Author Topic: Wizards and Warlords  (Read 5013 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline FarAway Sooner

  • Man-at-Arms
  • *****
  • Posts: 1541
Re: Wizards and Warlords
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2021, 05:45:07 PM »
Sure, I'll give it a try.  It's hard to describe them without going into too much detail.

The sheer variety of things you can do with a Hero makes for interesting trade-off decisions.  There are literally dozens of options to choose from (everything from "Join a party to chase the Balrog out of that Dungeon" to "Serve as the Wizard's Bodyguard" to "Search [this province] for a Monster Lair" to "Serve as the General (or Quartermaster) of [that army]" to "Do whatever you want").  Some of the mechanics are still in development or not yet documented, but there's the potential for rich role playing here.

"Culture" matters as much as Race, in terms of what kind of units and Heroes you can recruit, and what kinds of traits they might have.

Civilians aren't wholly abstracted--Workers have their own Race and skills, and you can grow, train, and level them up just like you would combat units, with particular skill sets that develop along the way. Do you want your unit of Dwarf Workers to be a Jorin-of-all-Trades or a specialist in Mining who couldn't find a thing to eat in the middle of an Apple Orchard? 

Heroes interact with where they're stationed.  If you build a Library in your Wizard's Tower and then station a Mage Hero there, the Mage will gain XP faster than if you put Stables there.  Heroes also interact with their assignments (so they'll want some jobs more than others and won't just do your bidding--the job itself affects their loyalty and the rate of XP gain).

There's a richer variety of NPC factions, as opposed to just Wandering Monsters and Rival Wizards. 

These are just some examples.  As the dev admits, not all of these features are fully fleshed out just yet.  But the possibilities are tantalizing and I've had great fun playing around with some of the different mechanisms to see how they work!
« Last Edit: June 03, 2021, 05:47:06 PM by FarAway Sooner »

Offline Jarhead0331

  • Judge Advocate General
  • Administrator
  • Arquebusier
  • *
  • Posts: 15094
  • Global Moderator, General Counsel, Heavy Weapons
Re: Wizards and Warlords
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2021, 05:54:43 PM »
^wow. That does sound very impressive. Does it have an empire building component with conquest, developing cities and recruiting armies with different types of units?
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


Offline nobodyjune61944

  • Velites
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Re: Wizards and Warlords
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2021, 06:41:58 PM »
Sure, I'll give it a try.  It's hard to describe them without going into too much detail.

The sheer variety of things you can do with a Hero makes for interesting trade-off decisions.  There are literally dozens of options to choose from (everything from "Join a party to chase the Balrog out of that Dungeon" to "Serve as the Wizard's Bodyguard" to "Search [this province] for a Monster Lair" to "Serve as the General (or Quartermaster) of [that army]" to "Do whatever you want").  Some of the mechanics are still in development or not yet documented, but there's the potential for rich role playing here.

"Culture" matters as much as Race, in terms of what kind of units and Heroes you can recruit, and what kinds of traits they might have.

Civilians aren't wholly abstracted--Workers have their own Race and skills, and you can grow, train, and level them up just like you would combat units, with particular skill sets that develop along the way. Do you want your unit of Dwarf Workers to be a Jorin-of-all-Trades or a specialist in Mining who couldn't find a thing to eat in the middle of an Apple Orchard? 

Heroes interact with where they're stationed.  If you build a Library in your Wizard's Tower and then station a Mage Hero there, the Mage will gain XP faster than if you put Stables there.  Heroes also interact with their assignments (so they'll want some jobs more than others and won't just do your bidding--the job itself affects their loyalty and the rate of XP gain).

There's a richer variety of NPC factions, as opposed to just Wandering Monsters and Rival Wizards. 

These are just some examples.  As the dev admits, not all of these features are fully fleshed out just yet.  But the possibilities are tantalizing and I've had great fun playing around with some of the different mechanisms to see how they work!

Yet another owned, but unplayed game.
Like Warplan - sounds great but as of yet unplayed.

Offline Myrmidon

  • Equites
  • ***
  • Posts: 154
Re: Wizards and Warlords
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2021, 07:50:00 PM »
^wow. That does sound very impressive. Does it have an empire building component with conquest, developing cities and recruiting armies with different types of units?

