacks won't stop no matter how much we think we can predict and stop them beforehand. It's impossible. Especially when law enforcement fails at enforcing the laws already on the books.
Sorry guys, but the only solid solution I see is for people to take their own precautions. Could just be my Libertarian streak that I default to, but the saying that "the cops only show up to clean up the mess afterward" is often true. Plan accordingly because we don't live in a
Minority Report world where future crimes can be seen.
Quote from: Gusington on February 25, 2018, 09:47:56 PM
^There's no way to know if any of what you said is true until the moment occurs.
Fact; at least 2 staff members gave their lives trying to protect their students.
Fact; at least 1 and perhaps as many as 4 police failed to enter that building while there was still shooting going on.
At this point, I'm in leaning in favor of allowing teachers to carry into their classrooms if they choose to.
Again, there's no guarantee that an armed teacher will always act the way those two mentioned above did. And there's no guarantee that trained police officers will fail to act the way the four cited above failed.
In life, there are no guarantees. There is only planning and preparation to minimize the pucker factor.
Quote from: Staggerwing on February 25, 2018, 06:47:31 PM
I don't think it's an issue of basic firearms training or not, I think that the cop in question let his adverse situation training skills atrophy during the years he was a school resource officer. Day-in and day-out he was probably doing nothing more than greeting kids and giving talks with the occasional hallway fight to break up. When the moment came he locked up in confusion and doubt.
This is my main concern with arming teachers. To be effective in a crisis they would need to constantly challenge their own fight-or-flight instincts through some kind of semi-monthly simulation training similar to what is offered to soldiers and cops on the beat- training that the school officer had also probably neglected. If we have armed teachers they need to be more like air marshals than regular educators who happen to be armed.
I work in a stupid "gun free zone" every day. It is insane. I can have all the firepower I want in the parking lot, yet the "magic gun free sticker" protects me on Campus.
The Alabama Legislature is considering a bill to allow teachers to voluntarily take 40 hours of training and a psyc exam to carry concealed in school. Having someone with a gun who is willing to use it (instead of certain death), even if they are just in a defensive crouch with lots of students behind them, is much better than a stupid gun free zone.
Nobody is expecting an armed teacher to aggressively seek out a shooter. But a shooter who knows that someone could be armed may deter evil murderers or strike them down before they kill even more people.
Quote from: airboy on February 26, 2018, 10:26:52 AM
Nobody is expecting an armed teacher to aggressively seek out a shooter. But a shooter who knows that someone could be armed may deter evil murderers or strike them down before they kill even more people.
And this carries the day for me in the "arm teachers or not" argument. Huddled in a classroom, helpless, hoping the crazy bastard with a gun passes you and your students by versus huddled in the classroom, firearm at the ready, knowing you at least have the opportunity to defend yourself and your charges should that same monster choose your door....
Scott Beigel, Aaron Feis and Chris Hixon died trying to protect those kids. If any or all of them had been armed, who knows what a difference that might have made?
Could it not also make the armed teachers more of a specific target?
Quote from: Gusington on February 26, 2018, 10:37:02 AM
Could it not also make the armed teachers more of a specific target?
If the gunman were targeting people who were armed, he would have started with the school safety officer. I love ya, Gus, but that makes no sense.
^Nor does thinking a mass murderer is thinking logically, Dad.
I very much doubt it would be public knowledge as to which teachers or admins were armed or not, so I'm not sure how your scenario would unfold. And most of these monsters are cowards at heart, wanting to inflate their body count as much as possible before turning the gun on themselves when confronted by police. This last shooter (who I won't dignify by using his name) is one of the very few to be captured alive. Statistically, most kill themselves.
Quote from: Staggerwing on February 25, 2018, 06:47:31 PM
I don't think it's an issue of basic firearms training or not, I think that the cop in question let his adverse situation training skills atrophy during the years he was a school resource officer. Day-in and day-out he was probably doing nothing more than greeting kids and giving talks with the occasional hallway fight to break up. When the moment came he locked up in confusion and doubt.
This is my main concern with arming teachers. To be effective in a crisis they would need to constantly challenge their own fight-or-flight instincts through some kind of semi-monthly simulation training similar to what is offered to soldiers and cops on the beat- training that the school officer had also probably neglected. If we have armed teachers they need to be more like air marshals than regular educators who happen to be armed.
An additional concern for me would be that teachers would then be judged - much like this officer was - with their lack of action when in fact there may be quite a few teachers that actually don't want to shoot people.
You know - it is a thing - some people just don't want to shoot people. Even if those people are shooting people. It's not in everyone's DNA.
Quote from: Steelgrave on February 26, 2018, 11:00:37 AM
I very much doubt it would be public knowledge as to which teachers or admins were armed or not, so I'm not sure how your scenario would unfold.
...has it been a while since you were in school? ;) Because, regardless of the pros and cons of arming teachers/staff, scuttlebutt would congregate pretty quickly around who was armed, especially if there are official certification and training upkeep requirements. Some of that might be educated guesses (and so mistaken, right or wrong in either direction), but kids (and parents) WOULD be working out who was armed.
So I wouldn't base any strategy on the armed staff being unknown to shooters who are students at the school, or who are connected to students. Randos off the street, sure; but not students.
:DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD
http://wncn.com/2018/02/26/trump-says-he-would-have-confronted-florida-shooter/
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba)
Quote from: JudgeDredd on February 26, 2018, 12:30:26 PM
Quote from: Staggerwing on February 25, 2018, 06:47:31 PM
I don't think it's an issue of basic firearms training or not, I think that the cop in question let his adverse situation training skills atrophy during the years he was a school resource officer. Day-in and day-out he was probably doing nothing more than greeting kids and giving talks with the occasional hallway fight to break up. When the moment came he locked up in confusion and doubt.
