Was visiting Matrix's site for other reasons tonight, and ran across the first developer diary for their remake/reboot of the granddaddy of MoM successors... MASTER OF MAGIC!
https://www.matrixgames.com/news/master-of-magic-development-diary-1-june-2021
It is definitely a remake; and definitely an update; and the devs were responsible for the very quirky MoM-ish game series of Thea (The Awakening and The Shattering), which were about as unlike a MoM-style game as could be imagined. (And I mean that in a complimentary way.)
I can't say this entirely surprises me, because a few years ago Matrix acquired the rights, somehow, to the original MoM and quietly started selling it, including on Steam, with engine upgrades to work on modern computers. (And with an epic fan patch included for free.) Publishers sometimes resurrect dead or dying IPs when they're preparing a remake, and Matrix-litherine definitely have done this in the past.
My question is...... why bother anymore exactly?
MoM used to be the very devil to try to remake/redesign -- and I have no clear idea why that used to be so difficult (much like trying to remake/redesign another classic Microprose game from that era, the original XCOM/UFO, which come to think of it hasn't really been accomplished yet either). But ever since Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic (when random maps could be generated at last), the MoM successors have been making playable bug-free stable games which have not only gotten fairly close to replicating the gameplay (such as the return of multiple figures in units for AoW3), but which have gone off successfully in new variant directions (perhaps most successfully with the Dominions series since at least Dom3 when random maps could be generated at last.)
Why go back to the original anymore? Was there that much about the original which was so different and distinctive in its mix, worthy of a remake-date?
Look, I love MoM, played it to death -- I especially love how it married Civ-style gameplay (which by the way I never played at the time) with a fantasy engine which for details borrowed heavily from the early iterations of Magic: the Gathering (and indeed only a year or two later Microprose released the legendary Shandalar campaign engine for MTG -- now THERE'S something that could stand a dedicated remake-update! Why Wizards of the Coast have never bothered doing so boggles my mind...)
But... I dunno, I want to cheer them for the attempt, and I'd like it to succeed, but would I really play this game when we have so much more now?
One thing I can say in its favor, maybe: Lord knows I haven't played all the MoM successors, but out of the ones I've stuck with playing I've noticed that buffing your units with enchantments has become a pretty rare game mechanic. Whereas in MoM, if you weren't buffing your units on a regular basis, you were probably going to lose!
Hi Jason
Well as someone who never played the original MoM (before my time PC gaming wise) I am looking forward to it and I guess as well as the nostalic crowd there will be a whole generation like me who have heard of the original game spoken in reverential terms and will want to see what the fuss is about.
Whilst I am no graphics junkie, the currently available versions of the old game are a non starter and I do like the images shown by the Thea devs of the new game. It may be a turkey or a triumph but I do think the interest will be there.
^Me too...MoM was before I owned a PC. So this remake is right up my street.
I still have the old game, manuals and all. If they would update the graphics, improve the AI and make it mouse friendly then they would have a hit.
I'm not so sure that they would. MoM is on my top three of all-time favorite games, but there has been A LOT of innovation in the Fantasy 4X space since then. Simply reskinning the graphics and updating the AI would still leave me unlikely to buy the new game, as much as I loved the original.
You don't need A TON of innovations to make a new 4X game work, but you can't pretend like the genre hasn't evolved. Simply leveling up my heroes and units to get more Attack and Defense won't satisfy ever since Heroes of Might & Magic invented branching skill trees 20+ years ago. A simple "pick your tile and get x-Food and y-Resources, or x+a-Food and y+b-Resources if you build a structure" mechanic has been surpassed by games like Endless Legend or Deity Empires. Researching spells in place of techs was a nice touch in 1995, but I'd want more than that now.
A good sandbox mode is critical for games that rely on PvP, but most good single-player games need some kind of Campaign or story arc to enrich them (the Thea games really shined in this regard). An end-game enemy seems to be a staple in most 4x games these days.
I'm excited that Matrix is trying their hand at a Fantasy 4x. The fact that they paid for the MoM title suggests that they won't skimp on resources for this. At this stage, the IP doesn't matter too much to me one or way or another. I figure they probably did the math and thought, "Do we get a better return-on-investment by buying the IP for this much-beloved title, or plowing that money into advertising in an effort to build a target audience for a new title?"
