"Six Days in October" -- Game Time Is...

[mirth]

^nice. I may have to read the AAR ;)

[Cyrano]

So very, very much but, in the Ulm fight and this one, the difficulty of getting anywhere "firstest with the mostest" is notable.

Great teacher the KS.

And Brunswick, do not despair, I rather would like to see your own side of the hedge.

[Hatricvs]

Don't worry I will get some stuff together for sure and get it posted. I think it is because I am trying to do this on an IPAD ...so tomorrow I will deploy 'the ancient one'...otherwise known as the aged laptop, so that should be fun! Anyway here's hoping I have a little more success in the morning.

[JasonPratt]

And Brunswick, do not despair, I rather would like to see your own side of the hedge.

Yes, I am highly curious about the overall strategic Prussian plan and how it developed. (I've read Barth's thread now, but I don't really get a gist of the overall plan from that.)

[Hatricvs]

Still to sort the technical difficulties out re photos and plans but the basic idea that I hoped the Prussian's could do was as follows:

France seemed on paper to have a huge force and the Prussian force was scattered and disjointed. My plan was to have the Prussian's not contest the passes through the Thungarian Forest but to fall back upon the rivers and high ground in the centre. I wanted the Prussian's to be able to contest areas that were close enough to each other to allow easy assistance to each other and good lines of communication between. I came up with a number of 'stop-lines' that seemed to suit the idea and after an exchange of differing views with the other Prussian commanders we opted for the over-all plan with an element of wait and see what the French do. 

My chief concern was that I did not want isolated pockets of Prussian's being cut off and surrounded while contesting the passes which seemed to invite the opportunity for the French to move up either flank and seal of the territory behind any defensive position in the passes. To my mind this seemed a distinct possibility. I was very much aware that they may try a huge outflanking march on the far eastern western side of the campaign territory either coming through the big pass in the middle or even more bold moving all the way north to approach Magdebourg from the east west whilst all my guys were still pottering about in the passes. I know it would have been an epic March for the French and both exhausting in time and fatigue but I did actually believe they might do something like that. This was before I realised just how long it took to get anywhere marching divisions and corps down those small lanes.

The victory conditions were difficult to understand from a Prussian perspective. I had to seek assistance on what would constitute a Prussian win as with a no time limit based situation and no direct supply limitations it seemed inevitable that once the French found and fought the Prussian's it would all be over and the French would win. I had my lines of communication and supply to be concerned about. I had to ensure that an advance on Berlin was prevented and thus keeping Magdebourg covered and denying the north-west east of the campaign territory from the French was appropriate. In addition I did not want to end up in a huge fight with the combined French force as it was highly likely that a pure attritional battle would also hand the French an easy and quick win as they needed to ensure there was no effective fighting force left to harass their advance or contest their control of the map in the hinterland.

So again space for time seemed to offer the best opportunity for the Prussian's. I also quite liked the idea that the French might waste a lot of energy trying to work out just where all the Prussian's went, not expecting them to up sticks and march halfway back to Berlin; I also thought that by the time the French worked it out and had caught up with my forces at the 1st stop line, my guys would have been there a couple of days and the French would be disorganised and tired but for that to work all the Prussian's would have to leave their start locations straight away and move quickly north by north west east for most of the commanders and do so at some pace.....this, as we will see, never happened and not knowing what Blucher was doing and where he actually was, really threw a proverbial spanner in the works.

Effectively I wanted to trade space for time and allow a consolidated comparatively 'rested' force to eventually confront a 'tired' and fractured French force. This never really happend as you will see. The Prussian command personalities wanted to do their own thing and this is how things turned out.

[Hatricvs]

General strategic idea...mass Prussian withdrawal with potential central defensive stop-line and a further stop-line on the Elbe.

First picture shows general idea and areas I wanted to fall back on as the campaign progressed.

Second picture is a close up of the first stop line area of ops.

Third picture is the Elbe stop line area of ops.

Fourth picture shows who would be where with Ruchel holding the hills in the east west, Blucher and Brunswick in the central belt and Hohenlohe holding the west east.

Fifth picture shows the lines of proposed retreat to the stop lines first a strategic shot.

Sixth picture is the retreat lines in the central area.

A seventh picture will show the western eastern retreat options with a retreat line all the way back to the Elbe as the Prussian last line of defence.

[Hatricvs]

These two pictures show the general routes of retreat that I proposed so that the Prussian's could fall back onto the stop-lines as the campaign developed. First one shows the area in the central belt and the next  the retreat lines in the west east back to the Elbe. All of this was drawn up in early November 2016 I think....seems mad to think this goes that far back!

Also it really did not take long to realise just how un-Napoleonic and un-19th Century this all was. I was at this point still seeing this game as any 'normal' military game where I was thinking in terms of 'fronts' and holding great swathes of territory against and aggressor. This game system most definitely disabused me of this thought process very quickly indeed!

