Cold Waters

[Toonces]

What difficulty are you all playing at?  Not getting shot at by the AI hasn't been a problem for me, but I'm playing at the hardest level.

[jomni]

I'm playing normal and I get ASROC spams once in a while. The helos usually catch me.

I think it boils down to detection.  Keeping stealthy is key to survival.  But the AI needs to learn to shoot when attacked even when not detecting the firer and not just evade.

[Swatter]

I believe I am playing on the second highest difficulty setting. I think JiveTurkey said the difficultly level corresponds to how often you encounter subs, but I don't know if that's true.

These days, once I get some good information on a task force or a convoy, I go deep and launch a salvo of torpedoes and sprint away. If the first salvo doesn't sink anything (rarely), it seems to break up the formation making it easier to pick ships off. It seems like even their best ASW specialist ships just sit on their ammo until I come to get them.

Plus, I wonder if ships don't have better counter-measures than are presented in the game. Basically, if I get a good fire solution, that ship is as good as dead.

[Nefaro]

What difficulty are you all playing at?  Not getting shot at by the AI hasn't been a problem for me, but I'm playing at the hardest level.

I moved mine up a difficulty level.  One below maximum.

I just don't think the AI is programmed to counter-fire blind shots.  Or not well enough to get them to do so on a regular basis. 

The developer did say they were working on improving the AI, when I specifically asked about the lack of it's counter-fire.  So they're aware.   O0

[Slick Wilhelm]

Does anyone else get killed by ASW if and only if you use missiles? I can stay undetected for a long time, but as soon as I deploy a Harpoon, it's like the ASW helicopters are on me like a cheap suit.

[JudgeDredd]

Does anyone else get killed by ASW if and only if you use missiles? I can stay undetected for a long time, but as soon as I deploy a Harpoon, it's like the ASW helicopters are on me like a cheap suit.

I imagine that's because they can pinpoint your location much faster. There is a huge giveaway when launching anything surface related.

[Nefaro]

Does anyone else get killed by ASW if and only if you use missiles? I can stay undetected for a long time, but as soon as I deploy a Harpoon, it's like the ASW helicopters are on me like a cheap suit.

I imagine that's because they can pinpoint your location much faster. There is a huge giveaway when launching anything surface related.

That's the exact reason.

When launching a missile, it's booster leaves a trail pointing directly back to your launch location.  Aircraft can see it from very long distance.  Radar can detect it, too.  Enemy warships will also shoot their rocket-dropped Silex torpedoes on that area pretty quickly. 

Launching missiles isn't subtle at all.  I only use ASMs when there's little or no threat from enemy planes & warships, or in desperation to complete my objective before it gets away.

[JasonPratt]

I recall torps in RSR being, in fact, very deadly against surface ships, though naturally the largest ships needed more hits. The Sovs in the 80s didn't have the tech US ships did (decoys, prairie/masker). Their defense against hunter subs was: (1) fellow subs; (2) helos; (3) fixed-wing air searches; (4) counter shots along lines of bearing to force cutting wires and so messing with the aim a little. Some ships could create knuckles to spoof a torp at the last moment maybe. Basically, hit the US before he can shoot, and mess with his aim afterward, or at least kill him if he shoots trading ships for subs hoping for an attrition win over time.

[Slick Wilhelm]

The Mk 48 torpedo works wonderfully well in the game, but I find shooting missiles to be great fun. I just don't like paying the penalty for it.

[mirth]

Lobbing Harpoons is fun.

[Slick Wilhelm]

***WARNING, rant ahead***

Alright, I just about threw my chair against the wall last night because of a super annoying incident during my 1984 campaign. It was during one of those "Launch at least 8 TLAM missiles at xxx port" missions. This particular one was at Murmansk.

I closed to within striking distance and launched 4 TLAMs from 200ft depth. That, of course, set off the ASW bells in the neighborhood. I had a Bear dropping sonobuoys all over me, then came the rain of ASW torpedoes. I successfully evaded 4 torps, but the 5th one hit me on the port bow for 25% hull damage. So for the next 90 minutes, I spent a nail biting time trying to keep my sub from sinking and hitting bottom, which I managed to do, using a combination of speed, planes and ballast adjustments. Great fun! The Bear even left me alone long enough for me to launch my second salvo of TLAMs in order to complete my mission objectives. Eventually, I was able to get the flooding under control enough to leave combat. I was thinking "Great job, Slick, the brass are going to love me for completing my mission AND surviving the ASW attacks". They were happy enough with my successful mission, but immediately assigned me another mission! It was if my messages to them informing them of my sub's damaged condition made absolutely no difference to them.

