Just when you thought 2022 couldn't get more chaotic...
Nationwide arrests in Germany over plot to overthrow the German Government.
Holy Moses...can we not call it an attempted...'putsch'? History just keeps on rhyming. This is nuts.
Doesn't seem very realistic to me. I love how they already spin them as "terrorists" though. Maybe they are, but it's certainly a powerful term meant to discredit and justify extreme measures.
52 people are accused to belong to this cell. 25 of them were arrested including:
A former member of parliament (AFD) and current judge in Berlin
A retired Colonel and founding member of the elite Bundeswehr special forces unit "KSK"
A current logistics officer of the elite Bundeswehr special forces unit "KSK"
Serving and retired soldiers and cops
But yeah, seems pretty delusional to think this would actually accomplish anything. Presumably they believed the military and general public would side with them?
60 Minutes did an in-depth piece about a year ago (I think) on how German special forces, police and regular army have been 'riddled' with these types for years.
Quote from: Gusington on December 07, 2022, 12:47:37 PM
60 Minutes did an in-depth piece about a year ago (I think) on how German special forces, police and regular army have been 'riddled' with these types for years.
They claim the same thing about the US Military. Some stupid Marine draws a bunch of dicks in the shape of a swastika on the wall in a portable toilet and its treated as a domestic extremist incident.
There are those types all over the place but usually they are too stupid to be a threat to anything, IMHO.
I get the same vibe with this story in Germany but there is a slightly more serious undercurrent, even if the sheer number of these people amongst the rest of the population is tiny.
^No doubt that an organized plot involving former members of government, judges, high ranking military officers and specialized military forces could represent a serious threat to the current regime. Again, without knowing the facts regarding intentions, motivations and commitments, I think its premature to label them as "terrorists" or classify the group as a credible threat actively engaged in plotting a coup. Regrettably, i do not follow German politics.
I do, as an admitted amateur, only because I find German politics interesting if not overly complicated. And from a historical angle.
Ok, I feel like I'm reading a Bond novel
According to Sky News the ringleader was Heinrich XIII, a descendant of the old German Monarchy.
The German news site Bild reports he was in contact with a Russian known as "Natalia A" and was negotiating with the Russians for immediate recognition of the restoration of the German monarchy and a mutual defense treaty separate from NATO.
Heinrich XIII is the monarch recognized by the Reichsburger movement, which is a pro-imperial, pro-military restoration group that has been noted in its calls for and incidents of violence.
This is wild.
:o
wow
Hohenzollerns?
Well at least we can be sure they aren't Nazis... ::)
Also, photos of Natalia might be useful.
In case she tries something else elsewhere.
:coolsmiley:
Quote from: SirAndrewD on December 07, 2022, 03:00:46 PM
Ok, I feel like I'm reading a Bond novel
According to Sky News the ringleader was Heinrich XIII, a descendant of the old German Monarchy.
The German news site Bild reports he was in contact with a Russian known as "Natalia A" and was negotiating with the Russians for immediate recognition of the restoration of the German monarchy and a mutual defense treaty separate from NATO.
Heinrich XIII is the monarch recognized by the Reichsburger movement, which is a pro-imperial, pro-military restoration group that has been noted in its calls for and incidents of violence.
This is wild.
If he has a fluffy cat...that he pets as he thinks about his diabolical plans...I think I'll just start laughing and not be able to stop...except this is real...I think?
Quote from: JasonPratt on December 07, 2022, 03:05:51 PM
Hohenzollerns?
Well at least we can be sure they aren't Nazis... ::)
House Reuss apparently. That's the last active branch of the old line.
ABC reports that he's been arrested as well, and there's no indication that the Russians had made any firm agreements to the ringleaders proposals. It seems by reports (also ABC) the Reichsburgers reached out to the Russians, not vice versa.
Disney Princess Natalia (sort of):
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/disney/images/8/87/Natalia_Rambova_4.jpg)
Be on watch.
https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/Natalia_Rambova
I think we all knew before knowing that somewhere, Russians were involved.
Makes sense for them to be. A coup by a group this fringe would need some outside support to even have a chance to succeed.
Even if the Russians didn't agitate it, and there's no evidence either way on that yet that's being made public, they would be foolish not to try to benefit from it if it happened in some way.
We'd do (and have done) the same in reverse.
Quote from: SirAndrewD on December 07, 2022, 03:12:31 PM
Quote from: JasonPratt on December 07, 2022, 03:05:51 PM
Hohenzollerns?
Well at least we can be sure they aren't Nazis... ::)
House Reuss apparently. That's the last active branch of the old line.
ABC reports that he's been arrested as well, and there's no indication that the Russians had made any firm agreements to the ringleaders proposals. It seems by reports (also ABC) the Reichsburgers reached out to the Russians, not vice versa.
Is this the same guy who earlier (this year? last year?) was trying to get back assets and land lost to the family when Wilhelm abdicated in 1918? I can't seem to find the story anymore to check.