This is my main concern with arming teachers. To be effective in a crisis they would need to constantly challenge their own fight-or-flight instincts through some kind of semi-monthly simulation training similar to what is offered to soldiers and cops on the beat- training that the school officer had also probably neglected. If we have armed teachers they need to be more like air marshals than regular educators who happen to be armed.
An additional concern for me would be that teachers would then be judged - much like this officer was - with their lack of action when in fact there may be quite a few teachers that actually don't want to shoot people.
You know - it is a thing - some people just don't want to shoot people. Even if those people are shooting people. It's not in everyone's DNA.
^ I agree that some people will not pull the trigger on another human being. But I think that the odds increase when you are protecting others.
All of the bills make it voluntary, with a lot of training and a psyc check for a teacher to be armed in school. So my guess is the ones who choose to take the training are more likely to be able to pull the trigger.
All I can say as a person in a sticky note "gun free zone," please give the teachers the choice to adequately defend themselves and others. Rational training, rational psyc evaluation, and give us the option.
If my school gave us the option, I would buy a handgun and carry it to work. I don't need it at home (I prefer shotguns and have shot 10,000 rounds through several of mine).
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 26, 2018, 01:04:30 PM
:DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD
http://wncn.com/2018/02/26/trump-says-he-would-have-confronted-florida-shooter/
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba)
I'm beginning to think I might have drank less during a Hilly presidency.
^That is a startling admission!
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 26, 2018, 01:04:30 PM
http://wncn.com/2018/02/26/trump-says-he-would-have-confronted-florida-shooter/
Next up: A shirtless Trump riding a tiger.
Quote from: Steelgrave on February 26, 2018, 01:19:27 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 26, 2018, 01:04:30 PM
http://wncn.com/2018/02/26/trump-says-he-would-have-confronted-florida-shooter/
Next up: A shirtless Trump riding a tiger.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aarcentral.com%2Fpics%2Fvomit.gif&hash=f8c0cec79f834c3558ced52ccf681c80fdf7c2e4)
Now I know we're doomed.
I hear what Airboy and Steelie are saying.
We just can't count on the arming of teachers to be fool proof. And to be perfectly honest if we can't count on officers who are specifically trained to counter this exact situation - then I am at a loss.
Quote from: mirth on February 26, 2018, 01:12:23 PM
I'm beginning to think I might have drank less during a Hilly presidency.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aarcentral.com%2Fpics%2Fibmg.gif&hash=456346306069561308e2d244a367dd4b91b05ff0)
^Exactly
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 26, 2018, 01:04:30 PM
:DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD
http://wncn.com/2018/02/26/trump-says-he-would-have-confronted-florida-shooter/
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba)
Not really as funny as when you read another source on this (http://www.bbc.com/news/43202075). And it highlights how information is skewed to fit someone's narrative. This is why I get news from multiple sources.
From the article:
"I really believe I'd run in there even if I didn't have a weapon," the president told a group of state governors gathered at the White House.
Mr Trump also said it was "disgusting" that officers reportedly did not confront the suspect on 14 February.
The massacre was the second-deadliest shooting at a US school.
"I think most of the people in this room would have done that, too," said the US president on Monday of his assertion that he would have rushed into the school.
He added: "You never know until you're tested."
I read the whole thing.
He's completely daft.
He would've tripped over his bone spurs in the parking lot, landed with his tongue on someone's mom, and blamed it all on CNN.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aarcentral.com%2Femoti%2Fiagree.gif&hash=1e1dfa1e2728e13d2185c0987637afa24f90a59a)
Quote from: JudgeDredd on February 26, 2018, 12:30:26 PM
Quote from: Staggerwing on February 25, 2018, 06:47:31 PM
I don't think it's an issue of basic firearms training or not, I think that the cop in question let his adverse situation training skills atrophy during the years he was a school resource officer. Day-in and day-out he was probably doing nothing more than greeting kids and giving talks with the occasional hallway fight to break up. When the moment came he locked up in confusion and doubt.
This is my main concern with arming teachers. To be effective in a crisis they would need to constantly challenge their own fight-or-flight instincts through some kind of semi-monthly simulation training similar to what is offered to soldiers and cops on the beat- training that the school officer had also probably neglected. If we have armed teachers they need to be more like air marshals than regular educators who happen to be armed.
An additional concern for me would be that teachers would then be judged - much like this officer was - with their lack of action when in fact there may be quite a few teachers that actually don't want to shoot people.
You know - it is a thing - some people just don't want to shoot people. Even if those people are shooting people. It's not in everyone's DNA.
That's their perogative to do or not do. However, it's better to have something and not need it than require something and not have it. When you're cornered by an armed nut.
I had someone go complete emotional response to some teachers being allowed to arm themselves in my state. He acted as if the teachers were all just gonna be having pistol showdowns in the hallways, at high noon. ::) I wasn't terribly surprised, as his political views are almost always based on emotional reaction. After the knee-jerking eventually cools down, and I've had enough liquor, I'll try injecting some calm logic into a debate.
Until then, it's apparent that some more.. impulsive.. people have been led to believe that having a gun convinces people to go on murder sprees. Which is ridiculous. I blame the misinformation and misunderstandings on the sensationalist media, per usual. Listening to that guy was a perfect example of how effective they can be when taken at face value.