Yes, yes and yes. 

It's definitely a complete game, but a work in progress, if that makes any sense?  The sky is the limit with this one as far as potential goes.  There are weekly updates, and outstanding communication from the dev in the steam game forum.  His roadmap is ambitious, but will be incredible when realized.  This is right up there with Dwarf Fortress in my book, with a dedicated developer bringing procedural generation to a fantasy war game. 

Offline FarAway Sooner

  • Man-at-Arms
  • *****
  • Posts: 1541
Re: Wizards and Warlords
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2021, 10:38:46 AM »
As a bit of a reality check, there are those components there, but I'll be danged if I've been able to figure them all out yet. 

You can annex unpopulated provinces (and then start building resource sites) by building an Outpost and then upgrading it to a Fortress (takes lots of Food and Lumber!).  You can also establish a small town in a province that you own, but doing so takes more Food than I've ever been able to gather (I assume I need to build some structure in my Wizards Tower to hold enough Food, but if there's something else holding me up in the interface I don't know what it is).

I think the only way to integrate a province with a neutral town into your Empire is to conquer it.  You can try to vassalize them (so they pay tithes and occasionally contribute a unit) if you have good enough relations with them, but the benefits are kinda meager and it's unclear how my obligations to a Vassal province might work in game play.  The Dev has mentioned he wants a diplomatic path for formal annexation, but it's not in the game yet.

There's also a Quest system, where different characteristics of different heroes contribute (or detract) from their ability to face particular types of challenges (e.g., Battle, Magical, Social, Urban, Rural), but the only part of the system that I've encountered yet in game play is clearing dungeons (which is a string of Battle challenges over the course of multiple terms).

The Dev freely admits these limits in his interactions with the online community and has plans for them all, but as he also admits, "plan" just means it hasn't happened yet!

Offline Myrmidon

  • Equites
  • ***
  • Posts: 154
Re: Wizards and Warlords
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2021, 06:44:17 PM »
As a bit of a reality check, there are those components there, but I'll be danged if I've been able to figure them all out yet. 

You can annex unpopulated provinces (and then start building resource sites) by building an Outpost and then upgrading it to a Fortress (takes lots of Food and Lumber!).  You can also establish a small town in a province that you own, but doing so takes more Food than I've ever been able to gather (I assume I need to build some structure in my Wizards Tower to hold enough Food, but if there's something else holding me up in the interface I don't know what it is).


The balance of missing food (which is often significant), can be made up by paying gold at the current market value.  Otherwise, a number of farms on fertile soil need to be cultivated, which requires lumber...It gets a little expensive to buy the food off the market, but it's doable, as there are often more ways of making money than growing food sometimes.  I agree though, that often conquering neighboring settlements is quicker. 

There are a number of development options for a settlement, but like you, I've barely scratched the surface. 

Offline nobodyjune61944

  • Velites
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Re: Wizards and Warlords
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2021, 08:39:11 PM »
Can anyone provide links to some good FAQs or Strategy Guides for this game?  I bought it 2 sales ago, but have been daunted by the level of detail and the poor documentation.

Offline Valravn

  • Hoplite
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Wizards and Warlords
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2021, 05:51:06 AM »
Can anyone provide links to some good FAQs or Strategy Guides for this game?  I bought it 2 sales ago, but have been daunted by the level of detail and the poor documentation.

Basic Guide: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2180432315
Grid-Based Battles: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2503698124
Reference Manual: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2254789382

I don't always manage to keep them up-to-date, as I focus on improving the in-game tool tips, help and general usability, and there are only so many hours in a day. But the general gist is in there. I've also added an Advisor function in-game (for Wizards only at this time). It will give you some suggestions on what to do, and can also be used to help learn the game. It has only existed for a short time, so is not suited as the primary method of learning, but the plan is try and make it one of the primary ways to ease new players into the game.

There is also this video by Halberdman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggFzbxsxE0M

The series by DasTactic is somewhat dated, so I would not start with that one, despite him being a great content creator.

