"Six Days in October" -- Game Time Is...

Started by Cyrano, October 15, 2016, 11:18:41 PM

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Pinetree

I never thought of that, he was rather quiet in the last couple of days
Gen. Montgomery: "Your men don't salute much."
Gen. Freyberg: "Well, if you wave at them they'll usually wave back."

James Sterrett

He was alive during the early morning hours of the final game day.  :)

JasonPratt

I can tell you that if I was slain, no one informed me of it! -- however, that's not a denial, and since I was in the thick of things that might indeed be the secret resolution.  :o

Looking at the most recent videos, now that the fog is lifted I am cringing watching the meatgrinder develop for East Wing. I was greatly worried for them already in the final days, and suspected that we ourselves might have been deep-circuited by triumphant Prussians, triggering our demise (since by the nature of things our LoC is more important to protect than theirs.) However, if anyone knows about this they are being remarkably tight-lipped out about it!


Something else worth noting from the videos, but which doesn't come through, is that I had literally zero idea that Nappy's GIANT ARTILLERY CITY was traveling around with me at all. I wasn't giving orders to it -- Cyrano was just being nice about it tagging along by default! I was only giving orders to Bessier (a non-player character) and occasionally a few other NPC divisions whose existence I would promptly forget, plus my (not-on-map) HQ, i.e. following me around personally as I left Bess behind occasionally to go talk to Marshals in range.

It has been no small amusement for me to watch poor Klein meandering around hoping someone will adopt him! He finally, like a cat, decided to attach himself to me (via Cyrano's choice I suppose) and started sending me messages (actually Cy role playing him), and I was completely confused where Klein was, and why he was sending me messages. Whether I eventually put him and my sadly patient arty city to good use, or any other NPC divisions which I may or may not have forgotten about, remains to be seen...  :hide:


I don't think there's any point my adding transcripts from my notes up to the current AAR position, since the most important ones can be found at Jim's "Davout" thread lately anyway. (I occasionally cc'd him information from meeting with Bern and Aug once I ascertained our security of communication.) But I'll poke through and see what else I can find, perhaps involving East Wing.
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Pinetree

I'll post my dispatches for the current days tonight after work.
Gen. Montgomery: "Your men don't salute much."
Gen. Freyberg: "Well, if you wave at them they'll usually wave back."

JasonPratt

Looking back over my notes, as Bern, Aug and I are sitting on or near the T-fork south of Weimar, the important thing to understand is that WE STILL HAVE NO IDEA WHERE THE MAIN PRUSSIAN FORCES ARE.

In my head they have always nearly certainly been anchored on Weimar, whether left or right of it (or just all around it generally), if not working their way back to Berlin to shorten their lines -- and not only did I doubt for gameplay reasons the players would agree to that, but reports of fighting to my far west and east inductively indicated that the Prussians were not withdrawing.

So I believed we had to assume until or unless we discovered otherwise, that they were on the Weimar road axis generally, since neither meeting on west or east sounded very strongly Prussian to me. (At this point I had finally received word from West Wing about events, and while I wouldn't be totally sure what happened until near the end of our Weimar meeting I could tell they hadn't whupped the whole Prussian army. ;) )

As we know now, not only had they not been in Weimar, but they were trying to maneuver to take a stand more around Leipzig. Which movements we kept interfering with, due to advanced starting positions for many of their divisions.

Now as I'm conferring with Bern and Aug on the very early morning of the 15th, I get word of a substantial number of Prussians in Weimar. AT LAST, EVIDENCE OF THE MAIN FORCE, WOO HOO! (Not really, as we know now.) Therefore I was keen to figure out a broad advance-to-contact along the Weimar - Jena road, which would allow us to start a frontal battle, and from there our East and/or West Wings could win the operation for us.

Instead the one corps in Weimar, apparently unaware of Central Thrust at all per se, hikes stakes and evacuates while we're getting into position.  #:-)

Thus Central Thrust falls foul for the first time (and I think also the last time) into that factor which so tickled Cyrano, of the Prussians screwing over our plans by retreating.

That being said, we were advancing steadily and, mostly, without incurring fatigue while the Prussians were (largely) running high fatigue numbers. We managed to get into a cycle where we would probe forward during the day and the Prussians would withdraw often at night, and for more hours than we were marching (sometimes over more cross-country than we were generally using). One upshot is that Bern, Aug and I soon become the strategic reserve.


Reading the Prussian threads, I will also observe that if we did end up winning one unique contributing factor would seem to be this: that the French had planned our advances in such a way that we could get together for direct communication (without courier) more often. Not all of us at once of course, but Ney and Soult on the East Wing developed interior lines; so did Central Thrust; so did West Wing to a large degree.