Quote from: mirth on February 26, 2018, 01:20:55 PM
Quote from: Steelgrave on February 26, 2018, 01:19:27 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 26, 2018, 01:04:30 PM
http://wncn.com/2018/02/26/trump-says-he-would-have-confronted-florida-shooter/
Next up: A shirtless Trump riding a tiger.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aarcentral.com%2Fpics%2Fvomit.gif&hash=f8c0cec79f834c3558ced52ccf681c80fdf7c2e4)
Could've been: a shirtless Hilary riding a tiger.
YOUR VOMITCOM HAS NEVER FELT SO INADEQUATE!
Quote from: Nefaro on February 26, 2018, 03:01:27 PMI blame the misinformation and misunderstandings on the sensationalist media, per usual. Listening to that guy was a perfect example of how effective they can be when taken at face value.
Would this person think Trump is-or-could-be literally Hitler, and also that all firepower should be immediately confiscated by and restricted to the federal government?
Quote from: bbmike on February 26, 2018, 01:37:42 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 26, 2018, 01:04:30 PM
:DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD
http://wncn.com/2018/02/26/trump-says-he-would-have-confronted-florida-shooter/
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba)
Not really as funny as when you read another source on this (http://www.bbc.com/news/43202075). And it highlights how information is skewed to fit someone's narrative. This is why I get news from multiple sources.
From the article:
"I really believe I'd run in there even if I didn't have a weapon," the president told a group of state governors gathered at the White House.
Mr Trump also said it was "disgusting" that officers reportedly did not confront the suspect on 14 February.
The massacre was the second-deadliest shooting at a US school.
"I think most of the people in this room would have done that, too," said the US president on Monday of his assertion that he would have rushed into the school.
He added: "You never know until you're tested."
It's not really about the source or the full text. It's just that anyone who said that or something similar as to how they think they would have reacted in similar circumstances would naturally be perceived as a dick. Trump is a dick but if Mickey mouse had said that I would have thought him a dick.
Personally I think most people in that room would not have done that. Trump most especially not. It takes a special breed of man/woman to run towards gunfire armed or not and I doubt outside of his secret service agents there were many in the room who were of that ilk.
Quote from: airboy on February 26, 2018, 01:08:29 PM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on February 26, 2018, 12:30:26 PM
Quote from: Staggerwing on February 25, 2018, 06:47:31 PM
I don't think it's an issue of basic firearms training or not, I think that the cop in question let his adverse situation training skills atrophy during the years he was a school resource officer. Day-in and day-out he was probably doing nothing more than greeting kids and giving talks with the occasional hallway fight to break up. When the moment came he locked up in confusion and doubt.
This is my main concern with arming teachers. To be effective in a crisis they would need to constantly challenge their own fight-or-flight instincts through some kind of semi-monthly simulation training similar to what is offered to soldiers and cops on the beat- training that the school officer had also probably neglected. If we have armed teachers they need to be more like air marshals than regular educators who happen to be armed.
An additional concern for me would be that teachers would then be judged - much like this officer was - with their lack of action when in fact there may be quite a few teachers that actually don't want to shoot people.
You know - it is a thing - some people just don't want to shoot people. Even if those people are shooting people. It's not in everyone's DNA.
^ I agree that some people will not pull the trigger on another human being. But I think that the odds increase when you are protecting others.
All of the bills make it voluntary, with a lot of training and a psyc check for a teacher to be armed in school. So my guess is the ones who choose to take the training are more likely to be able to pull the trigger.
All I can say as a person in a sticky note "gun free zone," please give the teachers the choice to adequately defend themselves and others. Rational training, rational psyc evaluation, and give us the option.
If my school gave us the option, I would buy a handgun and carry it to work. I don't need it at home (I prefer shotguns and have shot 10,000 rounds through several of mine).
Sorry airboy but you mentioned psyc test there so I'll follow with this. Isn't the main issue about the types of people who are being able to get guns and therefore gun control is seen as the solution as opposed to banning their sale? This guy was brought to the attention of relative authorities who might have seen some warning signs.
What happens when a teacher loses it? It can be a very stressful job...some smart ass kids taking the piss out some teacher who can't control the class as other teachers might. So he had a psyc test 6 months ago. 2 months ago. last week. he missed his last test...and he snaps. What then? Is that the next story?
What about kids who decide they're going to carry for their safety? Against a pupil or even a teacher who's showing signs of losing it?
I'm not at all convinced giving teachers weapons is the answer - not that I need to be convinced being a Brit - I'm not preaching - just looking from the outside in
The rest isn't just for airboy - it's discussion in general...
I'll concede that getting rid of guns is not going to stop bad things happening. But please at least consider conceding that more guns is not the answer.
The only thing to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun is bullshit. Sure, it's harder to stop a guy with a gun if you don't have one - but it's not the only thing that can stop a shooter.
Can I ask the Americans here - are you not somehow saddened (ashamed maybe?) that your kids are going to school and having to be taught how to survive a rogue shooter coming into the school? What do you think that does to a kids head?
Kids need to be protected from that shit - and that doesn't mean arming teachers. More security measures around schools perhaps? What are the security measures like around school? Are there security gates to go through? Obviously there's guards - how many guards? Is more guards an answer? What about fencing? Did this guy just walk in? Were there any security measures at that school? Is there more that could be done before you start putting weapons in the classroom? Isn't that as knee jerk as "ban guns"?