Acquiring the MoM IP, certainly fits the marketing theory of positioning! I guess it worked with Fantasy General?
Quote from: solops on June 26, 2021, 12:14:53 PM
I still have the old game, manuals and all. If they would update the graphics, improve the AI and make it mouse friendly then they would have a hit.
This is indeed what they're doing, along with some UI quality-of-life. They're being VERY faithful to the content of the original game.
Matrix has had sci-fi and sci-fant 4X games before (WH40K: Gladius being arguably their biggest hit in that genre), but I'm fuzzy about whether they've had a pure fantasy 4X already.
Sovereignty might count? -- but even if it did, it's so buggy it kind of doesn't?
Quote from: Gusington on June 26, 2021, 09:33:32 AM
^Me too...MoM was before I owned a PC. So this remake is right up my street.
u sure ;)
Wow, thanks for sharing! I'm very cautiously optimistic, as I think I'd enjoy the updated experience, but have been let down by a number of proclaimed "successors to MoM" that have come and gone in the past.
Quote from: FarAway Sooner on June 27, 2021, 03:01:06 PM
A good sandbox mode is critical for games that rely on PvP, but most good single-player games need some kind of Campaign or story arc to enrich them (the Thea games really shined in this regard). An end-game enemy seems to be a staple in most 4x games these days.
Totally agree. Either a decent story arc, or a very good procedural generation program that can create a world and bring it to life. I think Wizards and Warlords has done a great job bringing this to the fantasy 4x genre, along with a bunch of other great innovations.
Quote from: JasonPratt on June 27, 2021, 04:57:47 PM
Matrix has had sci-fi and sci-fant 4X games before (WH40K: Gladius being arguably their biggest hit in that genre), but I'm fuzzy about whether they've had a pure fantasy 4X already. Sovereignty might count? -- but even if it did, it's so buggy it kind of doesn't?
Man, I still wince every time I see Sovereignty in my games list. I think there was a ton of potential there that just never got polished and ironed out. I wish there was some way the devs could have salvaged that game. It had a lot of good going for it. If they'd perhaps at least release some source coding, perhaps some motivated modders could save it? I don't know. Just wish it wasn't left in the state that it was.
On further consideration, I feel like Sov might be better classified as a boardgame-like design, not a 4x per se.
So the MoM remake/update might be Matrixlitherine's first fantasy 4x after all. (Well, other than MoM itself I suppose, once they bought the rights to the original.)
I'm necroing this thread to see if anybody got around to playing the DLC for this update, the "Caster of Magic" download that started off as a community-based mod and has gradually morphed into a separate product? As has already been discussed in this thread, MoM was one of the all-time greats in terms of defining fantasy 4x titles, but the handful of reviews I've seen on Steam suggest only modest embellishments to the UI and an update to graphics.
Has anybody played this title with the Caster of Magic DLC? Both are on sale right now for <$10 together.
I have it but have not played enough to have an opinion. I just have too many good games. Right now, Shadow Empire is killing everything else. I cannot even get in more than an hour on TW Warhammer3.
Looks like received release date of December 13th, 2022.
https://www.matrixgames.com/news/master-of-magic-will-return-on-december-13th
bump for release day...in about an hour.
Available on GMG. $39.99 regular price, $31.99 for Bronze XP tier (https://www.greenmangaming.com/xp-offers/the-xp-program/)
https://www.greenmangaming.com/games/master-of-magic-pc/
I'm keeping my eye on that link :/
Quote from: Gusington on December 13, 2022, 10:17:45 AM
I'm keeping my eye on that link :/
optimistic about this one...but holding fire until feedback comes in...
Ditto. Because I get an anniversary coupon!!
Any time a "new" title that hit a home run before is released, the nostalgic fans pile on for the first six months trying to burn it to the ground for not living up to their expectations. It happened with Distant Worlds 2 and with Vicky III in the last six months, it happened with Master of Orion III more than a decade ago, and it ain't going to stop any time soon.