If you have any thoughts on what format / content you would prefer to help get you started on the game (apart from adding more in-game help and tooltips), I'm very curious. There are limits to how approachable I can ever manage to make the game, but I'd like to do as much as I can with the time and (lack of) budget I have available.

Offline Rayfer

  • Condottieri
  • ******
  • Posts: 2694
Re: Wizards and Warlords
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2021, 10:15:58 AM »
Can anyone provide links to some good FAQs or Strategy Guides for this game?  I bought it 2 sales ago, but have been daunted by the level of detail and the poor documentation.

Ditto....I even went so far as to get a Steam refund (which was approved).  I was mistaken in thinking this was a lite/casual 4X game to just have some fun with, but found it to be very complex game with a steep learning curve.  This is not a criticism of the game, it just wasn't what I was looking for.

Offline Valravn

  • Hoplite
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Wizards and Warlords
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2021, 10:42:31 AM »
Ditto....I even went so far as to get a Steam refund (which was approved).  I was mistaken in thinking this was a lite/casual 4X game to just have some fun with, but found it to be very complex game with a steep learning curve.  This is not a criticism of the game, it just wasn't what I was looking for.

For what it's worth, I am really glad that Steam provides this service. I don't want players feeling like they've wasted their money on a game that wasn't what they expected. The main reason that I haven't put up the game for sale on my own website is that I am not sure I would be able to seamlessly handle refunds in the same manner.

The game certainly isn't casual, and while I certainly intend to smooth out the learning curve with coming updates, the game will likely remain on the 'heavier' side of indie games. So I don't take any offense when players express sentiments such as yours. I get a bit sad when I see players frustrated and feeling dumb, stating that they do want a complex game, but cannot manage to navigate the UI and mechanics. It happens less often these days than 6 months ago, but I am still acutely aware that a large chunk of my development time for updates has to go into usability, guides, documentation and smoothing out mechanics that are needlessly complex.

Offline ArizonaTank

  • Man-at-Arms
  • *****
  • Posts: 1970
  • Honus Wagner - "The Flying Dutchman"
Re: Wizards and Warlords
« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2021, 10:12:49 AM »
...
The game certainly isn't casual, and while I certainly intend to smooth out the learning curve with coming updates, the game will likely remain on the 'heavier' side of indie games.
...

I very much appreciate you making and supporting this game. We all know that there are few devs working with big publishers who are allowed to experiment with complexity and the heretical idea that you don't need photo-realistic graphics to have a great game. So kudos to you...and looking forward to where WW is going.

My only ask would be that if you could throw in some elements of SSI's old "Sword of Aragon," that would be something. Particularly building, equipping and training units.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 10:16:17 AM by ArizonaTank »
Honus Wagner
"The Flying Dutchman"
Shortstop: Pittsburgh Pirates 1900-1917
Rated as the 2nd most valuable player of all time by Bill James.

Offline Valravn

  • Hoplite
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Wizards and Warlords
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2021, 11:21:28 AM »
My only ask would be that if you could throw in some elements of SSI's old "Sword of Aragon," that would be something. Particularly building, equipping and training units.

I've never tried, or even heard of that game, despite years of SSI fanboy-ism. I'll look it up and see what inspiration can be drawn. There is a surprising amount of game design concepts that were executed quite well in older games, but because of low sales and/or other issues, they were just forgotten and never picked up again.

As for building/equipping units - that is something I have plans to add. The current 'build-a-golem' system is very popular, and I would like something similar for mundane units. Ideally as an element to make Warlord gameplay more appealing and feel like more than just a Wizard with no spells, but with some kind of access to Wizards as well (possibly gated by traits, game settings and/or modding). The main blocker is UI. The game code works with equipment and mounts as distinct entities and the attacks/effects from weapons and armor are not 'baked in' to units. So once UI and some kind of system governing cost/availability of equipment and other configuration options is in place, it's really just ready to go.

It's always a challenge to prioritize the list of 'stuff I want to add' with 'stuff I need to fix'. Today, for example, I implemented rolling autosave files, where you can use a setting to configure how many previous autosaves are stored. I also implemented a migration the save game files from all residing in a single folder to having a folder per 'campaign'. A few bug fixes and tweaks on top of this and there are no more hours left in the day. I'm constantly tempted to implement new and shiny things, but due to a combination of my style of development and the fact that I'm just one person, I have a fairly long list of usability and 'depth' work that I must not forget about.