Color me a history nerd :nerd: but this is fascinating. If you can find that 1918 link I would love to read it.
Quote from: ArizonaTank on December 07, 2022, 03:42:52 PM
Is this the same guy who earlier (this year? last year?) was trying to get back assets and land lost to the family when Wilhelm abdicated in 1918? I can't seem to find the story anymore to check.
Not sure. I'd barely even heard of this guy till today.
Seems in line with something he'd do though.
The Reichsbuerger's believe Germany ceased to exist post World War 2 and is controlled by the Anglo Deep State in London.
The monarchists in their movement believe the Empire never actually legally went away and that Germany has been occupied and dominated illegally by Western interests as far back as 1918.
Heinrich isn't actually royalty anymore and the Reuss family has rejected him and his ideas and claims. They recognize his eldest son as their head of household and they make no claims to official royal title or authority.
Again with the Anglospiracy?
Quote from: SirAndrewD on December 07, 2022, 04:12:27 PM
Quote from: ArizonaTank on December 07, 2022, 03:42:52 PM
Is this the same guy who earlier (this year? last year?) was trying to get back assets and land lost to the family when Wilhelm abdicated in 1918? I can't seem to find the story anymore to check.
Not sure. I'd barely even heard of this guy till today.
Seems in line with something he'd do though.
OK, found it...2019 story. Different guy... Georg Friedrich Prinz von Preußen
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/22/germany-kaiser-wilhelm-hohenzollern-family-prussia/ (https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/22/germany-kaiser-wilhelm-hohenzollern-family-prussia/)
Listening to a podcast now where they are going over Louis Napoleon III and getting a kick out of this.
This all sounds absurd. It looks like nothing more than an attempt to suppress and criminalize some political dissent and some particular political views deemed a threat to those in power.
Quote from: solops on December 07, 2022, 08:32:39 PM
This all sounds absurd. It looks like nothing more than an attempt to suppress and criminalize some political dissent and some particular political views deemed a threat to those in power.
Let's not get into the "political views" part of the argument. C:-)
Thanks AT, I actually think I did read that article back when it was published. Very interesting, in a dark way.
Well you know which way the wind is blowing when they are handing out the jack boots and brown shirts
I think the political views part of the argument is quite pertinent. The groups the government is accusing of being terrorists actually opposed the Covid Mandates and lockdowns by the government and organized protests against them. The government has a clear interest in discrediting them and intimidating others who might agree with them. Such a far-fetched plot to return the Monarchy to power strikes me as ridiculously false. I can't imagine anyone who would think it could actually succeed. But, it should be good for some great, bad jokes going forward. :hide:
Quote from: Sir Slash on December 07, 2022, 11:01:22 PM
I think the political views part of the argument is quite pertinent. The groups the government is accusing of being terrorists actually opposed the Covid Mandates and lockdowns by the government and organized protests against them. The government has a clear interest in discrediting them and intimidating others who might agree with them. Such a far-fetched plot to return the Monarchy to power strikes me as ridiculously false. I can't imagine anyone who would think it could actually succeed. But, it should be good for some great, bad jokes going forward. :hide:
But this begs the question of what "political views" you're referring to, which is inherently an R&P discussion and not allowed.
indeed.
I take back everything I said. It is quite obvious that this is all related to the ongoing rivalry between peanut butter and hazelnut spreads.
Yes. I have the munchies.
Quote from: solops on December 08, 2022, 03:06:48 AM
I take back everything I said. It is quite obvious that this is all related to the ongoing rivalry between peanut butter and hazelnut spreads.
Nutella is the bomb.
I love you guys for keeping it civil.
Back on topic, I wouldn't be surprised if Russia did have something to do with this. It's crazy right now in Europe so who knows?
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on December 08, 2022, 04:14:17 AM
Nutella is the bomb.
Troof.
-big ol' spoonful of Nutella and Honey Peanut Butter = breakfast for me sometimes
How many Kaisers does it take to screw-in a light bulb? Only one, but you have to have 12 other guys named, 'Heinrich' to go ahead of him. :hug:
Russia habitually throws a ton of pickle-slices up in all directions to see if any will stick on windows, and if so for how long.
So, sure: "Natalia A" could be real. But "she" doesn't necessarily mean anything about actual Russian plotting. First, open up opportunities, then if they stick try something if you get the chance. Meanwhile your enemies have little clear idea what you might be up to -- because you aren't necessarily up to anything on any given ploy.
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on December 08, 2022, 04:14:17 AM
Quote from: solops on December 08, 2022, 03:06:48 AM
I take back everything I said. It is quite obvious that this is all related to the ongoing rivalry between peanut butter and hazelnut spreads.
Nutella is the bomb.
So true. But, for some reason,2 out of three of my kids like peanut butter.
Quote from: JasonPratt on December 08, 2022, 12:03:26 PM
So, sure: "Natalia A" could be real. But "she" doesn't necessarily mean anything about actual Russian plotting.