I'm excited to see what the title offers. It'll clearly be a well-funded Fantasy 4x, and there can never be too many of those for me. I'll be curious to see what innovation (if any) it brings to the table. There has been a ton of innovation in the Fantasy 4x realm, whether you look at the turn-based tactical combat of the Age of Wonders series, the complex city dynamics of Deity Empires or Endless Legend, the foraging system of Thea: The Awakening, the RTS battles of Total War: Warhammer, or the crazy complicated magic system of the numerous Dominions titles.
Putting a new skin on MoM won't likely do much. The game system probably needs some time to work the kinks out, but I'm excited to see what the Devs deliver. I'm just not going to pay much attention in the first few months of the game, because the haters will likely be out in force.
Quote from: FarAway Sooner on December 14, 2022, 12:55:36 AM
Any time a "new" title that hit a home run before is released, the nostalgic fans pile on for the first six months trying to burn it to the ground for not living up to their expectations. It happened with Distant Worlds 2 and with Vicky III in the last six months, it happened with Master of Orion III more than a decade ago, and it ain't going to stop any time soon.
I'm excited to see what the title offers. It'll clearly be a well-funded Fantasy 4x, and there can never be too many of those for me. I'll be curious to see what innovation (if any) it brings to the table. There has been a ton of innovation in the Fantasy 4x realm, whether you look at the turn-based tactical combat of the Age of Wonders series, the complex city dynamics of Deity Empires or Endless Legend, the foraging system of Thea: The Awakening, the RTS battles of Total War: Warhammer, or the crazy complicated magic system of the numerous Dominions titles.
Putting a new skin on MoM won't likely do much. The game system probably needs some time to work the kinks out, but I'm excited to see what the Devs deliver. I'm just not going to pay much attention in the first few months of the game, because the haters will likely be out in force.
You got this spot on. It must make developers pull their hair out.
I never played the first one but they have been totally transparent that the game is 95% a graphical and UI update of the original game and NOT of Caster of Magic which was the mod developed over several years adding extra factions/wizards and balancing.
They have changed some battle movement rates and adjusted a couple of spells but it is essentially the original game with better graphics and a full colour well written pdf manual.
Needless to say the haters are piling on for in not having made more changes whilst the traditionalists want the old UI back :uglystupid2:
The Devs are going to add a Steam Workshop very soon I believe and that will maybe quieten a few halfwits down :)
Never played the original myself so I'll have nothing to compare. At some point, will likely pick up but nothing urgent for me at the moment. Will give me time to learn more about it.
I suspect "Caster" will be DLC eventually. This is Matrix after all. ;)
Yeah. If it's simply a reskin, I'll likely hold off until some additional content has been released. I downloaded Caster of Magic about six months ago, but couldn't get past the UI.
I'm still hopeful. But I need to be patient here.
I also never played the original and I like what I am seeing here. Price is a little high so I'll wait for a discount but this looks worth a buy to me.
Reading through the lukewarm reviews, it strikes me that almost all of them are just comparing the game to the past.
I guess what I really want is to know how the game stands on its own...I don't really care much about its lineage.
Does it create that 'oh my gosh, its 3am but I have to do one more turn' effect?
There are a ton of great games in this genre, including the original game; gussied up really nice for Steam a few years back.
I have had a long running multiplayer game of Age of Wonders III with JasonPratt and a few others, that has been going for a couple of years now. AoWIII has grown on me, and scratches the 'magical 4x' game itch nicely...so its going to take a bit of 'magic' to convince me to open my wallet for $39.
In the back of my mind is also the imminent release of SpellForce: Conquest of Eo, which looks awesome and a level or two above this new Master of Magic as far as production values. And I did enjoy the other SpellForce games.
To be fair, the Spellforce games are WAY different in many regards, since they're a combination of RTS and 1/3p action RPG.
Like AzTank said, and I think as I've said before upthread, I don't know why I would buy this when we have AoW3 and some other games now.
Long ago, I would often say -- when complaining about broken and buggy attempts to be the MoM successor -- that if someone would just straight remake MoM with up to date graphics and some UI improvements, they'd be their own successor and people would flock to them. (Similar to XCom.)
But we've had good successors now for years.
Some key innovations which have long since passed MoM by, so not currently included in the faithful update:
1.) the player/wizard now being a character in the game and thus active and vulnerable as an asset on the strategic and tactical maps. Some players could legitimately not wish to bother with this, just having the 'effect' of the player move around between cities through appropriate buildings, but the feature should at least be an option.