Quote from: Zulu1966 on February 27, 2018, 03:32:34 AM
Quote from: bbmike on February 26, 2018, 01:37:42 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 26, 2018, 01:04:30 PM
:DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD
http://wncn.com/2018/02/26/trump-says-he-would-have-confronted-florida-shooter/
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba)
Not really as funny as when you read another source on this (http://www.bbc.com/news/43202075). And it highlights how information is skewed to fit someone's narrative. This is why I get news from multiple sources.
From the article:
"I really believe I'd run in there even if I didn't have a weapon," the president told a group of state governors gathered at the White House.
Mr Trump also said it was "disgusting" that officers reportedly did not confront the suspect on 14 February.
The massacre was the second-deadliest shooting at a US school.
"I think most of the people in this room would have done that, too," said the US president on Monday of his assertion that he would have rushed into the school.
He added: "You never know until you're tested."
It's not really about the source or the full text. It's just that anyone who said that or something similar as to how they think they would have reacted in similar circumstances would naturally be perceived as a dick. Trump is a dick but if Mickey mouse had said that I would have thought him a dick.
Personally I think most people in that room would not have done that. Trump most especially not. It takes a special breed of man/woman to run towards gunfire armed or not and I doubt outside of his secret service agents there were many in the room who were of that ilk.
Yes, it is about the source and the LACK of full text when what's being reported doesn't include the whole story. I 100% agree with you that most people, especially Trump, would not run towards gunfire. I get it that Mickey Mouse would make a better President. But if you actually watched and listened to what Trump said you would see that even he questioned himself. Even the part I bolded from BBC wasn't correct. He didn't 'add' that line, he said it along with the "I believe I would have..." line. People want to stick their heads in the sand but there really is media bias all across the board. It's this kind of reporting that leads to charges of fake news.
Quote from: JasonPratt on February 26, 2018, 12:45:12 PM
Quote from: Steelgrave on February 26, 2018, 11:00:37 AM
I very much doubt it would be public knowledge as to which teachers or admins were armed or not, so I'm not sure how your scenario would unfold.
...has it been a while since you were in school? ;) Because, regardless of the pros and cons of arming teachers/staff, scuttlebutt would congregate pretty quickly around who was armed, especially if there are official certification and training upkeep requirements. Some of that might be educated guesses (and so mistaken, right or wrong in either direction), but kids (and parents) WOULD be working out who was armed.
So I wouldn't base any strategy on the armed staff being unknown to shooters who are students at the school, or who are connected to students. Randos off the street, sure; but not students.
Who is armed is not public information. In other words, along with other safety plans and policies, a person from the general public or the media can demand to see it. That won't stop people from guessing, but they will not learn about it from any records kept.
We had our school board meeting last night. This was of course discussed.
1. We have a part time School Resource Officer. He, along with some other deputies that live in the district have made 180's on arming staff. They've gone from opposing to believing that we should.
2. We recieved a packet last night, explain laws on allowing staff to be armed, a letter from the state AG green lighting the arming of staff, differences in training for concealed carry vs law enforcement training, and lot of other common questions answered.
3. We have first aid kits at school, but we're looking at getting a trauma kit also. We have a local ambulance service, but it's an on call service. Meaning the EMT's are not at the station. The nearest full time ambulance is at 10 mins away.
4. Door blocking devices are being installed on every interior door in every school in the county, public and parochial. These devices can with stand 16,000 psi. Our students and staff and being trained that, during a lock down, if the fire alarm goes off, they are to stay put with the door secure, unless there is an actual fire or smoke in the room they're in.
Embarrassed about all this? No. It's a horrible situation. And I personally don't hide my kids from it, although I want to sometimes. I talk to them as best I can about it, apologize for the world being so f'd up, and we keep calm, carry on, and have a stiff upper lip about it all. I also tell them that the news is designed to make them scared and to use their brains and that they have a better chance of getting struck by lightning than getting shot in a school massacre.
That doesn't mean that this whole thing does not make me want to vomit, every day. But I don't show the kids that.
MICKEY 2020
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 26, 2018, 01:04:30 PM
:DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD
http://wncn.com/2018/02/26/trump-says-he-would-have-confronted-florida-shooter/
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba)
:DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD
https://www.duffelblog.com/2018/02/trump-awards-self-medal-honor-hypothetically-saving-everyone-school-shooting/
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba)
gotta love TDB
Florida school shooting: Officer Scot Peterson defends actions
Broward Sheriff's Office had trained him to seek cover and assess the situation in the event of outdoor gunfire, his lawyer said.
Mr Peterson did so, and then told the sheriff's office he had heard shots, prompting a "Code Red" lockdown of the school campus.
When police arrived, he told them he thought the gunman was outside - a belief backed up by "radio transmissions [which] indicated that there was a gunshot victim in the area of the football field," Mr Peterson said, according to his lawyer.
Quote from: bbmike on February 27, 2018, 06:29:52 AM
Quote from: Zulu1966 on February 27, 2018, 03:32:34 AM
Quote from: bbmike on February 26, 2018, 01:37:42 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on February 26, 2018, 01:04:30 PM
:DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD
http://wncn.com/2018/02/26/trump-says-he-would-have-confronted-florida-shooter/
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba) (https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbayonetgames.com%2Fblogart%2F%2Froflmao.gif&hash=4e113dadfb572c523d8f7bdd70d6850ddf356eba)
Not really as funny as when you read another source on this (http://www.bbc.com/news/43202075). And it highlights how information is skewed to fit someone's narrative. This is why I get news from multiple sources.
From the article:
"I really believe I'd run in there even if I didn't have a weapon," the president told a group of state governors gathered at the White House.
Mr Trump also said it was "disgusting" that officers reportedly did not confront the suspect on 14 February.