Despite our broad knock-on-all-doors advance, we kept more interior lines for more of the game.

I will allow myself jussssssssst a smidgen of satisfaction for making arrangements with this in view.  :coolsmiley:
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
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MetalDog

Do you have evidence to support our high fatigue numbers?  I was always under the impression that we were well within range of no more than normal for each day.
And the One Song to Rule Them All is Gimme Shelter - Rolling Stones


"If its a Balrog, I don't think you get an option to not consent......." - bob

Barthheart

Yeah, I think I was the only one running on high fatigue and that was because of the almost constant combat I was in from the 13th on.

JasonPratt

As we were trying to maneuver into a frontal advance against a presumed Prussian front on the Weimar - Jena axis, I received word from Bernadotte (who has naturally gotten into position first) that his advance elements at Jena found no one. As far as I'm concerned that's great, as it allows us to better flank a more contracted Prussian line in and around Weimar.

Since we don't have threads from Bern and Aug's players yet, I'll post a dispatch I sent to them concerning news I had received from the wings, which gives an idea of what Central Thrust could see (somewhat vaguely and incorrectly) around us.


********************* Napoleon to Bernadotte, Augereau  0300 16th October

Marshals of the Center Thrust:

Allow me to catch you up on reports I have received from the West and East Wings.

In the East (as possibly Bernadotte already knows), Soult has reported chasing three divisions and a large artillery group into Zwickau, camping outside south of the city on the evening of the 14th. Their plan was to pass through Zwickau on the road to Altenbourg, as per the general East Wing plan, where they may be by this past evening of the 15th or close. The next and more major city north along this path is Leipzig. Whether this partial corps, identified as Hohenlohe will turn and fight at any point, is unknown; also whether Army Group Louis or Flanc Taunzien (no small groups of cav and infantry combined) have been accounted for. They are not, evidently, on either of the roads prosecuted by East Wing so far, or else have been cut off from command by being bypassed.

Ney, who as the closer commander is acting as the communication node, arrived at Gera, southwest of Altenbourg, a little after mid-morning yesterday, and so should also be in position near Altenbourg tonight. Whether he has caught the retreating Hohen in a pincer is yet unknown.

What _is_ known is that more than half of Hohen's corps, possibly all of it, is not helping protect Weimar; nor by Bernadotte's cavalry report tonight were they in Jena, since our esteemed fellow reports that his General Tilly has entered the city and found no enemy! (Most of Bern's corps is camping on the road south of Jena.)

It is possible that Hohen may attempt to link back up with the main Prussia force via Jena. Bernadotte should keep a blocking infantry there tomorrow to guard his rear until we understand Hohen's disposition more clearly.

Relatedly, Ney has left a division behind (I'm not sure which yet, possibly my infantry guard which I seconded to him) at Neustadt to guard lines of communication with us, and to provide flexibility in case we need it at Jena. Whichever division this is, I shall send orders to detach from Ney, if it is still there, and move it up to Jena tomorrow, or rather up to Bernadotte to assist him, since with Bern having secured the line to Jena it should now help secure the line farther north.

Augereau's Dragoon leader Klein (seconded off to him from Murat as the latter passed by on the way to the West Wing), has reported an attempt yesterday morning to probe toward us from Weimar, but I have heard nothing further from this side of our advance since then. I do not think Augereau, due to traffic at the T-fork, has positioned his corps far up the road to Weimar yet. You should advance tomorrow prepared for battle, I think, albeit a probing advance.

My cavalry and artillery have not cleared the T-fork yet, but my HQ is camped about 5 km up the road from the T-fork toward Jena, in order to provide a better communication link between you both. I will not advance north cross country toward the Weimar-Jena road tomorrow until my units arrive and I can ascertain their condition.

In the West, Murat has reported the destruction of Ruchel's corps as an operational group near Erfurt. In accordance with the Main Plan, he will wait to rest his cavalry for a day (possibly yesterday, possibly today, I'm not sure), and then begin moving them north in a broad probing encircle around behind Weimar. West Wing command, per the plan, will be handed to Davout, who with the rest of West Wing will begin probing toward Weimar from Erfurt.

My order summary shall be this:

1.) Augereau: deploy out of column for a probing march north along the road toward Weimar, to make recon contact with the enemy. If you see them already engaged with West Wing's probe, you may begin full combat operations on your own recognizance.

2.) Bernadotte: I'm going to send orders to whichever division remains at Neustadt to attach to you from Ney's command. Ideally you should secure Jena, and probe west toward Weimar as you see fit, and possibly probe east toward Altenbourg (if you have the units handy) to see if Ney and Soult need any help nailing down Hohen. Ideally you'd take your cavalry and most of your infantry west back toward Weimar, and leave one infantry at Jena to backstop in case Hohen tries reconnecting that way.