2.) win conditions beyond 'remove all allies' or 'cast the I Win spell'.
3.) Diplomatic options have improved generally.
4.) More good map details which make an effect on the game (not only aesthetic).
5.) City sieges don't necessarily affect only one wall direction anymore.
6.) Modding tools.
7.) Story campaigns.
8.) Independent factions not led by the equivalent of a player NPC (wizard). (MoM does have basic indy cities.)
Those are off the top of my head.
I'm sort of feel mixed on this title. I really love the unit art work (I think it's spot on!) that they have done and the UI lay-out, but the world map is 'meh' for me. I love the unit mechanics and how they level but there does not seem to be anything unique about the the units that I saw in the Let's Plays. The game play seems (from Youtubers that I've watched play it) sort of generic to me. In my mind I can see myself playing this game as a 'relaxing' sort of game. More of a time to chill out due to what seems like a more simpler style of play. I'll probably end up buying it but I doubt it will replace any main-stay games that I play regularly like Age of Wonders 3. Now with all that said I'm hoping that some innovative and creative modders do some really cool work in creating some fun and interesting mods. That would be what I would hope for!
One thing MoM still does better than most of its successors, is having 14 factions. They sometimes don't seem very distinct, but expert players who have worked out the mechanics under the hood will know that they do play differently (though not absolutely in any case).
(And yes I know Dominions is fondly laughing at how cute only 14 distinct factions are; I did say "MOST".)
Picking special abilities for your player-wizard is usually more detailed than MoM's successors, tooYES DOMINIONS I CAN SEE YOU CHORTLING, YOU'RE A VERY ADVANCED MOM SUCCESSOR, I KNOW! :P
One of my favorite test-channels, SplattercatGaming, has a typical start for the full release:
I should note that he does not seem to appreciate the two somewhat-subtle superiorities to most successors.
Anyway, if you haven't played the original, or don't recall it well, and you don't want to tie up cash on Steam (or maybe GoG) in credit or lag-time for returning to your pay-source: buy the original MoM -- if Matrix has made it available, but I think they have on Steam at least?? -- DO NOT get the CasteroM free upgrade yet -- play that for an hour-45 minutes, keeping in mind the UI won't be as good.
If you like it enough to feel it has worth compared to modern MoM successors today, but want to pay premium for much better effects and some UI quality improvements, then refund that and get the new version.
I went ahead and picked this up. I played just a tad of Master of Magic back around when it got a GOG release, but I never got as deeply into it as I did Age of Wonders II and III or Dominions 5.
Personally, I dig the laser-focus (or one might say "simplicity") of this game compared to other titles that have been mentioned. There's only a couple resources for me to worry about, and balancing them is straightforward but not necessarily easy. I don't know why, but I like the magic and traits system of MoM a lot better than Age of Wonders. It reminds me more of Dominions where the core system is the magic itself, and the focus of your character creation is how you want to split your investment in different schools of magic. Want to take Fire and Death, or go all-in on Death for those sweet high-level summons? Obviously Dominions is a much more fleshed out version of this idea, but the return to traditional hex-based 4X is a nice breath of fresh air compared to the region-based system in Dominions, which is fine but not as exciting as chit shuffling IMO.
We'll see what I think when I've had more time with the game and gotten my butt handed to me a few times, but I'm happy with this so far as someone who always wanted to get into MoM but never really did. That all said I do miss some improvements and QOL features other commenters have mentioned. Being able to attack a target with multiple stacks at a time is a pretty big one.
Bought.
Never played the first version and I think having seen some you tube stuff it will be a really nice relaxing game.
The UI to me looks good .
I really hope it is relaxing - Knights of Honor should be relaxing but it has only made me get hyped 😎
Quote from: Gusington on December 15, 2022, 01:53:18 PM
I really hope it is relaxing - Knights of Honor should be relaxing but it has only made me get hyped 😎
:)
When you dig a little deeper let us know what you think. I'm on the fence with this one.
KoH 2 is definitely not as relaxing as I thought it was going to be however it is still not too difficult to understand and play. I love it!