The massacre was the second-deadliest shooting at a US school.
"I think most of the people in this room would have done that, too," said the US president on Monday of his assertion that he would have rushed into the school.
He added: "You never know until you're tested."
It's not really about the source or the full text. It's just that anyone who said that or something similar as to how they think they would have reacted in similar circumstances would naturally be perceived as a dick. Trump is a dick but if Mickey mouse had said that I would have thought him a dick.
Personally I think most people in that room would not have done that. Trump most especially not. It takes a special breed of man/woman to run towards gunfire armed or not and I doubt outside of his secret service agents there were many in the room who were of that ilk.
Yes, it is about the source and the LACK of full text when what's being reported doesn't include the whole story. I 100% agree with you that most people, especially Trump, would not run towards gunfire. I get it that Mickey Mouse would make a better President. But if you actually watched and listened to what Trump said you would see that even he questioned himself. Even the part I bolded from BBC wasn't correct. He didn't 'add' that line, he said it along with the "I believe I would have..." line. People want to stick their heads in the sand but there really is media bias all across the board. It's this kind of reporting that leads to charges of fake news.
Yes. And I take your point, but what I don't take is the.contention that this kind of thing somehow only started with trump. Which seems to be his contention if not yours. I think half the issue with trump is that he is so palpably a dick even outside of his politics that those who don't like him actually hate him. He is also more than guilty of contributing to the whole fake news thing as much as he is sometimes a subject of ... if not completely fake tailored to show him in a bad light.
My point was about this particular thing is that personally I would steer away from painting myself as a hero in the absence of any realistic prospect of me ever being in a position of proving it.. whether or not I included other people in that assertion. Regardless of the full text of what he said I just think it's something you don't do. Much as I wouldn't comment on whether something a soldier in Iraq did or didn't do it's just bad form yo put yourself there and say you would have acted with more courage than someone else.
It's not really connected to him being president or fake news just an example of the high opinion he has of himself and how he is arrogant enough to say it.
I didn't mean Mickey mouse in the context of president more in relation to any Joe soap saying it would have the same opinion of him.
Quote from: Pete Dero on February 27, 2018, 09:26:48 AM
Florida school shooting: Officer Scot Peterson defends actions
Broward Sheriff's Office had trained him to seek cover and assess the situation in the event of outdoor gunfire, his lawyer said.
Mr Peterson did so, and then told the sheriff's office he had heard shots, prompting a "Code Red" lockdown of the school campus.
When police arrived, he told them he thought the gunman was outside - a belief backed up by "radio transmissions [which] indicated that there was a gunshot victim in the area of the football field," Mr Peterson said, according to his lawyer.
This was said through his lawyer. Funny how he would not be interviewed by anyone plus he resigned.
According to reports when a nearby city's cops arrived there were 4 Broward County deputies outside the building.
I hated it when Obama would interject himself into local police matters - which he did with incendiary effect multiple times during his time in office.
I also hate it when Trump does it, but there is no incendiary effect because it does not rile up tensions because he is so unbelievable.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/we-studied-thousands-of-anonymous-posts-about-the-parkland-attack---and-found-a-conspiracy-in-the-making/2018/02/27/04a856be-1b20-11e8-b2d9-08e748f892c0_story.html?utm_term=.b91577df0dfc
QuoteForty-seven minutes after news broke of a high school shooting in Parkland, Fla., the posters on the anonymous chat board 8chan had devised a plan to bend the public narrative to their own designs: "Start looking for [Jewish] numerology and crisis actors."
The voices from this dark corner of the Internet quickly coalesced around a plan of attack: Use details gleaned from news reports and other sources to push false information about one of America's deadliest school shootings.
The posters on anonymous forums, a cauldron of far-right extremist politics, over the next few hours speculated about the shooter's ethnicity ("Hope the kid isn't white") and cracked off-color jokes. They began crafting false explanations about the massacre, including that actors were posing as students, in hopes of blunting what they correctly guessed would be a revived interest in gun control.
The success of this effort would soon illustrate how lies that thrive on raucous online platforms increasingly shape public understanding of major events. As much of the nation mourned, the story concocted on anonymous chat rooms soon burst onto YouTube, Twitter and Facebook, where the theories surged in popularity.
Amid corporate efforts to beat back the falsehoods, the episode became the latest cautionary tale about how the Internet itself had become a potent tool of deception wielded by political extremists, disinformation warriors and conspiracy theorists.
"There's a war going on outside, no man is safe from," said a frequent conspiracy theory poster on the website Reddit, the day after the shooting. "And it is only partially being fought with guns. The real weapon is information and the attack is on the mind."
A Washington Post review of thousands of posts on sites such as 8chan, 4chan and Reddit showed how people on online forums worked aggressively to undermine news reports about a troubled teen accused of killing 17 people, most of them students.
Former YouTube engineer Guillaume Chaslot referred to coordinated campaigns across online platforms to spread a video as "4chan attacks" because such anonymous forums often served as staging grounds for these efforts. YouTube and Facebook have policies against harassment that served as the basis for removing some of the conspiracy theories. But Chaslot said the companies have not done enough to weed out deceptive content.
The Parkland story line took advantage of emerging details about the surviving students — and even how they looked or talked during interviews with television reporters — to portray them as "crisis actors" playing the roles of victims in a "false flag" attack, a hoax designed to mislead the public and build support for gun control.
The campaign threatens to leave long-lasting scars on students and their families, who find themselves linked online to damaging and unsubstantiated theories in havens of misinformation across the Web. Survivors of the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting in 2012 and victims' families still are haunted by these online echoes of their trauma, experts say.