AAAAND, surely it did not escape notice of the similarity between "Natalia A" and "Nutella"!
Quote from: solops on December 08, 2022, 12:15:49 PM
AAAAND, surely it did not escape notice of the similarity between "Natalia A" and "Nutella"!
According to DW the Russian national they have in custody is Vitalia B. so not as cool as the previously misattributed name.
I prefer Natalia A. as well. Sounds hotter. (I dated a Russian named Natalia in college, total freak) The two names sound fitting for some adult oriented cinema.
The Russians today denied she had any connection to the Russian government and her visits to the Russian Embassy in Berlin were unrelated to the arrests and charges.
The German Federal police said they expect at least 50 more arrests and two arrests were made outside Germany. Their next phase of investigation takes them to Heinrich's home in Thuringia.
Allegations are that Heinrich had been organizing the plot at his Golf and Hunting Lodge which he renamed the "Princely Hickory Golf Club Reuss." Many of the arrested were regular visitors there.
The Reichsbürger movement dates back as far as 2009 as a conglomeration of pro-imperial movements that have their origins in the 70's and gained prominence when they attempted for form militias and stockpile weapons. That led to their labeling as a terrorist group in 2016 police investigating a weapon stockpile in Reuden were ambushed by a Reichsbürger leading to one officer being killed and two wounded.
In 2017 Heinrich sued the German government for loss of finances due to appropriation of art and cultural assets and won €3.1 million. He used that money to grow lodge and tried to form a people's militia in 2018, which was thwarted when German police siezed a shipment of illegal weapons in Höxter along with literature for members describing the coming "Day X".
In 2019 at the World Web Forum in Zurich, Heinrich had a speech where he demanded the dissolution of the false German government and restoration of the monarchy, which led to him to be booed off stage. Twitter savaged him with quite a few mockingly declaring him Heinrich XIII, a title the Reichsbürger's quickly adopted.
To be a member of the Reichsbürger's you must get an Imperial Passport that acknowledges Heinrich as the head of state along with Imperial ID cards. The German police say that their membership in 2019 was small, only around 8000 with 2000 or so that they felt were armed based on gun registration records. Residents in Thuringia report they received mailings recently that said they would soon be required to report for the issuance of valid Imperial passports. Their complaints was confirmed by the mayor of Bad Lobenstein.
Heinrich's son was interviewed today and described his father as a confused old man that bought into conspiracy theories. He has strong delusions of grandeur that were fed by people that deliberately were getting close to him to use him for their own radicalized ends.
There's other stuff about them post 2020 but that seems a prickly subject so I'll avoid it. All I'll say from my reading is that they used the events of that year to greatly expand their tent and membership. That and the recent war in Ukraine allegedly had convinced some of their leadership that the environment was becoming favorable for them to stand some chance of success.
And honestly, color me surprised. I really had no clue there was a monarchist movement in Germany let alone that there was an actual pretender with an even small following.
Based on the info I'd imagine their chances of pulling this off were only slightly larger than a snowball's chance in Death Valley.
Quote from: SirAndrewD on December 08, 2022, 02:13:39 PM
Based on the info I'd imagine their chances of pulling this off were only slightly larger than a snowball's chance in Death Valley.
This whole thing reminds me of Aaron Burr's (yes, the guy who shot Alexander Hamilton) 1806 "plot" to use a bedazzled rich guy on Blennerhassett Island in the Ohio River to stage a rebellion and according to some sources name himself Emperor.
I suspect Burr's chances were only slightly better than Heinrich XIII's...although Burr does seem to have had at least the ear of the top US Army general at the time.
https://www.history.com/news/aaron-burrs-notorious-treason-case (https://www.history.com/news/aaron-burrs-notorious-treason-case)
I feel bad for the guy. Growing-up named, 'Heinrich' you know he was called, 'Heine' most of his life. :hide: That would make me want to overthrow somebody.
Quote from: Sir Slash on December 09, 2022, 01:53:42 PM
I feel bad for the guy. Growing-up named, 'Heinrich' you know he was called, 'Heine' most of his life. :hide: That would make me want to overthrow somebody.
I'm 100% sure the oversexed alcoholic British super spy that thwarted his plans called him that after he beat up his pickelhaube flinging henchman.
Also pretty sure he had a three way with Natalia and Vitalia afterwards.
Quote from: SirAndrewD on December 09, 2022, 02:09:01 PM
Quote from: Sir Slash on December 09, 2022, 01:53:42 PM
I feel bad for the guy. Growing-up named, 'Heinrich' you know he was called, 'Heine' most of his life. :hide: That would make me want to overthrow somebody.
I'm 100% sure the oversexed alcoholic British super spy that thwarted his plans called him that after he beat up his pickelhaube flinging henchman.
Also pretty sure he had a three way with Natalia and Vitalia afterwards.
Mein Gott! (drops monocole in shock)
It's always the one you least expect isn't it?
"We've just uncovered a plot to overthrow the President"
"ZIS IS PREPOSTEROUS!"