3.) I will move up to the intended central point on the road, and wait for my units to arrive, whereupon I will either move north across country in accordance with yesterday's plan, or else wait for them to rest if they need it (although I gather waiting around yesterday they got plenty of it).

East and West Wing shall proceed on their own orders as previously.

Today may not be the decisive battle, but today may shape it!

Napoleon
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JasonPratt

Quote from: MetalDog on May 19, 2018, 09:33:09 PM
Do you have evidence to support our high fatigue numbers?  I was always under the impression that we were well within range of no more than normal for each day.

Ruchel of course; then the corps on the far East Road, whoever that was. Cyrano has said in his videos that they were running fatigued due to long and night movement, although they managed to recover some energy once at... Altenbourg? Wherever they chose to take a stand against Ney and Soult. Then the dice edged against them and they were fleeing at high fatigue toward Leipzig.

Whoever moved into Weimar temporarily, and then into Naumbourg, where they got murdered, seemed per Cy's report to be having some fatigue trouble before we slammed into their encampment, and after that naturally their fatigue was going to be in big trouble.

However, the two large pockets up near Leipzig and southeast, weren't moving around a lot and were able to rest a lot, so no fatigue there of course. (I don't know about the reserve division coming down from Madgebourg. Cyrano gives the impression that they might be accruing fatigue but maybe not.)

East Wing, now running on the edge of fatigue themselves, is about to bounce right into Leipzig's defenders, and that's going to be a problem for us since those ARE well rested.
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

Barthheart

Quote from: JasonPratt on May 19, 2018, 09:43:28 PM
...
Whoever moved into Weimar temporarily, and then into Naumbourg, where they got murdered, seemed per Cy's report to be having some fatigue trouble before we slammed into their encampment, and after that naturally their fatigue was going to be in big trouble.
...

That was me, Ruchel's Saxe and Weimar Divisions, again.  :P

JasonPratt

^ Oh, hah! Ouch, man. In my head that was Blucher.

I notice in my dispatch that Cyrano must have advised me that my artillery existed, but don't worry, I'll promptly forget it by the time we're in Weimar...  :buck2:

That dispatch, by the way, reveals why (as you see in the video) I sent orders to pick up that spare division left behind by Ney -- that wasn't for me, I sent it to Bernadotte, because I figured (a) he'd be in better position to send it back to Ney soon if needed (I wasn't sure he wouldn't have to march to help East Wing soon himself); and (b) we still didn't know how much fighting Bern would have to do from the East against the (imagined) Weimar defenders, so I wanted him to be as hulked up as possible.

As it happened, Gaudamme (or whatever his name was) would have been much more helpful sooner had East Wing's courier gotten there sooner, or if I had just forgotten about him altogether. ;) But I wasn't trying to hamper East Wing. I was trying to prepare for the decisive battle I thought we should prepare to expect at Weimar.
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
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James Sterrett

Quote from: JasonPratt on May 19, 2018, 09:27:11 PM
Looking back over my notes, as Bern, Aug and I are sitting on or near the T-fork south of Weimar, the important thing to understand is that WE STILL HAVE NO IDEA WHERE THE MAIN PRUSSIAN FORCES ARE.

Yep!  I kept wondering about that, too.

JasonPratt

So, Cyrano's final videos are up, and I'll add a link to them here, and then move on to the next post for a bit of spoiler protection.



http://grogheads.com/aars/18489
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

JasonPratt

Just continuing the scroll a bit to avoid inadvertent peripheral vision spoilers...

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Cyrano says we won, but that it could have been more decisive. That's technically true! -- but it's also technically true that we were within a few hours of a much more decisive win, because "Murat", following a modification of the original Plan, was about to intercept the Prussian LoC, from which he would have nominally ridden back southeast toward Leipzig. Under the final circumstances, that would have been crushing in at least three ways.

(Murat's path around like that also secured against any Prussian surprises, and removed his corps from the logjam going up the road from Weimar to Leipzig via Naumbourg and Weissenfels.)


Like Cyrano, I was a little surprised Augereau didn't finish off the Naumbourg defenders -- I really didn't know what was holding him back there, and worried that there was a larger force in Naumbourg than we had anticipated, but with their LoC cut I wasn't overly worried. Except I didn't quite know or understand what that would mean in game terms since we were playing with quite simplified supply.