"The parents and the families of these murdered children are still being harassed by people online," said Joan Donovan, a researcher at the think tank Data & Society who studies media manipulation. "That is the legacy of this kind of harassment. For years to come, these students in Parkland are going to have to suffer this same fate."
Parkland student David Hogg, 17, emerged as the centerpiece of the "crisis actor" myth, in part because his father is a retired FBI agent, allowing the "false flag" idea to merge with ongoing conservative attacks on the bureau related to its investigation of President Trump's campaign.
There was little sign on the chat boards of any unease about singling out Parkland survivors and their families for personal attacks. Instead the mood seemed jubilant, with posters celebrating that the campaign had reached a broader audience of "normies," meaning people who typically keep their distance from racist, anti-Semitic and far-right extremist conversation.
"Just wanted to say thanks for all your digging and research," one poster wrote on 8chan. "Extra thanks if you're spreading info or memes about this kid. It's already breaking through the normie-sphere. KEEP PUSHING!"
Anonymous online forums have long incubated politically extreme, racially charged conversation with few rules or concessions to good taste. On 4chan, founded in 2003 and now owned by a Japanese businessman, such chats typically happen on the /pol/ — for "politically incorrect" — message board. 8chan, founded in 2013 by those who considered 4chan too restrictive, also has its own /pol/ board, where the exchanges play out under the heading, "On the jews and Their Lies."
A person who responded to 8chan's administrative email said the board is totally anonymous and allows anyone to "read what users are saying, unfiltered. . . . The 8chan administration is irrelevant and unrelated in this matter." 4chan didn't respond to a request for comment.
Reddit is typically regarded as more mainstream, but the individual message boards, including "r/The_Donald" and "r/conspiracy," hosted harsh attacks on the Parkland students. The site in 2016 closed its thriving "Pizzagate" conspiracy theory message board, a leading source of allegations that a child molestation ring run by Democratic Party luminaries operated out of a Washington pizza shop that led to a real shooting in which no one was hurt. Reddit declined to comment.
Researchers say it's difficult to know whether any single message board was decisive in pushing conspiracy theories about the Parkland shooting to prominence on YouTube and other mainstream sites. But Donovan, the Data & Society researcher, said far-right sites are increasingly capitalizing on current story lines to promote hyperpartisan claims, unsubstantiated conspiracy theories and media attacks in order to boost their audiences and advertising revenue.
"You don't have to know the truth," she said. "It's just as effective to hint that a conspiracy is afoot."
there's way more at the link, but make sure you're sitting down, and have already taken your BP meds.
^The last line is the important one. "It's just as effective to hint that a conspiracy is afoot."
There's a conspiracy?! I knew it!!!
Shhh! Don't let the Jews know you're coming. They've ears everywhere!
(https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/APP-022718-Trump-Muggers.jpg)
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I think I might run in if I were POTUS too, by this point in his presidency I'd probably feel I was better off dead than trying to improve this liberal scumbag infested country. :peace:
^I was the one who tried to mug him.
A man can't do both?
Gus: The Hugger Mugger
I think that means something else.
Quote from: em2nought on February 28, 2018, 02:13:47 PM
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(https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Trump-Daily-News-clip-MEDIUM.jpg)
I think I might run in if I were POTUS too, by this point in his presidency I'd probably feel I was better off dead than trying to improve this liberal scumbag infested country. :peace:
Snopes (https://www.snopes.com/trump-stops-mugging-1991/) states the claim that "Donald Trump intervened to stop a bat-wielding mugger in New York City in 1991." is "Unproven."
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/commanding-officer-initially-ordered-responding-deputies-to-stage-not-enter-stoneman-douglas-sources-say/ar-BBJIFcb?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp
Fox News story;
Commanding officer initially ordered responding deputies to 'stage' not enter Stoneman Douglas, sources say QuoteFox News has learned that in the critical moments as first responding deputies were searching for an active shooter on the property of Marjory Stoneman Douglas high school, a commanding officer on scene apparently ordered some of the initial responders to "stage" and set up a "perimeter" outside -- instead of immediately ordering or allowing officers to rush in to neutralize the suspect, Nikolas Cruz.
"It's atrocious," a law enforcement source who was on the scene after the shooting told Fox News. "If deputies were staging it could have cost lives."
The law enforcement source said responding deputies and officers were called to an active shooter scene in which they are trained to immediately "go, go, go" toward the direction of the shooter. "Every second is another life," the source said.
The Broward County Sherrif's Office policy on active shooters indicates responding deputies may enter the building to preserve life without permission. That remains the priority until various objectives are met such as the shooter being detained. The policy does not appear to list staging or a perimeter as an immediate priority.
However, two law enforcement officials said the call for staging or a perimeter might not have been a bad call because staging and a perimeter eventually has to happen during most emergency situations and the commanding officer might have had information the rest of the crews did not.
Fox News spoke to Carla Kmiotek, a sergeant for the Coral Springs Fire Department who said she was one of the first responding officers to the scene on February 14. Kmiotek says an active shooter call is "multifaceted when discussing tactics and scene command. Our officers are trained to respond and immediately press to the threat."
However, Kmiotek said, "Setting up a perimeter and incident command is a necessary element of the response... determined from the intelligence known as the event is unfolding."
Fox News has repeatedly reached out to the Broward County Sheriff's office — which was the commanding agency that day — for comment on the timeline of the shooting and also on the allegations of bad commands from any commanding officer. In an email, a BSO spokesperson wrote that the case remained active and ongoing and that no additional details were being released, per a Florida statute.