[Barthheart]

Ruchel here:
Very interesting Commander, but in all your commentary you have switched East with West....
All my divisions were located on the western side of the campaign area....  ;)

[Hatricvs]

That is oh so true....no wonder I was in the mess I was in! I shall amend immediately for the sake of saving the continued confusion! Good spot Ruchel. Really should put into practice the concept of Never Eat Shredded Wheat...and also remember just because I was looking toward the south down the map this doesn't change the basic laws of geographic location...Ho hum!

[JasonPratt]

Interesting! Some commentary, not on how things developed (past Day 2 anyway) but on contemporary thoughts at the time.

France seemed on paper to have a huge force and the Prussian force was scattered and disjointed.

Actually on paper our numbers were about on parity. What our French forces had a massive advantage on (at this level of game operation, moving divisions not brigades around), was maneuverability. This allowed us to split up and "knock on all doors" (to borrow the alternative plan proposed for the Bulge / Autumn Mist), but I knew we had to be careful not to allow portions of our army to be punched out piecemeal: we could get around to hit from flanks and sides, but if we weren't careful a Prussian corps might defeat a French corps in detail. (Relatedly I'll be curious to find out what happened to our East Wing in the last third of the game.... we lost all communication with them after the first day at Leipzig.)

I wanted the Prussian's to be able to contest areas that were close enough to each other to allow easy assistance to each other and good lines of communication between.

Good idea. What worried me the most was that the Prussians would "game the map" and fall back to the edge of your LoC, forting up behind the rivers as the map edge, protecting the road to Berlin. No way for us to get around you, and we'd be forced to assault you en masse or else to focus assault and have you running reinforcements in and out from our attack zone.

I was very much aware that they may try a huge outflanking march on the far eastern western side of the campaign territory either coming through the big pass in the middle or even more bold moving all the way north to approach Magdebourg from the east west whilst all my guys were still pottering about in the passes. I know it would have been an epic March for the French and both exhausting in time and fatigue but I did actually believe they might do something like that.

Which, as you can discover from the Day 2 positions, and my report of our consolidated plan, was exactly what we decided to do -- actually with probes for that on both the east and west sides of the map.

However, I insisted that our guys should take it easy once they made sure we had gotten to the passes (since the Prussians were starting closer there). It would have been more exhausting on time, but they were NOT to fatigue themselves.

If I made one decision that contributed to our win, it was the insistence not to fatigue ourselves marching, I think. We couldn't stop the Prussians from falling back and forting up, and we wouldn't be able to keep y'all from recovering lost morale after doing so; consequently, my only hope was that the Prussians would zip around from place to place while we made sure and steady advances. (Also I didn't want a Prussian division or two to slip past us in between the roads and park on a key supply node south of the mountains. Even if they were out of communication for future orders, that might have screwed us over completely. Thus my caution you can see in the video at Day 2, and in the pre-planning.)

The victory conditions were difficult to understand from a Prussian perspective. I had to seek assistance on what would constitute a Prussian win as with a no time limit based situation and no direct supply limitations it seemed inevitable that once the French found and fought the Prussian's it would all be over and the French would win.

I'd like to hear more about this myself! I figured the Prussians could win somehow, but since I wasn't told how I was left trying to balance various possibilities (including time running out, which with our cautious full-spectrum advance I figured would do us in if anything did). I still don't know the Prussian win conditions...  ???

Edited to add, I'm honestly not yet sure we DID win! -- we might have succeeded at the tactical level of kicking more ass, but lost on the larger strategic requirements of advancing toward Berlin before running out of supplies (plus possibly Prussians in our rear counter-thrusting against our LoCs).

I also quite liked the idea that the French might waste a lot of energy trying to work out just where all the Prussian's went, not expecting them to up sticks and march halfway back to Berlin

While we didn't waste energy per se, we did slow down a little (on central and east wing -- west wing was in good position to maneuver for advancement independently of the other two thirds.) What did catch me completely by surprise (as Day 2 video shows, going no farther than that for now), was no Prussians in Weimar! As far as I expected, if you weren't at the passes already, you'd be lined up there.

[Hatricvs]

Wow Jason really incitefull and very interesting indeed. As is the nature of this game, getting everyone to do the same thing at the right time is very, very difficult indeed and you will see as the game develops just how much back and forth went on for the Prussian's and in particular how I saw an 'ogre' around every twist and turn of every road. This is going to make fascinating reading as it is released. I didn't even know there was a battle at Leipzig so that was news...really love this system and most certainly loving the expose post game!

[JasonPratt]

Okay, Oct 13th and 14th have been posted, so providing some context.

This dispatch to my fellow members of Central Thrust, as we're converging on the t-fork south of Weimar, gives an indication of how much we don't know about what's going on north and northwest of us.


