School shooting in Florida

[Nefaro]

I don't think it's an issue of basic firearms training or not, I think that the cop in question let his adverse situation training skills atrophy during the years he was a school resource officer. Day-in and day-out he was probably doing nothing more than greeting kids and giving talks with the occasional hallway fight to break up. When the moment came he locked up in confusion and doubt.

This is my main concern with arming teachers. To be effective in a crisis they would need to constantly challenge their own fight-or-flight instincts through some kind of semi-monthly simulation training similar to what is offered to soldiers and cops on the beat- training that the school officer had also probably neglected. If we have armed teachers they need to be more like air marshals than regular educators who happen to be armed.

There's a difference between being a teacher inside a classroom with a gun man coming to get you versus a cop that's outside deciding not to go in.  If that teacher has a gun, whether they've gone through all of the training you describe, they're going to use that gun. 

Also, at the end of the day, people are relying on the police to be there when they are needed.  We all know that cops cannot be everywhere all the time, but when they are, we expect them to put them selves in harms way to protect the people they swore to protect.  Not hide outside and retire to collect their retirement check.

We shouldn't expect police to always come charging to the rescue just because they are armed.  The USSC ruled that they are not obligated to come save your life with their weapon(s).  Apparently those are for self-protection.

If any of us were in the shoes of a teacher, or even a student, cornered in a room by some mass murderer with a gun, I'd bet nearly all of us would wish we had armed ourselves beforehand, at that moment.  The Columbine shooting is a perfect example of kids & teachers cornered and helpless in their rooms while a couple killers just leisurely walked around shooting them.  While hordes of police were outside.  It's not the only one.

It's obvious that the current teenage murderer fad for racking up a large body count, and getting your newly infamous name & face plastered across worldwide news for quite awhile, is to target a "gun free zone" school.  It's also obvious that the mental health issues driving such behavior is increasing, and the attacks won't stop no matter how much we think we can predict and stop them beforehand.  It's impossible.  Especially when law enforcement fails at enforcing the laws already on the books.

Sorry guys, but the only solid solution I see is for people to take their own precautions.  Could just be my Libertarian streak that I default to, but the saying that "the cops only show up to clean up the mess afterward" is often true.  Plan accordingly because we don't live in a Minority Report world where future crimes can be seen.

[OJsDad]

^There's no way to know if any of what you said is true until the moment occurs.

Fact; at least 2 staff members gave their lives trying to protect their students.
Fact; at least 1 and perhaps as many as 4 police failed to enter that building while there was still shooting going on. 

At this point, I'm in leaning in favor of allowing teachers to carry into their classrooms if they choose to.

[Gusington]

Again, there's no guarantee that an armed teacher will always act the way those two mentioned above did. And there's no guarantee that trained police officers will fail to act the way the four cited above failed.

[Jarhead0331]

In life, there are no guarantees. There is only planning and preparation to minimize the pucker factor.

[airboy]

I don't think it's an issue of basic firearms training or not, I think that the cop in question let his adverse situation training skills atrophy during the years he was a school resource officer. Day-in and day-out he was probably doing nothing more than greeting kids and giving talks with the occasional hallway fight to break up. When the moment came he locked up in confusion and doubt.

This is my main concern with arming teachers. To be effective in a crisis they would need to constantly challenge their own fight-or-flight instincts through some kind of semi-monthly simulation training similar to what is offered to soldiers and cops on the beat- training that the school officer had also probably neglected. If we have armed teachers they need to be more like air marshals than regular educators who happen to be armed.

I work in a stupid "gun free zone" every day.  It is insane.  I can have all the firepower I want in the parking lot, yet the "magic gun free sticker" protects me on Campus.

The Alabama Legislature is considering a bill to allow teachers to voluntarily take 40 hours of training and a psyc exam to carry concealed in school.  Having someone with a gun who is willing to use it (instead of certain death), even if they are just in a defensive crouch with lots of students behind them, is much better than a stupid gun free zone.

Nobody is expecting an armed teacher to aggressively seek out a shooter.  But a shooter who knows that someone could be armed may deter evil murderers or strike them down before they kill even more people.

[Steelgrave]

Nobody is expecting an armed teacher to aggressively seek out a shooter.  But a shooter who knows that someone could be armed may deter evil murderers or strike them down before they kill even more people.