The Florida Department of Law Enforcement is investigating all of the responding agencies and timeline of the day of the shooting. Fox News asked the FDLE about the specific allegations of bad commands or a pre-mature order to stage. In an email, an FDLE spokesperson wrote that its "review is active" and could not comment on the allegations.
One ranking Florida official close to the investigation told Fox News he and some of his colleagues have heard claims that some of the first responders at Stoneman Douglas were stalled getting inside because of bad commands.
Another source with close ties to a county and city official told Fox News a few of the responding officers on scene were very frustrated and one was brought to tears over the law enforcement response.
Kmiotek would not estimate or speculate how many officers were already on scene or how many had made it into the school when the stage and command orders were given. "When we are able to release our timeline in compliance with the investigation we will," she said.
What appears to corroborate all of the sources' allegations of bad commands is a portion of the February 14 dispatch log obtained by Fox News that appears to indicate there were several orders for crews to stage and form a perimeter. The logs appeared to indicate that at the same time these commands were given, law enforcement still had not located the active shooter and even a responding air crew refused to take off — apparently in fear of being shot down — because it was not established the shooter was in custody.
One law enforcement source said it still was an "extremely" active shooter situation since authorities had not located the shooter and critical emergency aircrews were not taking off. The source said deputies and police should be have been rushing in to neutralize the threat versus staging or setting up a perimeter.
Jeff Bell, the president of the Broward County Sheriff's Deputies Association, said it wasn't clear how many officers were already on the scene or in the school when the first perimeter and stage command came out. But Bell says unless "50" officers were already inside then it was a bad command to order staging. "If that is the correct log at ten minutes, that we were more concerned with the perimeter than finding the shooter, it was a bad command. It could have stalled our officers or cost lives."
Bell said he estimates the dispatch log obtained by Fox News is 99 percent accurate.
According to multiple reports and police information, Nikolas Cruz entered Building 12 on the campus of Marjory Stoneman around 2:21 p.m. and began firing. Law enforcement tells Fox News the shooting lasted about seven and a half minutes.
According to a portion of the dispatch log, there was a call that came in at 2:23 p.m. from a female student about shots fired.
At 2:25 p.m., more "SHOTS FIRED" were recorded by responding officers or witnesses.
At 2:26 p.m., the log indicated another call came in advising the shooting was coming from "THE 1200 BLDG."
At 2:26:56 p.m., Cruz was still firing, according to units on scene. "UNITS ADV SHOTS FIRED" the log read.
At 2:29 p.m., the log indicated responding officers did not know where Cruz was. "UKNOWN SHOOTER LOCATION," the log read.
At 2:30 another active shooter call was logged, that a mother of a student advised, "HE HEARD SHOTS FIRED HE IS IN 11th GRADE IN A MATH CLASS UNK ROOM NUMBER."
At this point, eleven minutes after it was believed Cruz first opened fire, the log indicated one of the commanding officers started ordering responding officers to begin forming a perimeter, which one law enforcement source said would go against all training to first neutralize the threat.
At 2:32 p.m., the dispatch call log indicated the first command to form a perimeter was issued, "17S1...NEED PERIMETER."
Sources told Fox News the 17S1 insignia on the log that day is important because it is the insignia, or code, for who was making the commands. 17S1 stands for 17 Sierra One.
A short while later, as the dispatch log indicated the whereabouts of the shooter was unknown; the first command to "stage" apparently was given.
2:34:48 p.m., "17S1 STAGE SIDE SAWGRASS."
Slide 1 of 37: PARKLAND, FL - FEBRUARY 28: People stand in front of Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School as students arrive to attend classes for the first time since the shooting that killed 17 people on February 14 at the school on February 28, 2018 in Parkland, Florida. Police arrested 19-year-old former student Nikolas Cruz for the 17 murders.
Then, three minutes after that staging order, the log indicated the scene was still active as emergency aircrews indicated they would not go because it hadn't been confirmed the shooter was in custody.
2:38 p.m., "AIR RESCUE ADVISED NOT LAUNCING UNTIL CONFIRMED SUBJ IS IN CUSTODY," the log read.
At 2:47 p.m., 15 minutes after the first command to form a perimeter was issued and 13 minutes after the first command to stage was issued, the log indicated the SWAT team entered the school.
At 3:02 p.m., the log apparently indicated the 20-minute delay in surveillance that law enforcement was using to track down Cruz. "20 MIN DELAY FROM CAMERA HE EXITED THE BUILDING RUNNING SOUTH," the log stated.
At 3:03 p.m. the log stated, "VIDEO SHOWS HE POSS MIXED WITH KIDS."
At 3:10 the log indicated Nikolas Cruz has been identified by a baseball coach, "POSS STUDENT NICHOLAS CRUSE 43 FROM BASEBALL COACH."
At 3:16 the log indicated Cruz was identified again. "UNIT ADV ON DISPATCH 11A THAT THE SUBJ IS POSS A WM NAMED NICHOLAS CRUZ, WM LSAW A BURG SHIRT, BLK SHORTS, WAS LAST SEEN ON S/E END OF THE SCHOOL..." the log stated.
Eventually, Cruz was apprehended near the school. He is currently in custody.
The Florida House has subpoenaed responding law enforcement agencies and the Broward County Public schools for records related to the shooting for its own investigation.