Now for the annoying part...after being assigned another mission, I thought "ok, fine, my sub's not in the best shape, but I'll soldier on". Go to the map screen, thinking I'll start my trip to the next location...BOOM! Three ASW groups are on me like a cheap suit on the map in less than two seconds. The worst part is that my flooding was apparently NOT in control from the end of the last mission! I started with flooding in the bow, tubes and ballast/pumps sections. And, since apparently damage control parties on modern subs can only work on one part of a sub at a time, you end up playing "whack-a-mole" between the three compartments.

Now, imagine yourself getting tired and just wanting to have five seconds on the map screen in order to save the game and go to bed. And then imagine yourself getting attacked by group after group of ASW fleets on the map, not allowing you those five seconds. After another hour of sinking more ships and subs, and playing damage control wack-a-mole, I finally just abandoned ship so that I could actually save my campaign and go to bed.  :pullhair:

After surviving such a harrowing mission, I wish there was a "rtb" button where it is assumed that you successfully evaded the enemy in combat and made your way back to port.

Anyway, thanks for letting me vent.

[Toonces]

I don't know if it's modeled in game but it wouldn't surprise if it is.  If your sub took hull damage, your stealthiness is shot.  First, the damage on your hull will reflect sound if the enemy is using active, making you more detectable.  Also, if you have flooding I would assume that the noise would cause transients that can be detected passively.  That might have been why you were detected and so aggressively attacked in the following mission.

You should have had that stuff repaired in port before you sortied again.  I know, you already know this now.   8)

[Slick Wilhelm]

Sorry if I wasn't clear, toonces. I was *trying* to return to base before going onto the next mission. But, whenever I clicked "continue" and went to the map screen, I would immediately get jumped by another ASW group, starting another combat. I never even had time to save the game before it threw me into the next round of combat.

[Nefaro]

It's okay to head back to port, and brush off a mission, if need be.  You can get away with doing so multiple times in a campaign.  It may extend the campaign longer (not necessarily a bad thing) but it won't be a loss unless you've been repeatedly failing them lately.

When I get damaged, or my weapon stores get down to where I have less than 5 or 6 fish, I usually head back.  Depending on current mission.  Since most are wins, I can afford to lose one on occasion. 

I've had it give me orders to RTB, due to low stores or damage, before.  But that threshold is set pretty high in the campaign.  For weapons, I don't recall getting it until I was down to ~3 in an LA or Sturgeon.  May be even 2 or less.  I suspect the damage threshold is judged by overall hull damage %, so 25 probably wasn't enough to trip it. 

Also:  Don't forget to put your repair party on the Pumps.  I have no idea if your pumps were still damaged between encounters, but I've screwed up by not noticing the pumps needed repair in the past.  I just put them there, by default, when everything is caught up anyway.  Your renewed flooding may well be a bug, however.  Pretty sure I saw it mentioned in some patch notes before.

As for getting jumped by multiple enemy groups as soon as you get back into the strategic map, I've also had the same experience on missions in the Barents sea.  Judging by their behavior on the strat map in general, it tends to spawn multiple enemy groups any time you are detected.  Such as strat map air patrol or when you have an encounter & sink anyone.  Ofc those groups spawn from enemy bases & ports.  So being in the Soviet Barents "back yard", right next to their bases, they pop out right next to you. 

I kept having this happen with Soviet sub groups after going around the north cape on a SEAL infil mission.  A stream of them kept popping out of Murmansk (where I had to go).  Likely doing their own missions (the random sorties) AND getting suspicious about their previous ones getting blowed up so close to base.  As soon as I would get out of one, and back to the campaign map, another would run into me within a second or two.  Made for slow going.  But I began to get concerned about my remaining torpedoes, so I started staying silent and evading them which was a fun change (sailed between a pair of them, and past, on one encounter  8)  ).  You'll eventually get a respite enough to get clear of the traffic.  I just chalk it up to being right on the enemy's doorstep, deep in enemy territory.

[jamus34]

I imagine naval ports /docks will be heavily patrolled in wartime and additionally if you launch missles against the mainland you can expect them to be pissed and come after you.