And this carries the day for me in the "arm teachers or not" argument. Huddled in a classroom, helpless, hoping the crazy bastard with a gun passes you and your students by versus huddled in the classroom, firearm at the ready, knowing you at least have the opportunity to defend yourself and your charges should that same monster choose your door....

Scott Beigel, Aaron Feis and Chris Hixon died trying to protect those kids. If any or all of them had been armed, who knows what a difference that might have made?

[Gusington]

Could it not also make the armed teachers more of a specific target?

[Steelgrave]

Could it not also make the armed teachers more of a specific target?

If the gunman were targeting people who were armed, he would have started with the school safety officer. I love ya, Gus, but that makes no sense.

[Gusington]

^Nor does thinking a mass murderer is thinking logically, Dad.

[Steelgrave]

I very much doubt it would be public knowledge as to which teachers or admins were armed or not, so I'm not sure how your scenario would unfold. And most of these monsters are cowards at heart, wanting to inflate their body count as much as possible before turning the gun on themselves when confronted by police. This last shooter (who I won't dignify by using his name) is one of the very few to be captured alive. Statistically, most kill themselves.

[JudgeDredd]

I don't think it's an issue of basic firearms training or not, I think that the cop in question let his adverse situation training skills atrophy during the years he was a school resource officer. Day-in and day-out he was probably doing nothing more than greeting kids and giving talks with the occasional hallway fight to break up. When the moment came he locked up in confusion and doubt.

This is my main concern with arming teachers. To be effective in a crisis they would need to constantly challenge their own fight-or-flight instincts through some kind of semi-monthly simulation training similar to what is offered to soldiers and cops on the beat- training that the school officer had also probably neglected. If we have armed teachers they need to be more like air marshals than regular educators who happen to be armed.

An additional concern for me would be that teachers would then be judged - much like this officer was - with their lack of action when in fact there may be quite a few teachers that actually don't want to shoot people.

You know - it is a thing - some people just don't want to shoot people. Even if those people are shooting people. It's not in everyone's DNA.

[JasonPratt]

I very much doubt it would be public knowledge as to which teachers or admins were armed or not, so I'm not sure how your scenario would unfold.

...has it been a while since you were in school? ;) Because, regardless of the pros and cons of arming teachers/staff, scuttlebutt would congregate pretty quickly around who was armed, especially if there are official certification and training upkeep requirements. Some of that might be educated guesses (and so mistaken, right or wrong in either direction), but kids (and parents) WOULD be working out who was armed.

So I wouldn't base any strategy on the armed staff being unknown to shooters who are students at the school, or who are connected to students. Randos off the street, sure; but not students.

[bayonetbrant]

 :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD

http://wncn.com/2018/02/26/trump-says-he-would-have-confronted-florida-shooter/

[airboy]

I don't think it's an issue of basic firearms training or not, I think that the cop in question let his adverse situation training skills atrophy during the years he was a school resource officer. Day-in and day-out he was probably doing nothing more than greeting kids and giving talks with the occasional hallway fight to break up. When the moment came he locked up in confusion and doubt.

This is my main concern with arming teachers. To be effective in a crisis they would need to constantly challenge their own fight-or-flight instincts through some kind of semi-monthly simulation training similar to what is offered to soldiers and cops on the beat- training that the school officer had also probably neglected. If we have armed teachers they need to be more like air marshals than regular educators who happen to be armed.

An additional concern for me would be that teachers would then be judged - much like this officer was - with their lack of action when in fact there may be quite a few teachers that actually don't want to shoot people.

You know - it is a thing - some people just don't want to shoot people. Even if those people are shooting people. It's not in everyone's DNA.

^ I agree that some people will not pull the trigger on another human being.  But I think that the odds increase when you are protecting others.

All of the bills make it voluntary, with a lot of training and a psyc check for a teacher to be armed in school.  So my guess is the ones who choose to take the training are more likely to be able to pull the trigger.

All I can say as a person in a sticky note "gun free zone," please give the teachers the choice to adequately defend themselves and others.  Rational training, rational psyc evaluation, and give us the option.

If my school gave us the option, I would buy a handgun and carry it to work.  I don't need it at home (I prefer shotguns and have shot 10,000 rounds through several of mine). 

[mirth]

:DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD

http://wncn.com/2018/02/26/trump-says-he-would-have-confronted-florida-shooter/

I'm beginning to think I might have drank less during a Hilly presidency.