Quote from: Greybriar on March 01, 2018, 08:52:22 AM
Quote from: em2nought on February 28, 2018, 02:13:47 PM
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I think I might run in if I were POTUS too, by this point in his presidency I'd probably feel I was better off dead than trying to improve this liberal scumbag infested country. :peace:
Snopes (https://www.snopes.com/trump-stops-mugging-1991/) states the claim that "Donald Trump intervened to stop a bat-wielding mugger in New York City in 1991." is "Unproven."
And now the backlash to the backlash begins. On one hand, at least this witness has a name.
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2018/03/01/witness-says-trump-did-nothing-to-stop-bat-beating-in-1991/23374564/
(The article seems to be from the NYDailyNews.com, btw. Worth noting that Rosen, at the NYDN, was who originally wrote the story above, for that outlet.)
On the other hand, her story seems a bit fishy, too: if everything was over "minutes before Trump arrived", and the guy had already run away, why would Trump even stop the car? Was New York so arch-conservative at the time, that the witness now didn't feel safe setting the record straight before? (And would Trump back then even be counted hilariously among the conservatives?)
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/cortneyobrien/2018/03/08/swat-officers-who-rushed-to-scene-of-parkland-shooting-have-been-disciplined-n2458822
QuoteTwo Miramar Police Department SWAT team members, Det. Jeffery Gilbert and Det. Carl Schlosser, were off duty and training at Coral Springs when they learned of the shooting at nearby Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School last month, where 17 people were killed.
Instead of treating the two men as heroes, the SWAT's unit commander informed the two men that they had been temporarily suspended from their duties. They were unwanted, you see.
"Effective immediately you have been suspended from the SWAT Team until further notice," wrote Capt. Kevin Nosowicz, the unit's commander, in a Feb. 22 memo obtained by the Miami Herald through a public records request. "Please make arrangements with the training department to turn in your SWAT-issued rifle." (Miami Herald)
Pat Franklin, a retired Miami Beach police detective, offered further explanation for the disciplinary action.
"You don't want to let those guys loose into something that's chaotic where they might take inappropriate action," he noted. "It is prudent to have them stand down unless there is a plan."
Many will not accept this is as a valid reason, after knowing that four armed Broward County deputies failed to properly act during the shooting. One officer, Scot Peterson, stood outside the building where the shooting was happening, yet stood still for four minutes.
Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel has not taken responsibility for his deputies' inaction,nor for how law enforcement missed countless red flags about the shooter's erratic behavior before he shot up the school.
Marjory Stoneman students and faculty returned to school last Wednesday. Let's ask this community if they think Gilbert and Schlosser are heroes.
WTF
Quote from: OJsDad on March 08, 2018, 08:03:49 AM
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/cortneyobrien/2018/03/08/swat-officers-who-rushed-to-scene-of-parkland-shooting-have-been-disciplined-n2458822
QuoteTwo Miramar Police Department SWAT team members, Det. Jeffery Gilbert and Det. Carl Schlosser, were off duty and training at Coral Springs when they learned of the shooting at nearby Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School last month, where 17 people were killed.
Instead of treating the two men as heroes, the SWAT's unit commander informed the two men that they had been temporarily suspended from their duties. They were unwanted, you see.
"Effective immediately you have been suspended from the SWAT Team until further notice," wrote Capt. Kevin Nosowicz, the unit's commander, in a Feb. 22 memo obtained by the Miami Herald through a public records request. "Please make arrangements with the training department to turn in your SWAT-issued rifle." (Miami Herald)
Pat Franklin, a retired Miami Beach police detective, offered further explanation for the disciplinary action.
"You don't want to let those guys loose into something that's chaotic where they might take inappropriate action," he noted. "It is prudent to have them stand down unless there is a plan."
Many will not accept this is as a valid reason, after knowing that four armed Broward County deputies failed to properly act during the shooting. One officer, Scot Peterson, stood outside the building where the shooting was happening, yet stood still for four minutes.
Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel has not taken responsibility for his deputies' inaction,nor for how law enforcement missed countless red flags about the shooter's erratic behavior before he shot up the school.
Marjory Stoneman students and faculty returned to school last Wednesday. Let's ask this community if they think Gilbert and Schlosser are heroes.
Unfortunately, I'm not surprised.
I also think the crooked political establishment, of which the Broward County Sheriff is part, probably did a lot of complaining to get this suspension. ::)
Things like this are why conspiracy theorists come up with theories: see, that boy was SUPPOSED TO shoot up the school, that was "THEIR" PLAN! -- which the police almost ruined by getting in the way. :hide:
(There probably is a dumbass conspiracy behind this, but it'll be much pettier and more realistic. L:-) )
No need to come up with a big conspiracy theory when you can simply attribute it to slimy political practices.
Not the first time the Broward County Sheriff has been in the news. Even besides their crooked deal with the school.
New Broward Sheriff's Office 'Israel Mobiles' denounced as campaign ploy
Candidate says sheriff misusing office for political gain
By Bob Norman - Investigative Reporter
Posted: 9:13 PM, September 14, 2015
https://www.local10.com/news/new-broward-sheriffs-office-israel-mobiles-denounced-as-campaign-ploy
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https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/15/us/surveillance-video-parkland-shooting.html
WTF- did he ride out to his 'overwatch' position in a golf cart?!?
It's beyond baffling what was in his head.
QuoteMr. Peterson also told other law enforcement officers who raced to the school to stay outside. Coral Springs officers, the first to arrive on the scene, pushed into the building anyway. By then, the gunman had already fled.
He rode out to his 'screw this shit, I'm retiring" position.
That whole event seems to be looking more and more like the kind of dark comedy movie plot where the audience doesn't laugh but instead leaves the theater angry and not looking each other in the eye.
And I say that with all respect to the victims.