But unit customization will eventually be added. Thank you for the pointer towards Sword of Aragon. I look forward to seeing what I missed out on back when there were far more SSI games than I could ever hope to afford.

Offline FarAway Sooner

  • Man-at-Arms
  • *****
  • Posts: 1541
Re: Wizards and Warlords
« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2021, 12:11:44 AM »
Just to give you guys a feel for the pace of development, the following patch was dropped 8 days after the most recent patch.  Patches generally come out every 3-5 days but are a bit smaller (not dramatically so).

Major Lairs: New game setting. If enabled these will be generated according to world settings. Non-Warlord players (human and AI) cannot build in a province with an active major lair. You can clear them by moving an army to the lair and attacking it. Random monsters are generated based on terrain and world settings.

Dungeons no longer block construction of a site in the same hex. Selection cycling will shift display of the active entity in the hex. This means that undiscovered dungeons will no longer block site construction, confusing new players and alerting seasoned players to the dungeon location.

Custom construct unit types can now be deleted from the recruitment 'roster' (via the context menu).

New monster: Bonnacons. Pestilence 5, Fire 5, Beasts 3. Reasonably cheap to research. Decent survival, but low for a monster-type unit. However, it has strong multi-damage type attacks at range and in melee.

New monster: Wyverns. Bad-tempered lesser dragon-kin with poison stinger.

Armies added to the new right-click context menu logic.

Added sub-menu functionality to the context menu code to accommodate army actions (when multiple armies are in a hex, they will get an item each with an attached sub-menu, to save space).

AoE attack resolution now considers physical size of target and attacker in a better way.

Non-optional notifications (level up, some events) can now be postponed until later during the player turn. You can open the option dialog and then choose a 'postpone' option, and thus no longer be forced to make a choice once you've opened it.

Cursor is now brightened when hovering over a link which can be clicked to navigate to the relevant object (ie a character or army). Hyperlinks really.

New spell: Unstoppable Assault. Destruction 9. Progress siege of City or Fortress (not Wizard Tower) instantly to 100%. Any fortification-style buildings in a City are destroyed. Fortresses will be reduced to the lowest level (Fort).

Added 'inspect' context menu item for Character Elements. Currently only active in Dungeon Window.

Added Divine Favor to one branch of the Forbidden Tome dungeon reward event. (Burning it).

Added tooltip to the 'Request Gift' diplomacy action where independent realms want stuff. Also added Capital City if you know it. Both of these are clickable links (allowing you to navigate to their respective UI).

Editor now has a 'big brush' mode for Province hex add mode.

Nerfed the incredibly overpowered Djinni (who were even more overpowered with the AoE fix).

Fixed 'Back' button in the Followers window being unable to navigate Back to anything not an Army.

Fixed Draconic Lore not properly considering the non-Spellcraft projects for discovery bonuses.

Fixed Wizard Towers having a no-effect Leader Office.

Fixed a bug causing the notification text replacing 'Next Turn' to go missing. These are the ones shown when a pending non-optional notification/choice is pending attention.

Fixed a number of crash bugs related army deployment configuration.

Fixed a crash bug related to merging units.

Fixed a crash bug related to the Shatter spell.

Fixed an issue causing world seeds to not be very stable across patches except for geography.

Fixed targeting of Empowered Furnaces.

Fixed AoE attacks usually not doing any AoE damage at all.



Save Game Management
Rolling auto-saves: You can now choose to autosave more than the latest turn. By setting the number of files to something higher than 1, the auto-saves will store the last number of turns accordingly.
Save file folder structure: Each 'campaign' now has a folder under a save folder within the main persistent data folder. Previously all save files were put in the same folder, which could lead to overwriting files by accident. It was also a mess when you needed to manually interact with files in the folder (bug reports, modding). Existing save files are migrated automatically to the new structure.
Delete save group: You can now delete a full group of save files (ie all save files for a particular campaign). This makes cleaning up old save games much faster and less annoying.
Confirm dialog on deleting files. A checkbox on each file dialog allows you to disable this if you need to delete a lot of files.