What greatly relieved me when watching the videos, was that East Wing (Ney and Soult) had, after all, not fallen at Leipzig!!  :clap: :notworthy:

For whatever reason, I received no couriers from either of them at all in the final part of the game, nor did Bern (who sent a brigade scouting that way specifically hoping to make contact with them!) The last I heard, they had made combat contact south of Leipzig and they thought they could hold out perhaps two days, perhaps three, but that the enemy was clearly too strong to defeat. I think I had sent a courier back to them advising them to take a "fixing" stand as safely as possible to conserve their troops, and that might explain Cyrano's surprise at them digging in on defense outside Leipzig. But my notes aren't handy and I'm not sure. Whatever the reason, they had surely done their jobs well, and continued even by standing still since they were pinning half the remaining Prussian forces in place!

My lack of news from East Wing, actually factored positively strong in how the battle around Weissenfels shaped up. As Cyrano says, Bern and I did intend to march north-north-east down the river valleys (several creeks there) toward Leipzig to find East Wing if we hadn't heard from them, since that would suggest they badly needed help and after all a monstrous hammer of French corps was already advancing on the road to our southwest so was I wasn't too worried about their safety. I did however start to worry about our safety, since we'd be paralleling the road to Leipzig from (what was eventually decided to be) Weissenfels, and it occurred to me that if the Prussians weren't pulling back to defend their LoC yet they would be defending that road as a corridor along which to pull the whole remaining Prussian army back into Leipzig. Consequently, Bern and I might end up with the Prussians pivoting in a counter-march southward and snapping shut behind us! Then it would be a race to see if the Center Thrust (now combined mostly with West Wing) would be able to breach the pocket in time before the Prussians destroyed us in that river valley.

In other words, I still needed to know where the Prussians were and their orientations before I went to help East Wing. So I continued on with Klein's dragoons toward Weiss and found the other half of the remaining Prussians gathering there.

I should add here that Bern and I were marching all night long to loop around through Jena (after a quick stop there to confer together) in order to arrive at that position in time to start linking up with Lannes and Davout. Bern's group took the corrosive march-stealing well, but I had to park my Imperial Cavalry for the next day to recover, and Klein's cavalry was on the edge of being worthless.

This factor also prevented me from taking one of my cav divisions and tracing the road toward Leipzig, to find East Wing and to generally discover how protected that road was: poor Klein was in no position to protect us, or even to help East Wing much.

Trust Ruchel, i.e. Barthheart (Vance Strickland), to mess with us substantially EVEN WITH HIS CORPS IN TATTERS!!  O0 :coolsmiley: His fake courier didn't fool anyone about where he had come from -- we know Murat would deal with that anyway -- but what Cyrano forgot to mention, and what DID cause us (or me anyway) some problems, was the courier's message about Prussian divisions to our south!

While I suspected this was garbled Prussian information, or even deliberate misinformation, I couldn't be sure because, after all, I had misplaced a couple of divisions back there, specifically to plug a counter-advance opportunity. Notice I said "mis-placed": I didn't really know where our own spare divisions were back there, because as NPCs they weren't sending out couriers with status reports.

More importantly, when I got that word about indications of Prussians to our south, I hadn't heard anything from East Wing.

Consequently, I spent the final two days of battle around Weissenfels wondering if my camping Imperial Cavalry would end up screening us from a Prussian envelopment, thrusting back down the eastern side of the map over the routing divisions of East Wing. But worse, if East Wing had fallen then we had no real way of stopping the Prussians from winding up a spare division and blasting it alone back down the map to snap all our supply lines while the French attack on Weiss was itself enveloped by the rest of the avenging Prussians!

So I took Ruchel's maskirovka quite seriously, because under the circumstances (which Barth probably wasn't in any position to know about) I had to. Ultimately it didn't make any difference, except perhaps this: in the final day, I put myself in the final flanking attacks on the center and left sectors, telling Cyrano that if it helped at all then have me personally lead the charge, too. I needed Weissenfels put out of action pronto, and I was willing to risk my own (character's) life to do it.

All because of a bit of rumor that we had Prussians to our south, and I hadn't heard from Ney and Soult.

I think this sheds all the light I can contribute to Cyrano's videos.
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
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PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
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RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

Cyrano

You raise an excellent point and one I deliberated on a lot.  I didn't want to end it just for the sake of ending it -- 18 months notwithstanding -- but looking over the map, and looking at the victory conditions, I felt the Prussians would have had enough.  I was keeping a weather eye on Halle as the videos will attest, but Murat wouldn't have won that fight in a walk.  I think he would have won, but it bears remembering that Wurtembourg's is a BIG division and it was fresh.  In part for that reason, I think the Prussians would have withdrawn it to prevent total collapse. 
Sergeant at Arms of La Fraternite des Boutons Carres

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You didn't know? My Corps has already sailed to Berlin. We got there 3 days ago and we've been in the Tiergarten on the piss ever since. -- Marshal Soult, October 1806