Quote from: W8taminute on December 15, 2022, 03:14:57 PM
When you dig a little deeper let us know what you think. I'm on the fence with this one.
KoH 2 is definitely not as relaxing as I thought it was going to be however it is still not too difficult to understand and play. I love it!
Will do. Intend to give master of Magic a roll tomorrow morning.
Am having an absolute blast with KoH2 as well. My current playthrough with Scotland is still going well once I crushed the inevitable rebellion in Dublin ! For a confirmed turn based strategy fan it is far more managable than the Paradox stuff for me.
^Haha!
Yes I can't stand Paradox games anymore. KoH2 seems to have simplified the formula enough to make it easy to manage an empire while hitting that sweet spot of not overwhelming complexity. All in a realtime setting. Something I don't really like being a fellow TBS'er as most of us here.
Well I gave MoM a spin but have for the first time in a long while got a refund.
I found the game quite unresponsive and not sharp in responding to mouse clicks. Seems done on a tight budget to me.
A shame.
That doesn't sound promising.
Quote from: devoncop on December 15, 2022, 04:28:38 PM
Well I gave MoM a spin but have for the first time in a long while got a refund.
I found the game quite unresponsive and not sharp in responding to mouse clicks. Seems done on a tight budget to me.
A shame.
What are your system specs? The game plays just fine to me.
Unresponsive, that's weird. Maybe it needs an optimization patch or three.
Quote from: al_infierno on December 15, 2022, 06:54:05 PM
Quote from: devoncop on December 15, 2022, 04:28:38 PM
Well I gave MoM a spin but have for the first time in a long while got a refund.
I found the game quite unresponsive and not sharp in responding to mouse clicks. Seems done on a tight budget to me.
A shame.
What are your system specs? The game plays just fine to me.
It's a pretty much brand new PC , 16 GB Corsair Vengeance, Geoforce RTX 3060, Intel I7 3.6Ghz 8 core CPU and 500GB SSD.
The game DID work but it was a bit slow to respond to the right click move commands and to me just felt (as Gus suggests) under optimised .
Others don't seem to have an issue so it's just one of those things.
I am confused by the bad press this game has gotten. I am enjoying it and WILL definitely replay it many times. I note that only 25% of the people who have the game on Steam have played it long enough to get the achievement for researching even one spell, yet so many feel competent to trash it.
And the game is really quick for me, no lags anywhere. I cannot imagine what caused that. but I can understand the frustration.
I recently bought it with my anniversary coupon.
For me, the game is just a rehash of what has been done before, and at a price point that is high. It plays OK, but I can't help but feel I have played this game before.
20 years ago it would have been on the top of the heap. Today, it is just one of many IMHO.
I do understand the responsiveness point. There is nothing wrong with it per se...but it does feel just a little sluggish compared to more recent games. Hard to put my finger on...but I felt the same way.
As I've said before many times, including probably upthread (since I started it ;) ), back when devs were having the devil of a time trying to remake MoM-but-better, I'd be all for a modern remaster of MoM because it was the only Mom-style game that worked.
But now we have such games which work with extra sauce (like AoW3 or even AoW:SM, or Deity Kings for a low-tech alternative), plus weird MoM variants like the Dominions series (and the closely related Conquest of Elyseium) which do the basic concept VERY differently. Plus MoM itself still exists with upgrades, and still works on modern computers as Matrix itself sells.
I'm sure I'll get it sometime, and I certainly don't begrudge it being made. But neither am I in any hurry to do so anymore. :undecided:
I was waiting to use my anniversary coupon to purchase it as it did not seem to be the next MOM I wanted (which was more modernized and updated with bigger maps and more than just 4 players) but I am going to give it a chance at half off now from Humble Bundle.
This new Explorminate review also helped:
Ok after playing it all night I can say I'm addicted so far so I can recommend. I do like it better than the original MOM. The graphics are obviously better as well. I think they have done a nice job. Really enjoying it so far glad I gave it a chance. Definitely worth it for $20.
Oh, HB has it at $20? I shall definitely consider that!
The only issue I have found so far is city spam. They should be able to rectify that. Other than that I have had great fun being forced to make some strategic decisions. There are simply never enough resources to fund everything and you have to make some commitments not only to who you can fight and where, but whether to go all-in on the mastery spell.