***********************
Napoleon to Bernadotte and to Augereau 0900 14th October


[Note to Cyrano, make sure a courier is sent with a ditto to Bern]

SENT: 0900 14th October

Bernadotte and Augereau,

Since Aug and I have arrived at Saalfield early this morning, after camping not far south of it overnight, and since our divisions still seem fresh enough to move without morale loss, we shall be continuing up over the Saale creek to the T-Fork where you are currently camping, Bern, and (presumably) staging some scouting actions. Once we arrive, probably in the afternoon, we can convene all together for a discussion of how to support the West Wing's attack on Erfort, which I have now received word from Murat about.

As of 1 am this morning, after action yesterday, his Wing has shattered one of Ruchel's divisions, and they have detected only one more division at the moment pulled up east of Erfurt to offer blocking defense as the shattered div routs (or withdraws) toward Weimar. Murat's cavalry will be maneuvering north around Erfurt today; Davout shall be marching up to Erfurt from Arnstadt. Lannes is advancing on Erfurt from Gotha. Between the three they should be able to secure Erfurt soon, unless the Prussians commit major efforts to block and/or counterattack. Murat has not yet handed West Wing command to Lannes, nor has he begun a long-distance cavalry loop northward as per the original plan; whether he still intends to follow that plan, I do not know, but under the circumstances I am not criticizing him, only reporting where they are relative to the strategic form.

Once we convene, we shall need to consider, broadly speaking, whether and to what degree we should send troops along the following salients:

1.) West-northwest on the road to Arnstadt or possibly farther north of that bearing, in order to secure Davout's advance from being perhaps looped by a venture from Wemar. I cannot envision a major thrust from our group that way, since that bearing seems very secure otherwise; but for sake of completeness I think we could consider a cavalry scouting division.

2.) North from the fork toward Weimar, perhaps with some of our group winging out eastward to scout for enemy dispositions and/or to prosecute an envelopment.

3.) A main thrust northeast from the fork, aiming the axis of our thrust rightward to the east of Weimar generally, committing to seeking a more full if slower envelopment of a presumed Weimar defense; perhaps with a scouting division moving more directly northward along the road to report on dispositions and movements which could split our Center from the West Wing (or, by the same token, set up an opportunity for us to reverse back west for a flank attack on their probe.) This would be generally the riskier move.

Please keep in mind as you consider these options (or others...?) before we convene, that WE DO NOT REALLY KNOW WHERE THE PRUSSIANS CURRENTLY STAND OR MOVE! We know of two of Ruchel's divisions, plus a half-corps-or-corps east being hunted by our East Wing. (Soult has reported to Ney, thence to me, that yesterday they found some of the enemy they sought, encamped on the road between Zwickau and Plauen. Constitution, unreported perhaps unknown, but not enough evidently for Ney to cease probing toward Gera.)

We can pretty safely deduce that the Prussians are not at our latitudes, but north of here, who knows? In theory they could be advancing back south toward Schleitz and thence to threaten our overall line of communication for the whole army. I have no evidence of this, but I am worried that I have already violated one of my prime goals in maneuver and advance, to secure our LoCs. Following the T-Fork rightward to Neustadt could help uncover (or patch) a fatal flaw, as well as prepare us for a more encompassing assault on Weimar.

Anyway. Consider the options, and keep in mind we still lack very key information about enemy positions and movements.

Until after-noon (presumably),

Napoleon



In my imagination, that giant hole filled with nothing had to be filled with Prussians, just waiting for pieces of us to bump into their lines and be ambushed. Bern did have orders to scout around north of his position (which he did once his troops rested a bit) but not to advance into a trap -- what I wanted was for all of us to advance in a grand line of mutual support, and Bernadotte, having the closer march, arrived in his position first, so he had to wait for us to pivot into position.

I got the impression (correctly, but not as correctly as I realized!) that the Prussian axis in the area had shifted westward, so instead of advancing northward I pulled west with Aug to convene wit Bern and figure out how to create our front of approach. Doing so, however, I immediately began to worry about having abandoned a channel to our line of communication. Eventually we'd spread out our axis of advance between Weimar and Jena. Meanwhile West Wing (and to his own extent Soult) are busy kicking names and TAKING ASS! {/InfWarref}  >:D

Watching the videos illumines how close the fighting in the west really was, though. It looks like we outnumber Barth pitifully, but the dice-muse could have rolled us completely the other way.

(.. ...... not a euphamism either.  :hide: )

[Pinetree]

Man, my guys really tried to catch those damn Prussians, but those buggers ran fast!

[panzerde]

Man, my guys really tried to catch those damn Prussians, but those buggers ran fast!

They do that. You need a sack to snatch them up.

[JasonPratt]

A sack made entirely of cavalry! Alas we only had one of those.